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wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
*white people and Alexandre Dumas, to be pedantic.

This reminds me of a hilarious thread on reddit where some dipshit was arguing in the literature subreddit that non-white people hadn't contributed anything worthwhile to the literary canon, then cited Dumas as his favorite author.

The pile-on was glorious.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,946
Where exactly is this anger coming from? Its literally just a cover changed to show more diversity.
It's tone deaf in about every way imaginable. They say that they went out of their way to find books with characters that could be of any race and somehow thought that coming up with an AI to do that was better than just asking someone familiar with the classical canon of Western literature to pick them. A lot of these books have really problematic things to say about race, implicitly if not explicitly, in ways that make it seem crazy to push them as part of a celebration of black culture. Then the books themselves basically exist to make money for Barnes and Noble, they would have been better received if some part of proceeds went to a charitable cause relevant to black history month.

This idea could be done well, with better book selections and better messaging but it was not done well here.
 

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
I'd have less issue if all of the artists were black and that does not seem to be the case. Don't be using that "people of color" shit during black history month.

but really all of this can be blamed on JK Rowling and her incessant need to retro actively diversify their white-as-hell stories. We don't have to pretend Ahab or Frankenstein (or their monster) was black. We can make a reasonable ass assumption given the history of the author and the time period in which it released (not to mention the actual narrative of the books themselves)

it's pandering. You don't gotta do all that shit. Or at least don't do it on BHM when I know it's profiting white people at the end of the day
 

faceless

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,198
If the artists commissioned for this are minorities, it serves as a good reimagining of the stories from another perspective.
Also the point was to show that these could be possible ways to interprete the books.
There's an idea behind it but it's really badly executed.
so badly executed that it's detrimental to their cause.
like working really hard and getting an F.
zero credit for their failed attempt.
how many Black people were involved with this idea conceptually?
and not just artists trying to get a check?

Also no one is saying that all books should be by white people, it's just that western history society worked so well it didn't manage to include anything but white authors as classics.
That amount of vitriol for at worst a bad idea isn't warrented, especially when they're already pushing books written by minorities as part of this month's event.
I just don't follow the logic on this one, do you have an issue with non-whites being in a Shakespeare play? They had PoC artists make these cover interpretations of classic tales.
as i said before, the whole thing would have been better if they just stuck with the promoting Black authors part and skipped the recoloring book covers part.
 
Jun 17, 2019
2,182
You know what's pissing me off about this. Two of those books listed, Three Musketeers and The count of Monte Cristo were written by a black author.

Alexandre Dumas was the son of a free man of color, Alex Dumas who was a General in Napolean's army and had, until WW2 and the Nazi's tore it down to use for metal for weapons, a statue in France erected of him. He is who Alexander based the Count on, and actually did end up in jail for crimes he didn't commit, eventually dying at home.


800px-Alexander_Dumas_p%C3%A8re_par_Nadar_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg



Alexandre_Dumas_%281762-1806%29.JPG

That's Alexandre's father Thomas Alex. His mother was a slave in Saint-Domingue, and his father a Marquis. He was educated in France and damn if this man wasn't a bad ass.

Entering the military as a private at age 24, Dumas rose by age 31 to command 53,000 troops as the General-in-Chief of the French Army of the Alps.
Dumas's strategic victory in opening the high Alps passes enabled the French to initiate their Second Italian Campaign against the Austrian Empire.
The French—notably Napoleon—nicknamed him "the Horatius Cocles of the Tyrol"[6] (after a hero who had saved ancient Rome[7]) for single-handedly defeating a squadron of enemy troops at a bridge over the Eisack River in Clausen (today Klausen, or Chiusa, Italy).

If you read the Count's discription you'll see he's noted with having Dark skin, and it's hinted that he may be like Alexandre's father, in that he probably had a non white mother, thus his skin is a darker tone in the novel.

I don't see why the books had to be canceled. Seriously.
 
Jun 17, 2019
2,182
Yeah there's like a solid page of them talking about how effective beating their servants is. That being said, it's not entirely clear how sympathetic the Musketeers supposed to be. They're much bigger arseholes in the book than in any adaptation. For all the're talk of being noble gentlemen, they'll lie cheat and steal at pretty much any given opportunity that isn't a duel. Frankly their main redeeming feature is their undying loyalty to one another.

I don't know how much of Dumas' opinion you can take from that. The books were set more than 200 years before the time of writing, and satire isn't anything new.

Lackies are a class thing, the whole thing about the Musketeers seems to be he's was mocking the hell out of the whole adventure genre that was going on in France at the time and showing how men like the these dudes would be. It only was when he got to the Iron Mask that we see a difference in maturity in his writing. That's sort of the point of the whole thing, regarding the cheating, lieing and stealing, it's showing that the whole "Heroic" type is just a bullshit excuse to get away with a lot of shit becuase you're part of the whole class status thing.

It was sort of a call out too to the Rich french nobles of the time who seemed to happily ignore their past the same way the Victorians turned Knights into these heroic virtious champions when they weren't.
 

DrForester

Mod of the Year 2006
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,709
You know what's pissing me off about this. Two of those books listed, Three Musketeers and The count of Monte Cristo were written by a black author.

Alexandre Dumas was the son of a free man of color, Alex Dumas who was a General in Napolean's army and had, until WW2 and the Nazi's tore it down to use for metal for weapons, a statue in France erected of him. He is who Alexander based the Count on, and actually did end up in jail for crimes he didn't commit, eventually dying at home.


800px-Alexander_Dumas_p%C3%A8re_par_Nadar_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg



Alexandre_Dumas_%281762-1806%29.JPG

That's Alexandre's father Thomas Alex. His mother was a slave in Saint-Domingue, and his father a Marquis. He was educated in France and damn if this man wasn't a bad ass.

Entering the military as a private at age 24, Dumas rose by age 31 to command 53,000 troops as the General-in-Chief of the French Army of the Alps.
Dumas's strategic victory in opening the high Alps passes enabled the French to initiate their Second Italian Campaign against the Austrian Empire.
The French—notably Napoleon—nicknamed him "the Horatius Cocles of the Tyrol"[6] (after a hero who had saved ancient Rome[7]) for single-handedly defeating a squadron of enemy troops at a bridge over the Eisack River in Clausen (today Klausen, or Chiusa, Italy).

If you read the Count's discription you'll see he's noted with having Dark skin, and it's hinted that he may be like Alexandre's father, in that he probably had a non white mother, thus his skin is a darker tone in the novel.

I don't see why the books had to be canceled. Seriously.

I am currently reading the Count of Monte Cristo again, and while I knew Alexandre was of African decent, I did not know all that about his father.
 
OP
OP
collige

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
If you read the Count's discription you'll see he's noted with having Dark skin, and it's hinted that he may be like Alexandre's father, in that he probably had a non white mother, thus his skin is a darker tone in the novel.
I don't have the text on hand to verify, but this Quora answer says it's explicitly not the case:

The other thing with Dumas/the Count is this: We know Dumas experienced discrimination himself and we know that he's brought that into his writing , so the idea that he would write a character with the same complexion as him with no one saying anything the entire time is kinda silly. Even sillier when you consider that the concept behind this project was that he can be any race the reader wants, not just black.

This reminds me of a hilarious thread on reddit where some dipshit was arguing in the literature subreddit that non-white people hadn't contributed anything worthwhile to the literary canon, then cited Dumas as his favorite author.

The pile-on was glorious.
lol, I wish I could find a screenshot of this
 
Jun 17, 2019
2,182
Yup, he's an interesting man. Some facts from Wiki...


  • Dumas's name is inscribed on the south wall of the Arc de Triomphe.
  • In 1913, a statue of General Dumas was erected in Place Malesherbes (now Place du Général Catroux) in Paris in Autumn 1912 after a long fundraising campaign spearheaded by Anatole France and Sarah Bernhardt. From the moment of its installation until some time after July 1913 the statue was covered by a shroud due to the difficulty of the numerous governmental agencies involved to reach agreement on the modalities of its official inauguration. It stood in Place Malesherbes for thirty years, alongside statues of Alexandre Dumas's descendants Alexandre Dumas, père (erected in 1883) and Alexandre Dumas, fils (erected in 1906), as well as one of Sarah Bernhardt. The Germans destroyed it in the winter of 1941–1942, and it has never been restored.[92]
  • In 2009, a sculpture in his honor, made by Driss Sans-Arcidet,[93] was erected in Paris, Place du Général Catroux (formerly Place Malesherbes). Representing broken slave shackles, it was unveiled on 4 April 2009. The critic Jean-Joël Brégeon has claimed that the symbolism of the statue was not appropriate because, apart from his noble upbringing, the general had never been a slave.[94] Documents cited above, however, show that his father sold and then re-purchased Alexandre Dumas, disproving this claim. Dumas biographer Tom Reiss has suggested that the monument is inappropriate for other reasons: "In the race politics of twenty-first-century France, the statue of General Dumas had morphed into a symbolic monument to all the victims of French colonial slavery ... There is still no monument in France commemorating the life of General Alexandre Dumas."[95]
  • In April 2009, the writer Claude Ribbe started an internet petition, asking French President Nicolas Sarkozy to award General Dumas the Légion d'honneur.[96] As of February 2014, the petition has gathered over 7,100 signatories.[1]
There's a book about him as well...
The_Black_Count_book_cover.jpg
 

MrMegaPhoenix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
366
Not exactly the same, but it's like if marvel and dc did this with imaginary stories of "what if Wonder Woman, batman and Thor were actually African Americans".

Instead of it making more sense to do canon stories about blade, Natasha irons, iron heart, etc.
 

TheIlliterati

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,782
Meanwhile, racists would probably rather this AI goes through and adds a white description for all of these vague characters who were generally white. Fox News is probably jumping in celebration that this was canceled because how dare they see a black face on a white book. Well, don't worry, we won't.
 

Rust

Member
Jan 24, 2018
1,225
That Wizard of Oz cover is lovely.

(And then I zoom in and see the ruby red sneakers. That's an interesting choice.)
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,635
This feels like a well meaning teacher's idea that just got expanded without anyone going 'hey maybe we should ask someone who isn't white to weigh in.' I remember there being discussions in the past about how people viewed characters in books as they read (since it's fairly uncommon for white characters to be explicitly said to have white skin in writing) and instances like "Hunger Games" where people actively mis-imagined characters that were non-white.

It's frustrating because, theoretically, giving these books new exposure and getting more people reading is a good thing.

Not exactly the same, but it's like if marvel and dc did this with imaginary stories of "what if Wonder Woman, batman and Thor were actually African Americans".

Instead of it making more sense to do canon stories about blade, Natasha irons, iron heart, etc.

They've actually done this already, fairly frequently, and the reactions tend to vary based on how well they pull it off/what specific fanbase the character has. Usually in those cases it's white people complaining, though. Iron Heart is essentially an example of it (I think? I'm more of a DC person so I'm not 100% sure).
 

MrMegaPhoenix

Member
Oct 27, 2017
366
This feels like a well meaning teacher's idea that just got expanded without anyone going 'hey maybe we should ask someone who isn't white to weigh in.' I remember there being discussions in the past about how people viewed characters in books as they read (since it's fairly uncommon for white characters to be explicitly said to have white skin in writing) and instances like "Hunger Games" where people actively mis-imagined characters that were non-white.

It's frustrating because, theoretically, giving these books new exposure and getting more people reading is a good thing.



They've actually done this already, fairly frequently, and the reactions tend to vary based on how well they pull it off/what specific fanbase the character has. Usually in those cases it's white people complaining, though. Iron Heart is essentially an example of it (I think? I'm more of a DC person so I'm not 100% sure).
I meant as a monthly event in February that is meant to highlight African Americans. The various legacy characters that became a different race or gender or sexuality are spread out across the year.

like if this was about women. I'd rather a super girl story, not an imaginary story of superbly if he was a girl. We have those characters already, so it seems a bit "unhelpful" (I think) to just change a cover like that instead of more important things
 

Tavernade

Tavernade
Moderator
Sep 18, 2018
8,635
I meant as a monthly event in February that is meant to highlight African Americans. The various legacy characters that became a different race or gender or sexuality are spread out across the year.

like if this was about women. I'd rather a super girl story, not an imaginary story of superbly if he was a girl. We have those characters already, so it seems a bit "unhelpful" (I think) to just change a cover like that instead of more important things

Oh, sorry, I gotcha.
Yeah, as a Black History Month 'event' that would feel in similarly poor taste.
 

uncelestial

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,060
San Francisco, CA, USA
I think the OP found a clickbaity article that implies they aren't highlighting black authors and they are -- in-store, with a hero image on the front page, and a dedicated section of their site: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/b/celebrate-black-history-month/_/N-1gzs

Not that I'm gonna stan for B&N or not cast a cynical eye but they aren't doing the "black book covers" thing to the exclusion of highlighting black authors. So this criticism doesn't seem to be in good faith.

I think the book covers is just to also put some black faces on what they know are perennially best-selling books which is a nice gesture as well. Imagine being a kid and growing up with a "black version" of these classics. Race isn't specified in many (any?) of those stories, so if you're a black kid reading these for the first time, in your mind's eye everyone would just... look like you. It's great.
 

CJSeven

Member
Oct 30, 2018
780
I don't hate the idea. It's like the James Bond thing, nobody should be able to say these characters have to be white. And even if somebody does, fuck them.
 
OP
OP
collige

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
I think the OP found a clickbaity article that implies they aren't highlighting black authors and they are -- in-store, with a hero image on the front page, and a dedicated section of their site: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/b/celebrate-black-history-month/_/N-1gzs
I first found out about this via this https://twitter.com/elizabethminkel/status/1225043534757203968

Since the article didn't directly reference the AI, I Googled to find one with more detail. That was the only real hit at the time besides a critical medium piece.
 

Starmud

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,443
i like the idea... its a fun pick up for a home library, especially for someone younger building a collection of the classics. reflecting on race in how we identify well known stories/characters largely from the perspective of one race and the importance of casting stories with diversity going forward...
 

DrStrange87

The Fallen
Feb 8, 2018
637
I get the intent behind the covers but it's just weird to do especially when most of the stories the characters are described as white so it's hard for readers to even really picture a black character in the words despite the fact they're on the covers. In that same breath the art IS fire.

Honestly, I would have loved if those covers were instead framed prints that ran for BHM and use some of the revenue to go towards foundations for black youth outreach or something. I doubt I would have bought any of those books, but I want the covers.

But then again, I'm someone whose parents never read them those books specifically because they were white focused and she felt I needed books by black authors about black characters to spark my imagination and creativity to create and appreciate black art and not subconsciously see it as "less than" because society at large didn't see them as "classics" in the same sense those aforementioned books are seen as. I didn't start reading those classics until I was in school and I was able to appreciate them for what they are, and around this time I was creating my own short stories and no subconsciously making my characters white.

With all of that stated, I myself forgot how black focused B&N has historically been on BHM, I saw this and assumed this was what they were doing this year and was like man such a step back from what they used to do.

Lastly on the subject of books during BHM. A few of my recommended readings (focusing on Fiction)

81j9vhU6aIL.jpg


71xZ1yL-NGL.jpg


91WmolJ4xCL.jpg


A1agLFsWkOL.jpg

(I'll always include this because it's so good. I'm nearly done with the sequel and it's even better which is saying a lot as CoBaB is fucking great)

91uQPADO-kL.jpg
It's always hard for me to find a book that will keep my attention. I went to the bookstore today after looking up your recommendations and picked up Children of Bone and Blood. I got to chapter 12 before I put it down the first time. I love it so far! Thanks!
 

Border

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,859
I think you would be hard-pressed to find notable "classic" books from black authors that would be as popular as these and also in the public domain. Part of the reason B&N does all these classic books is because they are valuable, recognizable properties that they don't have to pay for.

Publishing rights for a lot of the most prominent black authors are probably still tied up with a particular publisher or press.
 

Barrel Cannon

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
9,298
why is everyone assuming this is the only thing they're doing for black history month?

i know my store already has 2 tables set up with black authors and stories

I could see how this alone might not be that great but if it's just one part I don't think it's such a bad idea
My thoughts too. Supporting black authors is a must too