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Oct 25, 2017
13,127
An old gem from 2016 from the Atlantic. I've always wondered why we assign value and prestige to certain cuisines and others not. This lays out a pretty interesting theory.

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"The shortest answer would be cultural prestige, some notion of an evaluation of another culture's reputation," says Krishnendu Ray, an associate professor of food studies at New York University. In a book published earlier this year, The Ethnic Restaurateur, Ray expands on this idea, sketching the tiers of what he calls a "global hierarchy of taste." This hierarchy, which privileges paninis over tortas, is almost completely shaped by a simple rule: The more capital or military power a nation wields and the richer its emigrants are, the more likely its cuisine will command high menu prices.

Consider the divergent trajectories of Japanese and Chinese cuisines in America. In the past few decades, Japanese cooking has become something to emulate in haute cuisine, with elite Western chefs frequently visiting Japan to observe how chefs there are preparing and plating their work. "Japanese is doing very well in terms of prestige, and that is about … the rise of Japan as a major economic power," Ray says. Meanwhile, he argues, the status of Chinese food remains held back by many Americans' perceptions of the country and its economy. "With China, [Americans] are still filled with this funny disdain, that it is about cheap and crappy stuff, including about cheap and crappy food," he says.
To great effect, he draws on data from Zagat, whose reviewers collect check prices for meals at the restaurants it lists (which tend to range from middlebrow to the lower end of high-end); in New York in 2015, the average check at a Zagat-listed Japanese restaurant for a meal for one (including a glass of wine and a tip) was $68.94, while the average price for the same thing at Zagat-listed Chinese restaurants was $35.76.
In 1985, the earliest year for which Zagat data is available, Japanese food had the sixth-highest average check price in New York. Last year, it ranked first. During that time, Greek and Korean have also seen their lots improve, while Chinese has remained at the lower end of the check-price spectrum, along with Thai, Indian, and Mexican.

The history of Italian cuisine:
The history of Italian food in America, meanwhile, offers a wonderful case study of how a cuisine's status is dictated by immigration patterns. As Ray details in The Ethnic Restaurateur, Italian food was first popularized in the U.S. in the 19th century. Thomas Jefferson had a high opinion of macaroni (and pasta in general), which at the time was not associated with cardboard boxes and bright orange powder, but rather with more refined cuisines, such as France's.
"Italian food would be dislodged," Ray writes in his book, "by the entry of new southern Italian immigrants between 1880 and 1924 who were numerous and mostly poor, hence derided by the taste-making elite." Italians were scorned as "garlic eaters," and by 1955, the status of their country's cuisine had fallen so far that the legendary cookbook author and food columnist James Beard wrote, "My opinion of Italian cookery was not too high." Technically speaking, Beard did, like those in Jefferson's time, compare it to French food, but unlike 19th-century gourmands, he compared it (unfavorably, no less) to the food the French served on trains.

How German used to be the crown "foreign" food:
For quite a while, in fact, "foreign" food was simply shorthand for German food. That's what writers in the Times meant virtually anytime they referred to foreign food between the 1850s, when the paper was founded, and around the 1920s. In the mid- to late 1800s, when relatively poor German immigrants were first arriving in the U.S. en masse, their sauerkraut and sausages were denied incorporation into the American culinary canon. Decades later, only after generations of Germans built wealth and social capital, the hot dog's American-ness does not require elaboration.

As someone who has spent half his life in India, Ray at first was surprised after moving to America to see just how German it was. Before recent waves of Latin American immigration, Germans represented the largest historical influx of newcomers to America, and they deeply shaped the country's culture; until World War II, German was among the most commonly taught languages in schools (much like Spanish is today). But German influences, Ray says, have been "scrubbed out of the script," partly because they are so pervasive as to convince people they don't need documenting, and partly because anti-German sentiment after the two world wars allowed little room for overt praise.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
Member
Oct 24, 2017
34,317
Hmm, I'm sure that prestige and all is a factor but I don't think it'd be the only one. For one thing, I would have thought Japanese cuisine being more expensive is closely correlating with sushi being expensive (because sushi ingredients are expensive in general and its preparation isn't trivial and requires more skill than many other types of food).

I do think prestige or "exoticness" is a factor though. A lot of "ethnic" dishes are expensive when they're supposed to be cheap, street food.

All that said, that chart seems wack to me. The average price of a Japanese meal for one being almost $70 USD? What the actual fuck is this? Even their "lower" end of the chart has average prices above $30... This is bonkers.
 

Morrigan

Spear of the Metal Church
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Oct 24, 2017
34,317

Ernest

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,463
So.Cal.
Mexican cuisine (at the average taco-stand) is easily the best bang for your buck.
But I also feel kinda guilty for paying that little for so much food with so much work put into it, relatively.
 

lake

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,289
I feel like I'm colorblind when I try to interpret that chart. Which cuisine is it that took the huge dive from start to end?

(Think it's Southern.)
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,345
Not sure how this data was collected, but I found Japan to be a country where you can eat pretty damn good food for very little money almost anywhere you look at. I'm sure you can go to a hostess club and spend a thousand dollars in drinks and a burger with fries, but I don't know.
 

Cocolina

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,978
Not sure how this data was collected, but I found Japan to be a country where you can eat pretty damn good food for very little money almost anywhere you look at. I'm sure you can go to a hostess club and spend a thousand dollars in drinks and a burger with fries, but I don't know.

this is specific to New York restaurants
 

tsampikos

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,613
I always thought it was because Japanese cuisine demands fresher healthier ingredients which is more expensive
 
OP
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RastaMentality
Oct 25, 2017
13,127
Not sure how this data was collected, but I found Japan to be a country where you can eat pretty damn good food for very little money almost anywhere you look at. I'm sure you can go to a hostess club and spend a thousand dollars in drinks and a burger with fries, but I don't know.
Japan can get super pricey at the highly rated local restaurants though. Anything above 4/5 on their version of Yelp (Tabelog) was like $30+. Also tonkatsu or wagyu is pretty pricey as well.
 

Septimus Prime

EA
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
8,500
I think it also has to do with the availability of a culture's food. I understand most of the Japanese food available in the States is pretty much only the high-end cuisines like sushi. That's going to drive up the average price.
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,936
It's about $100 after tax and tip for my wife and I to have sushi, an appetizer, and two drinks here in Indianapolis so that sounds about right for NYC.

It is kinda weird to think of Chinese food as "cheap" when you can still see old vestiges from the 80s across the country when Chinese food was tablecloth dining.
 
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RastaMentality
Oct 25, 2017
13,127
I think it also has to do with the availability of a culture's food. I understand most of the Japanese food available in the States is pretty much only the high-end cuisines like sushi. That's going to drive up the average price.
This is definitely true. Ramen and Japanese curry are the only big items in the $10-15 range and even then, there still isn't any sub-$10 stuff like you see in Thai/Chinese/Viet.

It's about $100 after tax and tip for my wife and I to have sushi, an appetizer, and two drinks here in Indianapolis so that sounds about right for NYC.

It is kinda weird to think of Chinese food as "cheap" when you can still see old vestiges from the 80s across the country when Chinese food was tablecloth dining.
Chinese American did a number on Chinese food perceptions. Authentic chinese food (dim sum, peking duck, szechuan) is making a huge splash in the coastal cities though. which should be great for branding.
 

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
Mexican is kinda light grey, Southern is the one that is literally a diagonal lol
oh yeah I missed the "start to end" part

I think it also has to do with the availability of a culture's food. I understand most of the Japanese food available in the States is pretty much only the high-end cuisines like sushi. That's going to drive up the average price.

Hibachi (both carry out and dine-in) spots are pretty popular, especially in the midwest and south
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,730
If y'all don't know about Zagat, the first thing you probably should know about them is that while they tend to list more high end stuff, they also list a fairly large amount of cheap stuff with a good reputation (Taim is a typical example of this in NYC). Zagat doesn't purport to be an accurate sampling of all of the restaurants of a cuisine since they explicitly go out of their way to avoid rating places that aren't high quality. Accordingly, going after the average price tag by saying that it's way too high doesn't really make sense because they know that this isn't the average cost at a restaurant.

As for the point that the article is making, I think the reasons are far more complex than what's presented. For one thing, the price floor for good sushi in NYC is very high (at least $50 per person); for a lot of other cuisines that simply isn't the case.

However, to the author's point, it is odd how much of a premium Japanese food commands for seemingly no reason at all. For example, ramen is easily two to three times more expensive in NYC than it is in Tokyo for an arguably lower quality product. Meanwhile, you can get world-class Northern Chinese-style dumplings in Queens for next to nothing. I don't really buy that this simply comes down to the status of the diaspora, however.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
I think it also has to do with the availability of a culture's food. I understand most of the Japanese food available in the States is pretty much only the high-end cuisines like sushi. That's going to drive up the average price.
You can find good places that are priced reasonably, but it's very inconsistent between restaurants due to the aforementioned perception of prestige.
 

Doggg

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Member
Nov 17, 2017
14,442
Very interesting article. I'm surprised where Thai food is on that average price chart.
 
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RastaMentality
Oct 25, 2017
13,127
Very interesting article. I'm surprised where Thai food is on that graph.
At the bottom. But it's kinda disingenuous since Thai restaurants didn't blow up until the 2010s (when the government started training chefs and sending them across the world). And there still aren't fine dining thai restaurants yet (maybe in NYC).

Most Thai is priced $10-15 everywhere. That price will probably increase over time.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,176
All that said, that chart seems wack to me. The average price of a Japanese meal for one being almost $70 USD? What the actual fuck is this? Even their "lower" end of the chart has average prices above $30... This is bonkers.

I'd assume omakase prices contributed heavily to the high average. Those prix fixe meals go anywhere from $70 to $200+ a head.
 

hibikase

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,820
No shit Sherlock. Sushi is inherently expensive due to its preparation and freshness requirements. I would have been surprised if it were NOT at the top of the chart.
 

wandering

flâneur
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
2,136
That people here are talking about the supposed loftiness of sushi-making is testament to exactly the kind of cultural prestige the article is talking about.
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,143
Washington
At the bottom. But it's kinda disingenuous since Thai restaurants didn't blow up until the 2010s (when the government started training chefs and sending them across the world). And there still aren't fine dining thai restaurants yet (maybe in NYC).

Most Thai is priced $10-15 everywhere. That price will probably increase over time.

I hope not. I love thai. Though theone good Thai place I found here was sold to a new owner who wanted to do a different style which I'm not enamored of. Why buy a restaurant if you are just going to change it and lose cleintele who liked the old stuff.
 

thewienke

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,936
Chinese American did a number on Chinese food perceptions. Authentic chinese food (dim sum, peking duck, szechuan) is making a huge splash in the coastal cities though. which should be great for branding.

It's kinda depressing to me because I love good American Chinese food. The explosion of cheap Chinese buffets in the 90s makes it seem like people are just conditioned to like the cheap "buffet quality" stuff that you can get anywhere and all tastes like it's from the same one supplier.

Those last few remaining tablecloth American Chinese restaurants are the ones still serving the good stuff but they are kinda rare. Feels like I'll be stuck with cheap strip mall Chinese food in the future.
 

Deleted member 4367

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Oct 25, 2017
12,226
Ramen can get crazy expensive in NYC as well.
Crazy expensive like more than $20?

I was there a few years ago and at the time what seemed like the best reviewed ramen in Manhattan (in hells kitchen) were still like $15 bowls.

Still, sushi is so expensive that it obviously overcomes what I think is a pretty reasonable for category for the price in ramen.
 

Horp

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,709
Well I'm happy. Indian, Thai and Mexican is the best food - if it stays cheap thats awesome for me.
 

HStallion

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
Crazy expensive like more than $20?

I was there a few years ago and at the time what seemed like the best reviewed ramen in Manhattan (in hells kitchen) were still like $15 bowls.

Still, sushi is so expensive that it obviously overcomes what I think is a pretty reasonable for category for the price in ramen.

15 dollar a bowl is crazy expensive by my standards.
 

Kino

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,319
Crazy expensive like more than $20?

I was there a few years ago and at the time what seemed like the best reviewed ramen in Manhattan (in hells kitchen) were still like $15 bowls.

Still, sushi is so expensive that it obviously overcomes what I think is a pretty reasonable for category for the price in ramen.
15 dollars for a bowl of ramen IS very expensive. Especially considering a very good bowl of ramen in Tokyo can be 8-10 usd.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,092
Can someone explain to me what exactly American food is and why it's in a different category than Southern (which I'm guessing refers to American food from the southern states)? Other countries also have regional differences in their food. India for example has a rich and very diverse regional cuisines, and yet I don't see Punjab or Bengal being their own food category.
 
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RastaMentality
Oct 25, 2017
13,127
Can someone explain to me what exactly American food is and why it's in a different category than Southern (which I'm guessing refers to American food from the southern states)? Other countries also have regional differences in their food. India for example has a rich and very diverse regional cuisines, and yet I don't see Punjab or Bengal being their own food category.
American food is usually steak, barbecues, fries, other stuff. Southern food is usually soul food (fried chicken/chicken & waffles/greens) and creole food (crawfish etoufee/gumbo/shrimp and grits) combined.

Southern is probably way easier to upscale and would be a lot more appealing to foreigners who think American fast food is lame but it's never caught on as much globally.
 

Heshinsi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,092
American food is usually steak, barbecues, fries, other stuff. Southern food is usually soul food (fried chicken/chicken & waffles/greens) and creole food (crawfish etoufee/gumbo/shrimp and grits) combined.

Southern is probably way easier to upscale and would be a lot more appealing to foreigners who think American fast food is lame but it's never caught on as much globally.

Thanks for the explanation. It was a bit confusing as to why only American cuisine was being organised into different groupings like that. Makes sense if it was due to marketing.
 

bagandscalpel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
701
Those last few remaining tablecloth American Chinese restaurants are the ones still serving the good stuff but they are kinda rare. Feels like I'll be stuck with cheap strip mall Chinese food in the future.
To paraphrase a chef from mainland China that my family knows: it's because nobody is immigrating to America to cook traditional food anymore. Heck, even the eating trends in China aren't the same as before. Chasing latest trends, nobody is making stuff like xianggan rousi these days.
 

el jacko

Member
Dec 12, 2017
945
Can someone explain to me what exactly American food is and why it's in a different category than Southern (which I'm guessing refers to American food from the southern states)? Other countries also have regional differences in their food. India for example has a rich and very diverse regional cuisines, and yet I don't see Punjab or Bengal being their own food category.
In America, distinctions between regional cuisines of other countries/cultures get compressed and amalgamated, which is probably true for American/southern food in other countries, where they're all compressed into a single menu of "steak" or "diner" food, which they'd call "American".

In Japan, at the very least, there's no "Japanese" food because ramen, tonkatsu, sushi, and kaiseki (course) meals are all separate genres of food, and are further distinguished by region. My Chinese friends complain about Chinese food in America because it's always highly based on one region (Guangdong, I think?) when they want to eat different regional styles of food. I've never been to India or Mexico, but I imagine major cities differentiate regional specialities into different genres the same way we're splitting "American" and "Southern" - but don't split different genres the way we do with different styles of American food.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Hmm, I'm sure that prestige and all is a factor but I don't think it'd be the only one. For one thing, I would have thought Japanese cuisine being more expensive is closely correlating with sushi being expensive (because sushi ingredients are expensive in general and its preparation isn't trivial and requires more skill than many other types of food).

And a lot more time! When my SO and I used to make sushi, it would take hours.

I do think prestige or "exoticness" is a factor though. A lot of "ethnic" dishes are expensive when they're supposed to be cheap, street food.

All that said, that chart seems wack to me. The average price of a Japanese meal for one being almost $70 USD? What the actual fuck is this? Even their "lower" end of the chart has average prices above $30... This is bonkers.

I can believe that, but only because arithmetic average is a terrible metric to use to calculate the price of a "typical" meal. E.g. four restaurants with $300, $30, $20 and $10 meals average to $90. They should have used the median instead to prevent expensive outliers from wildly skewing the data.
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
What is American cuisine? Hamburgers and terrible cheese???

Japanese food is great, but France good is more glamorous...

Italian food if the best tho!!
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
In America, distinctions between regional cuisines of other countries/cultures get compressed and amalgamated, which is probably true for American/southern food in other countries, where they're all compressed into a single menu of "steak" or "diner" food, which they'd call "American".

Spaniard here, this is mostly true. There's a world of difference between Madrilenian cuisine compared to Basque, to Valencian, to Galician, to Asturian, etc. so even in Madrid you get a wide variety of "regional" Spanish-style restaurants. The closest thing we have to "American" restaurants here would be Tex-Mex and burguers, both of which are considered fast food and rather low in the "prestige" bar. Tex-Mex aren't terribly popular, but burguers are, simply because they're cheap and convenient in a hurry.