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Babylon 5 is now streaming on HBO Max, one of the very best shows ever
- Thread starter gdt
- Start date
- Entertainment
He's such a fucked up person, yet there's just enough decency in him to make you wonder if
he really did choose to do all these things or he was so out of his league that he couldn't stop the train once it gained momentum.
OP
OP
Certainly closer to Trek. It's a 90s sci fi show after all.
But it's grand space Opera sci fi. Very grand
It's a natural way to pronounce it, Japanese has that consonant shift. I don't remember how others say it in the show.
Check out JMS' biography, "Becoming Superman", because he goes into the whole situation in more detail that anyone who was involved with it has ever done before, and he's pretty clear about there being a rip off. Also the important thing is that we're talking about it being set up to be based on the early B5 plan (not what aired) - if you're aware of the plans AND how they changed then you can see how DSN was set up to follow one closely then pivoted as B5 changed.
Even JMS himself says that he doesn't believe Berman, Piller or anyone directly involved with the production of DS9 had any knowledge of the Babylon 5 pitch, he says he thinks higher ups at Paramount might have influenced the direction but to what degree? Amd how does anyone know if the mostly superficial similarities are the result of a higher up at the studio subtly influencing the show or if it's the result of the writers simply doing a show with a similar premise at the same time? Writers who write in the same genre and are influenced by the same media, news, ideas etc. come up with similar concepts or ideas all the time, that's not evidence of anyone ripping anyone else off.
The shapeshifter for example, it's way more likely someone at Paramount pointed at Terminator 2 (released right before development on DS9 started) and asked "Can we do that?" instead off lifting the idea from the B5 pitch. Especially because the Odo jello effect is pretty similar to the liquid metal T-1000.
And of course shapeshifters as a concept are an ancient idea as old as storytelling itself, they show in the oldest surviving mythologies.
My posts in this thread maybe sound like I don't like Babylon 5 but I do, I just don't think it's perfect. I have watched both B5 and DS9 and the shows are completely different and the things that are similar are not even original ideas JMS came up with, they are just generic elements found in countless stories, so where's the rip off?
And if JMS claims DS9 ripped off Babylon 5 then I say Babylon 5 ripped off Lord of the Rings because there are also some really big similarities between those two stories.
It's definitely a lot of the latter. It's alluded to in some of the episodes, and there's a lot of growth in the last couple seasons that makes the tragedy of his character really apparent.
Londo and G'Kar are fascinating characters. It's always a joy to watch their evolution throughout the series.
That scene where:
G'kar tells Londo he can't forgive his people, but he can forgive him still brings a tear to my eye.
I think the show is very much about how Londo keeps on getting ahead, but never in the way that he wants. "Not like this!" is pretty much his personal motto. I think that there's only one singular event that happens to him plays out the way he wanted it to. (And even this one is a bit spoiled.)
I really did not expect to see
playing a Ranger. A detail I obviously didn't appreciate when I watched the show as it aired ha!
walter white
Watched "Confessions and Lamentations" tonight with my daughter.
We've seen the disease / plague /pandemic type episodes several times now (most notably in DS9 that I recall).
I joked with her that scifi has been trying to warn people about scary pandemics for decades. The episode really nails the main details. Even down to the bartender at the end of the episode talking conspiracy theories ("they say the Vorlons poisoned them").
We've seen the disease / plague /pandemic type episodes several times now (most notably in DS9 that I recall).
I joked with her that scifi has been trying to warn people about scary pandemics for decades. The episode really nails the main details. Even down to the bartender at the end of the episode talking conspiracy theories ("they say the Vorlons poisoned them").
I had an issue with Season 1 Episode 21. Ten minutes into the episode, the audio sync was off for me. That was it though.
I started rewatching this now that it's on HBO Max. First off, once you get past the first episode with it's unfortunate zoom for the effects shots, the show really does look amazing compared to how I remember it. I can't wait to get to the later seasons when the show's effects are a step up from the first season.
I had the day off today, and I just watched "And The Sky Full Of Stars". I forgot how this show goes from typical mid-90s TV sci-fi to "holy shit that was incredible what did I just see" in the space of one episode. I mean some of the previous episodes were good, but that episode sets the stage for so much to come, and it's a Prisoner homage to boot. I remember watching this first run, and I remember just how much that episode blew my mind. There really weren't any shows that I had seen to that point that developed ongoing arcs and mysteries. You had TNG doing some basic stuff, but the way "And the Sky…" reveals what was meant in the opening movie with the "there is a hole in your head", as well as the reveal at the end with Delenn and the member of the Grey Council was just great. I've often said that B5 is the first truly "modern" TV series, and that's the episode I'd point to to prove it.
I had the day off today, and I just watched "And The Sky Full Of Stars". I forgot how this show goes from typical mid-90s TV sci-fi to "holy shit that was incredible what did I just see" in the space of one episode. I mean some of the previous episodes were good, but that episode sets the stage for so much to come, and it's a Prisoner homage to boot. I remember watching this first run, and I remember just how much that episode blew my mind. There really weren't any shows that I had seen to that point that developed ongoing arcs and mysteries. You had TNG doing some basic stuff, but the way "And the Sky…" reveals what was meant in the opening movie with the "there is a hole in your head", as well as the reveal at the end with Delenn and the member of the Grey Council was just great. I've often said that B5 is the first truly "modern" TV series, and that's the episode I'd point to to prove it.
Just watched "The Illusion of Truth".
Good grief, this episode really predicted Fox News, OAN, Newsmax, and other right wing media.
Just an update to say I have completed season 4 and it's now been a hell of a ride. However I have heard I should just watch the last episode of season 5 as it was filmed at the end of 4?
Some people are actually telling me that Season 5 is worse than 1 because it doesn't really go anywhere.
Some people are actually telling me that Season 5 is worse than 1 because it doesn't really go anywhere.
The whole Centauri Prime / Drakh plot line is great. Maybe bit too short, since there is lot of stuff going on and it doesn't get the build up it deserves.
Seeds of Telepath War are also laid in this season (covered in books only). TBH most people don't like this plot line and I also think it's bit weak. But Bester on screen is always win.
edit1. Cult of G'Kar is also hilarious.
edit2. "A View from the Gallery" is also amazing episode. It plays out bit like Star Trek episode Lower decks. You get the daily events of B5 from POV of two maintenance crew members.
edit3. dam, A View from the Gallery was co-written by Harlan Ellison.
In-conclusion there is lot of good moments and episodes in S5 so don't skip it.
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The first half of Season 5 is a bit weak. The whole telepath colony arc really isn't developed that well. The second half of Season 5 is really good though. The Centauri Prime, Drakhh, and G'kar stories are great. Also, the last few episodes before the finale have a great feeling of finality, with characters moving on and such. Very emotional.
I would not skip Season 5.
BTW does HBO Max have Call to Arms? It's pretty much only good B5 movie with In the Beginning and it ties some stuff up. Also sets up the story for Crusade.
Never saw B5. I'm a huge sci-fi fan. STNG, DS9, etc.. BSG is one of my favorite shows ever. But watching some of these remastered clips this has such a 90s feel to it. I don't know if I can get past the cheesy bits. Especially if the first season is cringy.
Convince me ERA.
Convince me ERA.
watch it, it's amazing, and if you can watch STNG and handle cheese you can handle B5 which is overall far less cheese... just dive in, season 2 gets better as the real protagonist Sheridan comes in
The only have "The Gathering" (not remastered) as the first episode of season 1. They do not have the other TV movies, nor Crusade.
Ah, that sucks. I still recommend Call to Arms to anyone if they can find it. In the Beginning about the Earth-Minbari war is also excellent but it doesn't continue the story, so it's not essential.
I've been rewatching it as well. If you can get past season 1 and 2 of TNG, you can get through season 1 of B5. The first third of S1 has a very 90s adventure show of the week feel, but the tone shifts once you realize just how many seeds are being planted and how the story lines are being developed. If you liked BSG, you'll like B5. It has a far, far better and more coherent story than BSG did, IMO.
Who here has read the B5 books? I'm always left oddly unfulfilled after watching season 5; it has one of television's greatest senses of intentionally slowed momentum and true finality near its end, but it also seeds stuff we never get to see.
I've never been a huge fan of resorting to text for continuations of formerly cinematic media, but all these years later, and I'm more tempted than ever to tackle these trilogies.
Garibaldi's stuff, Lyta's stuff, Bester's stuff... there's a lot going on here. It's pretty obvious Crusade was supposed to pick up the ball eventually.
I've never been a huge fan of resorting to text for continuations of formerly cinematic media, but all these years later, and I'm more tempted than ever to tackle these trilogies.
I watched TNG S1 when it first came out and almost quit on the show because of how bad it was. But there wasn't much else to watch, so I stuck with it. The BSG story was ultimately disappointing, but the character development and the military drama was what I really enjoyed.
It sounds like you are a bit like me. I loved the military hard sci-fi feel of season 1 of BSG, and was let down by the direction it took in subsequent seasons. I stuck with it to the end, and there were certainly highs there, but S1 is the best of that series for me.
But B5? Trust me...power through that first season, and it's not even the entire first season, and you'll find a great show. I'd say you'll start seeing glimpses of that greatness around episode 8. When I watched it first run, that episode blew my mind a bit - not because it was mind blowing by today's standards, but that's when I realized I was watching a fully serialized tv show, something I'd never really experienced at that point. Once you get to season 2 and realize the scope of what they're going for...well, hopefully you'll be hooked. There still hasn't been anything as fully realized as B5 on TV since.
The character development in Babylon 5 is amazing, especially for a couple of the characters (do not want to spoil).
I think B5 still has the best main narrative of any scifi show I've seen. Including those you listed. If you are into epic stories you are most likely going to love B5.
In the back half of S4 in my rewatch - just watched No Retreat, No Surrender.
Just like I remembered this season moooooves, but feels a bit rushed at times with the amount of ground covered. A few plot lines really could have done with an extra episode or two more to breath.
Obviously S4 seeming like the end of the line at the time didn't allow that, and it's still an epic season.
I really love that B5 has a couple of big 'plot conclusion' beats and you really get to see the impact and ramifications of those plot lines on the characters and the state of the galaxy.
And then it has some real denouement and epilogue feeling moments at the end in S5.
A proper narrative if a tad cheesy at times.
Looking at the air dates on this rewatch I am reminded of big life & career changes I was going through at the time of airing, and this show was a big creative inspiration to me.
Just like I remembered this season moooooves, but feels a bit rushed at times with the amount of ground covered. A few plot lines really could have done with an extra episode or two more to breath.
Obviously S4 seeming like the end of the line at the time didn't allow that, and it's still an epic season.
I really love that B5 has a couple of big 'plot conclusion' beats and you really get to see the impact and ramifications of those plot lines on the characters and the state of the galaxy.
And then it has some real denouement and epilogue feeling moments at the end in S5.
A proper narrative if a tad cheesy at times.
Looking at the air dates on this rewatch I am reminded of big life & career changes I was going through at the time of airing, and this show was a big creative inspiration to me.
The Telepath War trilogy of books does go into almost all that stuff. It goes into what happens with Garibaldi as well as the stuff Bester was doing and his fate.
The Telepath War trilogy mostly deals with that Telepath War stuff, the other Trilogy goes more into talking about the post Drahk stuff, and makes mention of what happened with Crusade stuff, though it doesn't go into big details, it kind of gives some summaries of what occurred in the universe and ties up the Centauri Drahk stuff
JMS provided the outlines and did editing work on the 3 trilogies of novels so they are pretty much considered canon
I mean, I actually don't hate the latter parts and finale of BSG like so many others do. However, B5 is one of the few shows where I always cry during the series finale without fail.
I've never seen or read anything beyond the original show though so the talk about these novels is making me want to give a few of them a read after this rewatch. Aside from the actual plot content are they at least written competently and well enough that you're not distracted by just bad writing?
I've never seen or read anything beyond the original show though so the talk about these novels is making me want to give a few of them a read after this rewatch. Aside from the actual plot content are they at least written competently and well enough that you're not distracted by just bad writing?
If you just want to know how Garibaldi and Bester's conflict finally gets resolved just skip to the last book in the Psi Corps trilogy, Bester's Fate. It deals with
Bester being on the run from Earth/The Alliance after the telepath war as a war criminal and Garibaldi's various attempts to capture him and finally get revenge for Bester using him in S4.
Londo's life and conflict with the Drakh post S5 along with the full truth of both he and G'Kar's fate which you see glimpsed in War Without End. It also goes into detail on what happened to Sheridan's son and also has great character development with Vir.
I saw a fairly recent interview with Walter Koenig where he confirmed there was originally going to be a sixth season which he was set to return for as Bester and it would have featured various other character stories within the B5 universe. Also, if you ever get a chance to find a copy of 2007's Babylon 5 the Lost Tales, in the special features there is an interview with JMS and Bruce Boxleitner where Boxleitner pointedly says to JMS and the interviewer that in his opinion 'there should have been a sixth season.' Boxleitner has expressed disappointment and frustration in other interviews about the show ending after season 5. I definitely liked Crusade from what little we got of it but would have preferred a sixth season of B5 instead for sure.
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I feel like this is a problem with almost all the post-main series attempts at bringing something back. We already got an incredibly epic story, and given what we know from it about where the characters end up, a continuation of those stories would have been preferable to trying to create a new, equally epic story in that universe. Crusade probably could have hit closest to the mark, but Legends of the Rangers just felt like they were trying to set up Shadow War 2.0, and Lost Tales, as neat as it was, was just mere glimpses into more interesting stories that should have been told with those characters.
I agree. Crusade was a great idea but just felt like it was too soon right after B5 ended to be making an almost entirely new franchise and spin off. Also, the concept for Lost Tales was apparently basically what season six would have been (if you go by what Koenig said in that interview I mentioned). Legend of the Rangers was pretty bad, it had some really hokey lines and as you said it was trying to set up...more First Ones who are even more scary and weird than the other First Ones? Ok. I'm sure there was a much greater plan than that but Rangers just felt like a pointless pilot and another missed opportunity to use the original cast for some more stories. Then Lost Tales comes around in 2007 just as Netflix is becoming popular but far too long before the era of original streaming series which Lost Tales would have been perfect for. Will be interesting to hear how well B5 is doing on HBO Max and if that ever leads to any new content.
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The Psi Corps trilogy didn't expand much on the war. By the third book the war was over and there was huge time skip Bester being 80. All they mentioned were death camps ran by corpse and some people like Bester being hunted as war criminals. Or is there another trilogy besides the Psi Corps trilogy? It's the only one I have read.
... Wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Second book was pretty cool. It followed Bester from childhood to his first trip to B5. There was all kinds of shadowy build ups that adds much to the show. Third book was just ridiculous. Basically romance novel between 80 year old Bester and his 20 something french babe.
But I'm still going to read the Centaury trilogy. I still need to track down the last book for cheap price. I got first two under 10$ but the last one runs at 30-40$.
It's not more cheesy than TNG and DS9. If you can get through those, you're fine.
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Has anyone read JMS's autobiography? There's some dark stuff in there, especially with his father's background.
It puts some of the show's content in a new light for me.
The books kind of give a basic overview of the events and what happened. It doesn't go fully into the war or is about the war, but they summarize it's events. Basically same thing with the Centauri trilogy and books, where they kind of explain what happened with Crusade without going into detail. "oh yea that happened, neat"
I guess I'm gonna be the guy that says, if you aren't feeling it go ahead and skip season 1. It's how I originally watched the show and now it's one of my favorite TV shows ever. You can always go back to it later.
I know you were probably expecting this, but I can't abide this... If you can't handle Bby5 at its Season 1, you don't deserve Bby5 at its Season 4 tbh. The 90s feel of the show doesn't just dissipate after season 1. Sure season 1 has some cornier individual episode plots (there's a monster of the week episode that is kind of eye-rolly) but season 1 is filled to the brim with meaningful character development and half a dozen (at least) mandatory episodes. The reason die hards think Babylon 5 is the best sci fi show of all time is because of the way it teases intricate details about it's meta narrative from the very beginning and reaps the harvest of dozens of seeds planted in those early episodes
I say if someone is bouncing off the show based on its age and the era in which it was created, just do something better with your life. End of the day, it's just a piece of fiction. It's masterful fiction (imo) but it's one piece of fiction in a world with more amazing stories than any one person could experience in their whole lifetime. There's something out there more suited to your tastes if you can't handle some rough CGI and hackneyed plots
Jesus...no. Don't skip season 1. I don't understand this predilection towards skipping entire seasons of good shows. A lot of the reason that they're good is because of character and plot work in the "bad" seasons, as well as the sense that the shows earned it through growth.
I've been watching this for the first time, halfway through season 5. My controversial take, season 5 might be the worst season, and the Neil Gaiman written episode is one of the worst of the series.
The amount of crap season 1 of B5 gets compared to the early runs of other shows like TNG is ridiculous. I've been watching and rewatching the show on and off for well over 20 years now and just when I think I've caught every last fascinating clue or last little bit of foreshadowing in the first season another comes along to surprise me. Example, I was recently rewatching A Cry in the Wilderness 1&2 and regarding Londo's role in those two episodes...
So yeah, whether it's season 1 or later, this is the show that keeps on giving.
Season 5 is indeed rough at times. The way JMS tries to force feed the audience into liking and approving of Lochley is absolutely obnoxious at times and Byron and his cult of rogue Teeps all just come off as unlikeable and barely sympathetic. And regarding the Neil Gaiman episode, aside from being a cheese fest, I was super annoyed that
But you're past the worst. Second half is for the most part really good and the 5-6 episodes leading up to Sleeping in Light are fantastic.
...the alien caretaker of the Great Machine on Epsilon 3 appears to Draal, Delenn and Londo because as Draal says 'We all possess the quality of self sacrifice' and then they all go on the rescue mission together. This line made sense for Draal and Delenn but always flew over my head for Londo because Londo in S1 is peak "Greedy, goofball, drunk, party-all-the-time Londo." But after rewatching the episode recently I was blown away when I realized that line basically foretells how Londo sacrifices himself much later in S5 to the Keeper in order to prevent the Drakh from setting off the fusion bombs planted on Centauri Prime, not to mention making G'Kar kill him in War Without End so the Keeper is distracted long enough for Sheridan and Delenn to escape.
Season 5 is indeed rough at times. The way JMS tries to force feed the audience into liking and approving of Lochley is absolutely obnoxious at times and Byron and his cult of rogue Teeps all just come off as unlikeable and barely sympathetic. And regarding the Neil Gaiman episode, aside from being a cheese fest, I was super annoyed that
because of the way the episode is set up, the message from Kosh to Sheridan is just reduced to some dumb throwaway line by Lochley which falls flat.
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The front half of season 5 is pretty bad, it redeems itself in the second half though.