Yeah, I think abolish ICE is actually completely fine. It's crystal clear in its meaning enough that you have to be a bad faith actor to misunderstand it. Same with Black Lives Matter.
Defund the police isn't a "strategy" it's a policy demand and an end point for some groups.
And yet:
I'm not arguing that white supremacy isn't real. What I'm saying is that public opinion matters and these shifts in opinion (thanks to the protests), allowed for political action, even if white supremacy was still the norm.
The opposing argument seems to be that we should just do whatever because people are racist. That's a fallacious argument.
Agreed, which is why we should go back to Abolish the Police and stop catering to electoral politics when doing an protest.
Some people advocating for defund the police are actually police abolitionists, others want massive reductions in police funding and for those funds to be funneled towards other programs. This is true of any social movement, there are variations to the belief systems and demands and whatnot. It's no different than MLK and Malcom X both fighting for civil rights and black liberation at the same time with slightly different approaches. There is nothing new about this nor is it some impossible barrier.
Eh, I mean, I think that cutting funding so they literally can't hire as many officers is a pretty direct way to reduce incidence of violence.
Again, reform clearly signals that you dont want police departments abolished. You keep glossing over it but that really matters.
Part of the problem is you can't even get black people on board. The slogan matters to black people because it can mean something we dont want.
The movement contains a spectrum of beliefs and demands just like any movement.
*looks at domestic violence rates among police officers* maybe not this one folks
This is a good point, but arguably it makes things even worse. Lots of people in this thread have advocated that Defund the Police is fine, you just need to explain it to people when they misunderstand. But there is a sizeable contingent who would explain it as something completely different. The messaging is incredibly garbled.
Some people do want them to be abolished though. Those people are not getting on board with 'reform the police' anymore. Reform isn't enough, that's why the demands have changed. Feel free to go tell BLM that they are wrong and that you know better, see how well that goes for you.
Defund planned parenthood and defund the police are different campaigns even if they begin with the same word. Defund planned parenthood has a whole right wing propaganda machine behind it where you know exactly what they want that to conjure in your mind when the term is evoked. Defund the police is attached to its own literature. I think this comparison is disingenuous for this reason
Your point was that politicians should support defunding the police today, despite it's unpopularity (aka lose electinos), because BLM and the Civil Rights Movement/Legisation were at one point unpopular. Action being taken on civil rights after public opinion shifted does not support that argument lol nice try
So I agree with all of this, but it also highlights what I believe really is the single greatest fundamental obstacle to making progress on a huge number of progressive issues: The right wing media will never ever abandon that framing, the centrist media has adopted it for so long that they're not capable of the self examination required to admit they were wrong, and there is effectively no left wing media with anything like national influence. What do we do about the fact that we seemingly cannot get our messaging out via massive channels, while our enemies can? We have been losing the information war for decades.
No, you have it all wrong. We should Refund the Police.
It's because they serve the wealthiest white Liberals first and foremost. You are going to find a lot of racists and classists amongst wealthy whites regardless of who they vote for. Rich white Liberals are mostly fine with how police operate and like their segregated bubbles.
LOL Obama will come out to slow any Black and Progressive momentum for the next two decades.
BLM doesn't get down like that. Even back in the Civil Rights era there was a concern that MLK was too big a figure and that if he were killed it could have a chilling effect on the whole movement.
Welcome to political action, the role of activists is to make demands, the role of lawmakers is to sit down with activists, consider those demands, and craft policy to address their needs. This is a back and forth process that takes a long time and requires constant reassessment and change.
I mean, the strict definition of the word, removed from context, is to "remove funding from". And that's how it's been used in the past. That's what people think it means.
Black Lives Matter Too? We really arguing over how Black Lives Matter is worded? In 2020? You know that right wing outlets will just respond by saying White Lives Matter Too right?
Yes but neither of these things exists in a vacuum and you can not divorce something like "defund planned parenthood" from the propaganda and fear mongering campaign that propped it up. Just the same as you can't divorce "defund the police" from the grassroots campaign and literature that's currently propping it up. People are not fucking stupid. They are capable of understand things when it's explained to them. That's the nature of campaigning and why it's done after all.
I don't think the vast majority of posters here are attempting to deflect from lawmakers (however there is one prosecutor in here who uh...is clearly trying to deflect away from law enforcers because they are one), but when lawmakers and former lawmakers make these statements that is exactly what they are doing, and when people engage in that same type of punditry they are contributing to that mindset even if it is unintentional. I'm not really describing the intentions of people here so much as what the net effect is of these discussions, or what purpose they serve for lawmakers attempting to avoid responsibility for police brutality in their communities under their leadership.
