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TitanicFall

Member
Nov 12, 2017
8,271
And I dont think we can assume he helped people after otherwise in BvS batman would have seen that he wasn't this monster causing destruction and instead a hero protecting the city and in the aftermatch stuck around to help out.

I mean there's footage of Superman saving a space shuttle, saving a girl from a burning building, a family stuck on a rooftop because of flooding, etc. He saved the planet from invading aliens. The evidence that he was trying to help was out there. The US government was accepting of him more or less with the exception of some senators that are upset that they can't control him. Batman's motivation to take on Superman in BvS was probably the worst part of the movie. Yes, there was unfortunate collateral damage which took lives, but Superman didn't outright murder civilians and there had been no instances of such damage since. Superman didn't blow up that courthouse, and maybe if he had done a little bit of detective work, like Batman is supposed to do, he would have figured out what was going on. I think Batman is the worst characterization in the Synder films, not Superman.
 

JCHandsom

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
4,218
It is always the wrong writers for the job. Who blames the fact that he is hard to write but truth be told they want to write the OTHER superman like characters that are more evil.

i really like this tumblr post :


David J Prokopetz

Oh, horseshit. The thesis of Snyder’s work isn’t that heroism is hard; it’s that heroism doesn’t exist. What we’re seeing is a self-absorbed asshole trying to justify himself by framing a worldview...

I like that post
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
I'm not done talking about how good Superman can be when handled correctly.

One of my favorite moments was in the Justice League cartoon when Superman was heading home to Kansas for the holidays. Aware that Martian Manhunter didn't have a family to spend the holidays with, he invites him to join HIS family for Christmas.


This is a thing that exists, and it is such a "Superman" thing to do. The fact that the Kents just welcome a giant green alien man into their home without a second thought is precisely why Clark turned out to be the hero he is.

Yeah. This.
 

BKatastrophe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,359
Make Superman Goku, that's the best way to fix him.
Supes is too overpowered & hard to relate too, though Captain Marvel is similarly overpowered & people liked that, so maybe it's something else i dunno.
Goku? No. That's so fundamentally wrong. Like I said before, there are plenty of villains that could give Clark a solid physical threat. Power levels being conflated with relatability says a lot about those people. Like if you can't relate to someone because they're far stronger than you, then you have a lot of insecurities to work out of your own accord. Besides, as if the power levels in Dragonball ain't jacked as is.
Yep, kinda reminds me of Lex Luthor thoughts on superman. How someone with all that power can't be good
It always comes back to power with Lex. Doesn't matter what he says, all he ever wants is power, and Superman is his biggest challenge to being the biggest dick G there is. That's what The Black Ring was all about.
I'm not done talking about how good Superman can be when handled correctly.

One of my favorite moments was in the Justice League cartoon when Superman was heading home to Kansas for the holidays. Aware that Martian Manhunter didn't have a family to spend the holidays with, he invites him to join HIS family for Christmas.


This is a thing that exists, and it is such a "Superman" thing to do. The fact that the Kents just welcome a giant green alien man into their home without a second thought is precisely why Clark turned out to be the hero he is.


Yeah. This.

Bruh you brought the heavy hitter
 

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
10,382
Goku? No. That's so fundamentally wrong. Like I said before, there are plenty of villains that could give Clark a solid physical threat. Power levels being conflated with relatability says a lot about those people. Like if you can't relate to someone because they're far stronger than you, then you have a lot of insecurities to work out of your own accord. Besides, as if the power levels in Dragonball ain't jacked as is.

It always comes back to power with Lex. Doesn't matter what he says, all he ever wants is power, and Superman is his biggest challenge to being the biggest dick G there is. That's what The Black Ring was all about.

Bruh you brought the heavy hitter
People have been crying about Superman being overpowered for decades, it's why he got nerfed in 52, the folks who did the comics even knew it. He literally use to destroy a universe by sneezing, he was fucking DUMB.
 

Hark

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,162
The only way to do Superman justice in films, imo, is to give him a foil relevant to both his humanity and his inhumanity. He needs to be caught in the middle and make a choice. Imo, choice is the defining feature of Superman and the fact that such an immensely powerful entity chooses to be good is inspirational.

Man of Steel tried to mix things up a bit and had Clark feeling lost and unsure of who/what he was. This concept is fine, but for this to have any gravity he needs to be departing from something he already was. He was effectively formless and taking his first form, rather than radically changing forms throughout the course of the movie. What I'm trying to say is: the concept isn't fit for an origin story.

In MoS, militant martians come to earth searching for a codex and threatening the planet. There's no choice here. The decision is made for him. Superman himself is in peril and therefore he has to protect himself and, by extension, the people he cares about.

I think there's definitely a place to tell a story about Superman as a fish who ponders his large size in a small pond, but an 'origin' story isn't it. That's something that needs to come after he fails significantly for the first time and doesn't feel like he can be who he was anymore.

Also, I watched some clips from MoS to inform my writing of this and the battle of Smallville feels like they were trying to remake the Matrix... the dialogue is so out of place, stilted and weird. Not a fan of the characters interactions at all.

e: fuck, you could literally make a trilogy about Supes contending with his Humanity (movie 1, fights Luthor), fighting an external threat that challenges his inhumanity (movie 2, fights Braniac or Darkseid) and then addressing where he belongs in the universe (movie 3 fights Luthor at a cost, encounters Zod).
 
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Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
He had some pretty good storylines in the Justice League cartoon, mine that for some material. He said at one point that he isn't a boyscout, that he does feel the same temptations as everyone else (in the episode where an alternate-universe Superman killed Lex Luthor, and started lobotomizing villains with his laser vision).
 
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BKatastrophe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,359
People have been crying about Superman being overpowered for decades, it's why he got nerfed in 52, the folks who did the comics even knew it. He literally use to destroy a universe by sneezing, he was fucking DUMB.
But he's not at that level anymore, and that's not my point. Or points:

1) How does turning him into Goku "fix" him? In what way? How does it solve his power level problem? "Goku vs Superman" is so much of a thing that Death Battle did it twice. Probably will end up doing it a third time within the next, oh I'll give it five years. People think Goku is strong enough to kill Superman, so I'm not sure how it fixes that. Does it make him a more interesting character? How? In anyway? If Superman just being a good guy makes him a flat character, then fine. The problem is that Goku is just as flat. The only way you change that is by showing the growth of kid to adult, but that stands true for Superman as well. Nothing is "fixed" by the change.

2) Over time, enough villains have been developed enough to provide Supes with enough of a threat to be believable. I mean, you have Doomsday as a classic example of "the dude who killed Superman!" Other Kryptonians, such as Zodd, or even weird alternates like Bizarro. You have Eradicator, Hank Henshaw, Brainiac, Darkseid, and a few others. So while Golden and Silver Age Superman were insanely overpowered, that was over 40-50 years ago. Bringing up that point now is doing it just to do it and has no real weight on any modern version. Like, since the 80's/90's.

3) How often power levels and character relation come up in conversation in regards to Superman shows a weird focus. I don't understand how these two things are so intertwined when it comes to him, and yet no one else. Especially given how many characters there are out there who are just as powerful.
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA





They right..... for a character so simple and pure it is amazing how often people get superman wrong. And don't come in with that bullshit Kill Bill speech, one it couldn't be more wrong and 2 look who is giving it.


Yea, Brandon Routh I think played him right IMO. It's dead simple: he's Superman. Captain America worked because the writers and Evans played him earnest - unapologetic. He is the ultimate good guy. There is plenty noble in that and something to cheer for. He also needs his cast of colorful supporting characters. They did the same thing for Black Panther and Peter Parker.

These are all things Snyder and WB didn't get. And boy oh boy did they read Batman wrong, but that's a different story.
 
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Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,093
I never get the read that superman is inhuman or wrestles with being human.
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
I never get the read that superman is inhuman or wrestles with being human.
Can we agree Jor-El being at fortress is terrible addition?

I love the idea of him finding the fortress and connecting to his alien hertiage through files his dad collected (he was a sciencist) but being told "NOW GO BE A HERO" takes away his choice of doing so.

I like the idea that once Clark hits college he just knows he wants to help with his powers and does so while dressed in the outfit his mom made him
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
The "world of cardboard" speech in Justice League Unlimited. Where he talks about how much he has to control his strength. Less about wrestling with his humanity and just about his strength and physical power.
Thats completely different though, Superman should feel human and in place here, he isn't doing the kill bill speech. Sure he hides and powers and such, but at his core, he identifies as human.
 
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Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,093
The "world of cardboard" speech in Justice League Unlimited. Where he talks about how much he has to control his strength. Less about wrestling with his humanity and just about his strength and physical power.
That is why i like New Krypton. After hanging with his cousins he realized he doesn't come that life and would never be one of them.
 

BKatastrophe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
13,359
Thats completely different though, Superman should feel human and in place here, he isn't doing the kill bill speech. Sure he hides and powers and such, but at his core, he identifies as human.
That's not true. He identifies as Kryptonian, but says that Earth is his home. He also says that he is from Krypton and that Krypton was also his home. How much of that connection to Krypton is played up depends on the writer. We're talking when he says stuff like "Great Rao!" which never sits right with me. When Kara says it, then it makes sense given that she grew up on Krypton. Clark grew up on Earth, is from Krypton, and is kind of adopting the culture into his because it's his heritage.

It's a weird thing.
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
That's not true. He identifies as Kryptonian, but says that Earth is his home. He also says that he is from Krypton and that Krypton was also his home. How much of that connection to Krypton is played up depends on the writer. We're talking when he says stuff like "Great Rao!" which never sits right with me. When Kara says it, then it makes sense given that she grew up on Krypton. Clark grew up on Earth, is from Krypton, and is kind of adopting the culture into his because it's his heritage.

It's a weird thing.
Its like a migrant born from one country but raised in another, it's complicated and I get it. But it's mainly if Clark sees himself as one of the people or not, or above them, is what matters is what I'm trying to say.
 

Sibersk Esto

Changed the hierarchy of thread titles
Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,507
Can we agree Jor-El being at fortress is terrible addition?

I love the idea of him finding the fortress and connecting to his alien hertiage through files his dad collected (he was a sciencist) but being told "NOW GO BE A HERO" takes away his choice of doing so.

I like the idea that once Clark hits college he just knows he wants to help with his powers and does so while dressed in the outfit his mom made him
I think Jor El works fine as a cold detached "AskJeeves" for Kryptonian knowledge and that Clark's discovery of it completes his initial character arc of learning who he is.

Brando's Jor El has fantastic speeches but the home school aspect is a bit much

Man of Steel's version of a straight up Jor-El A.I character was a pretty boring interpretation honestly

Smallville actually had a pretty interesting interpretation of Jor-El as a completely detached alien god machine whose sole purpose was to craft the perfect alien god being on Earth
 
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Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,093
That's not true. He identifies as Kryptonian, but says that Earth is his home. He also says that he is from Krypton and that Krypton was also his home. How much of that connection to Krypton is played up depends on the writer. We're talking when he says stuff like "Great Rao!" which never sits right with me. When Kara says it, then it makes sense given that she grew up on Krypton. Clark grew up on Earth, is from Krypton, and is kind of adopting the culture into his because it's his heritage.

It's a weird thing.
Damn now i wondering about Kryptonian racial slurs. it feels like Kryptonians would have a bunch of dumb Daxamite jokes.
 
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Slayven

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,093
I think Jor El works fine as a cold detached "AskJeeves" for Kryptonian knowledge and that Clark's discovery of it completes his initial character arc of learning who he is.

Brando's Jor El has fantastic speeches but the home school aspect is a bit much

Man of Steel's version of a straight up Jor-El A.I character was a pretty boring interpretation honestly

Smallville actually had a pretty interesting interpretation of Jor-El as a completely detached alien god machine whose sole purpose was to craft the perfect alien god being on Earth
I like Smallville Jor El spending time on earth in his youth. Gave an interesting spin on why he sent Clark there
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
I like the reveal of Clark being alien in American Alien being purely when he fights Lobo for first time and Lobo spits racial slurs at him and then goes "you're...Kyprotian, you know?"
 

CoolestSpot

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,325
superman-meets-lobo-american-alien-1.png


Yes, he's wearing Batman amour he just took and graffiti'd ala Miles Morales...but less out of respect but after Bruce tried coming into his damn house.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
I feel like people who say "MCU Cap = Superman" are missing the points of both characters entirely. Captain America has heart yes, but he doesn't have the strict moral code that Superman has. As in, Superman will not kill another man (because the whole point is that Superman is far powerful than the average human being, and that he's supposed to be inspiring people to be the best versions of themselves). Whereas, Captain America doesn't really have qualms about killing considering what we see him doing in WW2, and his career as a soldier. In other words, Superman will not kill a person, whereas Captain America will kill if the situation calls for it. They both have completely different upbringings that result in them having different character traits, that saying "MCU Cap = Superman" misses the point.
 

SageShinigami

Member
Oct 27, 2017
30,472
People have been crying about Superman being overpowered for decades, it's why he got nerfed in 52, the folks who did the comics even knew it. He literally use to destroy a universe by sneezing, he was fucking DUMB.

Some of Superman's best stories come from when he's absurdly powerful. All-Star Superman saw him be more powerful than he had ever been, and yet that's one of the best Superman stories ever.

You know who gets caught up in Superman's power level? People overly concerned with who he's going to punch in the face. When you're that powerful, who you're going to fight isn't what makes you compelling anymore.
 

alexiswrite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,418
The idea that superman has to be this pure ideal being to be well written is absurd. People overblow the tone of these movies way too much when talking about why they're not working.
 

Parenegade

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,589
i think, while generally accurate that you dont have to fundamentally change superman, there's a big difference between Supes and Captain America

Cap at the end of the day is just a dude with super juice in him. We see him weak, we see him frail, we see his struggle. The reason for his strength of character, his modus operandi "I don't like bullies" is explained and we see him as a victim to the thing he ultimately fights against. He's also literally from the 1920s (in a way, so is Superman,) so that quaintness and those boyscout charms come built in with the cryo-time-travel shenanigans. Supes is basically god-tier universal level alien being with a miraculous heart of gold. Granted, yes, Chris Reeves and Richard Donner pulled it off... it's doable, but it's not easy and I don't think Captain America is the template necessarily.

Superman doesn't have to be god tier. The Timmverse Superman from Superman The Animated Series wasn't a god in day to day fights.
 

Shingi_70

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,782
Why does everyone want Superman to be Goku, when Goku after toward the middle of Z is kinda mostly one note and seems mostly deatched fro humanity if fighting isn't involved.
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,041
Why does everyone want Superman to be Goku, when Goku after toward the middle of Z is kinda mostly one note and seems mostly deatched fro humanity if fighting isn't involved.

They remember the early Goku from the Funi dumb.

In the original Manga and Japanese dub, Goku was borderline insane at times with his love of fighting...
 
Oct 25, 2017
29,497
Why does everyone want Superman to be Goku, when Goku after toward the middle of Z is kinda mostly one note and seems mostly deatched fro humanity if fighting isn't involved.
Goku in the original Funimation Dub was Superman just the source material towards the Buu Saga made it less noticeable.


When they redid it Goku began to suck as a character and Vegeta easily surpasses him.
 
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Paz

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,151
Brisbane, Australia
I've not read many Superman comics so I used to dislike the character for being sort of boring and overpowered, then I saw Snyder's films and disliked him for being a doouchebag, but a friend of mine who's a huge fan explained the core of why he liked the comics where Superman is this god like being with a human connection who represents the best we could ever be, a man with no physical limitations who pushes himself to do the right thing no matter what, because if he can't be that person then nobody can.

I kinda like that, and there are plenty of stories you can tell about that character that are very compelling, and it makes him very unlike other heroes who are limited and thus unable to hold on to something like a no kill rule no matter what.
 
Oct 25, 2017
41,368
Miami, FL
Obviously he didn't need to be "dirtied" and I don't think making him clean or dirty matters in and of itself.

It's all about the story and how well you can tell it.
 

JCizzle

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
7,302
I always loved this scene where he talks about living in a world of glass before going off. I'd love to see a scene like this in a movie. Man of Steel conveyed his strength, but they need to fix all the other stuff that makes the character.

 

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
10,382
But he's not at that level anymore, and that's not my point. Or points:

1) How does turning him into Goku "fix" him? In what way? How does it solve his power level problem? "Goku vs Superman" is so much of a thing that Death Battle did it twice. Probably will end up doing it a third time within the next, oh I'll give it five years. People think Goku is strong enough to kill Superman, so I'm not sure how it fixes that. Does it make him a more interesting character? How? In anyway? If Superman just being a good guy makes him a flat character, then fine. The problem is that Goku is just as flat. The only way you change that is by showing the growth of kid to adult, but that stands true for Superman as well. Nothing is "fixed" by the change.

2) Over time, enough villains have been developed enough to provide Supes with enough of a threat to be believable. I mean, you have Doomsday as a classic example of "the dude who killed Superman!" Other Kryptonians, such as Zodd, or even weird alternates like Bizarro. You have Eradicator, Hank Henshaw, Brainiac, Darkseid, and a few others. So while Golden and Silver Age Superman were insanely overpowered, that was over 40-50 years ago. Bringing up that point now is doing it just to do it and has no real weight on any modern version. Like, since the 80's/90's.

3) How often power levels and character relation come up in conversation in regards to Superman shows a weird focus. I don't understand how these two things are so intertwined when it comes to him, and yet no one else. Especially given how many characters there are out there who are just as powerful.
I didn't mean Goku as in purely powerlevels, but Goku did train over decades to achieve his powers that Supes mostly gets day one, which is another point for Goku imo.
Generally though Goku is just more likeable, he falls in line more with the likes of Starlord & Thor, that silly loveable goof that only gets serious when shit hits the fan, i think Superman has problems being likeable with the mainstream, they tried classic supes with superman returns & people found it boring, synder went darker & people didn't like that either, it kind of seems he just needs a complete reboot.