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DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Nah, the outlet is 1000% doing it's job here. I'd have gone in even harder myself, they went easy on her.

They could have just published an article on their site and then requested comments.

I don't see how inviting her without telling her they were going to humiliate her live is doing their job. It was basically a trap. It's nasty and sensationalist. It's something more fit for, I don't know, tabloids or reality television shows.
 
How unbelievably embarrassing. I think it's weird that no follow-up research on the subjects revealed that they were alive after "Death Recorded" which would have tipped her off to the term being something other than she thought it was, but good on her for handling it well.


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Deleted member 12790

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
24,537
Wow. Think of all the time she spent on this book and a lot of it is just plain wrong because she and her editors didn't google "death recorded". At least for me the correct definition is the first result which is on Wikipedia.

Speaking of not doing research:


that wikipedia page was created yesterday, because of this incident.

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The genesis of that wikipedia article:

In British courts, beginning in 1823, a sentence of death recorded meant that the judge was abstaining from issuing a capital punishment sentence in cases where the judge foresaw that a royal pardon would be forthcoming if a proper death sentence were issued. Royal pardons for capital punishment had become routine at the time for most common crimes. A death recorded sentence allowed the judge to meet common law sentencing precedent while avoiding mocking by the sentenced or the public who realised an actual death penalty sentence was likely to be overridden.[1][2][3]

Because the term means the opposite of a death sentence, it has caused confusion among some 21st century authors.[4]

[
 

bossmonkey

Avenger
Nov 9, 2017
2,504
How unbelievably embarrassing. I think it's weird that no follow-up research on the subjects revealed that they were alive after "Death Recorded" which would have tipped her off to the term being something other than she thought it was, but good on her for handling it well.


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Holy shit...

I must say she handled it very well.

Well yeah i mean her options were raving lunatic who denies everything, mea culpa, or radio silence. I'm sorry but judging by her past i'm not giving her points for admitting she's a terrible researcher.
 

Zhukov

Banned
Dec 6, 2017
2,641
I think she handled that pretty well considering.

I was expecting a cringe-fest meltdown. Disappointed.
 
Well yeah i mean her options were raving lunatic who denies everything, mea culpa, or radio silence. I'm sorry but judging by her past i'm not giving her points for admitting she's a terrible researcher.

Her options also included attacking the guy who pointed it out, downplaying it, pretending it didn't matter at all, being sullen or defensive, etc., etc., but she didn't, unlike many other people when confronted with embarrassing mistakes. I might not like her or her work, but I can admit she handled it in a classy way. That's not giving her a pass for bad research.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Does anyone have the full interview exchange? I want to hear the rest of it, especially her response to the point about the man being pardoned from raping a child. Did she not know that his case was based on rape or did she know and still lump this rape case in with gay men being punished for homosexual love? I'm not sure which would be worse.

The full interview exchange is literally linked to in the second sentence of the OP lol
 

bossmonkey

Avenger
Nov 9, 2017
2,504
Her options also included attacking the guy who pointed it out, downplaying it, pretending it didn't matter at all, being sullen or defensive, etc., etc., but she didn't, unlike many other people when confronted with embarrassing mistakes. I might not like her or her work, but I can admit she handled it in a classy way. That's not giving her a pass for bad research.

Pretty sure everything you just pointed out would fall under raving lunatic.
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,936
Well yeah i mean her options were raving lunatic who denies everything, mea culpa, or radio silence. I'm sorry but judging by her past i'm not giving her points for admitting she's a terrible researcher.
No idea what she did in her past. She's probably not the brightest licht.
But admitting mistakes is more than a lot of people here are capable of. Always a good thing.
 

mclem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,460
I mean, she had the definition of "death" and the definition of "recorded" right. She just didn't realize that in random sentences of her documents the words death recorded when combined had a specific definition compared than when they are not combined.

Strictly speaking, if I'm understanding pardoning correctly, the term is absolutely correct: The death is recorded. It just didn't happen.
 

Subpar Scrub

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,576
Rule 1 of law school for me - use the commonly applied meaning for words, but never rely on them. Especially in the context that they're from old legislation or case law.

Huh. Inviting her to a interview and dropping this bomb live on air is not very cool at all IMO. There were less sensationalist ways to handle this.

Won't someone please think of the poor author spreading misinformation on facts that you can disprove by googling them?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
A vomitorium isn't actually where people threw up. It's a misconception.




Iunno, maybe she stopped researching after the death recorded part. Maybe they just lived very dull lives after they got out of prison. I don't know what she was thinking.

To be fair, a vomitorium can be more accurately described that way than "death recorded" can be to say "they died."

Although in a sense they all eventually died, so
 

Huey

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,201
jesus... I've never read wolf but always understood her to be quite a respected author and academic, hard to see how this could happen :|
 

Acorn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,972
Scotland

Lol just read this authors wiki, pretty much every book has been called out for various journalistic sins. It's a wonder the publisher doesn't have an entire team devoted to just fact checking her works.

This is a perfect example of right-wing conspiracy theorist, LOL. Their research is as good as this author's.
On this occasion she is a left wing conspiracy theorist sadly. According to the wiki she also started up conspiracy theories around occupy and other shit too.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
This is why we need to maintain linguistic purity. "Death recorded" should not imply "pardoned/no death" any more than "literally" should imply "figuratively".
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,108
Austria
This is why we need to maintain linguistic purity. "Death recorded" should not imply "pardoned/no death" any more than "literally" should imply "figuratively".
Nah, I like it. Lay out some linguistic traps for researchers.
I wonder if anyone will ever take "I could care less" literally for a book about, idk, spoiler culture in the early 21st century or something.
 

Irminsul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,040
This is why we need to maintain linguistic purity. "Death recorded" should not imply "pardoned/no death" any more than "literally" should imply "figuratively".
Linguistic purity only works if you also don't have any evolution in languages over time, which isn't really all that realistic. It's also not predictable, just look at the changing meaning of "gay". How would anyone, say, in the 1970s ever predict it would become synonymous with "male homosexual"?

As for the topic at hand, I can actually see the logic behind "death recorded": it was only recorded, as in, just one for the books. From a modern standpoint, sure, it looks like a really weird way of saying "pardoned". On the other hand I'd say it's also a very weird way of saying someone was executed, because that would usually include the method.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,382
I can't imagine the woman who told Al Gore to wear earth tones to appeal to women would do spmething lazy and stupid.
 

CassCade

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
2,037
I am more amazed with how well she takes it, I am not surprised that Naomi Wolf would write a book without doing proper research.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,574
I mean seriously, would anyone hearing "Death recorded" think "Well gee, I better look up the definition of that phrase!?"

No, most people would read "death recorded" as though the person was executed and their death was then recorded in the record...

Whoever thought of that phrase then decided it should be used to mean someone was pardoned is a fucking idiot, anyone with common sense could get that mixed up, and I don't blame her for letting it slip by, as it's something I'm sure most people wouldn't have even thought of it meaning that in the first place either.
When dealing with historic sources the very first thing you do is to read up on the language it's recorded in. That is the bare minimum to even begin understanding a historic source. Especially when dealing with legal documents.
This isn't some minor mistake. This is a fundamental lack of diligence. If it had been a paper... Eh still bad, but she based the whole thesis of the book on her lack of background research.