I still don't understand why this is the timeline Cap lives his life through if Cap went back to way before that timeline even happened. It's not like the timeline separates compeletely; they just branches.
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Avengers: Endgame |Spoiler OT| Let's go get this son of a bitch
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Exactly, he owned them without even having a stone, the man is a badass.
My thinking is that Shuri would have basically "saved" Vision's brain and given him a new body but there didn't really seem enough time for all that before she was attacked in Infinity War
I just don't think they'll go there going by what happens in this film. Even Gunn is credited as an Executive Producer like with IW. So I don't think he's going to retcon that in GotG 3. Especially with a Gamora seemingly in the current timeline.
I thought she did, but then she got attacked and snapped, so no opportunity to actually finish the job. I'm positive there's a Vision lying somewhere in Wakanda's computers, waiting to be brought back.
Not sure if this has been discussed yet, but curious how Cap returning the soul stone to Vormir went down. Would of loved to actually see Cap returning some of the stones on screen.
No, because as was stated in the film, changing the past doesn't change the present. The current timeline still exists and the snap still happened. 2014 Thanos dying just created an alternate timeline where he didn't do the snap. But this current timeline we're in still had the snap because you can't change the timeline like that.
Ignoring Cap, of course.
Sorry, i meant to say the battle against the Avengers in 2023.
I don't think it's a retcon at all. He very clearly setup Warlock in the post-credits of Guardians 2 before IW even started filming. Whatever is gonna happen has been the plan all along.
The "Carol did nothing" complaints boggle my mind. She travelled galaxies to save Tony and Nebula, then choked busted Thanos on her own, then brought down his whole fucking ship and diverted hellfire to her, then went one on one vs him and made him her bitch. Also prevented a universe ending snap. Tanked the shit out of him, the only thing she couldn't take was a power stone punch to the face.
This movie wasn't about her, but she had a lot of cool moments.
This movie wasn't about her, but she had a lot of cool moments.
Got back from the movie a while ago. Absolutely loved it. I had already spoiled myself reading the synopses and was pretty upset about what they did with Cap, but watching the movie, it totally makes sense. I guess I was expecting an Infinity War Part II in the sense of there not being much in the way of character development, but that's largely what the film focused on, and made it pretty clear that Steve hadn't actually moved on from Peggy, and vice-versa for Ms. Carter herself.
It also helps that I think it's heavily implied that Cap didn't retroactively retcon Carter's family, but actually made a seperate timeline to live out a life with her. He didn't go in with his shield (which was busted anyway), and the shield he had when he returned was clearly a different one, one that looks...I don't know, a bit more modern maybe? It gives off a more higher-tech vibe.
Little disappointed that Captain Marvel kinda just fucked off for the whole film, I was hoping that perhaps she'd have an active role (maybe forming an army to fight Thanos...but that was prior to me knowing they'd just kill present Thanos right off the bat). Also kinda annoyed that for all the talk of having an arc for Bruce Banner and the Hulk over the course of Ragnarok through Endgame, to see that he just figured it all out no problem off-screen was pretty frustrating. But I think in those cases it's simply an issue of greater priorities The movie is three hours as is, and those potential subplots, while potentially nice, aren't really necessary for the film as a whole to feel complete and satisfying.
I also feel having a past Thanos being a villain kinda dampens things a bit, since I think it'd be more satisfying with present Thanos, who instead gets killed feeling victorious. They even lampshade the fact that Scarlet Witch is getting revenge on a Thanos that hadn't done what she's getting vengeance for and didn't even have any idea who she was. Nevertheless, they make it work, and the film's strengths overpower those minor nitpicks that I can just shrug it off.
I think the time travel explanation doesn't make a lot of sense, though, and that still kind of bothers me. The Ancient One states something about the Infinity Stones needing to be all present in the universe to keep it stable or something to that effect? That could work as a narrative cop-out... except the main timeline doesn't have any Infinity Stones now, so what does that say about the stability of the main timeline? Even then, those timelines aren't gonna merge back, because the Avengers seriously fucked things in at least two of them. Cap already knows to start looking for Bucky and Loki disappeared with the Space Stone somewhere in the NY timeline, so that timeline's totally off-kilter now, and the Morag timeline now has no Gamora, no Nebula, and Thanos and his army are completely gone, so who even knows where that timeline is going, but it's definitely not going back to normal now.
And bringing the stones back to the Asgard and 70s timeline probably didn't change too much, but it's just gonna put them on the path to Thanos inevitably anyway, right? It's the same situation with the NY timeline if Loki running off doesn't fuck with things too much, but who knows. In any case, are those timelines gonna have a similar run in with Thanos? Then they go back in time to undo things, take the stones and split more timelines... I just gotta imagine there had to be a cleaner time travel solution somewhere.
It also helps that I think it's heavily implied that Cap didn't retroactively retcon Carter's family, but actually made a seperate timeline to live out a life with her. He didn't go in with his shield (which was busted anyway), and the shield he had when he returned was clearly a different one, one that looks...I don't know, a bit more modern maybe? It gives off a more higher-tech vibe.
Little disappointed that Captain Marvel kinda just fucked off for the whole film, I was hoping that perhaps she'd have an active role (maybe forming an army to fight Thanos...but that was prior to me knowing they'd just kill present Thanos right off the bat). Also kinda annoyed that for all the talk of having an arc for Bruce Banner and the Hulk over the course of Ragnarok through Endgame, to see that he just figured it all out no problem off-screen was pretty frustrating. But I think in those cases it's simply an issue of greater priorities The movie is three hours as is, and those potential subplots, while potentially nice, aren't really necessary for the film as a whole to feel complete and satisfying.
I also feel having a past Thanos being a villain kinda dampens things a bit, since I think it'd be more satisfying with present Thanos, who instead gets killed feeling victorious. They even lampshade the fact that Scarlet Witch is getting revenge on a Thanos that hadn't done what she's getting vengeance for and didn't even have any idea who she was. Nevertheless, they make it work, and the film's strengths overpower those minor nitpicks that I can just shrug it off.
I think the time travel explanation doesn't make a lot of sense, though, and that still kind of bothers me. The Ancient One states something about the Infinity Stones needing to be all present in the universe to keep it stable or something to that effect? That could work as a narrative cop-out... except the main timeline doesn't have any Infinity Stones now, so what does that say about the stability of the main timeline? Even then, those timelines aren't gonna merge back, because the Avengers seriously fucked things in at least two of them. Cap already knows to start looking for Bucky and Loki disappeared with the Space Stone somewhere in the NY timeline, so that timeline's totally off-kilter now, and the Morag timeline now has no Gamora, no Nebula, and Thanos and his army are completely gone, so who even knows where that timeline is going, but it's definitely not going back to normal now.
And bringing the stones back to the Asgard and 70s timeline probably didn't change too much, but it's just gonna put them on the path to Thanos inevitably anyway, right? It's the same situation with the NY timeline if Loki running off doesn't fuck with things too much, but who knows. In any case, are those timelines gonna have a similar run in with Thanos? Then they go back in time to undo things, take the stones and split more timelines... I just gotta imagine there had to be a cleaner time travel solution somewhere.
Yup RDJ knocked it out of the park. But Gwyneth Paltrow as well in those scenes.
When Tony says he figured it out, and then in the conversation she says to him "getting you to stop will always be one of my greatest failures". Then when he lets go after she says "Tony, listen to me. We're going to be alright.". Just everything was just perfect about the two, or three of them (because him and Morgan was perfect as well).
I was totally expecting a majin boo-esque "make everyone forget this ever happened" ending
"The snap" is probably going to be the new "New York" for the MCU going forward, where tons of new stories stem from it in some way or another.
Definitely on the "snap causes mutants to appear in the MCU' hype train
"The snap" is probably going to be the new "New York" for the MCU going forward, where tons of new stories stem from it in some way or another.
Definitely on the "snap causes mutants to appear in the MCU' hype train
Infinity War made certain to show that Shuri actually managed to cleanly stop what she's working on before Corvus got to her. It's not certain whether she'd actually finished the job, but at least she's not abruptly taken out mid-working.
Yes but IW and Endgame were already (being) written at that point, and him as EP would already know what the story would be. As I said earlier I don't think they're going to backtrack the Soul Stone deaths. I fully expect the Gamora in Endgame to be the Gamora going forward. Perhaps they're going to do some stuff with her memory, but I don't see them getting back IW Gamora.
It's a logical out but that makes me wonder how they can build up the necessary history for characters like Xavier, Wolverine, and Magneto. The snap doesn't change the past either, unless they go back on that rule later on.
No. They have not. They're not even scrutinizing the rest of the movie like they are Carol.
Will see how they handle this in the future, if they even do.
For now to me there is no new timelines and no paradoxe, when young thanos time travel to the future the snap and the death of his old self already happened, for the "past present" it was the future but for the "present present" it's the past and it don't care that thanos time traveled after it.
One thing I would have liked to see during the wrap up was maybe a quick scene of Peter enjoying being back on Earth. Maybe just a quick shot of him eating at a diner or something before heading back into space.
By the way. Bucky totally knew what Steve was going to do in the end. Bruce and Sam were expecting Cap to come right back. But before he left, Bucky looks sad and tells Cap "I'm going to miss you." And their goodbye seems definitive. And when he sees Cap on the bench he smiles and tells Sam to go ahead without him. I think he knew ahead of time. Maybe he saw Cap out of the ice living his normal life in the past but never said anything.
And realistically it shouldn't have been about her.
She;s the next iteration, probably a leader of the next Avengers team.
Does this mean we can have like, 3? 4? Potential mcu's?
What-ifs galore?
Just got out. My thoughts in the car:
- It was very good. The movie moved at a pretty steady clip, which was good. I don't think it sagged in the middle (like Thor), so decent pacing. I loved Cap and Tony's little excursion into 1970
- Burning the flesh off "Present Nebula's" cybernetic arm was a good touch for distinguishing the two
- Disappointed that there was so little of Carol. She was badass but I wanted to see her actually interact with the Avengers, especially with so many being written out. She has pretty strong and interesting dynamics with Tony and Steve in the comics that can't be exploited in the MCU
- Hated that Natasha died "permanently". This was the first movie that actually made me really understand and like her as a character (the "red on the ledger" stuff from AoU was so much nonsense whereas Johansson really sold the guilt and belonging in this movie) so of course she's gone by the second act
- I hope that Thor leaving Valkyrie in charge of New Asgard doesn't mean we won't see more of her in hypothetical future Thor 4
- I wonder how the fallout will be handled in Spider-Man Far From Home. The events of Endgame certainly explain Peter's reluctance regarding superheroics. But did his entire friend group get dusted? Or did they move on believing he was dead.
Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.
I need to see this again. Immediately.
Considering they were still in high school at the end, they definitely got dusted
Well, if (whoever found the ship) had been a few days faster, might have stopped Thanos from destroying the stones.
I also wondered why they didn't plan on going back to right after the snap, go to the Garden and kill Thanos and have all the stones in their possession (and all in 1 place instead of 3-4 places in different times). He was weakened, and could probably be taken out fast enough before he could do anything. Get the stones (without sacrificing Nat), go back to the MCU timeline without worrying about a 2014 Thanos showing up, and snapping people back. The End, Nat and Tony live, Bruce still has to wear the Barry Bonds cast.
Just turned that 3 hour movie into probably....1 hour.
That show was announced with Endgame in mind. Pretty sure the show will deal with Falcon not wanting to assume the mantle of Captain America right off the bat.
The problem with Carol for me has always been just that, a problem with Carol. She's always felt like a character written inconsistently, a lot of the time being shown as very emotionless but then sometimes very emotional. I've got no problem with Brie's portrayal at all. She feels like Carol Danvers, just without some of those hard swings.
I hope they try to adapt some of the themes from Sam's comic when he was Captain America. He does things like help out migrants to America and that causes Fox News to freak out and demand he give the shield back.
Just got home, that was phenomenal. One thing that has always sucked about superhero comics is that there can never be an ending. And all progress gets reset eventually. Forty years later, it's still the same characters doing the same stuff.
Because time is finite IRL, the MCU version of these stories got something that MAKES them complete stories: a beginning, middle and unlike the source material, an end. And it was beautifully done.
Because time is finite IRL, the MCU version of these stories got something that MAKES them complete stories: a beginning, middle and unlike the source material, an end. And it was beautifully done.
The existence of new timelines is exactly what makes it possible that there's no paradoxes, though. Like Nebula killing her past self should be a paradox, but because this past Nebula is already someone from a "new timeline," it's not a paradox anymore.
They were trying to risk not fucking with Thanos with the gauntlet. Even in a weakened state he could have snapped them again, and he would have to stopped them fucking with his win.
Her character arc literally is that she was brainwashed into believing her emotions were a weakness and that she should suppress them, then she learns to embrace them.... but you know that programming doesn't go away either.
Yeah I guess so then. I was talking more about the comic version though and just my personal thoughts on her portrayal over the years.
Starlite I don't think Thanos will show up considering his past version and present time version are dead. He went into the future and got rekt. Present day one got his head chopped off and last one got snapped away. Unless there is another way for him to exist but I don't think there is imo.
I cant tell if this is an agreement or an disagreement with what i had said.
Also whats the difference between a branch an an alternative timeline, just because they have the same steam doesnt mean it helps the issue.
Loki can be resolved if his show brings him and the stone back to where they need to be.
Loki and endgame have to be the same.
-Avengers go back in time, in one timeline they take the mind/space/time stone. During which Loki makes an escape, cap bodies cap and the sorcerer and banner talk.
-Cap goes back and returns the the stones to those moments. Then when hes done he heads back and lives his life with peggy, staying out of the events that would be taking place as to not split off this timeline, meaning he was always with her the whole time.
-That means you have to apply the same logic to loki. Which means we can assume that loki had always escaped and something during his mini series will cause him to go right back to where hes supposed to be in the end.
-Theres no squaring cap going back to the moments the stones/hammer were taken aand returning them and allowing cap to age into the current timeline. Not without Loki's story ending where it starts
-Dead thanos universe doesnt have this problem because the teams were split so their events do not have the same origin.
Just wanted to post something on the time travel theories used in Endgame, as I've seen posts speculating on timelines folding in on themselves, whether Cap was Peggy's husband all along, etc...
As far as I understand, there's a bit of exposition in the movie that clarifies this just before they do Ant-Man's test; that the MCU is using the fixed timeline approach rather than a Back to the Future paradox one, a bit like Lost, i.e. "whatever happened, happened." It's not possible to 'go back' and change the past in a way that changes your present.
2014 Gamora is actually doing this too, but from the opposite perspective. She's traveled forward into Endgame but with the paradox theory, she'd already know who the Guardians are when meeting them in their first movie (which she doesn't).
Cap's husband was just some guy, Howard never recalls meeting Tony, and Infinity War Thanos still snaps his fingers. These events didn't happen in The Avengers' past. They happened in their future.
As far as I understand, there's a bit of exposition in the movie that clarifies this just before they do Ant-Man's test; that the MCU is using the fixed timeline approach rather than a Back to the Future paradox one, a bit like Lost, i.e. "whatever happened, happened." It's not possible to 'go back' and change the past in a way that changes your present.
2014 Gamora is actually doing this too, but from the opposite perspective. She's traveled forward into Endgame but with the paradox theory, she'd already know who the Guardians are when meeting them in their first movie (which she doesn't).
Cap's husband was just some guy, Howard never recalls meeting Tony, and Infinity War Thanos still snaps his fingers. These events didn't happen in The Avengers' past. They happened in their future.
Yeah im expecting this in a upcoming post credits scene or during BP 2, or possibly during Wanda/Vision.
Totally, only issue is the 2014 thanos universe and Caps shield. The shield you can handwave away even though i think it's dumb and no one has offered a good explanation.
The thanos from 2014 leaving his time absolutely creates a separate timeline, as the sorcerer showed the changes cluld cause.
The real answer has to be that the main timeline always happened and that included caps time travel team, but there is a new branched off reality as well created by black widow's team where thanos never gets the stones because he leaves that timeline.
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