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freetacos

Member
Oct 30, 2017
13,265
Bay Area, CA
Because when you say Defund the Police the average white person gets scared and reacts because to them, cops are mostly good and protect. Taking their money away, to them makes them think they will be less safe because of it.

Reform the Police, makes sense to the average white person because they agree that Black People shouldn't be killed.

At least I think that's it?
Because when you say Black Lives Matter the average white person gets scared and reacts because to them, all lives are good. Saying Black Lives Matter makes them think that their life doesn't matter.

All Lives Matter, makes sense to the average white person because they agree that all lives do indeed matter

At least I think that's it?
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
Something that could have had a real impact is if the NBA athletes had continued their strike. The problem is that LeBron James went to ask Obama what they should do and Obama told them to end the strike and now he says Defund the Police is a bad slogan, shocker!
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,500
You're basically saying political messaging doesn't matter because you're right. And you ARE right, but if you actually want anything to be done about it, you need to make people understand what you actually want to do about it.

Yes, police reform was so much closer all the decades before defund the police came about. Progress erased. Drats!!!
 

human onion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
105
Let people demand what is right, if politicians want an easier time, that's on them. Obama is just trying to bury the issue.
 

Rockets

Member
Sep 12, 2018
3,010
You're basically saying political messaging doesn't matter because you're right. And you ARE right, but if you actually want anything to be done about it, you need to make people understand what you actually want to do about it.
It's not my job nor is it the job of my fellow brothers and sisters in the movement to focus test better slogans or explain to privileged white folks what defund the police means. They've seen us march and riot for decades and cops have continued and will continue to kill us.

The fact that Obama is more worried about how white people feel about defund the police than he is about the cops killing us everyday in the streets and in our homes is insulting and shows us who he truly is.
 

Scottt

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,211
I'm talking about one specific slogan. So don't go lumping everything else in with that one slogan. They ain't all the same.

Defund the police is a shitty slogan. You're right that no slogan would garner support from a certain non inconsequential percentage of people.

But that's not the point originally raised. Defunding the police is a loser of an issue. Doubly so when you have to have a 20 minute conversation with people to explain that when folks say defund the police what they REALLY mean is....

Retrain the police.
Fund local police.
More community police.
Demilitarize the police.

All of those slogans would still be opposed by some. But all still have a far better chance of reaching more people than defunding them.

And no, I'm not saying police abuses and our lack of reform on that front is cause our slogans are bad. If we gonna discuss this let's set aside the hyperbole...

How does it lose when people support the policy goal once it is explained to them? Why not help the cause by explaining it to others rather than squint from a distance saying "that's not going to work."
 
Oct 31, 2017
6,747
I wish this was all there was to it. And maybe we can get some polling that can speak to if it is true. But some of the biggest pushback I experienced in 2020 over defund the police can from black people that thought it meant there would be no more police in their neighboorhoods, or when they called the emergency line, no one would come. A common position I heard was "I don't want to abolish the police, I want them to stop shooting us." Almost every time the conversation came up around black people in my orbit (friends and family) I spent a good amount of time trying to explain what defund the police meant, and dispel the common reading they got just from hearing it without any context. Once I explained, many of them were like "oh okay, I agree with that" but there continued to be pushback over the phrase, especially since abolish and defund are sometimes used interchangeably, and you might not know what the person means when they say it.

I 100% support defund the police, but based on my anecdotal experience, it will have a really tough uphill climb catching on because of how much energy and time that has to be devoted to just clarifying it's meaning. And this isn't just with white people or people that don't feel threatened by police. People in crime ridden neighborhoods feel alarmed at the messaging too.



I'm not going to lie: I'm not that concerned with your anecdotal evidence.

In my anecdotal evidence, the kind of black person at all concerned about "defunding the police" have some "I'm not like those blacks" issues. People who know the police are a force against black people but are fine with it for whatever reasons.

this is all coming across very "they should have named it black lives matter too", to me. Making dumb excuses for people "not getting it". God forbid people have anything explained to them and retain that information and share it with others; we need PERFECT slogans that also doesn't ruffle any feathers


Meanwhile, there was mass police brutality all over the country THIS year because there were mass protests of police brutality THIS year and people are acting like the idea that police shouldn't have tanks & other military gear is the crazy, not the mass police brutality
 

iareharSon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,940


I understand the sentiment, and Defund the Police and its advocates are 100% on the right side of history. Having said that, all of those messages are 100% clear, concise and self contained though. Abolish Slavery meant to straight up end slavery. Give Women the Vote straight up meant to give women the right to vote. A woman's right to choose straight up meant that it's a woman's body, and she can do with it as she pleases. Black people deserve equal rights meant nothing more and nothing less than what it stated, black people were second class citizens and deserved equality.

Defund the Police can mean a number of things to the various people who parade it, from the thorough dismantling of policing in a pursuit to replace it with something not thoroughly rotten, to diverting resources from police to things like mental health professionals.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,306
New York
I agree with him. The amount of "what they really mean by defund the police..." I have had to do in conversations over the past few months has been frustrating.



Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of bad faith actors who will deliberately misconstrue your message no matter how well you craft it, but "defund the police" is a gift-wrapped rhetorical free kick for the Republicans.

However there are also a lot of people with reasonable intentions who innocently misunderstand the point of "defund the police".

"Demilitarize the police" or "Time to make police accountable" would probably be an easier sell to those people.

.
 

blackw0lf48

Member
Jan 2, 2019
2,940
Obama isn't saying there's a problem with the what the defund the police movement is trying to accomplish. He's saying that the slogan could make it more difficult for them to accomplish it,

It's so frustrating that we can't have a discussion as to whether the slogan itself got in the way of what the movement was trying to accomplish. Any time the critique comes up people are accused of challenging the goals of the movement itself,

I'm for police abolition, but I was super hesitant to use that term on my social media posts, because I thought it would get in the way of me trying to persuade people.

One thing I've learned about messaging is it should convey the overall end goal and vision of what you want. Defund the police is actually taking about the means to that goal, Which is one reason I don't think it's as effective,
 
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Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
I mean I don't disagree but now...how do we abolish ICE? What is the mechanism by which that happens? I'm not being sarcastic here, if we're not trying to get politicians elected to do it, what else are we doing?

I mean, Abolish ICE didn't come about during an election year, it came after the midterms in response to the horrific prison system. The Protests were "abolish ICE" because they wanted the current democratic house to try and do something about it. It was a call to the representatives currently in the House and Senate at the time. Like, I don't recall a lot of Abolish ICE during the election (or, more depressingly, much talk about ICE at all honestly during the election which goes to show how quickly movements last) but the phrase at the time was for that specific moment in time.
 

Armadilo

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,877
When you have to explain what you actually want, that's a losing battle for the misinformation battle that is said in less words
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,268
Something that could have had a real impact is if the NBA athletes had continued their strike. The problem is that LeBron James went to ask Obama what they should do and Obama told them to end the strike and now he says Defund the Police is a bad slogan, shocker!

the nba players are grown ass men who have their own agency and are not beholden to obama, and if they wanted to continue the strike they absolutely could have.
 

Eeyore

User requested ban
Banned
Dec 13, 2019
9,029
I agree with him. The amount of "what they really mean by defund the police..." I have had to do in conversations over the past few months has been frustrating.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of bad faith actors who will deliberately misconstrue your message no matter how well you craft it, but there are also a lot of people with reasonable intentions who innocently misunderstand the point of "defund the police".

"Demilitarize the police" or "Time to make police accountable" would probably be an easier sell to those people.

If these people have the time to have a conversation with you about it, they have the time to do their own research and understand independently what is meant. When they don't do so and argue semantics without engaging on anything more than surface level, it sounds like they have their opinions and they're fine with the status quo.

Doing anything with the police is like doing anything with guns. Any movement, even microscopic in nature, is met with a wall. There is no compromising.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Its not concern trolling to see the confusion around the phrase among the general public and activist circles then suggest coming up with a clearer phrase. If you're with the side that doesnt want to abolish police period, then reform is a better fit than defund.

You're acting like a push to abolish the police system is a small concern that shouldnt give anyone pause. Nobody worried about the consequences of that reality is concern trolling. Especially considering that even after Ahmaud Arbery was murdered, defund proponents were offering neighborhood watches as a security alternative. Fuck that.
That's not some universal position of activists like you are suggesting it is.
Reform is bullshit, it's not a specific demand, which is why local governments have been funneling more money to police departments for decades under the guise of 'police reform'. It has not worked, that's why activists switched tactics. Your solution to this 'bad phrasing' problem you've invented can't be old, worn out phrasing that has been proven time and time against not to be effective.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,602
Yes, police reform was so much closer all the decades before defund the police came about. Progress erased. Drats!!!
Dude, if the individual suggested actions WITHIN defund the police poll highly, you have an actual opportunity to do something about them. But instead they're hidden inside of an idiotic slogan that nearly everyone misinterprets.

You do you, but I'm all for effective messaging. If you wanna turn your nose up at the plebs who don't have time to deep dive research into this shit because they're desperately just trying to get through the day and make ends meet, that's fine.

It's not my job nor is it the job of my fellow brothers and sisters in the movement to focus test better slogans or explain to privileged white folks what defund the police means. They've seen us march and riot for decades and cops have continued and will continue to kill us.

The fact that Obama is more worried about how white people feel about defund the police than he is about the cops killing us everyday in the streets and in our homes is insulting and shows us who he truly is.
I can respect that. It's MY job to find a way to reach white people, because I'm white. So I care about how it sounds to them. It's how to reach them. Dumb as it may be.
 

Pollux

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
940
This is being willfully obtuse and not arguing in good faith.
Believe me when I say this, as someone in the criminal justice system, the police have no business being sent out in the majority of 911 calls. But, you won't get the change you want if you can't explain your position to people who can't figure it out by hearing what your chanting.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,973
How did France get a fascist bill rethought? Enough people were radicalized to protest and they changed it. One of the problems with our country is that the politicians are deeply unpopular but continue to get elected and people do not hold them accountable.
Okay but America doesn't do that. Like I really wish it did. We set one police precinct in Minneapolis on fire. Guatemala firebombed their congress. I completely agree that if we actually, say, tossed molotovs through the windows of Seattle City Hall stuff would escalate in a hurry, but we had an entire summer of unrest and for the most part it was successfully "contained" and even counter-propagandized. Do we just do another 2, 3, 4 years of escalating unrest until we reach that point? If that's what people think has to happen okay we can at least talk about that, but that's not the impression I usually get

You are correct, politicians who are extremely unpopular keep getting elected. I'd go a step further and say that politicians in America generally don't fear their constituents. That sort of breaks most mechanisms of accountability we associate with elected governance. And...now what?
 

Neece

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,200
I don't understand what people find so confusing about defund the police. It's in the name. Reduce the budget allocated to police departments, and reroute that money into non-police services that will reduce crime. Defund means defund.
Based on my conversations, some people legit think it means there won't be anymore police. There is a history in the black community of their neighboorhoods being both overpoliced and underserved. An example being, someone making a 9-1-1 call to report a crime being committed, and it taking forever for the police to show up. This is why black comedians for decades have made the joke about if you need immediate help from the police, say that a white woman is being harmed, and they'll be there in 5 seconds.

I think a lot of black people believe this is what defund the police harken backs to.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
honestly we probs need to come up with a slogan about making america less fasc-inclined, because boy is that an underlying problem permeating most of this country's issues

"Defund the police" would make America less fash. How do you think the fash keep the boot pressed on the next of the people?

There's a political ideology that opposes fascism but I'm not sure if all of you are ready to hear about that yet
 

Xx 720

Member
Nov 3, 2017
3,920
Social services can't even protect abused children, watch The Trials of Gabriel Fernandez on Netflix. He died because when the teachers reported his abuse, the police handed it over to social services. If they had arrested the parents instead, he would be alive today.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
If that's your actual view then that's an accurate slogan. Good luck with that silly shit tho...

Again, the point wasn't to get people elected. It's an extreme opinion meant as a call for attention. While I do want Abolish the police to happen, I am happy to currently settle for its also equal goal of being the most extreme left wing position to move the Overton Window left. With Abolish the Police as the big thing, suddenly things like defund, reform become "compromises" Things like BLM suddenly aren't the most left-wing position and lose their luster as an attack. Not all of it obviously, but it's a start.
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
Something that could have had a real impact is if the NBA athletes had continued their strike. The problem is that LeBron James went to ask Obama what they should do and Obama told them to end the strike and now he says Defund the Police is a bad slogan, shocker!
Obama is a dangerous political figure because people look at him like he's the Black Pope. Those NBA players got played LOL. They gave deference to someone uninterested in our liberation.

Lebron only STARTED reading Malcolm X's book 5 days before meeting Obama. LBJ was not equipped for the moment imo.
 

woman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,532
Atlanta
Well if you wanna talk about policy demands from black activists:

Public Opinion Polls on Civil Rights Movement, 1961-1969 (crmvet.org)









Maybe we shouldn't be tailoring demands around what is popular and instead demand what is right just a thought
As activists are free to do so. I don't have any problem with them. They play a necessary role in bringing issues to the public's attention. But I want politicians who are amenable to change to be in office so things can actually happen. Any politician who runs in a competitive election on Defund the Police is not going to win. I do think there is room for elected officials to demonstrate leadership on issues to influence public opinion, but you don't need to take an extreme (relative to national opinion) position on an issue to do that.

Also, what you neglect with the data you cherry picked is that, at the time, a majority of Americans supported the Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights Act, and the Selma March. Note that the Selma March is what directly lead to the VRA's passing.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
Democrats generally seem to be more interested in compounding right-wing attacks on genuinely leftist movements than defending those movements. Yes, we can defund police and replace them with more effective and less racist/brutal community institutions. Yes, we can give people free healthcare or housing. Yes, we can pay people a universal basic income. Yes, we can do the green new deal and end fracking. The right keeps calling dems socialist communist antifa terrorists regardless of what they do, and each time dems recoil and say "no no we're not socialists, you see we don't actually support [leftist policy] (even though broadly there is support for the goals of the policy from the public)" which inherently frames socialism or left leaning positions as bad. A strategy that they never try is to do what Bernie did, or what AOC/Ilhan do, saying "yes this policy is socialist and it is actually good, here's why". One possible explanations for this could that they don't do this because they fear right wing smears. But the right wing smears them anyway. They just make shit up. Maybe the dems don't do it because they are more aligned with the right wing vision on these issues than the leftist vision? Hmm. It's almost like they like the militarized police, they just want the police to brutalize people less blatantly.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,523
Social services can't even protect abused children, watch The Trials of Gabriel Fernandez on Netflix. He died because when the teachers reported his abuse, the police handed it over to social services. If they had arrested the parents instead, he would be alive today.

Now count all the black people that would be alive today if the police hadn't murdered them for having the wrong skin tone
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,125
Sydney
Slogans build on movements and political narratives. They build.

Initially, Black Lives Matter got a lot of pushback because, out of context, a lot of people (mostly white people) naturally assumed of course they do why are you even saying that. All lives matter.

But incident after incident, captured largely through the modern smartphone, people started to realize (again white people mainly, and not all of them) that indeed black lives did not matter that much in the US, as they were fed an almost weekly deluge of insanely violent police brutality direct to their screens. The slogan become more powerful and the innate political narrative became more and more focused. Thanks to the slogan.

It'll be the same with defund the police. The more people hear it, and the more people see cops running around with their body armour and their tanks and their drones and experimental weapons, the slogan will become more powerful, because more and more people will think "these guys really do have too much money and they are not using it well at all".
 

ExoExplorer

Member
Jan 3, 2019
1,247
New York City
Believe me when I say this, as someone in the criminal justice system, the police have no business being sent out in the majority of 911 calls. But, you won't get the change you want if you can't explain your position to people who can't figure it out by hearing what your chanting.
People are not dumb. Defund isn't some mysterious word that has an obscure meaning. People who say they're "confused" do not care for the agenda itself.
 

Davilmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,265
When you have to explain what you actually want, that's a losing battle for the misinformation battle that is said in less words


Still bewilders me that people honestly believe the issue here is the actual framing or phrasing of a slogan, and people who were never going to give an inch no matter what slogan you used.
 
Something that could have had a real impact is if the NBA athletes had continued their strike. The problem is that LeBron James went to ask Obama what they should do and Obama told them to end the strike and now he says Defund the Police is a bad slogan, shocker!
Like serously, Obama has offered virtually zero help in the fight against police brutality and he's kicking back and offering flimsy advice like we owe something to him.
 

Masterz1337

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,790
This is very true. The reality of forming a coalition of voters is complicated. Though I'm not particularly sold appealing to moderate or republican sensibilities is going to get results here. Defund the police is a "unpopular" but largely necessary demand people are raising, it's bound to ruffle feathers. You can't repackage this idea without watering it down, or going back to the police reform standard that hasn't changed much for decades.
I'm not keen on trying to appeal to these people, or tolerate their racism and/or stupidity for their votes. But there's no way to get those congressional seats otherwise. A top down approach from state or federal government will only further drive those people away.

I'd hope over time people understand what defund the police means, much like they do BLM. But until then it's going to further push some people away and with election stakes so high, I don't think it can be afforded like BLM could under the Obama years.

Also sad to say, if anything good has come out of Trump's admin it's awareness of racism in this country in ways we didn't have so visible or viscerally under Obama. I think that's a huge part of what has helped BLM gain so much popularity, coupled by there were 3 back to back instances of indefensible police brutality in which no hoops could be jumped through to explain "rationally"
 

Deleted member 82064

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 29, 2020
596
it means they want to reduce funding for police departments
I know that but that's not what defund actually means. And if somebody understand defund as completely withdrawing funding from police that's fair.

Especially when you had groups who literally wanted to defund police, not reduce funding.
 

Poppy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,272
richmond, va
love to argue over the minutiae of all this bullshit with politicians or twitter trolls who have zero intent on ever helping with the goal in the first place, who fucking cares
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Believe me when I say this, as someone in the criminal justice system, the police have no business being sent out in the majority of 911 calls. But, you won't get the change you want if you can't explain your position to people who can't figure it out by hearing what your chanting.
Stop being vague about your position in the criminal justice system, be honest about it so people can accurately assess your own motivations in this discussion.
 

Deleted member 75819

User requested account closure
Banned
Jul 22, 2020
1,520
Obama isn't criticizing the slogan because he believes in the cause behind it and wants to improve its messaging. If that were the case, the fuck would just support the movement and expand on it. Period.
 

Mekanos

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 17, 2018
44,163
Something that could have had a real impact is if the NBA athletes had continued their strike. The problem is that LeBron James went to ask Obama what they should do and Obama told them to end the strike and now he says Defund the Police is a bad slogan, shocker!

This tweet went out when that happened and it always gives me a chuckle:



Obama does NOT want to help or fix the issue, he wants to protect his "legacy" and have America maintain its police state.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
The problem is that we're all trying to workshop this into an electable statement. It's not designed to be electable. You aren't going to keep its meaning by making it a campaign slogan. It's a protest slogan.
 

Surfinn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
28,590
USA
I'm not going to lie: I'm not that concerned with your anecdotal evidence.

In my anecdotal evidence, the kind of black person at all concerned about "defunding the police" have some "I'm not like those blacks" issues. People who know the police are a force against black people but are fine with it for whatever reasons.

this is all coming across very "they should have named it black lives matter too", to me. Making dumb excuses for people "not getting it". God forbid people have anything explained to them and retain that information and share it with others; we need PERFECT slogans that also doesn't ruffle any feathers


Meanwhile, there was mass police brutality all over the country THIS year because there were mass protests of police brutality THIS year and people are acting like the idea that police shouldn't have tanks & other military gear is the crazy, not the mass police brutality
I just had the "black lives matter, too" talk with my mom, she's past all lives matter though at least

Defund the police is gonna be past the limit I think
 

Sensei

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,514
i dont think politicians realize that they don't own activists/activism. activists know that they have to do the work to get their ideas heard and understood.

i said it in the last(? i think) thread we had on this but politicians are going to have to get used to activism saying simple things that politicians don't want to deal with, because as things like economic inequality and climate change continue to ramp up, we're all going to be dealing with some crazier, scarier shit than this.
 

Puroresu_kid

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
9,465
Reform the police is horrible and all that sounds like is spend more money to change policing. That's not what activists want and I'm all on board with defund the police.