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Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,376
I think the fundemental idea behind UBI is flawed. Compared to 10, 100, 1000 years ago the amount of automation is astronomical but yet we are very close to "full employment" in many western countries? How can this be? If the idea that automation = lost jobs then we should be seeing the number of people employed go down! Then why is it going up?! Maybe because automation creates different jobs and moves jobs to different areas? Automation lowers the price of things which allows more people to access it and that creates more jobs to service those people and the extra sales it provides. Also automation lowers costs which means people get richer and they have more disposal income to spend on entertainment and other trivialities, which again creates jobs in those industries.
We need tax money to pay for roads and allow for health care, disability and other spend information for the common good. We need to encourage automation and reduce income inequality by increasing minimum wage. This means the people who are employed are doing useful work and forces innovation spending and the winners will have more money that can be taxed.

Full employment is more of a term referring to developed industries; the reason India is a developing economy compared to America, for example, is many of the industries we have are more developed and "mapped out" shall we say.

What those numbers overlook is a rise in precarity. Sure, unemployment numbers look like they're doing down and we take that as a good thing, but when nearly 40% of Americans have a net worth of >$24,000 due to their low incomes? When nearly half the country is so poor that childbirth is covered by Medicaid? When nearly half the population cannot afford a $500 emergency fee? There's much more than employment numbers at play here.

The issue of automation in a looming-future sense is we're creating self-learning technology, meaning for the first time, human beings will not need to be the minds and bodies of labor production. This can likely implode the entire system because we've linked survival value to being part of the economic machine as we presently are. Linking this point to your remarks on a minimum wage, do you think companies like Uber, Walmart, and Amazon want to raise the wages of their workers when they're outright investing in tech which its fundamental goal is to eliminate 85% of the people who work for them? You now have a seesaw situation, and in neoliberal economics, this becomes zero-sum: someone wins the whole thing, and the other is thrown aside.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
Yeah it is pretty weird that a pretty solid percentage of the richest people criticizing benefit programs probably do less work than you have to do to actually keep getting those benefits as a poor person.
 

Candescence

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,253
Automation is just another word for "technology advancement", you are way over estimating the effect of automation. First of all, it will affect manufacturing industry way sooner than service industry. Since US barely has any manufacturing industry, it's not going to matter that much except the truck drivers.

Secondly people/society will simply find ways to slow down technology adaptation just because. Case in point, we already have working remote work from home tech, but there are still very small percentage of work force working remotely, out of people who *can* work remotely. One of the reason is there is no politically will to push it, or make laws to incentivize it.

Automation in this country will be adopted as fast as high speed train, mark my words.

Also, the Scandinavian countries will find out UBI doesn't work, don't worry about the experiment part.

You can't be possibly under the delusion that automating as many jobs as physically possible isn't the wet dream of every corporation out there, right? They are going to try and get to that point as fast as possible.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
people who stay in bed all day are depressed.

what makes you think UBI would make people stay in bed all day?
is the only reason you get out of bed in the morning is to go to work?
Indeed. If anything, a UBI would make me more motivated to get out of bed, knowing O have that safety net to fall back on while I pursue the things that I'm the most passionate about. It would give me every reason in the world to get out of bed.

If getting paid is how you can afford basic human rights then people definitely should be paid for being alive.
This is a very well stated summary of how I feel about the topic.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Exactly my point.

By incentivizing people to see the doctor, to get treatment, to perform personal developmental tasks you are helping people avoid that trap or dig their way out of it.

Pay people to go to school, to exercise, to be active, to go to the park, to eat more vegetables and fruits, to socialize with others, to stay sober. Those I fully support. That will improve society and people's lives far more than a UBI.
Just paying people money already does this.

Yes, some people will sit around. But they would've done that regardless.
 

Totakeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,673
Why not both?

If people want to work then let them work even if it's useless work. All these are welfare anyway, giving people a safety net is more important than making sure work is productive.
 

Deleted member 10551

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,031
I agree with Joe Biden's perspective that preventing someone from working takes away their sense of purpose. I can't support any basic income proposal that doesn't account for this somehow, as it's a fundamental problem that such proposals would introduce.

UBI opens up working to those who want to do it, they'll have a safety net. It's up to the individual to find their sense of purpose, and not to waste their UBI (state should intervene in cases of mental/psychological incompetence)
 

Bakercat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,154
'merica
All I can say is as a person going to school to help people and children with mental illness, I would love to be able to take care of people without having to worry about clients being able to pay or myself worrying about putting food on the table. There is so much more we could do as a society, but money troubles keep us from doing our best imo. Yeah, there will be those that don't do anything in life, but we already have that in society, so it's not like it'll be something new. I always thought it was stupid to spend over half your life working just to live. I'd much prefer work hours only be half a day or something. I don't think humans were made to do what we do.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
No it doesn't.

You have to incentivize people to lead healthier and more productive lives. Many people don't choose to do so if there is no incentive involved.
The incentive is that UBI is still going to be peanuts compared to working an actual job.

The idea that people will only be motivated if they're faced w/ starvation does not mesh with how the real world operates.
 

sleepInsom

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,569
The incentive is that UBI is still going to be peanuts compared to working an actual job.

The idea that people will only be motivated if they're faced w/ starvation does not mesh with how the real world operates.

This seems like something we already have, and not UBI as others are proposing. On one hand, the OP and others are saying UBI will allow people to livr comfortably to pursue what makes them happy regardless of productivity, and on the other hand you're rebranding our current welfare system which doesn't guarantee a certain level of comfort and is set up to incentive people to get jobs in order make more money.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
This seems like something we already have, and not UBI as others are proposing. On one hand, the OP and others are saying UBI will allow people to livr comfortably to pursue what makes them happy regardless of productivity, and on the other hand you're rebranding our current welfare system which doesn't guarantee a certain level of comfort and is set up to incentive people to get jobs in order make more money.
Incentives for people to make more money is good. The ability to be able to say "no" is also good.

A utopia system where everyone gets paid the same is actively bad.
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464
Adding "Work sucks" undermines any kind of point this person might have.

I say this as a supporter of basic income (which is finally gaining traction in my country, even if i don't think the politician calling for it will be able to pull it if elected).
 

sleepInsom

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,569
Incentives for people to make more money is good. The ability to be able to say "no" is also good.

A utopia system where everyone gets paid the same is actively bad.

Thanks for clarifying. I think I agree with your big picture. People shouldn't have to fear for their livelihood if they lose their jobs or become ill or any number of bad things that can happen in life.
 

riotous

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,320
Seattle
I guess I need to read more but I don't understand how you replace an economy where a huge portion of jobs pay less than what is comfortable to live, with an economy that still has capitalism but a basic income is provided at or above what is comfortable to live.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,214
Why not both? Have universal income while also guaranteeing extra for work? The way I saw it was less about replacing universal income but instead just guaranteeing employment.

Course idk how either would work.
 

PixelParty

User requested permanent ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
345
I think the most likely outcome for humanity is either mass extinction due to our own hubris or a future like the one depicted for earth in The Expanse (both books and television show).

For those who haven't experienced the Expanse, on earth only 15% of the population has jobs. The other 85% is on UBI at a subsistence level due to the resource management required to sustain the earth's population.

The 85% on UBI live a pretty bleak existence as there just aren't enough resources to support anything greater than that.

(I'm not going to to into the Martians or the Belters, as I don't think we are ever getting off this rock.)

I just don't see a way in which UBI isn't the eventual, inevitable outcome without a mass extinction event. And I don't want that to happen, either.

But we as a society and a species are nowhere near being ready for UBI. I don't believe it's going to happen until it is absolutely necessary for the survival of humanity. People are too inherently flawed, too entrenched in their own personal dogmas to make it work.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
This doesn't address automation. If there are only jobs for 70% of people, you need a UBI.



That is a form of UBI, called a negative income tax. One form is exactly what you say; you give every American a tax credit for like $20K, refundable. If you pay no taxes anyway, then you get the money. If you pay some taxes, you'll pay less. If you pay a lot, then you pay a little less.

Good, billing it as a tax break is going to be the better success story there.
 

lowmelody

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,101
The future where automation and AI have advanced sufficiently to make UBI necessary will see the currently disparate and opposed needs of the Economy, corporations and people mutate into a mass human centipede where every movement is almost instantly felt by one another as it becomes in the corporations best interest to see the public full of excess cash to spend. No industry or job is eternally safe from the combination of advancing robotics and AI.

The 'problems' of the future are going to be far stranger than I see mentioned most of the time. It should go without saying that most of the current pros and cons of UBI based on history or traditions where the need for labor and scarcity were most important are hardly adequate.

The slate is basically wiped clean at the singularity anyways. Exponential growth of intelligence that makes Einstein look like a child? fuggedaboutit.
 

Captain Goodnight

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
765
My questions from the previous page went unaddressed. Would someone like to take a crack at them:

How does basic income affect and keep up with cost-of-living prices over the course of time?

What quality standard of living will basic income support? Will that change over time? Who defines that?

How will standard of living possible with basic income be maintained as the human population receiving basic income increases?

What if human population outpaces the output of automated processes?

Most basic question of all:

What if everyone decided to just live off of basic income? How will goods be produced & services be provided? Won't jobs then need to be compulsory? Aren't we talking about enslavement to the government in this scenario?
 

Totakeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,673
My questions from the previous page went unaddressed. Would someone like to take a crack at them:

How does basic income affect and keep up with cost-of-living prices over the course of time?

What quality standard of living will basic income support? Will that change over time? Who defines that?

How will standard of living possible with basic income be maintained as the human population receiving basic income increases?

What if human population outpaces the output of automated processes?

I'm not sure what you're looking for. There's no right answer to your question that can be summarized in a forum post. That's why making policy is not easy.
 

Captain Goodnight

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
765
I'm not sure what you're looking for. There's no right answer to your question that can be summarized in a forum post. That's why making policy is not easy.

If plausible, sensible answers to such questions can't be summarized in a few sentences, then it's likely that a policy of basic income would be neither plausible nor sensible.
 

Deleted member 9486

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,867
I'm strongly opposed to Basic Income personally.

I support a strong social safety net for the disabled, strong maternity/paternity leave, strong support for unemployed people that includes job training, education assistance and help finding jobs etc.

My view is simply that people who are able need to be working and giving something to society. I have no use for able bodied/minded people who just want to sit around and do nothing and live off mine and other working people's dime. There shouldn't be any need for volunteering--that work can be done by people being paid by the government while the assistance programs are trying to find them jobs in the private sector, along with expansion of permanent full time government jobs in public works.

That's just my stance, and not something I'm ever going to budge on. It's not a matter or cheapness as the programs I suggest above would cost more tax money than current plans. It's just the principle for me. If you want money and are able you need to give society something for it. Otherwise you're completely worthless to me. I'm just not an empathetic person and only support the social safety nets I note as I know crime, disorder etc. would be far worse without them rather than out of any caring for others.
 

Totakeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,673
If plausible, sensible answers to such questions can't be summarized in a few sentences, then it's likely that a policy of basic income would be neither plausible nor sensible.

So you're trying to say because it can't all be answered in a forum post, therefore it should not be done?

What do you think all the people running experiments and researching this is doing? Big questions like this don't get answered by people spending a few minutes posting on a thread. If you're really interested in the question and aren't just being disingenuous, I'm sure there's research out there that you can read.
 

saltybeagle

Banned
Jan 20, 2018
221
Who would do the shitty jobs that nobody else wants to do, but is still needed in society, if we had UBI? Terrible idea.
 

Captain Goodnight

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
765
So you're trying to say because it can't all be answered in a forum post, therefore it should not be done?

What do you think all the people running experiments and researching this is doing? Big questions like this don't get answered by people spending a few minutes posting on a thread. If you're really interested in the question and aren't just being disingenuous, I'm sure there's research out there that you can read.

What are forums for if not to summarize research & answers to questions? I've posed some. You seem convinced that they can't be addressed without writing a dissertation or 800 page policy bill on it, but I'm not.

Maybe some other posters on here can take a crack at it. The questions aren't that complicated, but they are very important to answer regarding the plausibility of such a program.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
What quality standard of living will basic income support? Will that change over time? Who defines that?
Healthcare (which should be public regardless of the presence of UBI), shelter, food, education. Yes it will change. The government will have to define it in tandem with academia.

How will standard of living possible with basic income be maintained as the human population receiving basic income increases?
Population growth in developed nations is slowing down, you might not be able to roll out UBI in underdeveloped nations where population growth is the highest but their problems are of a different nature. Currently, the development of automation is on track to outpace industrialized population growth (which is why automation is a looming problem at all) and there's no reason to assume technological advancements will slow down.

What if human population outpaces the output of automated processes?
See above.

What if everyone decided to just live off of basic income?

They won't, in that accepting the most basic level of existence is contrary to human nature. We have the ultra-rich and a capitalistic hierarchy for a reason.
 
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Totakeke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,673
What are forums for if not to summarize research & answers to questions? I've posed some. You seem convinced that they can't be addressed without writing a dissertation or 800 page policy bill on it, but I'm not.

Maybe some other posters on here can take a crack at it. The questions aren't that complicated, but they are very important to answer regarding the plausibility of such a program.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just want simple, hand-wavy answers. So let me take a crack.

How does basic income affect and keep up with cost-of-living prices over the course of time?
By increasing basic income with cost-of-living.

What quality standard of living will basic income support? Will that change over time? Who defines that?
Depends on the precise goal of basic income. Who defines that depends on who gets to implement the policy.

How will standard of living possible with basic income be maintained as the human population receiving basic income increases?
The same way how most countries pay for welfare. Taxation.

What if human population outpaces the output of automated processes?
Then humans produces output again to meet demand.

What if everyone decided to just live off of basic income? How will goods be produced & services be provided? Won't jobs then need to be compulsory? Aren't we talking about enslavement to the government in this scenario?
This what if scenarios is stupid and extremely unlikely. There are a million more issues before "what if everyone decides not to work and no goods are produced" becomes an issue. There will always be balancing factors before it reaches the point where nothing is ever produced. The same way where you don't suddenly end in a situation where you're starving to death and have no ability to obtain food anywhere. You're very likely do something before it reaches that extreme situation.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,268
My questions from the previous page went unaddressed. Would someone like to take a crack at them:

How does basic income affect and keep up with cost-of-living prices over the course of time?

What quality standard of living will basic income support? Will that change over time? Who defines that?

How will standard of living possible with basic income be maintained as the human population receiving basic income increases?

What if human population outpaces the output of automated processes?

Most basic question of all:

What if everyone decided to just live off of basic income? How will goods be produced & services be provided? Won't jobs then need to be compulsory? Aren't we talking about enslavement to the government in this scenario?

Most of these aren't real concerns because we already have minimum wage. UBI just extends that from "people with jobs shouldn't starve" to "people shouldn't starve."

As for the last part, you incentivize things with money like always. People don't stop being doctors just because janitors are guaranteed minimum wages. UBI isn't gonna be six figures; it's to supplement wages for working people and to keep jobless people from starving to death.

Problem there is how do you plan on getting that money to people who don't work?

The IRS already disperses refunds. It's why I favor it as a method since we already have the systems in place for it.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,268
Not on a monthly basis though. People who aren't working need the money regularly. They can't wait for a check at the end of tax season.

Any payment system can be slowed down. Whatever automated pay system we use can just be set to disperse a twelfth of it every month. It's not a difficult problem to solve.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,670
UBJ in conjunction with welfare for those that cannot work due to disability is not a bad idea. The way our neoliberal economy works where government takes a hands off or minimalist approach to investing in and evolving sustainable infrastructure, sustainable energy production, R&D for distruptive technologies in their infancy, and basic scientific discovery is the actual problem. Shifting from neoliberal capitalism to regulated capitalism with an industrial policy would move us in the direction of materializing the next physical-infrastructure-based industrial revolution (sustainable energy and infrastructure) where a broader social safety net policy including UBJ + welfare for disabled/unable-to-work supports that end goal via massive public works projects.

The lack of collective societal foresight in terms of what to build the future into is the fundamental point of stagnation within our society. There should be massive collective effort poured into building out sustainable energy production and infrastructure but there is this tendency to cling to the paradigm of advancing information technology driven by a fossil-fuel-based economy.

The societal need is to balance our current introspective disposition with the extrospective one I outline above.
 
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Captain Goodnight

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
765
How does basic income affect and keep up with cost-of-living prices over the course of time?
By increasing basic income with cost-of-living.

As for the last part, you incentivize things with money like always. People don't stop being doctors just because janitors are guaranteed minimum wages. UBI isn't gonna be six figures; it's to supplement wages for working people and to keep jobless people from starving to death.

Some things that I wonder about:

How does "increasing basic income" and "incentivize things with money" (i.e. just throw more money into the system) reconcile with the finite resources that we have at our disposal?

We could all be given 100 thousand dollars, but the resulting price adjustments wouldn't allow all 300 million of us in the US to purchase present-day valued 100 thousand dollar homes. We could all be given $200 per week, but that doesn't mean there are enough cows to support 300 million of us to then go and have a steak dinner on that $200. We could all be given $10 per week but that doesn't mean that there will be enough grain to sustain every person buying $10 worth of grain products every week, if population rose without bounds because everyone knew that they'd get their $10 to put towards grain and in turn had larger families because the burden was off of them to support them, from a fiscal perspective (yet not from a finite earth resource perspective).

Also, the main argument of how UBI will keep everyone from starving and give everyone the chance to better themselves in a way that is so much better than the current welfare system:

Let's say each person is entitled to $200 per week. What's stopping them from blowing it all on coke & strippers and then lining up on a street during the daytime as a beggar to pick up meal money (instead of the idealized "bettering themselves" argument for basic income)?
 

Oneiros

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,957
Automation is just another word for "technology advancement", you are way over estimating the effect of automation.
I agree with you. Automation will be a very slow process and the technology is just not there yet. I think a lot of people on this site just desperately want life to be like their sci-fi movies lol.
 

Damisa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
324
so why isn't anyone talking about how the "automation apocalypse" doesn't seem to actually be happening?

We have near record low levels of unemployment right now and companies are having problems even finding workers.

Sure some jobs will become obsolete but who knows what new jobs technology will bring? Who would have thought people would be making a living streaming video games online?

Computers and the internet have been around for decades already, shouldn't signs of the "automation apocalypse" been more apparent by now?
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Whether it's "there" yet or "not there yet" is immaterial to the fact that it'll happen sooner or later, and countries will need a plan for it. Coming up with a solution when the disaster is already on you is a surefire way to lose everything.

I mean we have maybe a few more decades before the negative effects of climate change become untenable, that doesn't mean we should wait until then to begin to consider how to alleviate the damage.
 

gcwy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,685
Houston, TX
UBI is inevitable, sooner or later even Republicans will realize people won't be able to keep jobs forever. It's better if we explore this earlier rather than exhaust the alternatives first. Get rid of welfare and implement a truly universal basic income system.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,670
I agree with you. Automation will be a very slow process and the technology is just not there yet. I think a lot of people on this site just desperately want life to be like their sci-fi movies lol.
Also, an issue which no one is even mentioning is that it is mostly mature industrial processes which are being automated, but there is a total lack of capital allocation in relative terms into basic scientific discovery which drives R&D for materializing the next set of disruptive technologies which will rely on immature industrial processes that will be difficult to automate initially, thus starting the automation cycle anew.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
so why isn't anyone talking about how the "automation apocalypse" doesn't seem to actually be happening?

We have near record low levels of unemployment right now and companies are having problems even finding workers.
Was addressed right here.
Full employment is more of a term referring to developed industries; the reason India is a developing economy compared to America, for example, is many of the industries we have are more developed and "mapped out" shall we say.

What those numbers overlook is a rise in precarity. Sure, unemployment numbers look like they're doing down and we take that as a good thing, but when nearly 40% of Americans have a net worth of >$24,000 due to their low incomes? When nearly half the country is so poor that childbirth is covered by Medicaid? When nearly half the population cannot afford a $500 emergency fee? There's much more than employment numbers at play here.

The issue of automation in a looming-future sense is we're creating self-learning technology, meaning for the first time, human beings will not need to be the minds and bodies of labor production. This can likely implode the entire system because we've linked survival value to being part of the economic machine as we presently are. Linking this point to your remarks on a minimum wage, do you think companies like Uber, Walmart, and Amazon want to raise the wages of their workers when they're outright investing in tech which its fundamental goal is to eliminate 85% of the people who work for them? You now have a seesaw situation, and in neoliberal economics, this becomes zero-sum: someone wins the whole thing, and the other is thrown aside.
Sure some jobs will become obsolete but who knows what new jobs technology will bring? Who would have thought people would be making a living streaming video games online?
How many people do you think that employs? And how sustainable is it? As someone who takes an interest in streaming and video content production I strongly believe it's a bubble. And even if it wasn't, it's a career that's generally only open to the middle/upper middle class. None of the most successful long term streamers on Twitch, Ninja, DisguisedToast, Forsen, etc, come from low/below average income backgrounds. When the topic of UBI/UBJ comes up it's generally focused on what will happen to the current lower class/middle class in the near future, aka, the people who're most vulnerable to sudden shifts in automation/global trade.

Computers and the internet have been around for decades already, shouldn't signs of the "automation apocalypse" been more apparent by now?
incomeinequality.gif

d823a614-9e82-11e5-b45d-4812f209f861.img


It is apparent, see above for signs of middle class and lower class stagnation and rise of extreme rich contrasted with extreme poverty. It's just not immediately visible to laypeople, but you can sort of feel its effects in the public space with rising polarization of politics and a general electorate dissatisfaction with the status quo.
 

carlsojo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
33,751
San Francisco
I find it that much harder to want to support a basic income after reading about Captain Couch Potato's thread on living off welfare to smoke weed and play video games.
 

Damisa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
324
How many people do you think that employs? And how sustainable is it? As someone who takes an interest in streaming and video content production I strongly believe it's a bubble. And even if it wasn't, it's a career that's generally only open to the middle/upper middle class. None of the most successful long term streamers on Twitch, Ninja, DisguisedToast, Forsen, etc, come from low/below average income backgrounds. When the topic of UBI/UBJ comes up it's generally focused on what will happen to the current lower class/middle class in the near future, aka, the people who're most vulnerable to sudden shifts in automation/global trade.

It is apparent, see above for signs of middle class and lower class stagnation and rise of extreme rich contrasted with extreme poverty. It's just not immediately visible to laypeople, but you can sort of feel its effects in the public space with rising polarization of politics and a general electorate dissatisfaction with the status quo.

Clearly it makes sense to interpret my post as saying all future jobs will be replaced by Twitch streaming and not to take it as just one example of an unexpected job, and yes I expect streaming to stay.

Income inequality is a problem yes, but it has nothing to do with needing a basic income or not. Income inequality can be fixed with tax rates alone. Basic income advocates usually use the "not enough jobs" argument which I don't think works
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
who knows what new jobs technology will bring
Implicitly assumes that there will be potentially new jobs to replace all the old jobs that will be lost and you just need to look at the industrial revolution to see that's not necessarily the case. It's a pretty big gamble to hedge the very foundation of your economy on unknowns. I gave Twitch as an example of a new job that is limited in scope and, I didn't mention earlier, but extremely hierarchical and tends to funnel viewers/eyeballs/subs to a few streams at the top rather than distributing it among all streamers, which just recreates the problem we have now. Not to mention new audiences tend to gravitate towards top streams so it's a self perpetuating problem.
 

Foffy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,376
Clearly it makes sense to interpret my post as saying all future jobs will be replaced by Twitch streaming and not to take it as just one example of an unexpected job, and yes I expect streaming to stay.

Income inequality is a problem yes, but it has nothing to do with needing a basic income or not. Income inequality can be fixed with tax rates alone. Basic income advocates usually use the "not enough jobs" argument which I don't think works

I actually argue for a UBI because our jobs cult culture is toxic, and if you want real freedom, citizens need a baseline level of emancipatory value outside of the ultimatum shitpit that we've shockingly normalized.

Jobs are the problem. By their very nature they're dualistic -- "real work" versus the "unreal work" -- and it's only been gamified the more we've demanded it.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Basic income advocates usually use the "not enough jobs" argument which I don't think works
Even if you don't believe in "not enough jobs", there are other arguments for UBI like streamlining our bloated and labyrinthine welfare state. Maybe it comes down to our environment but I do not consider "not enough jobs" to be the primary argument for UBI. For me, it typically indicates a humanistic alternative to the current system of barely-checked capitalism.
 

House_Of_Lightning

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
5,048
Problem there is how do you plan on getting that money to people who don't work?

Taking the reply I was responding to at face value:

Those who pay 0 taxes get a check cut to them, those who pay taxes get a check +/- the amount as to what they owe minus additional taxes (?), and those of us who wouldn't get a check would still get a tax cut per pay period.