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TradedHats

Member
Mar 8, 2018
3,671
All these "Won't get my money" people probably wouldn't have even bought the game in its first year anyway. Happy that he was able to make a deal that will hopefully help him out with other important expenses for his family. Also, just use Playnite. I'd still be using it if EGS wasn't even a thing.
 

Deleted member 19533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,873
Epic really seems keen on pushing PC gamers back to console gaming.

All these "Won't get my money" people probably wouldn't have even bought the game in its first year anyway. Happy that he was able to make a deal that will hopefully help him out with other important expenses for his family.
Yeah, that's definitely not accurate. Personally it's pushed me towards console versions and rebuying on Steam later on the cheap.

Epic's numbers also show little growth even with the pandemic. So, that says it all. People don't like Epic.
Do people get as mad about other PC games that are exclusive to a storefront that isn't Steam or EGS? Like Crash Bandicoot 4, Mirror's Edge 2, etc.
Probably a mixed bag. I bought Mirror's Edge 2 on PC. I also use GoG. But I'm not big on using a ton of launchers. Especially bad ones.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,585
Do people get as mad about other PC games that are exclusive to a storefront that isn't Steam or EGS? Like Crash Bandicoot 4, Mirror's Edge 2, etc.

Not "mad" because it's their game, but I'm certainly not buying.

Edit: I think I missed something about Mirror's Edge 2, you mean Catalyst? It's at Steam.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Epic really seems keen on pushing PC gamers back to console gaming.
I don't see how buying a console is going to offer a better experience and on top of that have to pay to play online, especially when not one console has all the games that people seem to argue against with why they don't like PC gaming fractured.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,585
I don't see how buying a console is going to offer a better experience and on top of that have to pay to play online, especially when not one console has all the games that people seem to argue against with why they don't like PC gaming fractured.

At least I trust PSN/XLive will last more than any other PC launcher.
 

Deleted member 19533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,873
I don't see how buying a console is going to offer a better experience and on top of that have to pay to play online, especially when not one console has all the games that people seem to argue against with why they don't like PC gaming fractured.
Putting a lot of words in my mouth there. Who said anything about a better experience? I just don't support Epic.

It's like this: I have a playstation and a PC, you tell me "fuck you" on my preferred platform, so I use my other one. I don't need the best experience, but I can have it later repurchasing on Steam if I want, which I did mention in that post.

There's zero reason for me to even consider supporting them. They're trying to force people to. Fuck them.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,811
Yes, as I said before this happens in every thread where a new game is announced as EGS. There are also lots of people who are excited to play this, even if it's on EGS. The only thing to me that really matters at the end of the day are 2 things. 1, are people enjoying the game? If the store is that bad then they won't come back and things will settle down like everything else does. 2, is the developer able to keep financing the games we enjoy? Once we hear from developers being public they made the wrong choice with EGS and stop doing these deals. If they do that then there is the answer you are looking for.

I won't argue against anything you said here since you prefaced everything with "for me". I respect your opinion even though I don't share it.

Just like anything the developer will find out whether it was worth it or not to them. If you see the same developer do the same contract with their next game that will tell you all you need to know.

Such an event will tell us if a developer thinks that the deal was good for themselves. It doesn't really answer the question about the long-term effects on the platform and other developers.

There might be a fair argument in here regarding the long term revenue, but I am guessing the TIMED exclusivity helps hedge against this. Meaning - once the title finally hits steam, or GOG, etc... There is a subset who of users who will snub their nose at buying it due to the fact that they aren't a fan of EGS (or EGS practices, etc..), there is a subset of users who will no longer care about the game enough to buy it, and then there are those who will likely purchase the game on their platform of choice at some point now that it's available.

Time will tell, it is too soon to say with any certainty. My main worry is that frustrated customers will reduce their spending or turn to piracy. Steam has been so successful in bringing in customers because it made the process of buying and playing a game very simple and it wrapped each game in a set of features that provide increased value compared to the same copy on a different, more barebones service or a pirated copy.

So if you now have a situation in which you have to juggle ten different launchers that don't actually add anything, there is a very real risk that part of the customer base will decide that paying for a game is not worth it and turn to pirating it. Such a development would have horrific consequences for the market and the thousands of developers that rely on it for their livelihood.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,030
As long as the developer gets paid, then this is great. I can wait to play this game if the developer behind it gets a good payday. I bought Axiom Verge multiple times because the developer was trying to raise money for a child with an illness.

People who know the backstory of this and are still upset that maybe you have to launch the game using a different program on your computer, or you can't play it right away on your console, get some perspective.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
At least I trust PSN/XLive will last more than any other PC launcher.

I don't. Many online servers have been shut down on PSN and backwards compatibility is hit and miss.
Putting a lot of words in my mouth there. Who said anything about a better experience? I just don't support Epic.

It's like this: I have a playstation and a PC, you tell me "fuck you" on my preferred platform, so I use my other one. I don't need the best experience, but I can have it later repurchasing on Steam if I want, which I did mention in that post.

There's zero reason for me to even consider supporting them. They're trying to force people to. Fuck them.

Odd argument when the console is even worse when it comes to the same issues you seem to have with Epic. Timed deals, limited functionality, limited controller support, limited mod support, etc.

I won't argue against anything you said here since you prefaced everything with "for me". I respect your opinion even though I don't share it.

Such an event will tell us if a developer thinks that the deal was good for themselves. It doesn't really answer the question about the long-term effects on the platform and other developers.

Time will tell, it is too soon to say with any certainty. My main worry is that frustrated customers will reduce their spending or turn to piracy. Steam has been so successful in bringing in customers because it made the process of buying and playing a game very simple and it wrapped each game in a set of features that provide increased value compared to the same copy on a different, more barebones service or a pirated copy.

So if you now have a situation in which you have to juggle ten different launchers that don't actually add anything, there is a very real risk that part of the customer base will decide that paying for a game is not worth it and turn to pirating it. Such a development would have horrific consequences for the market and the thousands of developers that rely on it for their livelihood.

This seems to be the caveat you want to hold Epic to regardless of any other variables that might explain dips in consumer spending or habits. We already have multiple launchers, you cannot just pin everything on Epic.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,811
This seems to be the caveat you want to hold Epic to regardless of any other variables that might explain dips in consumer spending or habits. We already have multiple launchers, you cannot just pin everything on Epic.

I neither can nor want to pin everything on Epic. In exactly the same vein, I believe it cannot be reasonably argued that Epic has nothing to do with the drop in revenue. It is a matter that has to be discussed and cannot be dismissed. There is something to talk about here. There is a valid argument to be made that Epic is poisoning the well.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Yeah, but servers for first party games that weren't on PC in the first place. BC with PS4 is perfect.

No it's not.

Crytek's Robinson: The Journey For PSVR Won't Work On PS5

You can't even play titles that were previously available on PSN, on a PS5.

Sony has struggled with BC over the years and some games on Xbox are not all BC either.

I neither can nor want to pin everything on Epic. In exactly the same vein, I believe it cannot be reasonably argued that Epic has nothing to do with the drop in revenue. It is a matter that has to be discussed and cannot be dismissed. There is something to talk about here. There is a valid argument to be made that Epic is poisoning the well.

Most if not all of these deals or simply timed. You are free to wait and others are free to express their opinion looking forward to this and other games earlier. So I'm not sure the word poison is the right phrase. If we see less PC support overall in the future then you may have an argument but for now it looks like more games are coming to the platform, not less.

There is really no point in arguing any further because it's not going to go anywhere, and I am not going to hold anything against your decision, it is your money after all.
 

Deleted member 19533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,873
Odd argument when the console is even worse when it comes to the same issues you seem to have with Epic. Timed deals, limited functionality, limited controller support, limited mod support, etc.
Epic is trying to take over the PC space with a terrible platform. IE, ruin a platform for their betterment. Not at all the same. And nah, epic is way worse with the timed deals. They've announced more in the last few days than I can even think of consoles having in the last few years. Unless of course you're conflating minor dlc content with full games. Which I'm pretty sure is the case given your argument style thus far.

Consoles work properly and I can use the controller I want. That's good enough for a playthrough experience in most instances. Sometimes I will wait entirely, but it's a case by case basis.

There's literally zero reason to wait on a game like the one this topic's about though.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,372

Any PS1, PSP, Vita, or PS3 game. There's also a handful of PS4 games that don't work on the PS5 (or turn on but are heavily glitched like the PS2 Classic on PS4 Okage: Shadow King).

I get that the PS3 was a weird system that's hard to emulate and PSP & Vita are handheld systems, but the PS5 really ought to support PSN copies of PS1 games. The PSP was able to emulate the PS1 easily, for goodness sake.
 

Quacktion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,479
Normally I would be annoyed, but knowing the circumstances yea get that paper dude. Its gonna make most of its bank on Switch anyway :P
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,585
Any PS1, PSP, Vita, or PS3 game. There's also a handful of PS4 games that don't work on the PS5 (or turn on but are heavily glitched like the PS2 Classic on PS4 Okage: Shadow King).

I get that the PS3 was a weird system that's hard to emulate and PSP & Vita are handheld systems, but the PS5 really ought to support PSN copies of PS1 games. The PSP was able to emulate the PS1 easily, for goodness sake.

I thought he was talking about PS4 games.

Yeah it's not BC with all systems and it sucks. But servers to download PS3/Vita games are still on, unlike things like the Discord launcher.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,811
No it's not.

Crytek's Robinson: The Journey For PSVR Won't Work On PS5



Sony has struggled with BC over the years and some games on Xbox are not all BC either.



Most if not all of these deals or simply timed. You are free to wait and others are free to express their opinion looking forward to this and other games earlier. So I'm not sure the word poison is the right phrase. If we see less PC support overall in the future then you may have an argument but for now it looks like more games are coming to the platform, not less.

There is really no point in arguing any further because it's not going to go anywhere, and I am not going to hold anything against your decision, it is your money after all.

Thank you for the calm and reasonable discussion. I wish we could all maintain that level of discourse throughout the forum even when we disagree.
 

Deleted member 19533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,873
Any PS1, PSP, Vita, or PS3 game. There's also a handful of PS4 games that don't work on the PS5 (or turn on but are heavily glitched like the PS2 Classic on PS4 Okage: Shadow King).

I get that the PS3 was a weird system that's hard to emulate and PSP & Vita are handheld systems, but the PS5 really ought to support PSN copies of PS1 games. The PSP was able to emulate the PS1 easily, for goodness sake.
It is a weird omission. For sure. I know PS2 and 3 are far more difficult, but it seems they have a good emulator solution for the PS2 largely in place since that's how the classics work.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Thank you for the calm and reasonable discussion. I wish we could all maintain that level of discourse throughout the forum even when we disagree.

I love the hobby, games have been part of my life for over 40 years now. What's really odd is I bought a Switch recently and I am getting so much enjoyment out of that even with the limited performance and I play 99% of the time docked.

You've always been level headed, much appreciated. It's obvious a store like Steam was made for PC purists and Epic is really only getting away with what they are doing because they have the financial backing to keep going. Some of the games I bought rely on other launchers anyways like Red Dead Redemption 2 and The Divison 2. The PC was heading to multiple launchers anyways.
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
Don't care for exclusivity, but I never got what's so great about Steam. Since Steam started doing regional pricing they are treating me like If I live in the USA or Europe. At least epic has good promos. Not going to lie, I don't care about features any other than mod and controller support.
Pricing is the one main driver for my purchases, and I'll go to whomever offers the best price.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Epic is trying to take over the PC space with a terrible platform. IE, ruin a platform for their betterment. Not at all the same. And nah, epic is way worse with the timed deals. They've announced more in the last few days than I can even think of consoles having in the last few years. Unless of course you're conflating minor dlc content with full games. Which I'm pretty sure is the case given your argument style thus far.

Consoles work properly and I can use the controller I want. That's good enough for a playthrough experience in most instances. Sometimes I will wait entirely, but it's a case by case basis.

There's literally zero reason to wait on a game like the one this topic's about though.
How is it not the same that has occurred on game consoles? Sony for example has made franchises like Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy and Street Fighter Playstation titles over the years. In one corner you have Epic trying to fight Steam but those games come to Steam usually within 6 months to a year and most times day of date on game consoles. Then you have titles like FFVII Remake that are almost a year old with no planned release on anything but Playstation.

This is why it's hypocritical to call one out and not support it but do the complete opposite on another platform. One is excluding everyone and forcing people to buy the appropriate hardware while the other is trying to promote their store over Steam.

I think what is happening is on two levels, some are beginning to wonder if that 30% cut is worth it anymore to them (especially for bigger franchises) and the other are smaller developers who rightfully will want guaranteed revenue.
 

Deleted member 19533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,873
How is it not the same that has occurred on game consoles? Sony for example has made franchises like Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy and Street Fighter Playstation titles over the years. In one corner you have Epic trying to fight Steam but those games come to Steam usually within 6 months to a year and most times day of date on game consoles. Then you have titles like FFVII Remake that are almost a year old with no planned release on anything but Playstation.

This is why it's hypocritical to call one out and not support it but do the complete opposite on another platform. One is excluding everyone and forcing people to buy the appropriate hardware while the other is trying to promote their store over Steam.

I think what is happening is on two levels, some are beginning to wonder if that 30% cut is worth it anymore to them (especially for bigger franchises) and the other are smaller developers who rightfully will want guaranteed revenue.
And yet they'll put their games on console which ask for the same cut. Developers get what they pay for. Steam is far better, and everyone knows it. They're doing this to get guaranteed money up front, and they know the flood gates will open again when it goes on Steam.

You should also look at the history of those games if you want explanation for them. but I'm sure you know why they were exclusive already. A lot of them had to do with the third party wanting to just put it on that platform, not necessarily a deal like what happens today.
 

Captain of Outer Space

Come Sale Away With Me
Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,349
Happy for Tom to secure funding to help his family out and relieve financial stress on them for the time being. Excited for this game.
 

Deleted member 17184

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,240
The whole discussion about PC revenue is complicated because the whole space is changing with subscription services such as Game Pass getting more members. For example, I certainly won't be paying as much for Microsoft (and soon EA) games until 2023 as I would've if these services didn't exist. And yet I'm playing more games than ever before.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
And yet they'll put their games on console which ask for the same cut. Developers get what they pay for. Steam is far better, and everyone knows it. They're doing this to get guaranteed money up front, and they know the flood gates will open again when it goes on Steam.

You should also look at the history of those games if you want explanation for them. but I'm sure you know why they were exclusive already. A lot of them had to do with the third party wanting to just put it on that platform, not necessarily a deal like what happens today.
Look up what history? Of course Sony wants to promote those games and all the other third party deals they have going on, that's why they have them announced at E3 or their online videos. No different than Epic announcing yesterday all the games coming. Sony entered this business by aligning key titles from day one, Epic is trying to do the same thing against Steam.

Biggest difference is Epic is not requiring you to buy additional hardware which is why they will not get the same loyalty from consumers. They will just pick and choose the games they feel they need to play right away and then just move over to Steam which is a better store. Once you buy console hardware you are more likely to stay there and this is how Sony brilliantly has done it ever since the first Playstation with games like Ridge Racer and Final Fantasy and they still do today with third party relations. They are not doing this to help the developers any more than Epic is other than it's a larger platform for them. Now Sony has more leverage to get these deals and it keeps compounding until one day they get the lions share of all third party. Is this any more healthy for the consumer who now has less choice if they go somewhere else?
 

Eppcetera

Member
Mar 3, 2018
1,909
Personally, I don't really care about the timed exclusivity. I'll get the game some time after it comes out on Switch, and if I have to wait months or an extra year or whatever, it doesn't matter to me. I played the first game five years after its release, and I can't say when I'll play this game. It's not like I won't have other games I can play in the meantime.

I think some people are a little too impatient.

Any PS1, PSP, Vita, or PS3 game. There's also a handful of PS4 games that don't work on the PS5 (or turn on but are heavily glitched like the PS2 Classic on PS4 Okage: Shadow King).

I get that the PS3 was a weird system that's hard to emulate and PSP & Vita are handheld systems, but the PS5 really ought to support PSN copies of PS1 games. The PSP was able to emulate the PS1 easily, for goodness sake.

Apparently, the issue with PS1 and PS2 classics on the PS4 and PS5 relates to the trophy system. From what I gathered, every single game on the PS4 and PS5 needs to implement trophies, so PS1 and PS2 games need to have trophies added before they can become available on the newer Sony consoles. Since adding trophies to old games is a big pain, no developer wants to do this, since the effort isn't worth what little money the PS1 and PS2 classics generate (especially if purchases of PS1 and PS2 games carried over from the PS3/Vita to the PS4/PS5). That's why developers prefer remastering their games for the PS4 and PS5.

If this is true, as someone who believes Trophies/Achievements are total nonsense, I think the situation totally sucks.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Personally, I don't really care about the timed exclusivity. I'll get the game some time after it comes out on Switch, and if I have to wait months or an extra year or whatever, it doesn't matter to me. I played the first game five years after its release, and I can't say when I'll play this game. It's not like I won't have other games I can play in the meantime.

I think some people are a little too impatient.



Apparently, the issue with PS1 and PS2 classics on the PS4 and PS5 relates to the trophy system. From what I gathered, every single game on the PS4 and PS5 needs to implement trophies, so PS1 and PS2 games need to have trophies added before they can become available on the newer Sony consoles. Since adding trophies to old games is a big pain, no developer wants to do this, since the effort isn't worth what little money the PS1 and PS2 classics generate (especially if purchases of PS1 and PS2 games carried over from the PS3/Vita to the PS4/PS5). That's why developers prefer remastering their games for the PS4 and PS5.

If this is true, as someone who believes Trophies/Achievements are total nonsense, I think the situation totally sucks.
So we have to have trophies support or no games even if they are many years old? Seems like a weird decision and one I think all of the community would just accept as it is what it is as long as it's there.
 

Bastardo

Member
Nov 2, 2017
14
Too all developers signing with epic for your highly anticipated game: if you want guaranteed money, ask us gamers for it. I would have no problem crowdfunding him with double the price of the previous game. I bought av1 twice myself and gifted it two times to other people because I love it so much.

I will not buy it for the epic store. Instead I will buy it discounted after a year for Steam trying to avoid spoilers.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,372
Too all developers signing with epic for your highly anticipated game: if you want guaranteed money, ask us gamers for it. I would have no problem crowdfunding him with double the price of the previous game. I bought av1 twice myself and gifted it two times to other people because I love it so much.

Running a successful kickstarter can be very stressful and videogame kickstarters don't make the kind of money these days that they used to. There's early access but that's better for roguelikes & other highly replayable games rather than traditional 1P games. And well, a storefront saying "Here's a million dollars (or whatever) if you make your game exclusive to our store for a year" is guaranteed money. Running a Kickstarter campaign or doing an early access game is not.
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
6,104
Pakistan
Do people get as mad about other PC games that are exclusive to a storefront that isn't Steam or EGS? Like Crash Bandicoot 4, Mirror's Edge 2, etc.
I mean if 3rd party games are paid by as someone as epic who's head has talked shitty stuff openly on twitter not only but also has a record of being ok with taking games off platforms being used by a lot of people just after those said games launched on that platform tells a lot about his character as chief of a company that intends on appealing to customers and how little he respects customers in general and then you have a company buying off timed exclusives in the name of competition in the PC gaming space where there is no set precedent like this on this scale because the PC platform has been all about openness and choice and Sweeny's antics do the opposite and attract the ire of the customers that use the platform that is the most mature and most feature rich...

Anyways you do know that games like crash 4 or mirror's edge 2 are exclusive to the pub's own ecosystem right? Its different to 3rd party games that traditionally have never been timed exclusive for a year or more and have been offered on each storefront.. Ofcourse people will get mad/upset/disappointed over it. It directly affects their hobby. Developers who communicate/know their customer's hobbies should know this first hand infact.
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
6,104
Pakistan
All these "Won't get my money" people probably wouldn't have even bought the game in its first year anyway. Happy that he was able to make a deal that will hopefully help him out with other important expenses for his family. Also, just use Playnite. I'd still be using it if EGS wasn't even a thing.
How do you know that the people who specifically said that they won't buy the game and wait will not buy the game at all regardless? I wanted BL3 day 1 but since it was EGS iam now waiting for it to go on a deeper sale to buy it, same with sinking city. Same with outer worlds.. a lot of people already bought some of the games that came back to steam and on a 50% discount. If you research then you'd see how big of a spike some of the returning egs exclusive games to steam, saw in their sales.... believe it or not... PC gamers have mastered waiting for releases thanks to console exclusivity...