So you are saying the timeline Thanos jumped from is different from the one the Avengers are trying to correct? If that is so, then Thanos should have just not jumped no ???
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Avengers: Endgame |Spoiler OT2| Changing the past doesn't change the future
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So you are saying the timeline Thanos jumped from is different from the one the Avengers are trying to correct? If that is so, then Thanos should have just not jumped no ???
Thanos jumped mostly because all of the stones were in the place he would end up. It would be easier for him to go and grab them all in one go rather then stick with his then-current plan of "Find out where all the stones are then grab them when possible." Especially since one of the stones in his timeline wasn't in his timeline anymore and he had no idea if the Avengers were gonna bring them back or not.
The whole "I don't normally enjoy my conquests, but after everything you've done I'm going to really enjoy destroying this planet" line from Thanos during the final fight also adds some revenge want to Thanos' motivation to jump timelines.
Thanos jumped because 1) he was pissed that someone in a different timeline intended to undo his work. And 2) jumping would make his mission to collect the stones easier because they've all been collected for him.
You made that too complicated. He jumped because he had to. They had taken his stones. He can't fulfill his plan in his timeline or any other if he doesn't have all of the stones. And as you said, they had gathered them all for him so his job would be easier.
It wasn't a different timeline until they stole the stones.
From his point of view, assuming Steve returns all the stones, which he does, then the stones never leave '14 Thanos' timeline. Chronologically they're returned before he would jump to the other timeline.
I *think* you touched on what I was getting at. Wouldn't this create a paradox?
Watched the movie today, the feels are real ! The saddest part was my girl Black Widow not having a happy ending. She deserved better!
What's next for the MCU ? What y'all comic nerds predict for the next arc/phase ? I guess another cosmic level menace like Galactus would be too similar ?
What's next for the MCU ? What y'all comic nerds predict for the next arc/phase ? I guess another cosmic level menace like Galactus would be too similar ?
The stones are still returned sometime after they're taken and Nebula is detected by Thanos, so it doesn't really matter.
well, he had full knowledge of the Avengers plan thanks to Nebula. So knew that they'd be returning the stones back to where they were taken. So he didn't HAVE to jump.
Thanks to Steve, it's as if the stones never left. He didn't HAVE to jump. He could have just collected them in his timeline using Nebula's knowledge of where they all were. In fact, choosing this route would have 1) proven that his jump forward would be futile [the power stone returning to its rightful place would have been proof that the Avengers ultimate succeed whether he jumps or not] and 2) would have made collecting the stones like taking candy from a baby.
He jumped Because he was furious that his work would eventually be undone in another timeline.
There's no paradox because all of the jumps back in time occur in alternate timelines.
The events that subsequently take place in these alternate timelines are different from what we know to have occurred in the main timeline, but returning the stones to the moment they were taken prevents any major calamity in these alternate timelines.
Thanos and crew suddenly being absent from the 2014 timeline is a huge difference - but it probably does not doom that universe.
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I don't think there was a plan to return them at the start. It wasn't until Banner spoke to the Ancient One that that idea (returning the stones) came about. Nebula was off with War Machine at that time.
This is when the audience learned of the plan to return them. This was always the plan - that's why Banner was so readily able to counter the ancient one's argument that the plan would doom her timeline.
He wouldn't have been able to honestly promise to return them if that wasn't the plan all along... They made the time jump with the exact number of pym particles needed to complete the mission, and he had no way of knowing Steve would pickup two extra (Which he subsequently used for his own personal mission).
It was a different timeline as soon as WM/BW/HW/Nebula made the jump through the Quantum Realm to that point.
Yes, that's about right. It makes sense to pinpoint the earliest point of divergence rather than, as I did, a later event.
But Thanos doesn't know that.
I don't think there's anything in that exchange that suggests there was literally any plan for the stones after they took them. There's no reason to assume they would have returned them without the Ancient One telling Banner it had to be so.
I don't remember exactly how many Pym particles Steve took from the 70s, but he needed to take two to guarantee his and Stark's return trip.
As we see at the end of the film, there is no issue with creating more Pym particles once Hank Pym was back among the living.
It is implied that Banner already knows the implications of not returning the stones. That's why he IMMEDIATELY tells the Ancient One that "the science" doesn't support her theory that her timeline is doomed if she helped. He didn't just learn the science when he showed up it 2012, he already knew it.
It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that not returning the stones to their timelines would fuck those timelines.
Yes Steve took 4 total Pym Particles, two two return he and Stark to the present, and two for his rendezvous with Carter. They always intended to use particles to return stones, so presumably they had enough w/o relying on Hank Pym.
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Eh? I'd say within her MCU arc saving half of the entire universe is one hell of a happy ending for her character.
Nah, i do think Banner genuinely comes up with that when he meets the ancient one and tells them during the battle. I seem to recall Banner having a 'Pensive thought' moment when he was trying to figure out how to respond to the ancient one.
Also, they only had that many pym particles right? They went in with literally ever single one they had.
Before she gives her spiel about stones and timelines she says "I'm sorry, I can't help you, Bruce. If I give up the Time Stone to help your Reality, I'm dooming my own.
There's no pensive thought, he immediately says "with all do respect, the science doesn't support that".
He already knows the timestone was used to defend the universe. So why would he suggest TAOs timeline wouldn't need it? Because that's not what he was suggesting at all! He knew that the science would allow him to return it, as if it never left.
Then TAO draws her diagram. It does appear that he's thinking about how to respond as she speaks, but I don't buy the idea that the need to return it was news to him. The Avengers want to save their timeline, whilst changing as little about the branch timelines as possible. Taking a stone and not bringing it back isn't a little change.
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There's a slight fudge in their reasoning here (but hey, this is story telling, not science). If visiting the past creates a divergent timeline, it follows that when you go back to the split timeline where you removed items you're creating a further split. In one trouser leg of the split, you never returned the item and poor old Ancient One is sitting there twiddling her thumbs forever. In the other trouser leg, you came back with the Time Stone and The Ancient One is slowly realising the problem with Bruce's reasoning. But by then it's too late.
I'm okay with this being fudged, but let's be aware that science is only useful for storytelling up to the point that it gets in the way of the story.
The splits are caused by attempting visit time that has already passed - this creates a new universe that diverts from a preexisting universe.
Visiting new moments in time doesn't create a branch- since this moment hasn't been Lived. So there's no need to divert.
So no, Steve returning the stones moments after they are taken means he's bringing them to new moments in those timeline, not revisiting moments that have already been Lived in those timeline's. So there's no diverging path created.
Fudging is cool, but no Fudging has taken place here. The have their "science" and they have their "storytelling" and they coincide with each other.
The words you use above are quintessential fudge. I'm not criticising you for fudging, but your explanation is inconsistent with the Many Worlds hypothesis upon which this time model is based.
The key word is "based".
They created fictional time travel logic, inspired by Many World's and stuck to it. And in this fictional logic, it's attempts to revisit time that leads to branches. Visiting a moment in a timeline, as it occurs, isn't problematic.
So "by their logic" it doesn't follow that returning the stones creates branches.
Well I won't continue to rub this in, but I hope we can agree that reasoning subjected to peer review by people who know how quantum field theory (QFT) works is based on a rigorous extension of existing observations. Whereas some writers, even though they may arguably be as well versed in QFT as the scientists, have a different brief. They can just wave a wand and (cough, inertial dampers, Heisenberg compensators) make the problems go away with plot magic. It's a fudge. And we both agree that fudges are okay.
If by "fudge" you mean using logic that differs from actual scientific theory, then yeah they are fudging. And that's fine.
If by "fudge" you mean defying their own in-universe logic, then I disagree.
you said
I disagree that this is "their reasoning". "Their science" and "Their storytelling" are in agreement with each other.
Touché. I unintentionally shifted the goalposts there. I should have been more attentive in my original criticism, and more charitable in my follow up.
It's all good, i think we're on the same page ultimately.
The initial idea of being able to travel to a different universe, is already a fudge. Being able to go back to a specific universe isn't much more of a stretch. The logic regarding the time travel is then that if you've gone to a specific universe already, you can't go to an earlier point in time than when you've already been. As we've also seen in the Quantum Realm, time itself can pass at different speeds, so the amount of time experienced in each universe is independent of one another, so someone could spend x amount of time in universe B, yet come back y amount of time later in universe A. I guess it's sort of implied that they have control over that too. The mechanic for it is present in the movie at least.
Listening to this podcast right now.
Extremely late to this party, but just saw Endgame this afternoon. WOW. So many questions, and some controversial endings, which I see have been debated thoroughly in these two spoiler threads.
One question I have at this point is: When future Nebula kills past Nebula, why doesn't future Nebula disappear and/or why doesn't this mess up everything from the old timeline?
Also, is there ANY hope of restoring old Gamora and/or Black Widow from their Soul Stone deaths? It is pretty bad that Gamora's past with Star Lord is completely gone and lost forever, and that this new Gamora won't have any memories of their past experiences and growth together.
One question I have at this point is: When future Nebula kills past Nebula, why doesn't future Nebula disappear and/or why doesn't this mess up everything from the old timeline?
Also, is there ANY hope of restoring old Gamora and/or Black Widow from their Soul Stone deaths? It is pretty bad that Gamora's past with Star Lord is completely gone and lost forever, and that this new Gamora won't have any memories of their past experiences and growth together.
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Changing the past doesn't change the future. It does create an alternate timeline though.
Because 'Back to the Future is bullshit.'
No.
I'm still not wrapping my head around how that can logically work with the finale that they have established.
Also, is Loki gone for good as well? No chance for any of these folks to come back in a Multiverse collision?
I kinda wish they involved Wakanda more in this movie. It would have made sense too because of all of the tech and Vibranium that Wakanda has. They clearly have connections with Okoye, so it's not like they couldn't have done so.
It would have been interesting to see a Vibranium Iron-man suit. It would even make sense for them in the story to say they have to create the gauntlet out of Vibranium since that is the only metal on Earth that can withstand its power.
It would have been interesting to see a Vibranium Iron-man suit. It would even make sense for them in the story to say they have to create the gauntlet out of Vibranium since that is the only metal on Earth that can withstand its power.
This is how timetravel worked and effected the multiverse in Endgame.
Changing the past doesn't change the future, because these its all happening on different timelines.
Nebula from the black timeline (our main timeline) killed Nebula from the purple timeline so This doesn't change Black timeline Nebula's past.
Loki from the Black timeline is permanently dead. Along with Nat, Vision, and Stark. But they potentially live on in some of the other timelines. In the green timeline, Loki escapes New York with the tesseract. Many speculate that this Loki will be the subject of the Disney + show.
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This is how timetravel worked and effected the multiverse in Endgame.
Thanks for posting this ---- it explains a lot
Couldn't they just time travel back to the points just before Gamora, Black Widow & Loki are killed and just transport them back off of their branch timelines to the present day of main timeline? They would keep their memories and would have only missed out on what had happened in the little time (OK, 5 years for Loki) that had passed since they died on the main timeline.
You gotta remember that this would essentially be dooming those timelines, as key players wouldn't be around to fulfill their universe saving roles.
The Avengers aimed to change as few things as possible when they went back in time for this very reason.
Also its kidnapping. If they go back and grab Gamora, she'd be leaving behind the crew she loves, to join a similar crew but one that isn't quite the same. Black Widow would be about to save her best friend so that he could save his family, but suddenly he'd be without the Soul Stone and failing his mission. :(
On another note:
"You mess with time, it tends to mess back" - Tony Stark
Though we presume Endgame ended happily for the most part, I think the we'll find that the time hijinks come back to bite the main timeline in a subsequent phase of MCU.
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At what point do you stop kidnapping people from the past and why?
No, no, they wouldn't be dooming those timelines.................they'd be rescued just before their lives were ended in those timelines.
Loki rescued just before Thanos kills him doesn't break anything
Gamora rescued before Thanos kills her would actually help that timeline and prevent him from getting the soul stone
Black Widow rescued before sacrificing herself...........well, yes, that would doom that timeline ; I guess that would need to be resolved differently
There aren't that many people to save ; only 3 major players died between Infinity War & Endgame, right? Not too big of a deal to save them if you can, after all the effort that went into getting the main timeline to where it is, free of Thanos' master plan of destruction
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Thousands of people die every day. Who's to say who is or isn't important to anyone else? Why only save Avengers?
The thing is, you can't really tell what the butterfly effect will bring. We assume that rescuing Gamora prevents Thanos from getting the soul stone. What if it just delays him AND clues him in to the threat of time travel? How would the Guardians of that timeline react to Gamora being kidnapped by the Avengers?
We can assume Loki surviving breaks nothing. But we can't say that for sure.
There's a reason why the masters of the mystic arts were generally so weary of screwing with time. It's a slippery slope with imperceptible consequences.
Couple more questions.....
What happened to Gamora during/after the final battle? The last I remember of her, she was in the scene where Nebula shot Nebula, then I don't remember seeing her again (particularly not during the funeral scene).
Next: how is Falcon able to wield Captain America's sword and effectively inherit the Captain America title? From what I gathered, Falcon always was sort of a weak MCU character, with no real physical enhancements and strictly reliant on his mech wings to provide aerial support. Steve Rogers was super-human in strength, resilience etc. and could withstand a shit ton of abuse even without his shield. I also thought that the shield required superhuman strength to wield effectively. Really not sure how Falcon getting the shield makes sense and how he will be able to wield it well.
Why did anyone need to inherit the shield? It could have easily and fittingly been retired with Captain America.
EDIT: another thought ; wasn't his shield shattered by Thanos in the final battle? Did he get another one? WTH?
What happened to Gamora during/after the final battle? The last I remember of her, she was in the scene where Nebula shot Nebula, then I don't remember seeing her again (particularly not during the funeral scene).
Next: how is Falcon able to wield Captain America's sword and effectively inherit the Captain America title? From what I gathered, Falcon always was sort of a weak MCU character, with no real physical enhancements and strictly reliant on his mech wings to provide aerial support. Steve Rogers was super-human in strength, resilience etc. and could withstand a shit ton of abuse even without his shield. I also thought that the shield required superhuman strength to wield effectively. Really not sure how Falcon getting the shield makes sense and how he will be able to wield it well.
Why did anyone need to inherit the shield? It could have easily and fittingly been retired with Captain America.
EDIT: another thought ; wasn't his shield shattered by Thanos in the final battle? Did he get another one? WTH?
Gamora: She has a scene with Star Lord and then she flees.
Falcon: Watch the Disney+ show to find out. But if you must know - being Captain America was never about being super strong, the first movie in his trilogy reinforced this multiple times. Sam can wield the shield fine, can fly and has tech gadgets like Redwing. He will be just fine.
Shield: Captain America is becoming a mantle and Steve wanted someone to protect the world in his stead since he knew he'd come back old, if he came back at all. Sam is the closest to him morally and it makes complete sense to pass the mantle to him.
Shattered Shield: Steve went to an alternate timeline to live out his life with Peggy, one in which the shield wasn't shattered yet. Even if you assume that shield eventually shattered, Steve could alter things just by his mere presence and maybe Howard made multiple, or T'challa made him one. The main point is there are a lot of sources for a new shield.
It's the biggest hint that he went to a different timeline.
Gamora disapeared after the fight, Guardians Vol. 3 will probably be about the Guardians searching her
No anyoned can wield the Shield, and it´s about the symbol. Captain lives on even if it´s not Roger