This is a bad point. Stop trying to make it. What you're basically doing is tone policing and telling black people we can't be angry when our people are murdered.
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Barack Obama on Broad Slogans: "You lose people with 'snappy' slogans like 'defund the police'"
- Thread starter Pekola
- Start date
This is a bad point. Stop trying to make it. What you're basically doing is tone policing and telling black people we can't be angry when our people are murdered.
MAGA literally allows people to mean whatever they want it to since its so non specific
Democrats think that because they offered a feigning interest in BLM when it finally got too big to ignore that meant that the movement owed something to them.
They did the same shit with #MeToo and similarly threw it under the bus the moment that it became inconvenient for their political aspirations (biden getting accused).
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But, black lives matter was initially unpopular. Colin Kapernick initially kneeling for an anthem was controversial. I mean, Obama called the BLM movement thugs. We know they aren't popular innitially. We do them because we need to repeat them until they sink into the public consciousness. We use our anger as its own weapon. People voted against BLM. We are doing this for the long haul. Again, this isn't for elections, its for it to sink in the public consciousness and as a cry for attention.
They lost specifically because of Defund the Police? I thought evidence showed the neither progressive nor centrist views determined the voter outcome?
This would be correct if it were an actual political slogan. But it wasn't. And quite frankly, Defund the Police was a watered down version of the original "slogan": Abolish the Police.
Yes and no. Again, like Defund the Police, it makes perfect sense to those with an ounce of critical thinking, but how many times have you had to explain to people that "Black Lives Matter doesn't mean that other lives don't matter?" I've had to do it more often than I'd like.How Public Opinion Has Moved on Black Lives Matter - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
Was "Black Lives Matter" bad messaging?
It's not whether or not it makes sense, it's whether or not people can get on board with it without having to do any research. Yes, it would be nice if people just inherently weren't complete morons, but if you can come up with some idiotic counter to the slogan in order to be incendiary, then it's going to take a lot more work to be effective.
No, you need to provide that info if you are going to state that that is what lost Dems those areas. You don't get to state something as a fact then be like "no totally bro, it happened, look it up". Naw, provide the evidence dude. Provide the Democrat candidates who ran on defund the police as part of their platform. and lost in swing states.
The fact that "Defund the Police" has to be explained to so many people makes it a pretty weak message. The first reply has examples that play much better to stupid people. It's not great to have to sugarcoat it but the old boomer democrats in my family had to have "defund" spelled out several times in kindergarten terms before they understood what it actually meant. Same thing with younger friends who don't follow politics.
Yeah, I think this is a tough one to argue against given how it has galvanized opposition and sowed division among liberals. No matter what people think it stands for, it's been fairly politically counterintuitive and in many cases inconsequential to increases in many police budgets that happened shortly after the movement caught steam.
I think a huge problem with the term is that it is used as a substitute for a very complex solution problem, yet is tasked with changing the hearts and minds of an electorate which has a short attention span for politics, and like mentioned above, is very open to interpretation.
Think about how comparatively straightforward and uncontroversial "Black Lives Matter" was at face value yet it still caused mass hysteria. Are we that naive to think that people won't read "Defund the police" as "there will no longer be police"? Knowing your audience is key to effective communication.
This is some weak shit from the democratic establishment. Just because turn-out was high for the republicans due to the Trump cult they've gone all coy on progressive agendas. Not like it would've taken much for them to go that way though, moderates generally look for any excuse to throw progressive plans under the bus. Any talk about police reform would be twisted.
Black people exercising their 1st amendment rights and marching on public property against police brutality is already 'easy fodder' for fostering negativity among racists before a single activist even opens their mouth. This framing is, frankly, bullshit.
Yeah, there was some article not too long ago shared on here that things like defund the police, all cops are bad helped galvanize conservatives in some states. Like the slogans are used to point out good points.
Funds need to be distributed in ways which means other services are available so police aren't needed and so that they can't pay off lawsuits with no consequence, and so there are less police who are of higher quality. That's what I take away from defund the police, but others see it as "no more police"
ACAB means to me that policing can't be good if police units allow bad cops to operate freely and with no consequence. Others see it as all cops are killers and thugs in a uniform.
You can see how you lose voters with slogans like those. At the same time, they bring awareness and discussion. But at the same time, it wasn't that long ago Black Lives Matter was viewed as something that was exclusionary and now is accepted as a message that black people don't get justice in this country. The meaning behind the slogan never changed, but peoples understanding did.
Nah. I never said anything about that. But I will continue to say it's a terrible fucking message if you need an interview in MSNBC with Joy Reid to explain that the slogan actually means we should send people other than the police to certain calls and that maybe a cop with a gun shouldn't be going to mental health call outs. But hey, keep trying to tell me I'm tone policing and trying to shut down discussions.
In a district that has been blue since 1949, sorry if I'm not very impressed.
For those saying reform the police. They refuse to reform themselves. They refuse to have anyone but themselves have oversight over their departments. They refuse independent prosecutors. So what's the next step? They work for us. We don't owe them shit. This is a choice they make to be police officers. And before people tell me it's a dangerous job, it's not even in the top ten most dangerous jobs in this country. I'm not saying it's not hard, but they choose this. Unlike George Floyd or Breonna Taylor who didn't.
What do you do to a child that misbehaves constantly? You take away their fucking allowance and try something else.
What do you do to a child that misbehaves constantly? You take away their fucking allowance and try something else.
I bet a ton of liberals start rocking out when fuck the police comes on the radio or pandora but defund the police whoa slow down there now
Obama trying his best to tell us he's not our friend or ally.
What a fucking disappointment he turned out to be.
What a fucking disappointment he turned out to be.
Max Rose? He didn't even necessarily run on it, but it was pinned against him effectively.
Like, real talk, would people have cared if the message was "Reform the police"? Would the media have picked up on it? Black America has run on reform the decades and its eventually ignored. That's why the message went more extreme. It hell, it was more extreme than "Defund the police". Defund the Police was the compromise. The initial phrase was "Abolish the Police".
I'm not saying it isn't? The question is whether the messaging from the slogan is effective, and while yes, black people constantly have an uphill battle when it comes to any sort of equal rights in this country, "defund the police" is very simple to counter with shit arguments that will be eaten up by a large chunk of people.
You know what else is needlessly extreme and scary? Being gunned down by the police because of the color of your skin
Activists are very often the exact worst people to work out how to sell controversial changes to a skeptical electorate.
Getting murdered by the police also sounds extreme and scary so that seems an apt response.
Snappy as in poorly thought out? Because that's 100% the truth considering some insisted it meant only meant defund while many others insisted it was a call to get rid of cops period.
There was no confusion around Abolish ICE as poorly received it was. Yes we can and Make America great again didnt have its supporters divided on the meaning either.
There was no confusion around Abolish ICE as poorly received it was. Yes we can and Make America great again didnt have its supporters divided on the meaning either.
There is no argument that says funding changes cant be a part of police reforms.
Who gives a shit whether you are impressed? She's a powerful, intelligent black woman who made her case to her constituents and got elected by sticking to her values. Who the fuck are you to deride that accomplishment?
No offense but who the fuck cares about "bad messaging"? Dems do not give a fuck about the black community and answering their cries about police violence and brutality over the last what? 50-60 years? Who the fuck is anyone to tell black activists to change their tone if they want change? The Dems have 0 interest in actually addressing the problem. Their opinion is worth less than dog shit.
She won her election. The slogan isn't a "Democratic" slogan, it's an activist slogan. The saying has 0% to do with Democrats.
Sure: You are tone policing and trying to shut down discussions.
It's not that I don't understand what you're saying, but again: that was the voice of the people. This wasn't something "the democrats" came up with, because it's not politically expedient...and it isn't something they wanna do anyway.
Liberals who want to LARP being pundits and wonks instead of actually being part of real change.
Which candidate in a swing district ran on defunding the police?
- Bernie always sucked on police
- Bernie lost who cares
- Should everybody be an unthinking cult taking their cue from Bernie without exercising any independent thought?
Gee I'm beginning to think maybe Obama is a bit shit
Would you have told BLM activists to change their slogan because it was bad messaging?
It has to be "explained" to people to pretend they don't understand it
I get what he's saying? That the phrase itself has been twisted into "end the police."
At the same time, he needs to actually phrase it like that's what he means, instead of making it seem like it's some Dianne Feinstein-style putdown of people trying to survive. On the surface he seems inspirational, but like... when he actually gets to engaging with others who don't fit his model, dude seems kinda cold-hearted and dismissive, and it's always put me off.
At the same time, he needs to actually phrase it like that's what he means, instead of making it seem like it's some Dianne Feinstein-style putdown of people trying to survive. On the surface he seems inspirational, but like... when he actually gets to engaging with others who don't fit his model, dude seems kinda cold-hearted and dismissive, and it's always put me off.
One could even argue that it's important for politicians to help guide public opinion on activist-led issues!
An American citizen who has just as much right to criticize her message as she does to criticize Obama's.
It absolutely is.
What some people's concern is if you lose to Republicans Defunding the police won't happen.
Now I don't know if that will come to pass but I understand the concern. Define the Police is bad as a snappy slogan for a short term thing.
However if it keeps being said, and pushed and understood, it's powerful and people will understand the depth behind it.
That's what Obama doesn't seem to get. Keep it up long enough and everyone knows what it means and the rock the boat knee jerk reaction is still felt as needed too.
I mean, the original message was "abolish the police". People only changed it to "defund the police" when people started complaining exacetly like what's heppening now. And if we did change it do "reform the police", I'd suspect we'd get remarks that it needs to be "help the police" instead. Which at that point, congrats, we've succesfully marketed the phrase to a point where it's the exact opposite of its original meaning.