• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Jobbs

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,639
how is whining about EGS still a thing? It's 2021 now.

If you don't want to use EGS, then don't use it, but driving by the threads to whine about it and make sure everyone knows how much you're not going to play insert innocent indie dev's game here is just trolling at this point

Good for Thomas. This partnership surely helped him make the game the best it could be without worry.
 
Last edited:

JaredTaco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
709
Met Happ a few years ago at E3. He's a really cool dude who is passionate for both the game and supporting his family. Congrats on the Epic deal and look forward to Axiom Verge 2.
 

OnionPowder

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,323
Orlando, FL
I remember Happ having some financial issues due to healthcare expenses. I get it, financial security is something awesome. Especially when you have kids you gotta take care of. Hope the game does well for him, the first one was pretty cool.
 

Yabberwocky

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,239
Considering the utter hell Happ went through with Badland Publishing whilst having to pay for his son's medical bills with the first Axiom Verge, having some stability and money up front via EGS sounds very sensible to me after the horrific experience Happ had.

I feel like most people don't understand the realities of indie development. You work on a project for months or even years, not earning a cent from it, as you spend your savings if you have them or wrack up debt. Once it comes out, you're waiting anywhere from 1 month to 4.5 months before you actually get paid from any of the storefronts, depending on when you released & the payment schedule of the storefront you're working with. And though games are usually front-loaded with sales, successful games frequently make a lot of their money over time (discount sales, ports, etc.). And of course, there's no guarantee that when the game comes out, people actually buy it and you get money that's worth the amount of time & effort you put into the game. For a new developer, it's like....

0.001% chance of having a big indie success (the kind where even non-indie game fans have heard of the game & it sells a bunch)
0.1% chance of having a success (the kind of game that most people haven't heard of, but it sold well enough to cover your costs & put some money in savings)
1-5% chance of breaking even (no one's heard of this outside hardcore fans, but it's a living)
95%+ chance of losing money (even people on hardcore gaming forums probably haven't heard of this)

And as you gain experience, build a fanbase, and make smart decisions, those positive chances go up to the point where if you've been doing it for a while, keep your costs low, and don't do anything too stupid, each new game you release will probably at least break even for you. But it's still an incredibly stressful line of work.

Any indie developer who takes a good exclusivity deal is just looking out for their own (and their family's) mental, emotional, and physical well being.

Fantastic post.

Yeah, I can vouch for this. the LRG owners also have said as recently as a month ago that badland STILL hasn't returned the money they stole from Tom's son or LRG themselves, despite signing a bunch of random new games for physical prints and digital eShop titles. They're utter horrific scum and the worst of the worst: an EGS deal for Tom is gonna help a TREMENDOUS amount and is absolutely worth him taking without hesitation: Epic is way more trustworthy than Badland by far and I don't blame tom in the slightest. TBH, it's still absurdly silly to skip out on a good game like this *just* because of a store app on the desktop. I get it not having a lot of features steam has (in fact, the lack of achievements is why I just stick to the free games for now and wait for them to be added before actually buying from there since I get more value via the steam versions), and the horrendous regional pricing, but the fact some folk outright use it as an excuse to boycott or hassle devs over getting guaranteed stability with their game just upsets me. Waiting for the exclusivity to be lifted is totally reasonable: getting angry at the dev especially in a case like this isn't.

100% yes to this, and also urghhh at the bolded, I'd been wondering if the situation with Badland had resolved at all. Wow.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,179
I remember Happ having some financial issues due to healthcare expenses. I get it, financial security is something awesome. Especially when you have kids you gotta take care of. Hope the game does well for him, the first one was pretty cool.
Given how popular the first one was and this deal, I'm sure Epic is going to throw a bigass splash thing on the launcher as will Valve once it hits Steam. That sort of attention will do wonders.
 
Oct 25, 2017
15,110
These deal announcements just make me think of the 2020 Epic store numbers they posted recently. Good on the dev for getting paid, but unless Axiom Verge 2 is going to be one of those free titles or somehow part of Fortnite, it might as well not be on PC, because barely anyone actually buys games on there.
 

Deckerd

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
141
This topic is about Axiom 2 being an EGS exclusive. My opinion on that is I don't like it and won't bother buying it unless it comes to steam.

I game with a steam controller and making it work with other launchers is a pain in the ass. Might work, might not. I can't be bothered with it. There are tons of games to play.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
Nice to see it's just a timed exclusive. The developer gets paid, and I'll play other indie games until it either arrives on Steam, or costs $5 with one of Epic's coupons.

The funny thing is Epic keeps buying these timed exclusives, while the big breakout indie hits keep happening on Steam. Like I've said before, Epic pays to block a Steam release, and another game immediately fills that spot.
 

ArjanN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,095
The Epic store sucks but since it's just a timed exclusive and a tiny dev: eh. Just take Epic's money up front for your kid and I'll pick it up when it hits Steam.
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,337
I loved Axiom Verge so much, I'd buy AV2 even if I could only buy it on fucking laserdisc.

Really excited for it.
 

ty_hot

Banned
Dec 14, 2017
7,176
So weird to read about people that loved the first but wont buy it now because EGS... he even wrote that this was the best decision for his family. But hey, go on pretending that your dozen dollars will bring EGS to its knees! And dont forget to come back to other thread and say how much you want developers to be respected and paid fairly!
 

InspectorJones

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,618
The funny thing is Epic keeps buying these timed exclusives, while the big breakout indie hits keep happening on Steam. Like I've said before, Epic pays to block a Steam release, and another game immediately fills that spot.

Ita why Tim Sweeney approach in running a highly curated and controlled storefront is going to fail. Look right now at a game like Valheim selling a million plus copies in about a week and then compare to how we never ever hear about such news on the EGS front. They're never going to prevent all the frequent huge hits from hitting Steam and part of the reason is no one can predict what will be successful.

Great for the Developer pocketing Tim's Cash, and hopefully their Steam launch is a big success after the hostage situation is over.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,463
how is whining about EGS still a thing? It's 2021 now.

People will always complain about timed exclusives no matter where.

So weird to read about people that loved the first but wont buy it now because EGS... he even wrote that this was the best decision for his family. But hey, go on pretending that your dozen dollars will bring EGS to its knees! And dont forget to come back to other thread and say how much you want developers to be respected and paid fairly!

Epic pays him a X amount of sales upfront, if you want to support the best option is to buy on Switch.

I never buy indies there but I'll do it now that I know about his son and publishing problems.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,967
Canada
So weird to read about people that loved the first but wont buy it now because EGS... he even wrote that this was the best decision for his family. But hey, go on pretending that your dozen dollars will bring EGS to its knees! And dont forget to come back to other thread and say how much you want developers to be respected and paid fairly!
Cool except it doesn't matter? Epic paid Thomas hundreds of thousands if not a million+ for exclusivity. If people want to wait a year and buy it then who cares? He's still getting money. Just because you like a game but wait a year to buy the sequel because you don't like it being timed exclusive to a platform doesn't make you any less of a fan.

Plus its already known since Epic leaked their own exclusivity agreement that its possible Thomas won't even see a penny from EGS sales outside the exclusivity deal until a specific sales threshold is reached anyway, and If that's the case then buying it on Switch/Waiting for Steam is the better option in terms of supporting the dev because you're money would actually go to them.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,125
So weird to read about people that loved the first but wont buy it now because EGS... he even wrote that this was the best decision for his family. But hey, go on pretending that your dozen dollars will bring EGS to its knees! And dont forget to come back to other thread and say how much you want developers to be respected and paid fairly!
He already gets the money from being on EGS, I don't see what would be so bad if people waited a year and bought it on Steam. It would probably make him even more money since Epic generally offer a minimum of guaranteed sales.
 

sheaaaa

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,556
Much like the likes of Hitman 3 and Outer Wilds, I'm glad he's getting paid - especially with his family situation - and I'll happily wait a year and pick it up on Steam.
 

Deleted member 18324

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
678
So weird to read about people that loved the first but wont buy it now because EGS... he even wrote that this was the best decision for his family. But hey, go on pretending that your dozen dollars will bring EGS to its knees! And dont forget to come back to other thread and say how much you want developers to be respected and paid fairly!

To illustrate how pointless this argument is: if I wanted to support Happ's family the best way to do that is with a Steam purchase, since EGS has already paid him an advance on sales there whereas the Steam purchase will actually generate revenue beyond that advance.

Secondly - turning selling videogames into a perverse form of gofundme for indies, and then using that to try and shame customers, is a new low point for discussion of this topic.
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,429
Exclusive deals are fine regardless of the size of the teams making them. The hate for exclusives is so weird to see and out of place with the realities of how services work.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,179
265m is the equivalent of less than 5m copies sold at $60, for an entire store in an entire year.

For a comparaison, just Miles Morales made close to that entire revenue in seven weeks.
During a pandemic where everyone else saw substantial uplifts in spending with everyone at home.

While giving out a shit ton of games for free to millions of people.
 

Delusibeta

Prophet of Truth
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,648
EGS' earnings are much smaller than their competitor(s?), there is no arguing that. I just don't believe that 265 million can be considered insignificant in general but that's just me.
The other issue is that it's only 5% higher than last year. Under normal circumstances, given the hundreds of millions of dollars Epic sunk on giveaways (they gave away GTA V and a new Total War game last year, among dozens of other games) and coupons ($10 off a $15 purchase, with a new coupon granted with every game you buy, is a fine way to lose money), a 5% increase would be very disappointing.

However, last year was not normal circumstances, and basically all forms of home entertainment saw radical increases in demand. Steam saw a 20% increase in the number of games they've sold. PSN is closer to 30% up on revenue. In that context, a 5% increase represents falling behind the competition, and a clear indication something is badly wrong.
 

Mass_Pincup

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,125
EGS' earnings are much smaller than their competitor(s?), there is no arguing that. I just don't believe that 265 million can be considered insignificant in general but that's just me.
When you factor in the amount of games released on EGS just this year (281) it makes an average of less than a 1m spent per games. At a $20 price point that would make about 47 thousands copies sold in average per game. That's extremely low and not anywhere near enough for an AAA game to break even, let alone an indie studios or devs.

Thankfully Epic is paying the difference so every timed exclusives is making money but having barely anyone spending money on your store with a 160m userbase (which would make an average spending of less than $2 per users or less than $5 for their monthly active users for an entire year) is troubling to say the least.
 

cheesekao

Member
Dec 1, 2017
2,756
The other issue is that it's only 5% higher than last year. Under normal circumstances, given the hundreds of millions of dollars Epic sunk on giveaways (they gave away GTA V and a new Total War game last year, among dozens of other games) and coupons ($10 off a $15 purchase, with a new coupon granted with every game you buy, is a fine way to lose money), a 5% increase would be very disappointing.

However, last year was not normal circumstances, and basically all forms of home entertainment saw radical increases in demand. Steam saw a 20% increase in the number of games they've sold. PSN is closer to 30% up on revenue. In that context, a 5% increase represents falling behind the competition, and a clear indication something is badly wrong.
When you factor in the amount of games released on EGS just this year (281) it makes an average of less than a 1m spent per games. At a $20 price point that would make about 47 thousands copies sold in average per game. That's extremely low and not anywhere near enough for an AAA game to break even, let alone an indie studios or devs.

Thankfully Epic is paying the difference so every timed exclusives is making money but having barely anyone spending money on your store with a 160m userbase (which would make an average spending of less than $2 per users or less than $5 for their monthly active users for an entire year) is troubling to say the least.
Yes, I'm aware that the EGS is stagnating and that's an issue. The thing is, what criteria does a store has to fulfill to be able to obtain the "nobody uses it" status? "If it's not performing as well as the big boys, they're automatically irrelevant" is not a line of thought I subscribe to. Of course, direct comparison with competitors can sometimes be useful but I don't see it as the end all be all.
 

Deleted member 17184

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,240
Ita why Tim Sweeney approach in running a highly curated and controlled storefront is going to fail. Look right now at a game like Valheim selling a million plus copies in about a week and then compare to how we never ever hear about such news on the EGS front. They're never going to prevent all the frequent huge hits from hitting Steam and part of the reason is no one can predict what will be successful.

Great for the Developer pocketing Tim's Cash, and hopefully their Steam launch is a big success after the hostage situation is over.
"Hostage situation" is a bit much, isn't it? Whether you like it or not it's one thing, but the developer made a conscious deal here.
 

Deleted member 1698

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,254
Exclusive deals are fine regardless of the size of the teams making them. The hate for exclusives is so weird to see and out of place with the realities of how services work.

It equates to an effective release delay of 1 year. Why are you saying you cannot hate that this happened?

Identify the reality, sure. But that doesn't mean you need to like it.
 
May 19, 2020
4,828
man wants to get paid to take care of his fam. i guarantee none of you people would turn down epic money over some fake ass video game message board morality
 

Nateo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,513
EGS' earnings are much smaller than their competitor(s?), there is no arguing that. I just don't believe that 265 million can be considered insignificant in general but that's just me.
Its super insignificant in context. Sure 265 million is a lot to a normal person. But for a store selling AAA games it is very very very bad.
 

TinTuba47

Member
Nov 14, 2017
3,780
I can't bring myself to hate EGS.

I definitely prefer Steam, but with EGS I get free games, devs get paid more, and now Steam has a refund policy which I use.

multiple launchers are a bit annoying but EGS is worth it.
 

Badcoo

Member
May 9, 2018
1,605
I couldn't enjoy the 1st one that much even though i loved metriod-vania games. Maybe I'll enjoy this one.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,795
how is whining about EGS still a thing? It's 2021 now.

If you don't want to use EGS, then don't use it, but driving by the threads to whine about it and make sure everyone knows how much you're not going to play insert innocent indie dev's game here is just trolling at this point

Good for Thomas. This partnership surely helped him make the game the best it could be without worry.

The subject of the thread is "the PC version of game x is exclusive to EGS". There are two main reactions: Some people are saying "yay, I approve of this" and others are saying "boo, I don't approve of this". Both opinions are equally valid, both opinions can and should be expressed and neither side should be silenced. "Trolling" has a very specific meaning and it shouldn't be used as a means of shutting down a valid and well reasoned opinion we don't agree with.