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Nameless

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,342
Arguments conflating and generalizing open world games, typically using the lowest common denominator(Ubisoft), make my whole body hurt. As if there isn't an absurd amount of variance in design philosophies, mechanics, structure, etc... in and across the open world space.

All this tells me is that the person has a very limited history with or approach towards open worlds.
 

EllipsisBreak

One Winged Slayer
Member
Aug 6, 2019
2,152
"You only like this thing because nostalgia"

No, believe it or not, I do have the completely normal ability to distinguish between old happy memories and product quality. Also, please don't assume I played a game a long time ago just because it's old. It's not always true. When I first played FF7 in 2017 and liked it, it wasn't nostalgia.
 

elbageluno

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 4, 2022
933
"You only like this thing because nostalgia"

No, believe it or not, I do have the completely normal ability to distinguish between old happy memories and product quality. Also, please don't assume I played a game a long time ago just because it's old. It's not always true. When I first played FF7 in 2017 and liked it, it wasn't nostalgia.

This is the main argument that the "Sonic was never good" crowd uses. And its dumb. I also played FF7 for the first time in aorund 2018 or so.
 

waterpuppy

Too green for a tag
Member
Jul 17, 2021
1,816
"Nobody likes huge open world maps with too many things to do!"
I do. :(


Honestly though, I just think that "Nobody likes [thing that you personally don't like]" is just lazy arguing. If you actually explain why you dislike something I respect you and your opinion, if you're just gonna do the strawman "nobody likes this" thing, I find you annoying.
 
Oct 25, 2017
19,040
and return to Crash 3's difficulty.
Going back to the challenge level of the classics would be a bad thing? They overshot 106% difficulty by a long shot, it used to be a more accessible venture than what Crash 4 did. Skewing the difficulty so far the other way wasn't faithful to the IP, Crash was never a hardcore platformer.
 

NuclearCake

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,867
"Fuck cutscenes, I want to play a game not watch a movie!!!!"

Go play Pac Man if you just want to hit start and play.

Cannot stand the "30fps is UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" crowd either, insufferable.

Nah. This ain't it.

There is no good reason why cutscenes can't be skippable in this day and age.

30FPS is unacceptable, it looks like a PowerPoint presentation on modern displays and gives some people a headache. If we still primarily used CRT's i might be able to see your point, but that isn't the case anymore. If the game is only 30fps i ain't buying it.
 

Chumunga64

Banned
Jun 22, 2018
14,230
"Fuck cutscenes, I want to play a game not watch a movie!!!!"

Go play Pac Man if you just want to hit start and play.

Cannot stand the "30fps is UNACCEPTABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" crowd either, insufferable.
i'd rather have cutscenes that I can skip and at least look cool than walking and talking scenes that add nothing to the game except ruin replayability

MGS 4 has like 9 hours of cutscenes but I can skip any time I don't want to watch them and get right back to gameplay
 

Fadewise

Member
Nov 5, 2017
3,210
Calling something related to development "lazy"

Game dev is fucking magic and I'm sure that no dev was ever lazy when people called them that. Time and money constraints, sure. But not laziness

On the other hand, dismissing valid concerns with the the same "time and money" argument. Yes, time and money will always be concerns, but there are often valid deficiencies that devs either don't care about or do not give enough attention to that are so egregious that they SHOULD be called out as poor design or a lack of focus on UX/QoL.
 

ramenline

Member
Jan 9, 2019
1,292
Going back to the challenge level of the classics would be a bad thing? They overshot 106% difficulty by a long shot, it used to be a more accessible venture than what Crash 4 did. Skewing the difficulty so far the other way wasn't faithful to the IP, Crash was never a hardcore platformer.

they mentioned crash 3 specifically because that one was piss-easy compared to 1 and 2.
 

John Rabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,091
"Difficulty modes are destructive/antithetical to an artistic vision and offering them compromises the experience."

No, they don't, you're just gatekeeping out of a misplaced sense of pride. Literally nobody gives a shit if you want to play a game on the hardest mode and allowing people to play the same game at an easier level doesn't change the experience you personally want to have. It just doesn't.
 

Professor Beef

Official ResetEra™ Chao Puncher
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,498
The Digital World
30FPS is unacceptable, it looks like a PowerPoint presentation on modern displays and gives some people a headache. If we still primarily used CRT's i might be able to see your point, but that isn't the case anymore. If the game is only 30fps i ain't buying it.
just proving their point right here by using hyperbole like calling it a powerpoint presentation
 
Mar 5, 2019
557
"You only like this thing because nostalgia"

No, believe it or not, I do have the completely normal ability to distinguish between old happy memories and product quality. Also, please don't assume I played a game a long time ago just because it's old. It's not always true. When I first played FF7 in 2017 and liked it, it wasn't nostalgia.


I need to get around to muting the phrase "rose tinted glasses".
 

MrWindUpBird

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
3,686
Feels like for an enthusiast forum there's a pretty large gap in understanding of basic game development.

Mainly talking evaluating a game's base value on visual presentation alone and little else.

Simple principles of I/O (input/output) overhead feel lost on most. Where they don't take into account that some devs focus on game systems & algorithms running under the hood first and foremost, with graphical flair being fine goal but a secondary one at that.

In this world ES/Fallout "suck" because they don't look are pretty as Horizon Zero Dawn, completely missing the point that a large percentage of processing power BGS titles are dedicated to AI scripts, model rigging and object permanence completely absent in other genre peers. Processing power with a hard ceiling that makes any dev have to choose balancing world complexity running under the hood and visual bells & whistles presented to the player on screen.

It's baffling that people don't understand the basic principles of processing ceilings. If feel if they did they'd be a lot more forgiving and embracing of productions that fall beneath AAA(A) visual norms.

More people would scream from the rooftops over the glorious complexity of a relatively simple looking games like Project Zomboid, CDDA, etc. that are deeper than any AAA(A) released in the past decade. Yet we titles like this dismissed out of hand because of how they look.
Most people absolutely don't think ES/Fallout suck because of their graphics. Most criticism for BGS comes down to how their games are constantly stripping back features from previous games and streamlining them, not necessarily in a good way.
 

elbageluno

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 4, 2022
933
Nah. This ain't it.

There is no good reason why cutscenes can't be skippable in this day and age.

30FPS is unacceptable, it looks like a PowerPoint presentation on modern displays and gives some people a headache. If we still primarily used CRT's i might be able to see your point, but that isn't the case anymore. If the game is only 30fps i ain't buying it.
Never said you shouldn't be able to skip them. People have a fundamental issue with their existence.

Not being able to handle 30fps is a you problem. Not the devs.
 

Professor Beef

Official ResetEra™ Chao Puncher
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,498
The Digital World
We get it, you want to be as dismissive as you can!
dismissive towards nonsense hyperbole? you better believe it

had your argument (if you can call it one) started and ended at "not really a fan of sub 60fps" then nobody would be giving you shit since it's just a preference

but then you came stomping in here going "30 FPS IS BULLSHIT, IT LITERALLY LOOKS LIKE A POWERPOINT PRESENTATION AND THOSE DEVS JUST DO NOT CARE WHATSOEVER" so now people are going in on you

it takes zero effort to quietly share your preferences compared to being loud and obnoxious
 

NuclearCake

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,867
The devs of OOT didnt give a shit because it runs at 25 fps. Great logic.

It was bad in OOT but almost everything ran like shit on N64. They certainly didn't give a shit about PAL users though, that conversion was abysmal.

Again though 30FPS didn't look anywhere near as bad on a CRT as it does on a modern display.
 

Bengraven

Member
Oct 26, 2017
26,743
Florida
"Everything is _____-like"

No it's not. A game got popular so out of the hundreds of games released this year maybe we have a dozen inspired by that game.

Move on with this shit.
 

crimsonECHIDNA

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,339
Florida
I guess I feel "it's not for you" offers little substance as a response to criticism, and puts the onus on those making criticism not to criticize something that they may not like simply because their opinion is different. Everything in criticism is an opinion. Saying "it's not for you" implies the criticism isn't coming from a valid place because it's an opinion when the other side is just as much of an opinion. It does so without addressing any well-supported claims made in said criticism, just handwaves them away.

While "It's not for you" definitely has (and still does) get used to shut down criticism, I think there is some validity to using it at times. Like say, if I go into the third Bayonetta game and criticize it for it's flamboyant tone and presentation and how I can't understand how anyone else could like it. The whole "maybe the series isn't for you" is a valid response IMHO.

I think at a certain point where a series/developer has established the tropes or designs common in their games, but you keep returning sequel after sequel to complain about those elements being present. By that point, it's just an exercise in misery.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,544
-A lack of self awareness around critically and commercially successful games, just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's bad.

-People who use the word literally wrong.

-Turn based vs Action based combat systems (which is closely linked to the JRPG debate)

-The "whats a JRPG" debate

-Players with no game dev experience criticizing game developers about how games should be made

-People who make arguments and formulate opinions based strictly on thread titles

-Able bodied gamers who use disabled gamers to try and get easy difficulty settings in games.

-Reviewers/Journalists are paid off, this is especially egregious because most of these people follow streamers that ACTUALLY accept cash contracts from publishers

-Blaming developers for things that are almost certainly publisher decisions (like monetization methods for example).

-People getting mad about cross gen games during severe hardware shortages

-People that can't handle legit criticism of their favorite games
 

elbageluno

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 4, 2022
933
-A lack of self awareness around critically and commercially successful games, just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's bad.

-People who use the word literally wrong.

-Turn based vs Action based combat systems (which is closely linked to the JRPG debate)

-The "whats a JRPG" debate

-Players with no game dev experience criticizing game developers about how games should be made

-People who make arguments and formulate opinions based strictly on thread titles

-Able bodied gamers who use disabled gamers to try and get easy difficulty settings in games.

-Reviewers/Journalists are paid off, this is especially egregious because most of these people follow streamers that ACTUALLY accept cash contracts from publishers

-Blaming developers for things that are almost certainly publisher decisions (like monetization methods for example).

-People getting mad about cross gen games during severe hardware shortages

-People that can't handle legit criticism of their favorite games
This is big for me too. How many people arguing about "accessibility" in Elden Ring were simply upset the game was too hard for them? Probably a lot.
 

Ra

Rap Genius
Moderator
Oct 27, 2017
12,201
Dark Space
"Just buff the weak things instead of nerfing the strong things."
This is nice on paper. No one likes having their favorite thing ruined and getting new viable options through buffs is great. However, games have baselines they're aiming for, and if one outlier is above that, the solution is obviously to bring it back in line rather than buffing literally everything else in the game and raising the baseline from what it was intended to be. Buff-oriented balancing is great and all but sometimes things just have to be nerfed.
The thing about this though, where I have some pushback, is that it holds a lot of validity in instances where nerfing the better performing items does not mean people are going to start using the things that are already useless. Making more items feels poor to play instead of the inverse, making the lowest items feel like they have a place in the game, is not balance but fun killing.

The obviously overperforming always need tuning, but this specific complaint usually rears its head when a developer is ignoring a slew of low tier or trash items/weapons/characters and only focusing on bringing other things down.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,602
"Live systems are archaic"
They're not archaic because they measure consistency in a way that you can't do without some kind of equivalent. When a game makes you redo parts of a stage you already completed, if you're thinking "why are they making me do this again, I already proved I can do this once," you're looking at the game wrong. The skill the game is judging isn't that you can beat each segment of the stage once in isolation, it's if you can beat the whole thing with a limited number of deaths across all segments.

"Turn-based combat is archaic"
They literally had action RPGs on 8-bit and 16-bit consoles with combat systems that were and still are considered fine, so if this were true then turn-based RPGs should have gone away a long time ago. Chrono Trigger could have easily just played like the SNES Mana games for instance; it even runs on a similar engine iirc. They chose to make it turn-based because it was a deliberate design decision.

"The Smash scene is composed of smelly sex pests"
While it's valid and even good if you don't feel comfortable participating in the scene because of how high the quantity of sexual misconduct allegations were, basically all of the cases that were outed weren't known to the general playerbase or TOs. Once they were outed, said players were pretty swiftly banned from all events. I don't really know what you'd expect the average player or TO to do beyond that and just raising awareness to the occurrences once they're outed. The smelly thing is basically a meme that hasn't been true in large capacities for a decade, at least not within the local events I go to.
 

mute

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,062
"FF8 is bad because Drawing/Junctions suck"

All you are really saying is you prefer grinding the same mobs over and over again for EXP/AP instead of choosing any of the many ways FF8 allows you to progress that isn't just sitting there Drawing.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,935
If yall are going to post these maybe at least link to a detailed example of the argument on why Epic games is bad and Steam isn't(and wasn't when it came out), if you don't feel like explaining yourselves. Because from my perspective of still having a grudge on steam's rollout I don't understand what you're saying
I don't talk a whole lot about EGS these days, and some of these posts are old, containing arguments I'd probably rephrase or reframe if I made them today, or arguments which may hold a bit less weight in 2022 than they did in 2019 - but regardless, here are some of my takes from the past.

re: have you turned around on Epic launcher? (2022)

Nope. There's a lot more to it than it just being a bad launcher, though. I'm gonna go ahead and repost the last post I made on this subject.

Epic Games Store is one of those subjects I try to avoid these days, in large part because of how toxic I've been in past EGS and EGS-adjacent topics and discussions. I've been better lately, I think, but it's still something I'm actively working on.

That said, there's a lot more context behind my dislike of some of Epic's practices lately than simply, oh no, another launcher. At times I've felt compelled to at least try and write it all out, but it's a difficult thing to write out a whole page of information only to have it constantly paraphrased down to something completely misrepresentative of my position.

Suffice to say that there's a lot more to it than that for many of us - and that, at the core of our discontent sits Tim Sweeney's active dishonesty and his attempts at manipulating existing conversations within the gaming space to suit his and his company's own ends. I've been using Steam (and a dozen other launchers, mostly happily I might add) for long enough that I know I don't really have to miss out on the Steam features I enjoy even if I'm playing a game obtained via EGS.

To me it's not simply about that; but to put it simply, the kind of unsavory and manipulative behavior that Tim engaged in during the lead in to the Apple lawsuit (all that Free Fortnite jazz, literal attempts to get children galvanized and arguing in his favor) and now with NFTs is exactly the same kind of behavior he launched his EGS rhetoric campaign with - a string of calculated and intentional misrepresentations regarding Valve's contributions to and practices within the very industry Epic now seeks to secure a piece of... in order to convince an existing group of angry nerds - in this case, last decade's fairly large contingent of "Valve doesn't do shit with their horde of gold or else we'd have Half Life 3 by now" believers - to argue on the behalf of business decisions on Epic's part that the market would have (and actually have) rejected otherwise. Basically weaponizing people who were already galvanized, in order to have an outward justification for Epic's ensuing behavior, and an alibi for their launchers feature-anemia and exclusivity practices during a time where those things didn't really fly.

When it comes to Epic's other contributions to the industry, I tend to remain tight lipped because I don't actually have any issues with those things (instead, usually, actual appreciation)... but I ain't gonna lie, Sweeney's argumentative habits leave such a bad taste in my mouth that it's hard for me to not feel some kind of skepticism whenever they make a new move, at least before I've had a chance to seek more of a truth than whatever is coming from his mouth or from Epic's PR team.

In short, Valve grew the PC gaming industry and maintained its health during a period where everyone else, Epic in particular, abandoned ship out of fear that PC gaming was certainly going to die. Only after Valve put in said work did Tim and Epic see fit to galvanize those aforementioned angry nerds into fighting a made up war against profit splits, entirely to obfuscate behavior that Epic knew the PC gaming community would otherwise completely and utterly reject. And then they went ahead and just lied repeatedly about their road map and their planned features/timeline because they wanted to give people arguing in their favor something to stand behind...

So yeah, that some expect me to just accept EGS despite all of this because of some not only nebulous but completely unsubstantiated notion that EGS constitutes good and stimulating competition for the market, is just... well, completely asinine and devoid of any underlying logic beyond defending the underdog or castigating a competing platform they already didn't like. It's why I have no patience for people who drop in just to say "competition!!" or "it's just another launcher" or "just fanboy hate". Nah, it's a lot more than that and Tim Sweeney has shown his ass so many times in the years since that it genuinely blows my mind that some can just overlook literally all of it in his defense.

re: you're not really losing out on much by just buying with Epic (2019)

Cloud saves are huge, but for some of us, when a game is made EGS exclusive, we lose out on a lot more than that. This is what I stand to lose out on personally whenever an anticipated game makes the move:

- forums that have proven invaluable on dozens of occasions in quickly finding answers and solutions for esoteric issues w/games that would have otherwise required trawling google and piecing together myself

- mod support backed by a fairly comprehensive mod distribution and management platform built into Steam that has enabled hundreds of thousands of mods, many of which are games that wouldn't have seen a fraction of the mod support without such a centralized and easy-to-use resource at their disposal - an infrastructure that allows, among other things, easy one-click sharing of entire modlists, automated modlist synchronization and updates for groups of players (ie players playing a modded multiplayer game together can simply subscribe to a group collection of mods, and any changes made/updates to mods are automatically deployed to everyone, saving potentially hours of hassle)

- deep integrated control customization which allows me to use any input device I own to play any game I own on PC, whether that game was designed for such an input device, or anything besides kb/m for that matter, and which grants me a massive degree of control over how my controls work, for accessibility and for function

- a large network of engaged users who give the above features real worth via their contributions: forums give people a visible central place to provide support and share their own solutions, the mod distribution and management platform enables users to improve the experience of a game over time for one another, and users can upload their custom controls for any device and any game or program that they run through Steam, freely available to other users

- Steam in-home and remote streaming complete with full in-game overlays and controller customization functionality, which are things that generally support non-Steam games run through Steam, but not without frequent issues inherent to how non-Steam games handle controls and overlays. I've played a number of Steam games on my phone in bed, or on a tablet at a friend's house. It's a big feature for me that I like to play around with and as with controller customization it's complete to the extent that I can even integrate my device's motion sensors into my custom control schemes while streaming.

- regular deals facilitated through the Steam store itself and through stores which sell generated Steam keys that don't require a cut paid to Valve despite being distributed through Steam and backed by the platform's suite of tools, services, and functionality - this often enabling those stores and affiliated pubs/devs to cut the sort of deep deals that PC gaming is known for without breaking the bank

And that's just the stuff that's really important to me. The shit I've listed above can augment the experience of playing a game in ways that make or break the entire experience. These things improve my experience, sometimes drastically. And of course I've got a laundry list of little annoyances and things I'd lose out on when one of my most anticipated upcoming games moves to Steam, but I think you'd find them largely unimportant to you personally, and thus easy for you to deem 'unworthy of complaining about'. Ultimately, though, it should be easy for you to see how EGS offers me, as a player and as a consumer, virtually nothing that isn't utterly superceded by what's available elsewhere.

All that EGS offers me as their customer is the opportunity to pay Epic a distributor cut, instead of Valve or any other entity... and Epic doesn't intend to coerce me into doing so with a merit-based approach, but by holding my favored franchises hostage under the condition that I capitulate. That's not a precedent that I'm comfortable helping to set. Epic expects me and other consumers to willingly constrain our experience as PC gamers, and to willingly give up the expectation that a platform-holder should work to appease consumers beyond leveraging warchests to secure rights to valued brands.

Epic is orders of magnitudes bigger than Valve, for what it's worth. You might argue that Steam is the defacto place to game on PC and therefore that they didn't earn my support, but I support a variety of platforms and storefronts on PC that thrive alongside Steam, and while any of them may have compelling features and solid reasons to support them, Steam comes out ahead, and that's not a sentiment borne from attachment to the Steam brand. Epic, on the other hand, was more than capable of putting together a platform meant to convince people to use it based on how it would stand to improve their experience - and they've chosen a much more unsavory approach. So who needs 'em?

in a nutshell, Epic don't intend to earn my support, and thus, they won't. They've given me and others plenty to complain about, so while it might seem like a reasonable position in the moment for you to be like, "come on, those things you value aren't really important", try and understand that there's plenty not to like here, not just the loss of achievements, forums, and cloud saves.

re: Epic's misrepresentation of their entry into the market as altruism, and of moneyhats as a necessary evil (2019)

Yeah, basically. The conversation surrounding EGS forks off in ways that make it easy for people to lose the forest for the trees. Epic's practices shouldn't really be celebrated. A PC gaming landscape where platform holders openly compete by way of third-party exclusivity deals and acquisitions is not what anyone should want, but Epic would have people believe that such behavior is a necessary evil, and that any competition is good, any way it comes... and that's nonsense.


To break it down:


PC gaming is in a visibly healthy state.
Epic, a company which once saw fit to to imply the imminent death of PC gaming,
became more aware of PC gaming's growth and success not too long ago,
and wished to solidify their presence in the PC marketplace as quickly as possible.
Epic is a large and very lucrative company, with vast resources at their disposal.
It is not as though Epic lacked the option to develop a platform on PC that could compete on the merit of its features, functionality, and services...
...but they saw an easier inroad, a simpler means by which to coerce consumers over to their platform
- by securing exclusivity to this generation's most anticipated games - and that option was time-sensitive.
Developing features takes time. Developing back-end features takes time. Developing dev-facing features takes time.
User facing features? That's time. A shopping cart takes time... giving people reason to choose your store or platform, that's precious time.
...but 2019's biggest games, they were still going to release day and date, whether EGS was ready, or not.

And so Epic developed and deigned to release a barebones launcher bearing no essential features for anybody
specifically to get it out in time to exploit opportunities afforded to Epic by the explosive success of Fortnite, and Epic's resultant wealth.
(Mainly, moneyhats. I'll touch on that more in a bit.)
EGS, designed to be released barebones, and to remain a feature-lite platform in perpetuity,
would inherently lack the R&D expenses inherent to more ambitious and genuinely competitive alternatives....
...as well as any salient reason for developers and publishers to want to commit to Epic's new platform.


Enter the cut. Epic's highly publicized 12/88 cut was, simply put, borne from necessity. Epic could not openly justify anything higher, not to consumers or to developers, not so long as their platform was to be so anemic.

The low cut served valuable purpose as a PR tool, however. Epic chose to publicize their cut as the defining feature of EGS, its raison d'etre. They positioned the cut as a decision borne from Epic's collective sense of altruism and unity with the development community. That cut, in reality, was never more than a concession to the fact that EGS doesn't match up to its competition. In leveraging the cut as a PR tool, Epic succeeded in taking attention off of EGS's weak innate value proposition, and in manipulating gaming communities into pressuring Valve to compete with Epic - on Epic's terms.

Epic knows that Valve can't drop their cut to equal Epic's, when Valve maintains a feature-rich platform, have historically contributed to the health of PC gaming in important consumer- and developer-facing ways, and continue to do so. In addition, Valve acquiescing to Epic's bizarro request wouldn't actually shift the needle in Valve's favor, anyway. Not when Epic's actual means of competition has been to silently secure exclusivity to proven PC and Steam successes, as well as highly-anticipated late-gen titles.

Epic purchases exclusivity rights to such games in order to force proven payers - generally Steam users, specifically - to jump ship. Not that those users would want to, or ever would, if given actual choice (considering there's just about nothing in it for them, the users), but they must, if they want to continue enjoying the same franchises they've come to enjoy on PC.

Epic knows that they can't expect Valve to reciprocate this behavior, either. That's because Valve understands that, if it were to become accepted for any old megacorporation to drop superfluous, featureless launchers, and purchase exclusivity as their means to compete, then that will significantly devalue the PC gaming experience over time for users, and jeopardize the healthy and open ecosystem that Valve played a large part in cultivating. PC gaming will become a worse place when platform holders aren't expected to work toward improving the experience for users, and can simply say, "you have to use our platform, and deal with the limited experience that it provides, and pay us for the privilege, or you won't get to play your most anticipated games on your hardware of choice".

PC gamers largely understand that, too. That's why there was so much resistance to early efforts by EA, Ubisoft, et al. when they tried to pull similar shit. And those were corporations that created the games that they were attempting to control the distribution of! Much less a question of 'fairness', PC gamers immediately recognized that these corporations had little intention to EARN their support, and in fact, would make the experience of owning a PC and gaming on it markedly worse for them - so they fought back.

And you know what, the platforms that survived were the ones that evolved in acquiescence to this fact. These days, uPlay and Origin largely avoid the kind of scrutiny they used to receive, because as platforms, they've got reasonably compelling features and conveniences to their names. They've still got a handful of exclusives, but they're few and far between, owned by the company that owns the launcher, and it turns out that PC gamers can put up with some degree of profit-minded fragmentation if the launcher can merely near the established standards for PC gaming features and functionality.

Now, look at Epic, and EGS. Epic released a launcher that does very little. Epic purchases exclusivity to third-party games, specifically so that you can't play them there, only here. Epic leveraged their necessary 12/88 cut as a PR move to generate goodwill in the short term, and to obfuscate their methods. Epic dishonestly posed the market leader a challenge to meet this revenue split, with the intention that they wouldn't, and the knowledge that they couldn't. Epic has poured fuel on every nearby fire to distract from their own billowing smoke. Epic, when faced with backlash, continuously told skeptics what they wanted to hear, in the hopes that each discussion would blow over before Epic could publically backpedal and return to practices that they had never halted in private.

In engaging in this kind of behavior and convincing gamers to accept it for 'competition's sake', Epic risks opening pandora's box. If Epic helps to make PC gaming an industry where consumers accept paid exclusivity and brash corporate dishonesty as acceptable practices, all in the name of taking down a market leader devoted to facilitating genuine growth and a diverse market, then Epic thereby opens the door for other corporations to do the same.

So henever I read about how Valve should compete against whatever Epic did this week, and the suggestion turns out to be, "moneyhat!" or "make Half-Life 3", or even "improve curation and make Steam a more inclusive and welcoming environment for a diverse userbase", or whatever, I'm left baffled. Not by the notion that Steam wouldn't become a more traditionally competitive platform than it already is as a result, but by the notion that any of those moves would actually function as competition against Epic's meritless incursion into the PC space to begin with.


Epic doesn't compete on a level playing ground, they compete by engaging in practices which the PC gaming community has always fervently opposed and rejected, while slandering their competition with intentional fud to provide cover for themselves. None of those things would do anything to prevent Epic from continuing to operate as they have. None of those things would prevent Epic from sniping upcoming Steam titles and poaching as many of Steam's users as Epic can pay for.

I don't want Valve to moneyhat exclusives or to purchase developers anyway, especially not with the specific purpose to remove them from competing platforms. In a reasonable climate, nobody would... but Epic, they've managed to lower the conversational bar to such an extent that their recent practices are ALWAYS seen by some as an inexplicable net-good for gaming, and it's poison to reason. Epic wants to proliferate that poison, so that they can freely run roughshod on PC gaming with their Fortnite money, and some people don't seem to give a damn what that entails, because any competition is good competition, right...?

If you're someone who believes that Valve is stagnant, or that they're keeping the industry stagnant, or if you just desire Steam to improve as a user, then you may feel inclined to frame Valve's shortcomings as evidence that Valve needs a strong competitor, and that Epic just might be the kick in the pants that Valve needed. If you really see Epic as that competitor, however - as a presence whose mode of competition may force change and improvement within the industry, as other platform holders attempt to meet Epic's match - then you've got more trust for them, that they've earned from me. As far as I'm concerned, if you expect Valve to compete with what Epic is doing, then Valve had better be developing a game that will literally kill Fortnite, because anything short of that woudn't do a whole lot to stop Epic from moneyhatting while the moneyhatting is good.

Personally, my disdain toward EGS is partly in response to their business practices, but also largely in response to their rhetoric and posturing, which to me seemed intended to disguise Epic's methods and intentions in preparation for an expected backlash. EGS ultimately released as platform with no user-facing advantages over its competition, and I'm not convinced that EGS had to release that way. I'm not convinced that Epic wasn't capable of creating a platform competitive to Steam in most respects, IN ADDITION TO having a lower cut for developers. That was never outside of their ability as a company, even if that may have been prohibitive to a 2019 release. Instead of putting in that work and competing with Valve on the basis of a purportedly friendlier environment for developers and gamers alike... Epic paid publishers and developers vast sums of money to take their games off of Steam, and put them on to EGS. Then, Epic deliberately misrepresented these moneyhats as choices made by developers who saw the value in that big beautiful cut, and couldn't help but to come on over. All of this, in an attempt to not only pressure the PC gaming community into accepting a platform propped up by practices that would not (and did not) resonate with the PC gaming community once exposed... but to also renew the narrative of Steam as a bad actor, so that they could position themselves as the good to Steam's bad, in order to capitalize on a healthy environment that Steam had a large part in cultivating, and in proving the existence of.

And it all feels so incredibly disingenuous. Epic, a company that spent the better part of the last decade adhering to the notion that the PC market wasn't especially important or worthwhile, observes Steam's success, the health of PC gaming, and the rise of Twitch, and decides that the best way to re-enter the market would be to attempt to compromise the company that worked to justify their re-entry into the PC space to begin with, in a targeted manner, through shady means. It'd be one thing if EGS had a low cut and competitive features to boot, and again, it could have, but instead, to convince me to play on their store... Epic brought paid exclusivity to PC, using misleading rhetoric to stifle skeptical PC gamers and to place the optics squarely on Valve. Epic paid to remove games from a platform that generally enhances my experience with games, in order to force me and fans of those games to purchase those games on a launcher that does basically nothing for us, with the specific intent to carve a hole into Valve's piece of the pie and insert themselves firmly into it.

Epic's intention is for us to believe that in order to compete with EGS's burgeoning presence, other PC gaming giants, mainly Steam, must lower their own cut to match Epic's cut, and it's a compelling idea, because no matter how you feel about Valve or Steam, developers are the people who make our games, and if they can make more money on their games, they can live better and achieve more. Even now I'm still on the side of Valve lowering their cut, but Epic's intent isn't altruistic. It feels to me like Epic's true interest is in reducing Steam's marketshare in whatever ways they can, in order to carve themselves out an unearned presence in the market - so for Epic, the cut was largely a PR move, one convenient for the holders of a platform that wouldn't demand the ongoing maintenance and R&D expense that more ambitious competitors do, and which ultimately lacks any other innate reason for developers to switch over. This was meant to suit a specific narrative that would pressure its competitors into reducing their cut and therefore their revenue streams, so that Epic may more freely take advantage of that Fortnite money and compete in the actual manner they've chosen to - with large payouts, to secure exclusives and convince fans to use Epic's launcher in lieu of any other reason to.

It's easy to imagine why Epic didn't lead in with that, right? I mean, I'm not ignorant to the fact that a large initial payout would be and is a boon for some developers. So why did Epic place so much emphasis on their cut alone? Why did Epic choose not to reveal the role their payments played in securing EGS exclusives until their hand was forced? Because this practice emphasizes Epic's actual goal - a goal that would go without saying in any other context. That is to say, Epic is just another company that wants people to pay them a cut on PC. Just like so many other publishers and gaming giants that released launchers designed solely and specifically to give them deeper control over the monetization of their games. And they wanted to position themselves as something more than that. They wanted to sidestep the suspicion, skepticism, and stigma that the act of releasing a shitty launcher in a transparent attempt to enhance your revenue stream usually carries with it on PC.

The ripple effects that EGS's actions and rhetoric will have across PC gaming may, in some ways, prove positive. I will support Valve lowering their cut, although I'd love for them to actually come forward and describe how their money moves within the company, because that would give us all some much-needed context better informing us as to how and how far Valve could lower their cut while continuing to advance Steam and contribute to PC gaming. It's easy for me to choose not to support Epic Games Store, however, until they get their shit together and give me reasons to utilize their service and buy games on their platform. Reasons that aren't openly hostile toward my user experience gaming on PC, or openly hostile toward other PC gaming entities (including but not limited to Steam), entities who I perceive as actually having contributed positively to the texture and state of PC gaming today. Until they can achieve that and prove their commitment to PC as more than just a big new revenue stream for the company, I'll continue seeing them as outsiders who've got little to offer me for my money.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,305
TURN BASED VIDEOGAMES EXIST ONLY BECAUSE OF TECHNICAL LIMITATIONS

Watson.Amelia.full.3419645.jpg
*hits blunt*

"You see, back in the day, all developers wanted their games to be character-action, bro, and like, turn-based was the workaround solution to create the illusion of that happening."
 

PinkSpider

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,908
"FF8 is bad because Drawing/Junctions suck"

All you are really saying is you prefer grinding the same mobs over and over again for EXP/AP instead of choosing any of the many ways FF8 allows you to progress that isn't just sitting there Drawing.
I quite liked it. I didn't get it was the best way of levelling up though when there is a traditional system of levelling up and EXP when I was a teen though, maybe if I'd of known at the time I'd of appreciated it more (Unlike when I played it last year and loved it, easily the fourth best Final Fantasy).
 

JigglesBunny

Prophet of Truth
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
31,075
Chicago
"If you don't like it, don't play it."

Yeah, but what if I want to play it and I want it to be better? See: Halo Infinite.
 

Tyaren

Character Artist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
24,711
That a general "open world fatigue" exists.
There is no such thing as a general open world fatigue, as open world games have been and keep on being the most popular and best-selling games in the business, such as Skyrim, GTAV, RDR1/2, The Witcher 3, Breath of the Wild, Genshin Impact, Elden Ring...
Even open world games, that according to many don't do open world right and fatigue players, as is often claimed of Ubisoft games, still turn out to be among the best-selling games of a year.
 

SweetBellic

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,407
"this game doesn't respect my time."

i don't have an issue with calling out grindy mechanics or filler material, but the wording here really grinds (aha) my fucking gears. it's just so… entitled.
Thank you! Sounds so dumb, every time. The game has content you don't like, I get that, but that expression just takes it so personally lol.
 

Chocobo Blade

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,847
It's a cop-out answer… but, all of them?

The gaming community has been at each other's throats about damn near everything, and it's tiring.
Honestly, lol
Even reading through this thread there's too many posts just strawmanning opinions they disagree with and deflecting them with bad arguments of their own.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,544
That a general "open world fatigue" exists.
There is no such thing as a general open world fatigue, as open world games have been and keep on being the most popular and best-selling games in the business, such as Skyrim, GTAV, RDR1/2, The Witcher 3, Breath of the Wild, Genshin Impact, Elden Ring...
Even open world games, that according to many don't do open world right and fatigue players, as is often claimed of Ubisoft games, still turn out to be among the best-selling games of a year.

Just to defend myself, i don't claim that this is a large phenomenon, it's specifically for players like me who have played a very large amount of them over the last decade. There's a reason they continue to be made, people enjoy them or at the very least see them as a good value for your dollar.
 

crimsonECHIDNA

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,339
Florida
Honestly, a common thing I've picked up is people, in general, showed just stop trying to be cute with using "stock criticisms" and just actually elaborate what they actually dislike.

Though I guess me saying "I think FFXV has poor pacing" is way less inflammatory than saying "It overstayed its welcome/wasted my time." lol
 

elbageluno

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 4, 2022
933
"Too videogame-y"
I only really see this one with journos. But bitch YOURE PLAYING A FUCKING GAME!!!!!!!!!
 

Skyshark

Member
Apr 26, 2021
1,273
Its not really an "argument" per se but I see people all the time talk about how they uninstalled a game after 30 mins or something... one time I saw someone say they turned off GTA San Andreas after buying it for full price at launch cuz they were bored by the opening (less than 5 min long) bike mission at the beginning of the game. It makes me angrier than it should.
I remember playing Vice City. The game starts, if I recall, with you on a bicycle having to run from the police or something like that. It was taking too long for that bicycle shit to end so I turned it off and never played again. Same thing with the first Arkham game. I think you started by having to walk down some slow corridor while talking to someone. I never finished the walk. Turned that shit off and sold it.

My mistake. Yes, it was San Andreas. I did play through all of Vice City.

Well shit, that was me. Though in my defense, I bought the three games as a collection and played through the other two so it was some time after the initial release, meaning I didn't pay full price.