Titanfolk is in the deepest hole that they themselves came together to make and literally are drawing a whole fanfiction eren wins chapter for the ending and they call it based lol.
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Titanfolk is in the deepest hole that they themselves came together to make and literally are drawing a whole fanfiction eren wins chapter for the ending and they call it based lol.
I'd ask why people are this obsessed with an ending where Eren wins, but I'm afraid that the answer is not something I'm prepared to hear.
They really want their favorite genocider to have a "alpha man" ending. God I'm so glad I made the choice to largely disengaged from fandom a while back.
And thus, a few days later, I came upon a tweet that demonstrated very succinctly why some people really wanted Eren to win and exactly what they were projecting onto him and Paradisians
Jesus Christ.
Final Season full OST is out!
Ashes on The Fire - Attack on Titan The Final Season OST - KOHTA YAMAMOTO - YouTube
Ashes on The Fire - Attack on Titan The Final Season OST - KOHTA YAMAMOTO - YouTube
The Fall of Marley and Nowhere to Go are sooo good <3
Really good OST with a wider scope than usual, although the classic iconic Sawano sound is still more memorable to me.
But this fits the Marley Arc better. Yamamoto was a fantastic choice.
Really good OST with a wider scope than usual, although the classic iconic Sawano sound is still more memorable to me.
But this fits the Marley Arc better. Yamamoto was a fantastic choice.
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Don't know if everyone's already seen this, but Final Season part 2 key visual was out yesterday I think
Despite the ending being a massive disappointment (and no, not just because 'Eren should have been based and won!!!!', but because it threw away a massive chunk of the emotional weight from prior chapters in lieu of a weird everyone-lived-happily-ever-after ending), I'm definitely looking forward to seeing these scenes animated. My only concern is that they're going to 'sanitise' the genuinely scary parts of the Rumbling arc, but we'll have to see.
To give you an answer: It's because an ending where Eren wins would have, at the very least, meant something. What we got was an ending that says so many different, wholly contradictory things that it ends up meaning nothing. Is it about love's power over violence? Is it about the cycle of violence? Is it about time-loops and predestination? Is it as simple as "genocide is bad"? All those questions have multiple answers in the ending we were given, and not in a "it's up to interpretation," way but in a literal, textual way.
Eren winning is not the only ending they could have chosen, of course. But, to me, it's the only ending that would have made AoT into the tragedy it should have been, instead of the adventure story we actually got. It would have also allowed Eren, the main character, to have an arc that reaches its natural conclusion instead of having to be retroactively 'justified' at the last minute with timey-whimey nonsense. It would have allowed the story to end in a different way to where it began instead of the utterly dull ending of "Marleyans vs. Eldians, but with better tech this time!" Hell, even a conclusion as simple as "the cycle of violence will always continue, even when there are no 'others' to kill," would have been more interesting than "the cycle of violence will always continue unless you finish the damn job."
And, I mean, the ending we got was still an ending where Eren wins. His friends, the only people he really cared about, pretty much all get out alive with happy, long lives ahead of them. Paradis gets to prosper for another hundred-or-so years, longer than anyone he knew would live for. The plan he put into place comes to fruition almost perfectly because it's revealed that "genocide all of humanity outside the walls," was never his true plan in the first place. He even gets to be buried underneath his favourite childhood tree instead of, say, a random unmarked grave in some war-torn hellhole. He doesn't actually lose, despite literally losing.
Basically an ending where Eren actually finishes The Rumbling is one that is, at the very least, not completely neutral. It would provide a definitive statement to the questions that were raised as soon as the characters stepped into that basement, instead of providing a definitive statement to, well, nothing.
Though "Eren not winning" isn't the only bad thing about the ending. Random shoehorned in "lol funny pervert" joke with Reiner. Ymir actually loving Fritz. That random worm thing turning out to represent nothing. Mikasa simply teleporting back to Paradis. Historia becoming nothing more than a plot device. The Armoured Titan-levels of Plot Armour given to the entire cast in the final fight. And so on.
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Knowing what I know about the manga industry (which is mainly from Bakuman and news articles lol). It definitely feels like the editor stepped in for the last couple of chapters and possibly persuaded Isayama to go another way, but I don't want to get into conspiracy theories like Titanfolk (who have become as embarrassing as r/thelastofus2).
I'm fine with the ending we got. Its bittersweet and I don't like it nor hate it but most importantly, it doesn't ruin the rest of the manga for me because it was still a damn good ride. I still feel the same way with the extra pages but they do make the ending a bit more interesting. I'm gonna have to wait an see how Mappa handles it; with the right pacing, animation and music, it could improve the ending. I recently read the Death Note manga for the first time and I found myself preferring the anime over the manga, specially with the last couple of chapters/ending.
I'm fine with the ending we got. Its bittersweet and I don't like it nor hate it but most importantly, it doesn't ruin the rest of the manga for me because it was still a damn good ride. I still feel the same way with the extra pages but they do make the ending a bit more interesting. I'm gonna have to wait an see how Mappa handles it; with the right pacing, animation and music, it could improve the ending. I recently read the Death Note manga for the first time and I found myself preferring the anime over the manga, specially with the last couple of chapters/ending.
I liked it too. The last two panels especially are really well done
From what I can tell and looking at all the foreshadowing, the thing about the ending that Isayama was waffling over was whether to kill off the rest of the cast with Eren's loss or not. I don't believe that Isayama was ever going to let Eren win but either the cast was going to get killed off in order to make Eren lose or they'd be killed off afterwards by the world or Paradis.
Isayama found a middle ground where eventually the world does bomb Paradis to oblivion 100 years later but at least the cast gets to live out their happy lives.
You're right in that it's a middle ground, but the 'middle ground' is not an area that one should really consider when making a story about genocide.
The ending as it is right now shows that, no matter what happened, Eren was right:
If he didn't do the rumbling? Paradis would be destroyed; Eren was right.
If he did do the rumbling? Paradis would be safe forever; Eren was right.
If he did do the rumbling, but didn't finish it? His friends get to live happy lives just how he wanted; Eren was right.
By not making a definitive statement through the story that Eren, the guy who literally committed genocide, was in fact... wrong, the story inadvertently justifies every aspect of said genocide. It's like if the MCU decided to unironically show certain ways in which "Thanos was right," because it didn't want us to look back at this evil, genocidal person as the evil, genocidal person he was. You just can't do that without raising the question of "wait... so are you justifying genocide here?"
For me an ending where Eren does stop the rumbling, but his friends die in the process, would at least have given Eren's actions a personal consequence beyond "he can't fuck Mikasa." It still would ultimately give some credence to the idea that genocide was justified, but at least it wouldn't almost-completely prove Eren right in the way the ending as it is does.
Personally an ending where Eren finishes the rumbling, kills his friends in the process, and stays alive to watch as Paradis falls to in-fighting and eventual ruin would have been the only real fitting ending for a story like this. Why? Because once you invoke genocide there's only two ways to go:
1) Justify that genocide by showing that literally any aspect of it "solves a problem."
2) Show that genocide solves nothing and hurts everyone
SnK chose the former, and it really suffers for it. It reminds me of when fantasy stories try to tackle the subject of racism but end up inadvertantly justifying racism by showing how "the orcs/robots/augmented people/whatever," actually do have inherent traits that make them different to 'the rest of us'.
"If he did do the rumbling? Paradis would be safe forever; Eren was right."
This is just flat out wrong and runs counter to what the story is saying.
'Shitty people will make the same mistakes again' is almost literally spelled out by the current ending. You know, the same ending that shows Eren achieved jackshit long term. He had no solution. Only selfish desire.
This is just flat out wrong and runs counter to what the story is saying.
'Shitty people will make the same mistakes again' is almost literally spelled out by the current ending. You know, the same ending that shows Eren achieved jackshit long term. He had no solution. Only selfish desire.
Only if your ultimate goal is to save Paradis/Eren's friends no matter what. That might have been Eren's goal, but that's hardly objective.
Says who? We don't know anything about why exactly Eren's hometown was eventually destroyed, and we've been explicitly told about the possibility of internal strife within Paradis itself (Kiyomi).
I'm not a huge fan of the ending as it is myself, but you seem to be overlooking a few things, there...
The other people above have already addressed some of your points, but my read of snk was the opposite here. The only ones believing genocide would solve any kind of problem were the yeagerists, which were universally painted in a negative light by the manga and were pretty much the final antagonists. Meanwhile, in multiple instances we see the terror and destruction of the rumbling, right down to graphic stuff like kids getting brutally squashed. Kiyomi flat out says to Floch their attempt at genocide will solve nothing. If the manga wanted to justify genocide, it did a real shitty job of it.
Sure Paradis was able to survive for a while, but it was a full-on military dictatorship with clear dissidents, and it was eventually destroyed anyway. It's not obvious whether or not things would have been different if Eren completed the rumbling, or if he didn't do it at all.
The story shows that Eren leaving 20% of humanity outside of the walls alive directly leads to Paradis' destruction 100-or-so years later. It also shows a Paradis that is so peaceful that it manages to fully industrialised and modernise over said 100 years, to the point where it rivals what we're currently facing in our modern world after our own near-century of relative peace. There's nothing in either front that suggests to me that Paradis wouldn't have been safe forever if Eren had simply genocided everyone instead of leaving things to a half-measure.
As for Eren's goals, it's clear to me from the final issue that what happened was what Eren wanted all along. It's made clear that Eren's primary motivation for doing what he did was to allow his friends to live peaceful, happy lives. Unless you deliberately create your own head-canon it's heavily implied that his friends... lived peaceful, happy lives. He did so by doing the rumbling, therefore showing that genocide helped achieve Eren's goals. Hell, Armin literally congratulates him on this fact; saying "thank you for becoming a mass murderer for our sakes." The guy's given a proper burial, he's mourned over by Mikasa and fam, he's admired by his enemies, and his ideology is allowed to become the dominant force within Paradis. He's basically like someone who defeats a game's final boss and does all the side-quests but doesn't go for full 100% completion lol
The Jaegerists were painted in a negative light, sure, but the story itself fails to adequately disprove their world-view. It doesn't provide the alternative answer to the "Marley-Eldian' conflict that could be used to show that Eren's actions were not necessary in any way, nor does it show that their particular 'answer' to said conflict wouldn't work. You can show all the graphical panels of kids heads getting crushed and babies being lifted above a sea of screaming people, but if the story itself even hints that "actually maybe this was justified in a way," (i.e. by showing how Eren found success by making sure his friends get to live peaceful lives, and how the non-rumbled 20% of humanity probably destroys Paradis anyway), then all that shocking imagery just goes down the drain in my eyes.
And, I mean, this is a story where Annie gets to live a perfectly happy ending for... reasons. Annie, the girl who had the least remorse for murdering thousands and even seemed to enjoy it got to just... have redemption. Not even have a redemption arc; she just came out of that ice-cube and everyone was like "we cool." Not even Levi, whose squad was literally massacred by Annie, had any grudge to bear... despite the fact that his entire character post-basement revolves around the grudge he has for Zeke. The Jaegerists aren't the first example of the story being at odds with the actions of the characters themselves.
Either way, when you evoke the question of "Is genocide justified," your answers shouldn't be "not obvious." They should be obvious because, well, it's genocide. It's like when crappy stories made by out-of-touch white guys invoke racism before almost always giving some in-universe justification for said racism. Because they're afraid that if they made a story about how "actually racism is just plain bad and can never be justified" it wouldn't be 'deep' enough or something. A writer needs to condemn shit like that in their story or else they'll downplay it at best, and justify it at worst.
As for there being clear dissidents, see above.
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You are confusing "eren achieving his selfish goal" with "this is good for the world/paradis".
Also, Eren is only part of the equation. It's strongly implied that Armin & Co pushed for diplomacy and got a temporary truce. It's only after they die that things go to shit again.
In the end, Paradis get's it's due for becoming the facists. And the characters that tried their hardest to stop the omnicide, they are the ones to live relatively peaceful and long lives, before the bombs drop.
Also, Eren is only part of the equation. It's strongly implied that Armin & Co pushed for diplomacy and got a temporary truce. It's only after they die that things go to shit again.
In the end, Paradis get's it's due for becoming the facists. And the characters that tried their hardest to stop the omnicide, they are the ones to live relatively peaceful and long lives, before the bombs drop.
Wait... what?
If Mikasa & Co. are able to live happy and long lives, then how is it that those dying in the bombing runs at the ending are the 'fascists' that need to get their 'dues'? How is the wanton genocide of an entire island nation, decades removed from the atrocities of a few evil people, 'good for the world/paradis'? Logically and morally that statement is just baffling to me.
Honestly we're getting dangerously close to "actually justifying genocide," here and it's getting a tad weird. I don't really want to continue further with this if I have to keep explaining to people about how "actually, genocide is bad."
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Eh. If Eren were really about just having his friends lead happy, peaceful lives then he probably should've gone with Zeke's plan or the original 50 year plan. He would have achieved the same thing for the most part. Only downside is that only Historia doesn't achieve a long, happy life. But Sasha and Hange wouldn't die in this case so.....he'd just be letting one friend die in 18 years while saving two others versus letting two friends die now but saving one other.
Yeah but then he wouldn't have been able to make his friends into heroes or something idk. I'm not the one who retconned Eren's motivations from "I want to give my people freedom, no matter the cost", to "I want to give my specific group of friends long, peaceful lives."
If you think this statement is remotely reasonable then so are the Yeagerists for saying the outside world deserved the Rumbling.
Genocide is bad.
And so are the Marleyans for wanting to wipe out the Eldian devils and end the Titan menace once-and-for-all.
Funny how muddled things get when a story invokes genocide but fails to adequately condemn it.
No, it doesn't?
I mean... I'm not even sure what else to say, there. Here's what I told you in my post you're replying to: "We don't know anything about why exactly Eren's hometown was eventually destroyed, and we've been explicitly told about the possibility of internal strife within Paradis itself (Kiyomi)."
Well, yes? I don't know what it is you're replying to, there.
Yes? Doesn't mean he was "right" though.
Okay, no. Armin does thank him exactly like you said... right before calling his actions awful.
Armin doesn't agree with Eren's actions at all (and certainly doesn't "congratulate" him)... But he's talking with his best friend for the very last time, he just heard about how Eren's powers "messed with his head", and he's feeling like an accomplice in Eren's plan because he'll end up benefitting from it ultimately. So it's messy.
(I think I used that kind of example before in this thread, but there would be a big difference between my reaction to the news of a crazed, murderous home invader getting shot by the police, and my reaction to the news of a crazed, murderous home invader who is also my brother getting shot by the police. All of a sudden, it's not quite as simple and clear-cut as "that fucker got what he deserved, now let's see what's on Netflix", at least not to me.)
Isayama explained all that in an interview shortly after the last episode was published. He talked about how he could see why some readers misunderstood that scene as Armin condoning genocide and blamed himself for not having been able to make his intent clearer in that scene (when the last volume was released, Armin's line condemning Eren's actions was changed to use a stronger term).
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Perhaps 'getting their due' was the wrong choice of words (English is not my native language).
I'm just saying that when humans make the same shitty mistakes again, they destroy themselves. Which is what happens after the 'peacekeepers' die. We don't how or why it happened or who made the first move. But the cycle of violence continues. The genocide did not achieve anything good for the world. It did not solve anything.
So what Eren (by proxy of Armin, ever the opportunity taker) achieved was only his own, selfish goals regarding the lives of his friends. The story shows that the genocide did not achieve *anything* good for the world at large, by clearly stating 'the cycle continues" with the last few pages.
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The final issue itself doesn't touch on said internal strife, and portrays Mikasa as being able to live a long and happy life on the island despite what she did. If there was this supposed strife on the island then you'd think they wouldn't want the person who killed Eren just chilling their until she's able to die of old age. On the Marleyan side pretty much an entire arc was dedicated to how much Marley wants to just utterly destroy Paradis; both for ideological reasons ('getting rid of those island devils') and logistical reasons (get that not-oil), and that was before they had the very-real justification of "Paradis did the rumbling."
The panel itself also shows a war not of conquest, or of in-fighting, but of complete and utter extermination. One where bombers come in to rain hell on a defenceless enemy, completely destroying their buildings and infrastructure in the process and leaving their lands as a blank-slate to take over. You know, the kind of war that Marley wanted to wage on Paradis once they had the technology to do so. A war that was going to be inevitable before Eren gave them a massive 'justification' in the form of an actual Eldian atrocity (instead of the distant and/or fictionalised ones used to justify Marley's original hatred of Eldians).
Sorry for not justifying the ending by believing a head-canon that has little basis in the actual final issue beyond "yeah, well it might have happened that way."
I was replying to multiple people with that post.
All of this falls back to my main point:
You can say genocide is bad until the cows come home, but if your story presents a situation where genocide is an actual solution to a problem then what you say about genocide doesn't matter. Eren achieving his goals by allowing his friends to live long, happy lives they wouldn't have otherwise been able to live (because the story clearly shows that Paradis is doomed if nothing is done) shows that Eren's genocide was justified in his eyes; it doesn't matter that Armin personally doesn't like the idea because Armin still benefits from it and Eren himself faces no consequences beyond a 'noble sacrifice' type of deal. The story showing that Paradis gets destroyed eventually shows that, unless you're willing to go into some un-justified headcanon (that the bombers were from Paradis and had nothing to do with the outside world), the Jaegerists were right in that the rest-of-the-world would be a problem if left alive.
Your example of a family-member doing a crime isn't the same thing, because in your example you aren't benefitting from said crimes, nor are you paying for benefitting from said crimes. A more apt example would be if your brother was some serial arsonist who burns down orphanages whilst stealing the money inside in order to give to his family. You could say "omg bro that's awful," but if you also say "yeah but I won't let this money you're suddenly giving me go to waste." then you're condoning his actions even if your words say otherwise. There's a reason why people get criminally charged for knowingly accepting the profits of crime, and it's not because "they failed to tell the criminal they're bad." It's because they're knowingly accepting the profits of crime.
It didn't solve everything forever, that is true, but one can easily argue that it didn't do so because Eren didn't 'complete' the genocide, so to say. He intentionally let the loose threads of 20% of the population stay alive, thus setting the stage for a retribution, war, or whatever down the line. As such, it's very easy to view those final pages as implying that genocide should be done completely, and not that "the cycle of violence continues no matter what."
When your story about genocide has to rely on head-canon and flimsy implications to not condone genocide then there's a problem there. The line between "Eren achieved his goals and the Jaegerists were proven right," and "Eren achieved his goals and the Jaegerists were proven wrong," should not be an almost shipper-like interpretation of a single extra panel in the final issue. It should be unilaterally and obviously shown in the story's text, leaving nothing up to interpretation.
Of course this is all moving away from one of my original points, that being how even if the bombers were from Paradis, the implication is that Eren's genocide directly led to peace with the mainland. As such, the Jaegerists were proven right in that genocide was the best 'solution' to the Marley 'problem.' Either way, genocide is used in this story as a solution to the character's problems and that, in itself, is a massive issue.
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You are purposefully leaving out parts of the story. The story repeatedly condemns genocide through the literal words and actions of The Alliance, with some extra quips from Kiyomi and other side characters.
Then there is the result. Which leads to the cycle continueing in the future and solves jack shit. You say that 'it's very easy to view that as Eren should have completed the genocide" but that sounds bizarre to me. You have to ignore the entire Alliance chapters up until this point to view that as remotely logical. Hell, the entire story.
A small group of Eldians and Marleyans who put aside their differences together was able to sustain a temporary peace. Using the opportunity created by a 'grave error' like Armin said.
Eren's genocide contributed to a temporary truce with the mainland, by shifting the power dynamics. That much is true. But the story suggest strongly through the voice of Kiyomi that making the world smaller will not solve anything. And we have seen time and time again in the story how power corrupts. It also shows us panels of facist Paradis with characters not looking happy. And then the final panels show that it will all go to shit, some time after the The Alliance is dead. In context, it's clearly not a solution to anything.
In fact, if you asume that the bombers are from the rest of the world then the most logical assumption based on the rest of the story is..
That they are bombing Paradis *because* of Eren's genocide in the past and fear of a repeat as an underlying condition. Eren after all, made it more than just an ancient story/scapegoat. He made it real and recent. It's unfair towards the innocent Paradisians. But history repeats itself partly because of Eren.
The bottomline here is still that genocide doesn't solve anything.
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We're going in circles here. Yes, the story 'repeatedly condemns genocide', but words mean nothing when the story itself shows how genocide can be a solution, whether partial or not, to the problems present within the story. To me a topic like genocide simply cannot be presented as a "contribution" to anything; it has to be presented as something that solves nothing and helps no-one. Because it's genocide.
I'll put it simply by listing the two possible interpretations of the ending and how both can be used to justify Eren's genocide.
Paradis destroys itself with no contribution from the outside world
This can only happen if Eren's genocide created a lasting peace with the mainland. Therefore, Eren's genocide is justified.
Paradis is destroyed by the outside world
This could have been avoided if Eren had 'finished the job' and wiped out every single person, and as such every single possible source of retaliation, from the outside of world. Therefore, Eren's genocide is justified.
So the genocide is presented as either a solution to the story's primary conflict, or a potential solution only brought down by the fact that it wasn't actually completed. Neither interpretation presents the rumbling as "not a solution to anything," as much as you might want that to be the case.
Of course this is all ignoring the fact that "saving Paradis forever," wasn't even Eren's goal in the end. The final chapter retcons it to be "Making my friends into heroes so they can live long, happy lives." He literally achieves this goal no matter what happens to Paradis afterwards, and as such the story literally presents genocide as a solution to the problems the person enacting said genocide wants to solve. It's a story where the main villain's goals are not only met, but are presented as a positive thing. How you can deny that is beyond me tbh.
So you want to ignore the entire story up until the final chapter(s) to look at it in a vacuüm and say: yeah, genocide not condemned enough?
That just seems bizarre to me. But agree to disagree, then.
So what?
Could you maybe consider the possibility that whatever destroyed Eren's hometown years after Mikasa died of old age in that epilogue wasn't directly related to the main conflict of the series?
I seriously don't follow you.
Personally, the impression (can't really do better than that) I'm getting from those last panels is that nobody took over, actually. Eren's hometown was destroyed and... that was just it. Almost as if civilization as a whole had collapsed, in fact.
But again, we're not given any specific details as to what happened exactly. And no reason I can think of to claim that that definitely was the outside world destroying Paradis, a continuation of the series' main conflict.
If anything, I'd say we have good reasons to believe Armin and the others managed to end said conflict.
The Titans are gone, something that should really help.
Eren's last words to Armin were that he trusted him to find a way to "go past the wall", Armin mentioned "that world beyond the wall they had not seen yet" earlier, he then talks about how Paradis should be interested in their story... With all that, yes, I think that's what happened in the following years. The main conflict of the series was resolved by Armin and the others.
The Yeagerists should be a problem? Yes, but as we're told, Historia was there to help, and we had that scene where Keith tells Surma and the others that a time would come where they would have to rise up and oppose the Yeagerists. There again, when I read that, I don't think to myself "oh, I should probably assume that didn't pan out at all". I think that's precisely what happened. Because... of how stories work?
So when we're then shown Eren's hometown being destroyed years after Mikasa died of old age, I don't think "oh, all that shit earlier just didn't matter after all, the main conflict was never resolved, and I guess the entire story was pointless". I think it was another conflict. Because, as Armin himself pointed out, "conflict will never vanish". I'd say that was also the point Kiyomi tried to make. And Erwin said something similar even earlier, too. Even if the Eldian problem is resolved (and as I explained, I think I have good reasons to believe it was), that doesn't mean everlasting peace. That's just the way human beings are.
Well, gee, I thought I didn't need to actually go and come up with an entire backstory so things would line up, but okay, then... Let's say my big brother felt he had to do some shady stuff because our family desperately needed the money back when I was too young to do anything about it, and things just slowly fell apart for him over the years, up to the point where he just couldn't think clearly, ended up hurting those innocent people and got shot by the police.
He's in the hospital, he won't make it, I get some time with him. Now that it's too late to change anything, will I just say "nuh huh, shouldn't have done any of that, it was wrong" and that's it? Would our history and the fact I benefitted from his (wrong) actions (even if I never asked for it) not factor in at all?
As I said, I'm not a huge fan of the ending myself (and I actually agree with some of your points). I think that scene could have been handled (significantly) better. But I can see what Isayama was trying to do, there: Armin fundamentally disagreed with Eren's actions, but felt he had to try and extend some sympathy to his best friend.
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I mean, yeah. Why wouldn't I take into account the final parts of a story when looking at the story as a whole? It's not me who decided to write an ending incongruous to the story laid out before it.
Like, you wouldn't say to a Game of Thrones fan that it's "bizarre' to factor in the utterly ridiculous final season when looking at what the narrative as a whole wanted to say. Why is it the case here? Is it because you know that there is no real way to interpret the ending without having it justify genocide?
In that case, Eren's genocide solved the main conflict of the series. Which is my primary issue here.
I never said that the entire story was pointless. In fact, I'd have loved an ending that had Eren complete the rumbling only for it to be ultimately pointless. It would have been a tragedy, but when the story itself has panels showing children being crushed into a pulp I think a tragic ending is more fitting than the relatively happy one we actually gott
My issue is that the story justified genocide by presenting it as a solution, or at the very least part of a solution, to the problems presented within the story. You seem to agree that this is the case, so that's something lol.
Essentially it goes beyond "is it Paradis or the outside world that destroyed Paradis at the end." because, no matter the answer to that particular question, the actual message on display is that genocide was presented as a legitimate solution to the Eldian problem. It's not presented as the utterly-pointless, completely evil, and entirely unjustifiable thing it should have been presented as.
I have no qualms with Eren's old friends being hesitant to wanting to kill him, or even having some level of sympathy for him at the end. However that's simply not the case, especially with Armin. He literally thanks Eren for commiting genocide, he makes sure Mikasa goes on her magical journey (seriously, how tf did she get back to Paradis) to "give him a proper burial," and he looks wistfully into the air when reminiscing about the guy. Sure, he goes "genocide is bad, bro," to Eren but that's pretty much all he does. He, and pretty much all of the alliance, treat Eren after his death as if he were a tragic anti-hero instead of a literal genocidal villain, and that's a fairly major problem in my eyes. Both because it just doesn't make much sense, and because it further justifies Eren's genocide by showing that not even his friends give him that much shit for doing it. It would be like if in Breaking Bad all of Walter's family was just like "what a guy," or if Obi-Wan was like "Thank you for bringing balance to the force for our sakes," to Anakin.
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Not by itself, no. It ended the Titans (... well, for quite some time, at the very least?), but that's it.
Armin and the others are the ones who resolved the main conflict of the series (or at the very least, I believe that's what the series implies, as I explained above).
I don't think (and I don't believe we're meant to think) that Eren's plan was the only one, and certainly not the best one either. I think it's pretty clear Armin was hoping for a peaceful resolution to the conflict, and as difficult as that would have been to achieve, I personally don't believe it was necessarily impossible. But Eren went ahead and utterly fucked that up, so Armin and the others now have no choice but to make do with the hand they've been dealt.
I think there should have been a clearer condemnation of Eren's genocide at the very end.
Yes, we've seen Armin comment about how Eren's attack on Liberio basically shattered any chance of a peaceful resolution of the conflict, and yes, Hans flat-out said that genocide was wrong, period. But that was all before Eren revealed his exact plan/intentions.
I appreciate what Isayama did by turning everything on its head and going from "why are the Titans trying to destroy us, what could possibly be their intentions?" in the first two thirds of the story to the main mystery of the last third now being "what the fuck is Eren thinking / trying to do?" I think it's a clever reversal. But it also means the reveal of Eren's intentions came very, very late in the game, and as a result, I can see why readers would wonder "wait, we know what those characters said earlier, but now that they know what Eren was trying to do, do they still think it was wrong, or do they now think he was justified?"
I don't think Armin calling Eren's actions awful in that scene was enough (not even after Isayama changed the wording... that was a step in the right direction, sure, but).
I think the fact he says that right after thanking Eren is a problem. I appreciate what Isayama was trying to do, I agree that, considering their history, it wouldn't make sense for Armin to 100% condemn Eren in those circumstances, but I can absolutely see how confusing that may seem, why people would be too busy going "... wait, did he just thank him? what the fuck?" to even internalize the very next sentence. If that wasn't the right time for that, just find another time, Isayama. Like, say, that scene on the boat, years later, for example. Have Armin say some of things I said above. Make it clear genocide wasn't awful just because it left a bad taste in Armin's mouth, but also because he still thinks there would have been other, better ways. Make it clear that just because Eren thought genocide was the only way, that doesn't mean it actually was.
And I don't like how Reiner and the others all seem to have the same kind of reaction to Eren's parting words. Armin is one thing: Eren and him were basically family. But characters like Reiner and Annie? If exploring their reactions to Eren's true intentions was not practical in terms of pacing (and I can see how it wouldn't be)... well, maybe just don't go there at all? Have Eren explain himself to Mikasa and Armin, and that's it. Don't imply he also talked to the rest of the cast. Seems a bit cold of him to just "ignore" the others? Yeah, well, he just murdered 80% of the world's population. All those people didn't get the chance to chat with him at all. So I think we're past that.
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Yes, Armin and the others may have been the ones to literally sign the peace agreements, but they do so on the back of Eren and his genocide making them heroes. The only real example we see of Armin stopping a conflict is when he goes up to the few remaining Eldians and Marleyans and uses his status as "the guy who killed Eren," to stop them fighting. Outside of that we simply don't see anything, so it's implied that peace was brought about due to those same reasons.
Either way, the fact that we both have our own interpretations of this ending is why the ending should have been more clear-cut in the first place. As it is right now the peace portrayed at the end of the story is one built upon the foundation of genocide, even if it's not literally caused by it. So an ending where the rumbling is finished and Paradis is still not at peace is the only one that could have adequately concluded that "genocide is never the solution to a problem."
Well, not the only one; the rumbling didn't need to kill 80% of humanity, after all. The current ending would have for sure worked a lot better had Eren simply not reached the mainland. But I don't think Isayama would have ever wanted an ending where the rumbling doesn't happen the way it did, so that's purely a hypothetical.
I agree, definitely. Armin and Mikasa still loving the guy so much was something, but having Reiner, Annie, Pieck, etc be so non-chalant towards Eren's actions was just plain baffling. It felt like Isayama didn't really want to add more scenes giving those characters proper conclusions (seriously, Reiner's arc concluding with out-of-nowhere letter-sniffing is hilariously bad), so he just had them be like "what a guy that Eren was..." and moved on. The fact that he completely glossed over Annie's actions, giving her a completely unjustified redemption in the process, makes this more possible to me.
However, and forgive me for repeating myself, simply condemning his actions more wouldn't change the fact that his actions were still effective. Even in a "they helped Eren achieve his personal goals," way (which they did, literally). But I digress; my point's been made blindingly clear on that front lol
Well, I mean, shooting my noisy neighbor in the head would also be "effective". I'm not sure that's really where the issue lies.
…I think you should be able to see the difference between that and genocide. If not… nah, I ain't gonna bother.
I'm not nearly as deeply invested in this series as other people, being that I literally just started and finished the show last month, and then read chapters 115-139 of the manga, but I was happy with the ending, even the version with additional pages. Like, the loop thing was hinted at very heavily throughout the series, so it shouldn't really be surprising. People are pissed about it, saying stuff like, "that means the entire thing was pointless", and yeah... You can't really stop humans from fighting each other.
Looking forward to the reactions from people when part 2 of the anime drops.
By the way, I'm sure it's been discussed to death, but what event, in particular, ended the Titans? Was it Mikasa killing Eren? And if so, why couldn't that have been done without killing 80% of mankind? Or, like... If killing the founding titan rather than consuming its spine is all it takes, Eren could have just instructed his dad to kill the founding titan rather than eating her?
Anyways, the song "Memory Lane" from the final season of the anime makes me cry every time I listen to it:
Looking forward to the reactions from people when part 2 of the anime drops.
By the way, I'm sure it's been discussed to death, but what event, in particular, ended the Titans? Was it Mikasa killing Eren? And if so, why couldn't that have been done without killing 80% of mankind? Or, like... If killing the founding titan rather than consuming its spine is all it takes, Eren could have just instructed his dad to kill the founding titan rather than eating her?
Anyways, the song "Memory Lane" from the final season of the anime makes me cry every time I listen to it:
Mikasa deciding to kill eren, and actually doing, convinced Ymir that she could also "kill" the person she loved.
i think Eren saw 2 birds one stone, he could give paradis a fighting chance, and also force Mikasa to actually do it, because if he didn't actually proved he wasn't goinng to stop, she wouldn't kill him