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Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,322
Ok, good.

So if Strange's evaluation of the Avenger's odds to defeat Thanos is such that in 14 millions he watched, they won in one, is it safe to assume that in the incredibly overwhelming majority of those infinite timelines the Avengers lose and the snap persists? Or the actual outcome is that the Strange of those timelines goes through the same steps, the Avengers do timetravel in all those timelines, and Thanos more often than not loses?

Im just gonna quote a previous edit i made:

we also need to remember that "winning" in the context of Strange's plan would have been defined by Strange himself.

He saw one scenario, that saw half the universe getting decimated, but ultimately most of those lives were restored - and he decided that was a positive outcome compared to everything else he saw.

That doesn't mean he didn't see other ways of mitigating the Thanos threat. It meant that, as far as he could see, any other avenues would ultimately lead to something worse than Endgame's result.

Perhaps he considered simply using portals to cutoff Thanos' arm on Titan. Threat removed right? Win? But what if that had a high likelihood of triggering a chain of events that leads something worse than a snap+unsnap scenario?

Another thing to consider is just how vast the concept of "infinity" is. Strange was looking for positive outcome of "the coming conflict". Which is extremely nearsighted when you consider that time is infinite. How far beyond the conflict did he look? What if ultimately winning the Thanos conflict is a net loss for the future of the timeline? What if some of those 14million "losses" lead to future paradises that Strange couldn't foresee. 5years, a lifetime, a millennia - these concepts are but a drop in the ocean that is infinite time.
 
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Scrooge McDuck

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,038
That's why I say there's no way to make it sound good.

If I don't believe her, I somehow diminish her character, which isn't exactly nice.

If I believe her, then she's been busy saving the universe from things more or less as bad as HALF ITS POPULATION BEING WIPED OUT, that kind of diminshes the events of the Infinity War arc, doesn't it?

It's better not to think about it.
You keep lamenting about how the events are "diminished", like if it's just one of many possibilities, or that if there are much larger threats out there, and I keep not understanding what the problem is. So what if in the cosmic scale, it's not that unique or big? Does that make the character struggles any less difficult? Like, the scale of Infinity War pretty much eclipse every single problem in every other movies. Does that make those film worse or something?

That's excellent fanfiction, and I like it but if we're at the stage where we need to make up stuff ("Steve didn't steal the shield, he had T'Challa make a new one for him!")
How is that any less "fanfiction" than the assertion that he stole the Shield in the first place? You just somehow assume the most cynical interpretation out of everything, and pretend like its the most logical of them all.
 

Deleted member 7051

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,254
That's excellent fanfiction, and I like it but if we're at the stage where we need to make up stuff ("Steve didn't steal the shield, he had T'Challa make a new one for him!") it's probably best to stop and take it for what it is. I think it's rather silly that Carol's potential interactions with Thanos are not touched up (imagine if we got a small line like "Yeah, the entire galaxy fears Thanos. I've been fighting off his goons for years. This is a good chance to track him down for good". Done.) but I can live with it.

It's no less fanfiction than "oh she must have just ignored what Thanos did for decades". What's more believable? That Carol is culpable for billions of deaths or she made Thanos rethink his approach to balancing the universe by showing him that travelling from planet to planet to wipe out half their populations doesn't work when someone is there to stop him?

Some folks just don't like Carol's existence in the MCU so much they'd rather she is framed as a horrible person that allowed billions to die. Guess I shouldn't really expect anything else.
 

Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
Yeah, but that stops being a problem when the Guardians stumble on Thor or Thor stumbles on Hulk AND Loki.

Bizzarre how that work, uh?
Guardians didn't stumble on Thor. The Asgardian ship send out a distress call.

Thor and Loki falls down the rainbow bridge within secs at the same spot. Not a big stretch to say they landed at nearly the same place. And Hulk's been there for many years, maybe centuries (time flow differently there).
 
Nov 30, 2017
2,750
Yeah, that's the second scenario I was evaluating, but there's two problems with it.

First, we know from the comicbook world that there's very few things bigger than Thanos. And the previous MCU movies have everyone refer to Thanos as the big bad of the galaxy, whenever he's mentioned.

Second, and I understand you have no problem with this, but it's kind of deflating to think that we've been building up some grand narrative about the fate of the universe and the biggest battle against the greatest villain only to introduce a character two months before the ending and saying she's been doing stuff like this for 30 years.

It's a bit like if at some point in GoT some character landed in the Iron Island and said "Oh, you're dealing with the ice zombies threat? I can help you, I've already dealth with the sand zombies, and the stone zombies, and the pannacotta zombies, and the silk zombies. There's been zombie emergencies like these all over the world! You guys will be fine".

Dude Thanos has been sitting on a chair letting his armies do most of the dirty work. Why didn't he attack Earth himself and send Loki instead in 2012 if he could have obliterated it himself?

Why didn't anyone find his space chair over those hundreds of years he's been sitting there doing nothing.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
It's no less fanfiction than "oh she must have just ignored what Thanos did for decades". What's more believable? That Carol is culpable for billions of deaths or she made Thanos rethink his approach to balancing the universe by showing him that travelling from planet to planet to wipe out half their populations doesn't work when someone is there to stop him?

Some folks just don't like Carol's existence in the MCU so much they'd rather she is framed as a horrible person that allowed billions to die. Guess I shouldn't really expect anything else.

I'm not saying she ignored him. She doesn't ever acknowledge Thanos in any way. She seems even surprised about his existance.

The movie pretty much tells us she doesn't know who he is. That's the weird thing. Carol is fundamentally fearless, she would never ignore Thanos. She would have hunted him down and killed him.
 

grand

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,899
Question, who do you want the next big bad to be for the cinematic universe arcs?
If they're going cosmic, it should be someone the Cosmic Entities send to punish mortals for messing with time. Like Galactus. This would also tie up the plot hole for why the Avengers don't keep using time travel to solve their problems.
I hadnt even thought about how Tony's snap would not dust Gamora as well. I suppose in the moment you use the Gauntlet you get a degree of omnipresence that gives them a perception we don't see on screen.
I assume the stones themselves are omnipresent and can interrupt the wishes of its user. Hence the stones knew to destroy only Tony's enemies. Or how the Space Stone knew to send Red Skull to the Soul Stone world. They were made by the Cosmic Entities so they have minds of their own in a weird way.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
Guardians didn't stumble on Thor. The Asgardian ship send out a distress call.

Yes, and they were the closest ship of course. Come on, we're all smarter than this. Things in these movies happen because they need to happen, and it's fine. It's just a bit jarring to see the "lol people are stupid, the universe is huuuuuge" argument used when the entire saga is made of happy "incidents" like Strange suddenly getting interested in Loki for some reason.
 
Nov 30, 2017
2,750
Yes, and they were the closest ship of course. Come on, we're all smarter than this. Things in these movies happen because they need to happen, and it's fine. It's just a bit jarring to see the "lol people are stupid, the universe is huuuuuge" argument used when the entire saga is made of happy "incidents" like Strange suddenly getting interested in Loki for some reason.

You're the one making a big deal out of nothing
What Carol was doing all those years is irrelavent to the story at hand.
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
Second, and I understand you have no problem with this, but it's kind of deflating to think that we've been building up some grand narrative about the fate of the universe and the biggest battle against the greatest villain only to introduce a character two months before the ending and saying she's been doing stuff like this for 30 years.
It really, really, really isn't to me. I cannot begin to tell you how much it isn't. If I could have all 6 infinity stones and used them to write a post with the most immaculate wording and language man could use, I still probably would not be able to tell you how much I do not believe this affects mine or most people's interpretations of a work.

I'm not even convinced I should concede to this as a difference of opinions either, because we have proof of it not being an issue in other instances. Tell me, what possible comparison in terms of stakes is there in Peter Parker stopping the Vulture from stealing Stark's weapons at the end of Homecoming if you know for a fact there are transdimentional threats to the existence of reality itself as established by Dormammu in Doctor Strange? The former could probably cleaned up by Iron Man afterwards if Peter fails to stop him, but no one, not even Captain Marvel, could concievably help Strange against fucking Dormammu. It's possible Dormammu is a higher being than even Thanos since whatever plane of existance he is on, it doesn't seem to operate by normal rules.

And yet people still cared about Peter saving the day. In fact, I would argue that people cared more about spiderman stopping this low-level glorfied thug baddy than they cared about Strange stopping a lovecraftian terror, if reception is anything to go by. And it's not even just because it was saving the day, but because that fight was Peter self actualizing into the hero that he is meant to be. That's how narratives work, they make you care about the person whose story they are about. It doesn't matter that Strange has biggers stakes in comparison because if we care about peter, and he cares about stopping vulture, then we're invested in that outcome, no matter how small scale it is to anyone else.


What your describing is not how stories work. That's not how they ever worked. If you honestly feel that the story was diminished for you because Captain Marvel has other high stakes shit to take care of, well, I can't speak to your personal feelings obviously, but I don't think you should say it applies to other people in general, because I feel it provably does not. I feel your just incorrect on this one, atleast outside yourself. If nothing else, doesn't the fact that you are the only one who has brought up this point as an issue speak to that at all?

It's a bit like if at some point in GoT some character landed in the Iron Island and said "Oh, you're dealing with the ice zombies threat? I can help you, I've already dealth with the sand zombies, and the stone zombies, and the pannacotta zombies, and the silk zombies. There's been zombie emergencies like these all over the world! You guys will be fine".

That analogy doesn't really work because to equate it to how it happened in Avengers, you'd have to have this character not available until the last moment where the ice zombie apocalypse already started. Like, remember, even though Carol is provably stronger than Thanos, she arrived so late and got outfought due to Thanos's quick thinking. If Tony hadn't made his move, Thanos would have won.

So this would be more like if the ice zombies already invaded, killed several characters you care about, and for all their knowledge this character still would not be able to defeat them on their own.
 
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Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
You keep lamenting about how the events are "diminished", like if it's just one of many possibilities, or that if there are much larger threats out there, and I keep not understanding what the problem is. So what if in the cosmic scale, it's not that unique or big? Does that make the character struggles any less difficult? Like, the scale of Infinity War pretty much eclipse every single problem in every other movies. Does that make those film worse or something?

My favourite MCU movie is still Winter Soldier. I'm all about the small scale stuff, and there's meaning in small scale stuff too. The best moments in EG for me are in the first hour.

THAT said, imagine being a character like Steve or Carol who'd give up anything to save people, and finding out that your actions and sacrifices don't actually save everyone, but you're actually one of the many millions Steves/Carols across many million realities. That you're easing up a tiny fraction of the pain and suffering you struggle with.

It's one I don't like alternate realities/multiverses. At some point, after you find out there's a number of realities where everyone died horribly or where the bad guy turned everyone into frogs, and that if this reality went to shit there'd be thousands more similar realities where things still work, that Natasha did sacrifice herself and die but there's probably millions other Natashas out there still alive, everything loses a bit of... impact. That's why at some point in the comics they go from having bad guys killing people to having bad guys killing universes, and I'm not interested in that kind of stuff. It's not for me.
 
Oct 27, 2017
15,010
I watched it last night and I loved it. I actually didn't like the third act all that much - these battle scenes are easily the weakest part of Avengers 2, 3 and 4 so I'd like to see them do something different in the next one. But the character work was amazing and everyone gets a brilliant conclusion to their arcs. Thor and Tony in particular get wonderful scenes with their parents, and Chris Hemsworth was maybe my favourite actor in the film. I really hope he will be with the Guardians in the next film. I'm glad Rene Russo got to interact with Thor because he's always banging on about his dad and she never felt like she got enough screen time. I thought Professor Hulk was great and I love this direction to take the character. I was really surprised they killed off Nat as I'm now wondering how they'll do her solo movie, and I thought they'd bring back Vision but it seems like from the dialogue at the end that maybe that's not the plan.

There were a few bits I wasn't keen on (notably Spider-Man asking Carol how she'd get through the army when a few minutes before she'd literally blasted through Thanos' ship and destroyed it by herself, and then all the women saying "We'll help". It was too cheesy and Carol didn't need their help) and I thought it was a lot more messy than Infinity War, but in terms of character development it was outstanding and all the original Avengers got an excellent send-off or conclusion to this arc. I hope Thor and Hulk stick around, but I'm excited to see where they take the Avengers in the next film. It definitely needs to be a smaller more personal conflict next time, as it's impossible to raise the stakes from Thanos' plan so don't even try.

Has Stephen already surpassed the Ancient One in power? She said he is supposed to be the "best of us all"?

I took it to mean he's morally the best.

Did anyone else think that the characters power levels were all over the place?

Thanos dies easily within seconds in the beginning.
At the final fight, IM+Thor+Cap are getting their asses kicked by Thanos.
Cap gets the hammer, kicks Thanos's ass.
Captain Marvel kicks his ass, then she doesn't.

Oh well

You've misread a ton of things which the film explains:

1) Thanos' body is fucked at the beginning. He's limping around and the gauntlet is fused to him. Using the full power of the stones twice within a couple of weeks has nearly killed him. Plus, they have Captain Marvel restrain him and Thor surprised everyone by cutting off his head.
2) The three of them are fighting peak Thanos with his preferred weapon and Thor is very out of shape. I can't remember how Tony does against him but they only really gain the upper hand once Cap picks up Mjolnir, and that's because he fucking smashes Thanos relentlessly with lightning attacks.
3) Binary Captain Marvel is presumably stronger than base Thanos. She doesn't let him close his fist so he can't use the stones, so he plucks out the Power Stone and uses it to punch her. If you remember from the end of GotG1, the Power Stone can cause a chain reaction to destroy a planet, so a hit from it would take out even her.

1) What condition must be met for Hawkeye/Black Widow to be able to sacrifice eachother? Best friend status?
2) Were they always able to extract the reality stone with their technology? I thought they couldnt in Thor 2 and the dark elf ended up taking it out.

I don't know about 2 because I'm not watching Thor: The Dark World again, but in Infinity War Red Skull says to get the stone you must sacrifice "that which you love". Nat and Clint are old friends and undoubtedly love each other. Nat is the only thing which brought him back from his murderous Yakuza rampage, and she's probably the closest thing he has to family that is left.
 

Egida

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,378
A friend asked me how is it possible for Thanos to bring his army from the past to the final battle. I told him it was his army in the present he called (what remained of it), and that Thanos was the only one who time-traveled but then.. how is it possible for his lieutenants to be alive, didn't some of them die in the Wakanda battle?
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
THAT said, imagine being a character like Steve or Carol who'd give up anything to save people, and finding out that your actions and sacrifices don't actually save everyone, but you're actually one of the many millions Steves/Carols across many million realities. That you're easing up a tiny fraction of the pain and suffering you struggle with

It's one I don't like alternate realities/multiverses. At some point, after you find out there's a number of realities where everyone died horribly or where the bad guy turned everyone into frogs, and that if this reality went to shit there'd be thousands more similar realities where things still work, that Natasha did sacrifice herself and die but there's probably millions other Natashas out there still alive, everything loses a bit of... impact. That's why at some point in the comics they go from having bad guys killing people to having bad guys killing universes, and I'm not interested in that kind of stuff. It's not for me.
I imagine they'd be fine with it because their concern is saving the people who they can save, not saving 'everyone, everwhere, ever".

It sounds more than anything like you feel that the only way heroes can get validation is if they are objectively the most important people who save everyone in the context of their universes. Like, yeah, there are an infinite amount of Natasha's out there, but most of them will not be THEIR natasha and it won't be the same. Hell, the movie itself introduces this concept: Gamora died loving Quill, but when Quill is reunited with the 2014 Gamora, she doesn't give a shit about him, because shes' a different person and she's not gonna turn out the same as the old one did. The old one is dead and gone forever. That there is another Gamora is there to give you some hope at having another chance with the character, but it's not going to be the same as with the old one.

And yeah, writers who are concerned with this way of thinking feel the need to put entire universes at stake because they think people won't care unless they threaten EVERYTHING EVER. It's pretty lame when that happens. But that's more of a sign of a hack writer to me. Or, if that's too contentious, a sign of a writer whose insecure about their ability to keep their viewers invested. Good writers are ones who can acknowledge that there are hundreds of, say, Tony Starks and still get you to care about the death of this one in particular. Which they did.
 

TheYanger

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,135
Yeah, Thor has probably interacted with the most other major characters of anyone in the MCU. Just off the top of my head he has had interactions or conversations with:

- the other OG Avengers (Cap, Tony, Nat, Clint, and Banner)
- Carol
- All of the Guardians (Quill, Gamora, Rocket, Groot, Drax, Nebula, and Mantis)
- Strange
- Rhodey
- Fury
- Valkyrie
- Wanda
- Vision

The only other really comparable character in that regard is probably Tony.
Eh...he doesn't really have any connection to basically any of the earth based characters post ultron though, which is quite a few.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,800
2) When they tested the time machine with Scott Lang. Time was flowing through Scott, since he appeared as a baby and then an old man. So if they want, they can basically make Steve young again? Or that was a malfunction right? So they could change back the settings to let time flow through Steve.

Yup. Although I do believe that they'll address the perils of time manipulation in a future movie, maybe a Dr Strange sequel.

You know, Gamora's death was "irreversible" and she's back in the primary timeline. You'd be "stealing" a Black Widow from a newly created alternate timeline, but isn't this solution to bring her back possible? (I doubt they'll do it and it would be unsatisfying, but, you know. It's possible.)

Sure, but then in that timeline there's no Natasha to sacrifice herself for the soul stone and that timeline loses to Thanos.

Anyways the Russos did a Q&A in China, some interesting answers (translation is a bit rough):
That Russo's explanation makes sense to me. Should be the end of it.

It is. Assuming that the translation is correct, it is canon that Steve lived his life with a Peggy in a different timeline and returned to give the shield to Sam.
 
Nov 30, 2017
2,750
My favourite MCU movie is still Winter Soldier. I'm all about the small scale stuff, and there's meaning in small scale stuff too. The best moments in EG for me are in the first hour.

THAT said, imagine being a character like Steve or Carol who'd give up anything to save people, and finding out that your actions and sacrifices don't actually save everyone, but you're actually one of the many millions Steves/Carols across many million realities. That you're easing up a tiny fraction of the pain and suffering you struggle with.

It's one I don't like alternate realities/multiverses. At some point, after you find out there's a number of realities where everyone died horribly or where the bad guy turned everyone into frogs, and that if this reality went to shit there'd be thousands more similar realities where things still work, that Natasha did sacrifice herself and die but there's probably millions other Natashas out there still alive, everything loses a bit of... impact. That's why at some point in the comics they go from having bad guys killing people to having bad guys killing universes, and I'm not interested in that kind of stuff. It's not for me.

You are only thinking that their actions lead to the doom of those universes. How about the 2014 universe where Thanos doesn't exist anymore? Isn't that a good thing since that universe will not suffer a snap NOW?
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
I imagine they'd be fine with it because their concern is saving the people who they can save, not saving 'everyone, everwhere, ever".

It sounds more than anything like you feel that the only way heroes can get validation is if they are objectively the most important people who save everyone in the context of their universes. Like, yeah, there are an infinite amount of Natasha's out there, but most of them will not be THEIR natasha and it won't be the same. Hell, the movie itself introduces this concept: Gamora died loving Quill, but when Quill is reunited with the 2014 Gamora, she doesn't give a shit about him, because shes' a different person and she's not gonna turn out the same as the old one did. The old one is dead and gone forever. That there is another Gamora is there to give you some hope at having another chance with the character, but it's not going to be the same as with the old one.

And yeah, writers who are concerned with this way of thinking feel the need to put entire universes at stake because they think people won't care unless they threaten EVERYTHING EVER. It's pretty lame when that happens. But that's more of a sign of a hack writer to me. Or, if that's too contentious, a sign of a writer whose insecure about their ability to keep their viewers invested. Good writers are ones who can acknowledge that there are hundreds of, say, Tony Starks and still get you to care about the death of this one in particular. Which they did.

I respect your opinion, but as I said, I jumped off the comic books train when this stuff began to happen (because that's what comicbook storylines are now, multiverses collapsing and people snapping entire galaxies out of existance), and the introduction of multiverses/alternate realities really tarnished my enjoyment of the movie, so I guess they actually did not manage to make us all still care.

Unless people who feel like me are whatever the fan equivalent of hack writers are, I guess. Hack fans? I don't know.
 

Arthands

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,039
Yes, and they were the closest ship of course. Come on, we're all smarter than this. Things in these movies happen because they need to happen, and it's fine. It's just a bit jarring to see the "lol people are stupid, the universe is huuuuuge" argument used when the entire saga is made of happy "incidents" like Strange suddenly getting interested in Loki for some reason.

And we can also use natural occurrence to explain why happy coincidence doesn't occur everytime.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
You are only thinking that their actions lead to the doom of those universes. How about the 2014 universe where Thanos doesn't exist anymore? Isn't that a good thing since that universe will not suffer a snap NOW?

We'll never get to know. That's the thing, unless you have such a sense of self importance that you think YOUR universe is the only one that matters, something like what we're introduced to in EG should probably push into nihilism or existential, cosmic dread.

Somewhere there's a universe where the Avengers win without losing Nat or Tony. There's a universe where the action scenes were more exciting. There's a universe where Steve Rogers married Chewbacca. It's an Expanded Universe, and those two words evoke too much pain and headaches for me.

But I fully understand it's MY problem. Entire industries have been built around this kind of scenarios. People see that Disney has a What If? series coming and seem excited, and I'm like "Oh god no, please no". It's my very personal opinion, just that.
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
And we can also use natural occurrence to explain why happy coincidence doesn't occur everytime.

It's ultimately not important. We can also say that there's a necessity to compact events for the movie format - someone else could find Thor, and eventually he could meet the Guardians, and all that would work, but it would be too long.

I'm not the kind of guy who doesn't accept that corners need to be cut and consistency needs to be thrown out of the window to make fantasy fiction work, really. But if people come at me saying "Your criticism is silly and in bad faith, this all makes perfect sense!" then everything is fair game.
 

Window

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,282
This exceeded all my expectations. Really well done. Still a bit too jokey at parts though.

Oh and when are we getting a modern day Samurai doing his thing in the streets of Tokyo film from the Russo's?
 
Nov 30, 2017
2,750
I hadnt even thought about how Tony's snap would not dust Gamora as well. I suppose in the moment you use the Gauntlet you get a degree of omnipresence that gives them a perception we don't see on screen.

Where's Gamora? Hey I'll do you one better, Who's Gamora? I'll do you one better Why is Gamora? Or Starlord losing his shit on Thanos right in front of him. Why would he snap Gamora out of existence?
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
I respect your opinion, but as I said, I jumped off the comic books train when this stuff began to happen (because that's what comicbook storylines are now, multiverses collapsing and people snapping entire galaxies out of existance), and the introduction of multiverses/alternate realities really tarnished my enjoyment of the movie, so I guess they actually did not manage to make us all still care.

Unless people who feel like me are whatever the fan equivalent of hack writers are, I guess. Hack fans? I don't know.

I'm not specifically talking about comics, since I kinda don't read them. I collect trade paperbacks of specific storylines I hear are good, but I don't read comics regularly and what I do read tends to be pretty old and often seperated from whatever event is happening. In fact, I think the last time I read a superhero comic regularly was back before the New 52 ended.

So, I'm not coming at this from the perspective of a comic fan who likes his big comic events. I'm just coming at this from my experience in how I notice that large scale stakes generally don't really influence small scale stakes in terms of how invested a person is in stories of all kinds, from whatever medium. There are books I read where I am not all that invested in the big political fight scenes, but hold my breathe when a girl sees a random bird picking at a pipe and derives an intense meaning from it. I didn't even know what that meaning is at the time nor how she derived it, but I was in HER head, so because she cared, I cared.

I honestly don't mean to be insulting, and I apologize if I have been, but what your describing is simply....wrong to me. It's not totally alien, like I get your logic, the idea that you think Thanos is a once in a lifetime event but then you have the implication that he's not, so he's not special...but it's a reasoning that only works on a very shallow level that doesn't understand that storytelling is about getting you to care about the things that a fictional character cares about. It makes no difference how common or rare a thing is in an objective sense, the important thing for is that it's special to the character whose story your telling. Thanos is special because he's special to Thor, Cap, and Tony. I would still argue that he's special to Captain Marvel, but even if he wasn't, doesn't matter, he's special to the main characters.
 

APZonerunner

Features Editor at VG247.com
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
1,725
England
Speaking of which, I saw Winston Duke in the credits but didn't see him at all in the huge crowds of people that turn up for the final battle. When I watch the film again I'm going to keep my eyes peeled for him. Maybe I blinked for too long and completely missed him in the chaos.

He's there; he's actually surprisingly front-and-center during the initial charge towards Thanos' troops. Like, between Cap and BP.
 

Bishop89

What Are Ya' Selling?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,528
Melbourne, Australia
Bit off topic but..
A friend asked me how is it possible for Thanos to bring his army from the past to the final battle. I told him it was his army in the present he called (what remained of it), and that Thanos was the only one who time-traveled but then.. how is it possible for his lieutenants to be alive, didn't some of them die in the Wakanda battle?
What?
I'm pretty sure his entire army was in his ship. Everything was coming out of it
 

Visanideth

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,771
I honestly don't mean to be insulting, and I apologize if I have been, but what your describing is simply....wrong to me. It's not totally alien, like I get your logic, the idea that you think Thanos is a once in a lifetime event but then you have the implication that he's not, so he's not special...but it's a reasoning that only works on a very shallow level that doesn't understand that storytelling is about getting you to care about the things that a fictional character cares about. It makes no difference how common or rare a thing is, the important thing for is that it's special to the character whose story your telling, and Thanos is special to Thor, Cap, and Tony.

Mind you, I'm not saying "Oh my god EG was the worst I wish I got my tickets back worst 3 hours of my life". I loved the movie, I loved/hated the feeling of closure it gave me (as it should be) and I think they (mostly) stuck the landing on an impossibly complex storytelling project.

I'm just saying, I wish they handled a couple things differently, because I don't like that type of story, and since I have the precedent of comic books to see where those kind of stories end, and I'm not fan of that spectacle over substance aestethic, this may be a very good point for me to jump off. I'll wait and see where things go.
 

Bloodarmz

Member
Jul 11, 2018
705
IGN did an interview with Jim Starlin about the events of Endgame:


Key point: he thinks Marvel is hesitant to use cosmic beings such as Death for now but thinks that will change after a couple of Dr Strange films
 

LL_Decitrig

User-Requested Ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,334
Sunderland
Was great just to see that arcs of the main pillers (Tony and Steve) of the infinity saga come to a close. They really did carry phase 1 to 3 from beginning to end. When i think of Tony and Steve i think of the scene in Avenger 1, where Steve tells Tony

"I know guys with none of that and worth ten of you. I've seen the footage. The only thing that you really fight for is yourself. You're not the guy to make the sacrifice play. To lay down on the wire and let the other guy crawl over you."

Tony's growth to be that guy that is willing to lay everything on the line and make the sacrifice play for everybody else was great. Tony will remain the greatest character in the Marvel universe.

To be brutally honest, Steve is proven wrong about that in the same film, when Tony takes the nuclear missile through the wormhole to detonate there. He saves thousands of people in New York City, with no realistic plan to return and knowing that the rest of the team will have to close the wormhole. It's a pure sacrifice play, like jumping on a hand grenade. It's only a combination of team work and good luck that saves him.



By Endgame Tony has long been established as a team player.
 

DeltaRed

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Apr 27, 2018
5,746
https://www.forbes.com/sites/markhu...lly-a-plot-hole-at-all-spoilers/#41d9e8cb19e3

The 'Avengers: Endgame' Plot-Hole Is Not Really A Plot-Hole At All (Spoilers)

This is a good breakdown of how Cap ended up where he did within the time travel rules the film established.
People have probably already covered this but the explanation of Cap travelling back to the bench doesn't really work. He is in an alternate reality, he may indeed go beyond the date he traveled back to return the stones but his travelling backwards would only result in him being on the bench for the alt-reality with Peggy, not the main reality with Sam/Bucky/Hulk waiting.

I know I just keep hearing this well if he snapped Thanos' army out of existence then Gamora should be dust too. And I just question them Why?
Why wouldn't she be? Presumeably Tony wishes for Thanos and his army to be dusted. She came through on his ship along with the rest of the army and we see her fighting alongside Nebula for Thanos like 20 minutes earlier in the 2014-reality.
 

R.D.Blax

Member
Oct 26, 2017
852
It would also create a paradox - you need the stone for the snap, you can't have the stone without the soul, if you undo the trade you undo the stone.

I don't think there is any kind of paradox involved ? The way I see it, you can't just revive a sacrifice using the stone power because they just don't allow it. A deal is a deal and you can't cheat your way out using the Infinity Stones because they are the one making theses rules. I doubt if there was another way to bring her back, it would just undo anything that happened post sacrifice because thing just don't work like that, but good luck finding way to get a soul back from the Soul Stone
 

Veelk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,705
Mind you, I'm not saying "Oh my god EG was the worst I wish I got my tickets back worst 3 hours of my life". I loved the movie, I loved/hated the feeling of closure it gave me (as it should be) and I think they (mostly) stuck the landing on an impossibly complex storytelling project.

I'm just saying, I wish they handled a couple things differently, because I don't like that type of story, and since I have the precedent of comic books to see where those kind of stories end, and I'm not fan of that spectacle over substance aestethic, this may be a very good point for me to jump off. I'll wait and see where things go.
I mean, sure I'm not saying you hated it or anything like that, and I don't deny you to not like what they did. You just were talking about how Cap Marvel fighting Thanos level threats as her day job diminishes that Thanos is an existential threat to the Earth Avengers and that was the case for everyone, and I wanted to contest that. I would say that it's not the case for most people either, for reasons I explained in the previous posts. Again, if you feel that way, I can't speak to your personal feelings on it, but I don't get the impression a lot of people feel that way.

It will be interesting to see where things go from here though.

To be brutally honest, Steve is proven wrong about that in the same film, when Tony takes the nuclear missile through the wormhole to detonate there. He saves thousands of people in New York City, with no realistic plan to return and knowing that the rest of the team will have to close the wormhole. It's a pure sacrifice play, like jumping on a hand grenade. It's only a combination of team work and good luck that saves him.

That scene was actually a point of contention for me, since I agree that it was him making the sacrificial play, but it was also one sacrifice that wasn't entirely necessary to make. By which I mean, all he actually had to do was throw the bomb through the portal, and he probably could have even thrown it at the ship before he entered the portal as well. The argument he had with Steve was that he didn't have to make the sacrificial play because he would always think his way out of the situation without having to die for it, and he ignored waht seemed to me like an obvious solution. Like, remember that it wasn't his plan to defeat the Chitauri army with that bomb, he just needed to get it away from New York, and him destroying the ship and the army was just a bonus from things working out better than expected.
 

vanmardigan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
710
Saw it a second time last night with my 5 year old. Unfortunately, I sat next to a dude who had obviously seen the movie, but was with a group of friends and was acting like he hadn't. Dude kept low key spoiling everything seconds before it happened. Revealing lines, plot points ("the glove is too powerful, it's going to kill iron Man. Or maybe not"). I don't know what it is about this movie that makes it so incredibly hard for people not to spoil. It didn't bug me and my son didn't pick up on any of it, but his friends must have been so mad. It was obvious 5 minutes into the movie he had seen it before. The longer into the movie, the more he interjected. Ugh.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,322
The branching timeline would create a new universe at the moment it branches from the main timeline. Keeping all the history of the main timeline up to the point it branches off.

So both timelines would be identical till let's say a decision has to be made to nuke a country in 1950. The moment a decision is made 2 universe will be created. 1 where the country is nuked, the other where it is not.

Every decision made that has a butterfly effect will branch into a new universe

So, this is a 3D way of looking at at 4D concept.

Yes time travelers branch to alternate timelines. But these timelines aren't "new".
The instant the time travelers access the alternate timeline, the timeline already has a history that extends back to the dawn of time. So the notion of it being "created" by the time jump becomes void.

What happens is the one of an infinite number of previously parallel timelines , receives a visitor, which causes it to shift its trajectory, ie, it's "new" compared to the ones it used to parallel.

This is what allows Russo's old Cap explanation to work. Cap "jumped back" to his primary timeline. He didn't create a "new" one. We know this because we've experienced it for the last 10 years. But it is indeed a branch from the one he'd been living in. So this confirms travelers are jumping to preexisting timelines, and that existence isn't defined by the experience of individuals that time-jump.
 
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Crashman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,090
I wonder if there's an infinite conga line of time traveling Caps taking each other's happy endings. It looks like tur Captain America traveled to a past where he likely had just been frozen, and just slipped in right after so he could be with Peggy. But there should still be a frozen Captain America who is more or less like ours up until he wakes up in like 2011 and joins his version of the Avengers. You'd have to wonder how he would react to being both out of time, and learning that he technically did marry Peggy but it wasn't him but it was. Maybe he goes into another alternate past to marry Peggy, causing that past's Cap to go find another Peggy and so on and so forth.

Then Kang gets mad or something, I dunno.
 
Oct 27, 2017
15,010
A friend asked me how is it possible for Thanos to bring his army from the past to the final battle. I told him it was his army in the present he called (what remained of it), and that Thanos was the only one who time-traveled but then.. how is it possible for his lieutenants to be alive, didn't some of them die in the Wakanda battle?

Thanos, his lieutenants and his army were all from the 2014 timeline, way before the Wakanda battle. They all came through together on the ship.
 

Egida

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,378
What?
I'm pretty sure his entire army was in his ship. Everything was coming out of it
Thanos, his lieutenants and his army were all from the 2014 timeline, way before the Wakanda battle. They all came through together on the ship.
I might be misremembering it, but don't they appear like arriving in the sky? Wouldn't they need a massive amount of Pym particles to move so many people?
 
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