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Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
First step to reclaiming Superman is to make him Clark, first and foremost. Make Superman the act instead of the core of the person's character.

Granted, Snyderverse sort of did that, but in a bad way with their reluctant Superman. But it doesn't need to be that. It needs to be a human man who puts on the image of the incorruptible, undefeatable Superman, and worries that he can't live up to the image he's created. Have him fight a moral battle instead of a truly physical one, at least in the first movie.
 

Stiler

Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
6,659
Superman is Superman because of the Kents, they are what instill that sense of morals and the goodness into him.

Pa Kent would've NEVER told him to "maybe let people die to save your identity" nor would Supes have even thought about doing that.

The DC movies got all of this wrong, they basically tried to make Superman into "Batman" with a tragedy, make broody and dark, try to hide his powers/run from them.

It also didn't help that that Henry and Amy had 0 chemistry on screen, it was like watching paint dry when they were meant to be "romantic" with eac other.

It's absolutely imperative that whoever plays Supes and whoever plays Lois needs to have chemistry and get on with each other.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
How could someone be happy go lucky when you know all the shit that's going on in the world ? That's why I believe Superman doesn't work as a character anymore. It's because of the Internet, all the information we have... the fact that now we know that ending Hitler isn't going to end evil.

I don't understand the world you'd set your Superman into, therefore I'm not sure I would be interested to follow his stories...

What do you think?
The way you put it, I'm actually even more interested in seeing that Superman try to work in today's society.
 

HamCormier

Banned
Nov 11, 2017
1,040
The way you put it, I'm actually even more interested in seeing that Superman try to work in today's society.

I agree, but on some level I don't think it could ever be the Golden Age Superman, mostly because the Golden Age doesn't exist anymore... I'd be really curious to see how someone would architect a positive Superman story in today's world.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,764
I agree, but on some level I don't think it could ever be the Golden Age Superman, mostly because the Golden Age doesn't exist anymore... I'd be really curious to see how someone would architect a positive Superman story in today's world.
If you ask me it just means more work from the writers but at the end of the day that's why they're paid for the job.
I'm by no means a big comic book reader or anything but I always got the feeling that Superman's world was during the day while Batman was the night.
As such it always seemed that Metropolis was a big bright shining city while the dreary place was Gotham city.
Even in today's world there's cities that look really shiny with seedy underbellies.
Also Superman is not just Golden Age Superman so I think it could work too.
If they could make a decent Shazam, they can make a decent Superman at least.
Heck Marvel managed to make a movie with a space racoon after all!
We've had more complicated stuffs brought to screen after all.
 

Ars Arcanum

alt account
Banned
Feb 3, 2019
290
While I appreciate that sentiment. Let DC figure themselves out and give these guys Cyclops. The Other captain america.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,215
Another example of Superman not being gritty but being pushed to nearly caving someone's head in.

23316788_1657756004244781_2527329790224058687_n.jpg


Wasn't shown on panel, but you know damn well Superman gave dude them Kryptonian hands over that shit.
 

Malverde

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Sure, but also, there's nothing wrong with feeling that Superman's real superpower being that he was raised by a couple of white Kansas farmers doesn't really float anymore, either.

Honestly the best thing they could do is make Superman anything other than a blue eyed white boy raised by old white people. Keep the traits but make him an idealistic hero who loves humanity despite growing up in racist bumblefuck nowhere Kansas. Make inequality and racism (both systemic and overt) the focus of his reporting. That is some interesting shit.

Don't make colorblind "all lives matter" Superman, that shit is fucked.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,215
Honestly the best thing they could do is make Superman anything other than a blue eyed white boy raised by old white people. Keep the traits but make him an idealistic hero who loves humanity despite growing up in racist bumblefuck nowhere Kansas. Make inequality and racism (both systemic and overt) the focus of his reporting. That is some interesting shit.

Don't make colorblind "all lives matter" Superman, that shit is fucked.
That's just one fuckup; Superman has never been all lives matter.


police2.jpg


This is him literally changed to a black lives matter protest.

And then there's the whole "standing up for undocumented immigrants" thing.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,178
Greater Vancouver
Superman is Superman because of the Kents, they are what instill that sense of morals and the goodness into him.

Pa Kent would've NEVER told him to "maybe let people die to save your identity" nor would Supes have even thought about doing that.

The DC movies got all of this wrong, they basically tried to make Superman into "Batman" with a tragedy, make broody and dark, try to hide his powers/run from them.

It also didn't help that that Henry and Amy had 0 chemistry on screen, it was like watching paint dry when they were meant to be "romantic" with eac other.

It's absolutely imperative that whoever plays Supes and whoever plays Lois needs to have chemistry and get on with each other.
Here's the thing - there is validity in Pa Kent being wholly aware, and even afraid, of what might happen if Clark's true nature ever became public. The Kents live in Kansas. Anyone with even a remotely religious ideology is going to have that directly challenged or even broken by finding a baby in a space pod. There's a little jab at that in Man of Steel where he chuckles to himself when whats-his-face's mom says something about God. There's value in that, and it's an interesting angle.

But the film ultimately fails to connect because Clark never has his moment where he declares (for himself) his own mission statement. It's not about him being caught between the worldviews of his two fathers. Jor El's machine ghost seems pretty cool with just dropping exposition, and is weirdly obsessed with Clark being Jesus From Space rather than anything directly to do with Krypton or its resurrection. And Jonathan's paranoia has little of anything to do with the movie beyond the first third of MoS.

If the movie even had a moment where he had to directly confront Jonathan, even just in his own head? Coming to terms with the complicated nature of his adoptive father and afraid that he let him down? But then there is his mom, reassuring him that Jon never denied his son's ability for greatness, but that he only wanted to instill in him the wisdom to determine what greatness even means. That might be something.

But the film's thesis statement isn't about Clark as a person, but about the 'sociological idea of Superman'. The most it has to say is "Hey, if Superman was real, that'd be a pretty big deal, right?" Everyone repeats how important Superman is. That is all it wants to express. And it does it badly.

Raimi's Spider-Man spells out his mission statement plainly - with great power comes great responsibility. And it extends this through to his relationship with Osborn - a man who reaches out to Peter as an adoring father figure and as a villain. But Peter puts his foot down, "I already have a father. His name was Ben Parker." He isn't wanting for anything, he doesn't need some rich dude handing him a job, or power. He was not denied love growing up, he had it in the people that raised him. And this pretender will never manipulate him into forgetting the lessons that mattered most.

Nolan's Batman makes clear what his mission is - "I want to show the people of Gotham that their city doesn't belong to the criminals and the corrupt." It's not the comicbook Batman who is just obsessed with his own vendetta. His mission is to dismantle the systems of corruption to prove that Gotham isn't beyond saving. And just as Alfred has everlasting faith in Bruce, he has everlasting faith that Gotham can stand back up on its feet, even if he has contradict his own belief and be this element from outside the system.

In Captain America, Steve makes clear his beliefs: "I don't want to kill anyone. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from." And the thing that reinforces Dr. Erskine's belief that Steve is the man to take the serum, Steve jumping on the grenade, is precisely reflected right at the end by his choice to sacrifice himself. "You must promise me one thing; that you will stay who you are. Not a perfect soldier, but a good man." And that ethos carries Cap through the movies - in the face of darkness, of grief, of a world that has all-too-comfortably compromised its moral compass, that he will stay firm in the fight to do the right thing.


Man of Steel does not have that. It does not believe in it. And Snyder doesn't show any real interest in what Clark really wants or believes.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
(rest of post)

Man of Steel does not have that. It does not believe in it. And Snyder doesn't show any real interest in what Clark really wants or believes.
Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it. Snyder is enamored with the sociological idea of Superman, but all that actually pans out as in terms of his superman character is that Clark is somewhat uncomfortable with how he is perceived by the public.

Which I think is the greatest divide between fans of MoS and BvS vs haters of it. Every defense I heard for those movies always revolves around people being intrigued by that socio-political feature of Superman being this foreign ubermensch. I mean, I don't think the movie succeeds even from this point of view as the socio-political aspects seems to come down to "People nervous about the idea of Superman" and nothing else, but it's atleast what Snyder gives to his niche, but hardcore set of fans.
 
Oct 25, 2017
29,446
yntj3458ea201.jpg

(Hate King now but this issue was so damn good)

Simple and pure is for idealistic comic books. Bringing that to live-action makes Superman seem like a naive simpleton.
It's the entire point, that can be his flaw when it gets to that point


How could someone be happy go lucky when you know all the shit that's going on in the world ? That's why I believe Superman doesn't work as a character anymore. It's because of the Internet, all the information we have... the fact that now we know that ending Hitler isn't going to end evil.

I don't understand the world you'd set your Superman into, therefore I'm not sure I would be interested to follow his stories...

What do you think?
Because
1. You have Superman(a later the League) using all his abilities to make the world a better place
2. Even if Superman isn't feeling it 100% anymore he keeps up the front because it gives the majority of the world's population hope.
 
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Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
This applies to Shazam too. The big red cheese is supposed to be even more of a a bastion of goodness than Superman but they went with Geoff John's version who was mostly a dick

He grew up during the movie. The dickishness was all surface, and he shed it. See how he stood up for Freddy the first time he had the chance? Despite nearly getting his own ass kicked?
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,178
Greater Vancouver
Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it. Snyder is enamored with the sociological idea of Superman, but all that actually pans out as in terms of his superman character is that Clark is somewhat uncomfortable with how he is perceived by the public.

Which I think is the greatest divide between fans of MoS and BvS vs haters of it. Every defense I heard for those movies always revolves around people being intrigued by that socio-political feature of Superman being this foreign ubermensch. I mean, I don't think the movie succeeds even from this point of view as the socio-political aspects seems to come down to "People nervous about the idea of Superman" and nothing else, but it's atleast what Snyder gives to his niche, but hardcore set of fans.
But even in that, Snyder doesn't actually engage with the idea. He's interested in it, but it never amounts to anything. He likes the sound of the elevator pitch, but in the same way that when you're a kid reading comic books, and you first heard someone above the age of 18 mention "superheroes" and "society" in the same sentence. You don't know what that means, it may not be a thought-out idea, but it sounds smart!

And the angle he chooses to come at it isn't to to challenge (with the goal to reinforce) the fundamental core of the character, but as a cynical half-baked notion rather than a fully-formed thesis.
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
But even in that, Snyder doesn't actually engage with the idea. He's interested in it, but it never amounts to anything. He likes the sound of the elevator pitch, but in the same way that when you're a kid reading comic books, and you first heard someone above the age of 18 mention "superheroes" and "society" in the same sentence. You don't know what that means, it may not be a thought-out idea, but it sounds smart!

And the angle he chooses to come at it isn't to to challenge (with the goal to reinforce) the fundamental core of the character, but as a cynical half-baked notion rather than a fully-formed thesis.

He also has such a cynical take on humanity as a whole that Superman, while compulsively good despite Pa Kent's warnings, feels terribly out of place. Snyder can't believe in somebody so good, so he has to a) make him kill Zod (in MoS) and b) make him depressed about being Superman (in BvS).
 

whytemyke

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
3,783
Honestly the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of trying to have the naive, boyscout Supes try to mesh with the world as it is today.

I really don't think Snyder was as far off from having something with Man of Steel as people like to think.
 

Aine

Member
May 27, 2019
1,815
Honestly the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of trying to have the naive, boyscout Supes try to mesh with the world as it is today.

I really don't think Snyder was as far off from having something with Man of Steel as people like to think.

Something that popped in my head just now; why not base a film around DC Rebirth's Superman, with Clark being a father trying to teach his values to his kid while in conflict with today's world?
 

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
Honestly the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of trying to have the naive, boyscout Supes try to mesh with the world as it is today.

I really don't think Snyder was as far off from having something with Man of Steel as people like to think.

He just went to far with his bleak worldview. The idea was sound, and I actually like the movie despite its misplaced notions. It *really* could have been one of the best superhero movies with somebody to rein in some of that stuff.
 
Oct 25, 2017
29,446
I think people need to give the Lois and Clark tv series a shot, that is the best live action Clark/Superman(obviously ignoring format and tv budget issues) and is just a taste of the direction a modern take can be.
It also had a competent reporter Clark which was also nice

I'd say Arrowverse version is pretty decent but he hasn't been given enough screentime to actually know.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,602
Still thinking about that Superman: bad versus Literally Anything Else in Comic Book Movies: good ratio here.

People will always want that pariah.

It reaches 'Game Company X must just not like money' stuff on the other board.

Is it the fault of the character that the corporate interests that everybody ends up talking about by the bottom of the first page in these threads are clearly just not understood?

The MCU for all its high watermarks is a stroke of profound luck as well, I don't think the DCEU should apologise at all for being different.

Pick on Supes all you want, but the mask always falls off those who just want to egg on the 'Disney/Marvel did a better business' stuff.
 

Sibersk Esto

Changed the hierarchy of thread titles
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,491
Another example of Superman not being gritty but being pushed to nearly caving someone's head in.

23316788_1657756004244781_2527329790224058687_n.jpg


Wasn't shown on panel, but you know damn well Superman gave dude them Kryptonian hands over that shit.
Superman: Typically not ok with domestic abuse situations

D_WxLboXUAEN9gr


Reminder that this moment was re canonized later

D_WxLbmXUAALoyx


Turns out it didn't end so well though

tumblr_inline_o06qtgsqP11qgjgsb_500.png


D_WxLbmXoAE3ZJa


tumblr_inline_o070cvi7yd1qgjgsb_1280.png


tumblr_inline_o0726oL4R71qgjgsb_1280.png
 

Deleted member 56306

User-requested account closure
Banned
Apr 26, 2019
2,383
Honestly the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of trying to have the naive, boyscout Supes try to mesh with the world as it is today.

I really don't think Snyder was as far off from having something with Man of Steel as people like to think.

I don't think he was initially, as with all things, his execution was off and they didn't make another movie to course correct.
 

whytemyke

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
3,783
Why don't DC hire Marvel writers for their movies?
Because they're generally under contract with Marvel.

The moment a successful one really became available, they snatched him up. (James Gunn.)

But I mean, how many Marvel movies do you watch and think, "Man I would love to see the writer/director of that work on (insert DC property here)"? Gunn was one. Markus and McPheely as well. Obviously Coogler but I don't consider him a Marvel guy... just a fan of Black Panther and Marvel lucked into him taking on that movie. I just don't think your average Marvel movie director is going to be a cure all for DC.

But really, Marvel isn't succeeding by reinventing the wheel, which is what DC kinda/sorta needs right now. They're succeeding by just sticking close to a formula and doing it very well. Like, I would honestly make the argument that the individual writers/directors aren't even THAT important to the MCU so much as Fiege. You get a strong show runner in place and you can do a lot of interesting things over multiple movies.

But I think DC has figured out that since they aren't in a position to snag an elite show runner, they're better off paying people to just make creative stuff that might work. Hence Todd Phillips doing Joker, or James Gunn doing the next Suicide Squad, or Matt Reeves doing a Batman/Gotham movie. (If they were smart they'd take up Robert Zemeckis on his request to do a Flash movie, too, imo.)

(sorry for extensive edits on this post, folks.)
 
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FFNB

Associate Game Designer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
6,090
Los Angeles, CA
Of course you could make an amazing Superman movie in this day and age. It's just WB/DC entrusted him to a nihilistic jackass who fails to understand the core of the character and what makes Superman Superman.

Steve Rogers 100% embodies that earnestness and genuine kindness that Supes does. I wouldn't be surprised if Steve Rogers read Superman comics as a kid and it inspired him (in this scenario, Superman exists as a fictional character in Steve's world).

I'd love to see these guys take a crack at him. I'd imagine they'd adapt some version of All Star Superman, which is one of the best stories featuring the character. That and Superman: For All Seasons. I'm not the biggest Superman fan, but I like the character and think he can be amazing in the hands of talented writers that understand him.

The notion that you have to make him dark and "edgy" to be relevant has always been stupid and misguided.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,215
WB doesn't hire people literally in house writing far superior movies,
Batman_mask_of_the_phantasm_poster.jpg
latest
Batman_Beyond_-_Return_of_the_Joker_poster.jpg
GL_First_Flight.jpg
Batman_under_the_red_hood_poster.jpg


After the Snyder crap WB could have literally taken Phantasm or Red Hood and just touched up those scripts for a movie but nope
Hell, even the animated shared universe thing they got going on right now is a hell of a lot better than the live action stuff, and the first half of those Post-Flashpoint movies were utter ass.
 

BKatastrophe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,359
Superman will forever be a difficult IP.
Only when people overthink it
How could someone be happy go lucky when you know all the shit that's going on in the world ? That's why I believe Superman doesn't work as a character anymore. It's because of the Internet, all the information we have... the fact that now we know that ending Hitler isn't going to end evil.

I don't understand the world you'd set your Superman into, therefore I'm not sure I would be interested to follow his stories...

What do you think?
There's a page in the current run of Action Comics by Brian Michael Bendis where Jimmy Olsen asks how he doesn't go nuts with being able to hear everything shitty going on, and he responds by saying that while he does hear that, he also hears all the sounds of the people going to help those in need. So he knows it'll be okay because people help eachother out.

Very sweet.
 

Deleted member 2254

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,467
A "dark" and troubled Superman wasn't a bad idea, and I still mantain Batman v Superman also had all the right ideas to deliver an exciting storyline as well. It's just they weren't very good movies, with pacing all over the place, on the nose symbolism and half-baked character arcs, along with spotty CGI.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,215
Only when people overthink it

There's a page in the current run of Action Comics by Brian Michael Bendis where Jimmy Olsen asks how he doesn't go nuts with being able to hear everything shitty going on, and he responds by saying that while he does hear that, he also hears all the sounds of the people going to help those in need. So he knows it'll be okay because people help eachother out.

Very sweet.
Speaking of the current Action run, he said something in one of the earlier issues that stuck out to me as the embodiment of him.

Action-Comics-1006-Superman-spoilers-A.jpg

It's the perfect statement of who he is.
 

kurahador

Member
Oct 28, 2017
17,538
WB doesn't hire people literally in house writing far superior movies,
Batman_mask_of_the_phantasm_poster.jpg
latest
Batman_Beyond_-_Return_of_the_Joker_poster.jpg
GL_First_Flight.jpg
Batman_under_the_red_hood_poster.jpg


After the Snyder crap WB could have literally taken Phantasm or Red Hood and just touched up those scripts for a movie but nope
Seriously. Hell...they could've picked any multi episodes arc from Justice League cartoon tv series and turn it into live action and it would've been great.
But nooooo...gotta have Snyder, Goyer and god Nolan blessing first.