• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,087
I guess I'm a little confused why France is so upset about this. They have nuclear subs too, if you don't want Australia looking elsewhere offer them your best tech.
Part of the requirements australia put on the contract was that they should be diesel powered subs (that could be converted to nuclear in the future). France offered that option and was part of the reason they won vs Japan.
If Australia wanted to modify the deal to be nuclear, they could have done so with France too.

Nuclear wasnt an option at the time not they rejected them.... If they had an option then they 100% would've taken it. Nuclear subs are a huge force multiplier.
Nuclear subs might be a huge force multiplier but arent as easy to sell on a political level. What Australia did was basically order diesel subs that could be retrofitted to nuclear in the future, as the word "nuclear" was kinda toxic at the time of ordering it, but could become possible in the (near) future.
 
Last edited:

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239



I sure hope we don't end up smashing french wine bottles and trying to light french cheese on fire like we did the last time the US and france got into a foreign policy spat.
freedom fries was already trending on twitter.
 

Deleted member 48201

User requested account closure
Banned
Sep 29, 2018
1,469
if there is no statute of limitations on colonization then we're really in a can of worms. might as well wrap it all up. not saying people aren't being oppressed all over the world but your selective finger pointing speaks a lot.
You claimed that China isn't imperialistic/colonizing and I gave you a examples that they indeed are, that's not selective finger pointing.
 

G.O.O.

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,089
Part of the requirements australia put on the contract was that they should be diesel powered subs (that could be converted to nuclear in the future). France offered that option and was part of the reason they won vs Japan.
Also the work already started, which means it'll end up being a waste of time and money for everyone. It's not just the pettiness of the deal, it's the genuine disregard for something that was already on tracks like it just didn't matter.

And BoJo is the "fifth wheel on the carriage" (this is unusual for Le Drian to use that kind of language).

 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,087
Also the work already started, which means it'll end up being a waste of time and money for everyone. It's not just the pettiness of the deal, it's the genuine disregard for something that was already on tracks like it just didn't matter.

And BoJo is the "fifth wheel on the carriage" (this is unusual for Le Drian to use that kind of language).


This one also got me:

 

siteseer

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,048
You claimed that China isn't imperialistic/colonizing and I gave you a examples that they indeed are, that's not selective finger pointing.
fine. it just doesn't pass my personal smell test to determine whether to be afraid or not to the level that some would want others to be for their own agendas.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Freedom fries are so good though
it's funny as fuck in retrospect, but the country lost its mind back than, even more than unusual.
you had cases of people tossing bricks into wine shops that had french wine in them, like not even owned by french people or anything. just being racists against inanimate objects.

Republicans almost put sanctions on them.
 

Redshirt

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
86
User Warned: Hostility
At some point both China and India going to pass the US in GDP and Americans needs to get over it.
Those countries are not going to stay poor forever and we seriously need to get off those right wing fantasies of cutting all countries into small enough pieces until the US is guaranteed forever to be the biggest dog.

And I don't think anything terrible is going to happen when those streams are crossed.

U.S. will be vastly richer than China and India for both of our lifetimes. Your strike me as an idiot.
 

everdom

Member
Oct 29, 2017
526
It's the right call regardless of the blowback. Australia has a MASSIVE Coastline so endurance was always key.

Also guarantees that Australia is one of those countries who could develop nukes VERY quickly (think Japan, Germany) which is useful in a multipolar MAD world.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,212
U.S. will be vastly richer than China and India for both of our lifetimes. Your strike me as an idiot.
Prediction : you're going to run in circles defining rich while ignoring the overall point.
You really come across as one of these jingoistic people whose feelings are easily hurt over dumb metrics, the kind that renames food.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
Not really, when we are far closer to those countries then America is. I'm all for regulation of defence spending and only doing so out of necessity, but we also live in a world where nuclear options and warfare is still occurring. When you have the CCP clearly flexing their muscles of late, I guess many see it is as a sign to bolster their own defence forces.

Also our current submarines are old and shit, with the French ones clearly never going to eventuate. It was definitely a shit show handling by all sides on how they brought about the closure of the contract, but it truly was a waste of taxpayers money.

Also also, it would certainly be interesting seeing what types of forces would actually invade us here in Australia. Obviously dominance on the coastlines would destroy our nation, as major populations reside there, but how rural remote townships are impacted/factored in would be really interesting on a hypothetical note. I live in literal outback no where, with very vast open lands so troops would be useless so I guess air/land vehicle dominance would be key.

... China is your biggest trading partner, right? So you are buying nuclear submarines to protect yourselves from aggression from the country you do the most business with? Which, without US intervention, you would be utterly incapable of defending your densest population centers from in the unlikely event that they DID attack you, submarines or no submarines?

Anglo nations are wildin' in this new era, glad to see it's not just us here in the good ol' US of A that are on some fuck shit.
 

jelly

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
33,841
I can understand France being pissed off by being blindsided if that turns out to be true. Even if the French deal wasn't going smoothly and running into delays, price rises etc. that might have naturally led, assumed to it being scuppered, being blind sided and finding out with the rest of the world is just really shitty.

Boris Johnson/UK are just a desperate hanger on at this point after Brexit and their overinflated self importance in the world, fair play on that 5th wheel comment.
 

tekomandor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
522
Then they could have got French nuclead submarines then as was offered.
They couldn't even if the French were willing to offer them because of domestic political concerns (French naval reactors use LEU and need to be refuelled, necessitating a civil nuclear industry whereas American or UK reactors can be purchased as a contained unit that doesn't need to be refuelled).
 
Dec 4, 2017
3,097
They couldn't even if the French were willing to offer them because of domestic political concerns (French naval reactors use LEU and need to be refuelled, necessitating a civil nuclear industry whereas American or UK reactors can be purchased as a contained unit that doesn't need to be refuelled).
That's bullshit. All submarines undergo ROH (Refueling and OverHaul) at least once in their usable lifespan/service career (they have to, because shit wears the fuck out, and, since they're already cutting the boat open, why not put in a fresh core as well). Only difference is French ones have to be refueled every 10 years instead of 20.
The only way the "reactors last for the lifetime of the submarine", or whatever fake-ass justification, is if they intend to dump them after 20 years of use.
Otherwise it's just omega-tier bullshit peddled by people who are either cretins, or have "specific ulterior motives" to do so.
 

Deleted member 27751

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 30, 2017
3,997
... China is your biggest trading partner, right? So you are buying nuclear submarines to protect yourselves from aggression from the country you do the most business with? Which, without US intervention, you would be utterly incapable of defending your densest population centers from in the unlikely event that they DID attack you, submarines or no submarines?

Anglo nations are wildin' in this new era, glad to see it's not just us here in the good ol' US of A that are on some fuck shit.
While they definitely are still a popular trading partner, China/Australian relationships have soured recently due to both sides being as crazy as the other. We obviously have not helped our situation by jumping on the conspiracy bandwagon and claiming China invented COVID, but we also strained relations through claiming China was behind our most recent cyber attacks.

You then have the CCP doing their shenanigans in general, pushing into the South China Sea as well as Taiwan dealings and India. Alongside that they are also causing massive genocide with Uighurs, which is obviously not going down well with other nations.
 
Sep 5, 2021
3,036
French Military Presence in the Indo-Pacific:

9sc0pige0co71.png


Image comes from an article by CSIS which sourced the above image from the Ministère des Armées
 

tekomandor

Member
Oct 27, 2017
522
That's bullshit. All submarines undergo ROH (Refueling and OverHaul) at least once in their usable lifespan/service career (they have to, because shit wears the fuck out, and, since they're already cutting the boat open, why not put in a fresh core as well). Only difference is French ones have to be refueled every 10 years instead of 20.
The only way the "reactors last for the lifetime of the submarine", or whatever fake-ass justification, is if they intend to dump them after 20 years of use.
Otherwise it's just omega-tier bullshit peddled by people who are either cretins, or have "specific ulterior motives" to do so.
The Virginia class is expected to have a ~33 year reactor lifetime without refuelling, the Astute class 25. You may think it's bullshit, but many public statements have confirmed the "Designed not to need refuelling" thing.
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
India? Probably not.

The CCP? Well, if Tibet, Xinjiang, their Belt and Road neo-colonialism, their desires to invade Taiwan (and subjugate it to the same fate as Hong Kong), or their militarization of the South China Sea is any indication - and there's a reason why the response to the CCP's potential hegemony is more similar to that towards Imperial Japan than towards the Japan of the 1980s.

asia.nikkei.com

Analysis: China's wolf warrior overreach draws comparison to Imperial Japan

Making enemies on all sides goes against ancient diplomatic textbook, scholars warn

The CCP isn't a country, it's called China.
 

i_am_ben

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,012
Also the work already started, which means it'll end up being a waste of time and money for everyone. It's not just the pettiness of the deal, it's the genuine disregard for something that was already on tracks like it just didn't matter.

And BoJo is the "fifth wheel on the carriage" (this is unusual for Le Drian to use that kind of language).



It's hard to underscore just how atrociously bad the French sub deal was going in Australia.

The French may have been surprised by the announcement, but they were certainly aware of how deeply deeply unhappy the Australian government has been for many years.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,131
Sydney
It's hard to underscore just how atrociously bad the French sub deal was going in Australia.

The French may have been surprised by the announcement, but they were certainly aware of how deeply deeply unhappy the Australian government has been for many years.

I think what might of surprised them is the extent to which we are taking our bad choices out on them.
 

i_am_ben

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,012
I think what might of surprised them is the extent to which we are taking our bad choices out on them.

I have no doubt that much of the issues with the sub deal originated with the specifications that Australia wanted. However, the French did sign up and commit to build the subs knowing the vast amount of these challenges.

As much as this whole thing is about china and Australia relations, it's also about Australia (as a customer) choosing not to proceed with a defence contract that simply wasn't working.

Hopefully this leads to better tendering and procurement processes in the future where parties realise that some of these 'too big to cancel' megaprojects are in fact cancelable.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,374
It's hard to underscore just how atrociously bad the French sub deal was going in Australia.

The French may have been surprised by the announcement, but they were certainly aware of how deeply deeply unhappy the Australian government has been for many years.
Yup, if a contract almost doubles in price and has delays all while offering a much more limited option than competing offerings maybe the country offering the deal shouldn't have a temper tantrum when the buyer says that it's cancelling the deal.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,131
Sydney
I have no doubt that much of the issues with the sub deal originated with the specifications that Australia wanted. However, the French did sign up and commit to build the subs knowing the vast amount of these challenges.

As much as this whole thing is about china and Australia relations, it's also about Australia (as a customer) choosing not to proceed with a defence contract that simply wasn't working.

Hopefully this leads to better tendering and procurement processes in the future where parties realise that some of these 'too big to cancel' megaprojects are in fact cancelable.

The tender process will get worse if anything IMO, the govt has just signaled pretty much anything is up for renegotiation and future governments won't have any compulsion over backing out if they want to.

I fully expect a fair number of these projects over the next few decades will just never see the light of day. The sub contract is probably too important to scuttle given it's the US, but then again twenty years is a very long time.
 

ajoshi

Member
Sep 11, 2021
2,033
The CCP isn't a country, it's called China.

A Russian polsci academic actually framed this in an interesting way-- CCP/PRC is a fairly unique classification because the party is so integrated into the foundation and structure of the state as to be virtually indistinguishable and to transcend the definition of a political party. Even by standards of most other single party states (eg even NK is more about power structures of a small elite of certain families than the KWP at large, Cuban PCC has some realistic opposition from both left and right, etc).
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,824
JP
That's bullshit. All submarines undergo ROH (Refueling and OverHaul) at least once in their usable lifespan/service career (they have to, because shit wears the fuck out, and, since they're already cutting the boat open, why not put in a fresh core as well). Only difference is French ones have to be refueled every 10 years instead of 20.
The only way the "reactors last for the lifetime of the submarine", or whatever fake-ass justification, is if they intend to dump them after 20 years of use.
Otherwise it's just omega-tier bullshit peddled by people who are either cretins, or have "specific ulterior motives" to do so.

Even if that is so, an extra decade to prep refueling infra is nothing to scoff at.
 

Senator Toadstool

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,651
A Russian polsci academic actually framed this in an interesting way-- CCP/PRC is a fairly unique classification because the party is so integrated into the foundation and structure of the state as to be virtually indistinguishable and to transcend the definition of a political party. Even by standards of most other single party states (eg even NK is more about power structures of a small elite of certain families than the KWP at large, Cuban PCC has some realistic opposition from both left and right, etc).
And china doesn't have these things?

it's an artificial way around sounding like a jingoistic but ends up even more dumb and jingoistic because it pretends the chinese people are just this monolithic blob captured by some evil monster called the CCP with no agency on their own.

It's also just like the cold war a way to get the word communist in there to pretend this is what the left want.

It's the same kind of thing the US did with the USSR. "Reds, Commies, etc" it pretends that the CCP holds no legitimacy if they go against what the west wants same way we use "regime" too

This isn't to excuse their crimes, but we should refer to it has China's crimes not just the CCP. We don't call them republican or democratic war crimes when the US does war crimes. We call them American war crimes.
 

JahIthBer

Member
Jan 27, 2018
10,382
... China is your biggest trading partner, right? So you are buying nuclear submarines to protect yourselves from aggression from the country you do the most business with? Which, without US intervention, you would be utterly incapable of defending your densest population centers from in the unlikely event that they DID attack you, submarines or no submarines?

Anglo nations are wildin' in this new era, glad to see it's not just us here in the good ol' US of A that are on some fuck shit.
China already banned a lot of Australian imports because we dared to investigate the COVID origin, so the whole "muh trade" argument can kind of go out of the window, now China is disappointed Australia isn't bowing down because it shows their power moves are not as effective as they believe.
 

ajoshi

Member
Sep 11, 2021
2,033
And china doesn't have these things?

it's an artificial way around sounding like a jingoistic but ends up even more dumb and jingoistic because it pretends the chinese people are just this monolithic blob captured by some evil monster called the CCP with no agency on their own.

It's also just like the cold war a way to get the word communist in there to pretend this is what the left want.

It's the same kind of thing the US did with the USSR. "Reds, Commies, etc" it pretends that the CCP holds no legitimacy if they go against what the west wants same way we use "regime" too

This isn't to excuse their crimes, but we should refer to it has China's crimes not just the CCP. We don't call them republican or democratic war crimes when the US does war crimes. We call them American war crimes.

No, China does not have those things, in the same capacity. The oppo parties in PRC are legally defined as existing under CCP leadership and are effectively institutions of the CCP. Cuba's other parties, on other hand, are legitimately separate-- they just can't participate in the state. Ditto with dynastic rule in NK vs China, and not talking just the Kims. Virtually everyone in a leadership position in NK is from a family that was in Kim Il Sung's circle and on. Xi is probably the easiest example of how China differs in this regard: he is the son of a Cultural Revolution exile.

How is conflating PRC the CCP meaningfully jingoistic when CCP legally defines itself as both the eternal steward of the state and the most (only) legitimate manifestation of the will/body politic of the Chinese people, in more or less those words? I mean I personally would rather just call it PRC for clarity and I understand the argument you're getting at re: reactionary dog whistles but seems like we're just getting at ancillary and ultimately meaningless distinctions here to distract from the main point that AUKUS happened because Australia was getting clobbered by PRC's trade 'policies' to the point that most Australians will go with it regardless of how their conservatives frame China.

Just kind a pattern in this topic where we assert big things are happening for simple, dumb reasons to avoid harder arguments ("CCP is a right wing designation to drive up xenophobia [disregarding the CCP functionally defines itself as China writ large], please ignore all other arguments on the topic!" "The sole reason AUKUS and the broader arms race exists is because BAE and Lockheed Martin need more bucks and Muslim bashing got passe!") while ignoring people who are actually providing context for why tens if not hundreds of millions of S/SE/E Asians are okay with their respective counties arming up while China is doing so as well (and not just stinky Anglos and BJP and etc driving sinophobia for chud reasons or whatever).
 
Last edited:

Asator

Member
Oct 27, 2017
905
artificial islands and articial settlements to claim waters its not something that started with china and its not ilegal, england did/does a lot of that as other countries.
It absolutely is illegal. You'd know this if you had read my post, as I included a quote of an international judgement ruling those islands as illegal. See also Hanzo 's post.


The increase of china military is quite logical for the sheer size of china geography, economy and history, and even then its not comparable with the US.
There's a difference between a military built around the concept of self defense and a military build around power projection. China is most definitely not the former.

And as I said, the Chinese navy has more ships than the US navy (although the US navy has a bigger overall tonnage).

Even with all these news you got, it says nothing about war, no country believes or want that, it does not make any economical and political sense since it would disrupt the economy of all the countries involved and would put then in economical crisis, and 2 of the nations you mentioned have nukes that makes a war even less likely, and in the case of japan and AUS there's US bases and alliances and proximity that china is not dumb to start a war with them so US can declare war. You can make a more compeling case for argentina going to war with england again.
Of course no one want to start a war, because a war involving China and the US would mean WWIII and MAD. But that doesn't mean that aren't preparing for the possibility of it, or that that China isn't acting in a bellicose fashion. The countries around China aren't increasing their military for cuddles. They're doing it under the si vis pacem, para bellum mentallity

Also, don't think I haven't noticed you completly ignoring all the examples of acts of aggressions that China has commited.

And its quite telling that you see china as an enemy.
And it's quite telling that you don't, considering that you turn a blind eye to China's acts of aggression.

And for the record, no I don't have a good view of a nation that has massive human rights problems, has an imperialistic and bellicose attitude towards its neighbors and violate international laws for its own benefit. That's why I also have a problem with Russia, and I'm not exactly fond of the US either.

It's almost as if I disliked countries based on their behaviours and not because of the color of their skin 🤔

what is this? we have many many bases abroad for 'defense'.
And I would hardly qualify the US as a paragon of non aggression.

this is some horrible logic. The US is just shifting its focus to the Indo-Pacific. Biden is not pulling a trump, he's actually pushing forward what he feels are the bigger concerns.
Sure, but there was no reason to exclude France from the whole thing considering they have interests in the Pacific. Instead he just chose to fuck them over.

Because both countries are much more populous than the US and eventually will leave the US behind in terms of GDP.
And I donno, maybe the people who believe in American hegemony and wEsTeRn cIvIlIzAtIoN VaLuEs are going to be okay to playing second fiddle to a non white country on the global stage, I am definitely rooting for that future and will do whatever that is in my limited power to make it happen.
When your dislike for America has you rooting for China who's actively commiting genocide, is probably time to reevaluate your position.

I guess I'm a little confused why France is so upset about this. They have nuclear subs too, if you don't want Australia looking elsewhere offer them your best tech.
Australia specifically demanded diesel subs. The subs that Australia ordered were originally nuclear powered submarines that were modified to diesel specifically at Australia's request, and Australia awarded them the contract as a result.

Also, there's a lot more to this whole issue than just the subs. It has a lot more to do with the way the whole thing has been handled.

I have no doubt that much of the issues with the sub deal originated with the specifications that Australia wanted. However, the French did sign up and commit to build the subs knowing the vast amount of these challenges.

As much as this whole thing is about china and Australia relations, it's also about Australia (as a customer) choosing not to proceed with a defence contract that simply wasn't working.

Hopefully this leads to better tendering and procurement processes in the future where parties realise that some of these 'too big to cancel' megaprojects are in fact cancelable.

Yup, if a contract almost doubles in price and has delays all while offering a much more limited option than competing offerings maybe the country offering the deal shouldn't have a temper tantrum when the buyer says that it's cancelling the deal.
I mean, Australia could've asked for nuclear powered version of the Barracuda and pretty much any delay/cost overrun would've evaporated overnight.
I also remember reading somewhere that Australia changed the specs during the development, which played a part in the delays/cost increase, but I'm not sure how true this is.

For what it's worth, Naval Group claims that they "delivered on all its commitments."




And this is just my personal opinion, but I don't think Australia is done with its submarines troubles. The US is well known for having delays and costs overrun on their military programs, and the Virginia-class subs have issues with wearing out early. Add to this the fact that Australia just gave them a carte blanche in terms of costs and I feel like you won't be seeing these subs in a long, long time.
 

Sirpopopop

_ _ _ w _ _ _
Member
Oct 23, 2017
794
U.S. will be vastly richer than China and India for both of our lifetimes. Your strike me as an idiot.

He's not an idiot. He's just virulently anti-American to the point where he feels the need to aggressively defend any group he sees as opposed to America and minimize the concerns of any group he sees as aiding it. The ignore button exists for a reason. Don't let him get under your skin.
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,824
JP
China already banned a lot of Australian imports because we dared to investigate the COVID origin, so the whole "muh trade" argument can kind of go out of the window, now China is disappointed Australia isn't bowing down because it shows their power moves are not as effective as they believe.

To be fair Scomo was sucking Trump's dick at the time.

But China hacked the fuck out of our universities, banks and gov systems too so they can go suck a big one.
 

myth

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jul 15, 2021
283
Has there been questions of whether these islands should still be part of France as there have been for UK and some of its far off islands?
I would think they have some kind of autonomy on choosing whether to become independent as new Caledonia has had a few referendums on independence
 

Arilian

Member
Oct 29, 2020
2,348
Has there been questions of whether these islands should still be part of France as there have been for UK and some of its far off islands?
Iirc, a few or maybe just one of the pacific island, did vote to stay part of France. Correct me if I am wrong.
Mayotte voted to stay a part of France in 1974 and 1976. The rest of the Comoros declared their independence in 1975 and disagree with France's interpretation of the vote: they think the vote should be counted for the whole archipel, while France think it should be Island by Island.

New Caledonia is at the end of the process started with the Matignon Accords in 1988: two votes already happened and both were in favor of staying French (~56 % in favor in 2018, ~53 % in favor in 2020), with a third who will take place the 12th December of 2021.

I searched a bit for other islands, but I didn't find other votes.

The administrative situations of those islands can vastly differs: some are French departments, other French regions, and other have more autonomy from Paris than other (France usually retained the power of justice, police, army with a couple of others areas depending on each island).
 

igordennis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
385
Also the work already started, which means it'll end up being a waste of time and money for everyone. It's not just the pettiness of the deal, it's the genuine disregard for something that was already on tracks like it just didn't matter.

Yeah the human brain once again loses perspective when numbers get too big. Throwing the word billions of dollars is one thing but as someone that was working directly on this project - the gigantic waste of resources generated by writing the project off is absolutely unreal. Physical resources as well as man hours and mental energy from the people trying to bring the project to life - all chucked in the wind. Oh well
 

Window

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,283
I don't think the sink cost borne, both in terms of what's been spent and damaging relations with France, was lost on the Australian government. They probably thought the trade off was worthwhile and well nuclear subs do seem to be a considerable upgrade but the way this all has been framed could have been much better. The way it was announced seem directly provocative to China. Could have been more discreet.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
When your dislike for America has you rooting for China who's actively commiting genocide, is probably time to reevaluate your position.
I don't dislike America, I am an American and I chose to live here, something that is not the easiest thing in the world to do mind you.
Also to say that countries that have 4 times the population of the US will eventually have higher GDP is not "rooting for them", for real they are not 4 times stupider, they are not gonna stay that poor forever, and you shouldn't be rooting for that anyway
I really think Americans should stop panicking about that, the sky is not gonna fall.

The only thing I'm rooting for is peace.
 

Warhawk4Ever

Banned
Jun 23, 2021
2,514
I don't dislike America, I am an American and I chose to live here, something that is not the easiest thing in the world to do mind you.
Also to say that countries that have 4 times the population of the US will eventually have higher GDP is not "rooting for them", for real they are not 4 times stupider, they are not gonna stay that poor forever, and you shouldn't be rooting for that anyway
I really think Americans should stop panicking about that, the sky is not gonna fall.

The only thing I'm rooting for is peace.

Nobody in this thread is panicking about it...calling out a superpower like China who presents a threat to almost every nation around it isn't rooting for the US or whatever. It simply is understanding that while the US is a shitshow and has done a ton of damage, it isn't looking to clamp down on the free press, free exchange of ideas, having re-education camps for its minorities, looking to take over historically independent nations, and more.

I dont think I've ever seen you say one good thing about the US which doesnt mean shit as often there isnt much good to say, but you never miss the opportunity to act as though no other country is as problematic.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Nobody in this thread is panicking about it...calling out a superpower like China who presents a threat to almost every nation around it isn't rooting for the US or whatever. It simply is understanding that while the US is a shitshow and has done a ton of damage, it isn't looking to clamp down on the free press, free exchange of ideas, having re-education camps for its minorities, looking to take over historically independent nations, and more.

I dont think I've ever seen you say one good thing about the US which doesnt mean shit as often there isnt much good to say, but you never miss the opportunity to act as though no other country is as problematic.
I am an American and I generally tend to worry more about what my country is doing, because at least theoretically I can have some minor influence about it.
You really gonna do the "blame America first" thing?
Like come on.
The only thing I have ever argued for is peace. Like I donno, maybe I'm naive, but I would really appreciate if people here actually talked about what I'm saying instead of speculating about how much I secretly hate America. There is such a long and nasty history of accusing any person who ever argued against war of being -

a. hating America
b. a foreign agent trying to destroy America from within

I've lost count at how many times I've been accused of both on this forum.

p.s.
I promise you if I ever meet a person from an another country who is advocating for a global conflict I will tell them how stupid I think that is.