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FriskyCanuck

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,063
Toronto, Canada
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/brit...-religious-discrimination-complaint-1.5172488
A B.C. nurse who lost his job when he refused to attend a 12-step program for addiction will get a chance to argue he was discriminated against as an atheist.

Byron Wood contends Alcoholics Anonymous's emphasis on placing your life in the hands of a higher power simply won't work for someone who doesn't hold any religious beliefs.

That's an argument worth considering, according to the B.C. Human Rights Tribunal. On Wednesday, it denied Vancouver Coastal Health's application to dismiss Wood's complaint alleging discrimination on the basis of religion.
"The tribunal has not [previously] considered whether the 12‐step program utilized by Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous … may discriminate against persons with substance abuse disorders who are atheists," tribunal member Walter Rilkoff wrote in Wednesday's decision.

"In my view, there is a public interest in addressing that issue."

If Wood was indeed a victim of discrimination, the tribunal will also have to decide what steps his employer would need to take to accommodate his lack of belief.

In the same decision, the tribunal dismissed Wood's complaint that he was discriminated against on the basis of a mental disability — specifically, addiction — as well as parallel complaints against the B.C. Nurses' Union.
Wood was diagnosed with substance use disorder after a psychotic break landed him in the psychiatric ward at Vancouver General Hospital in the fall of 2013. His professional college was informed, along with his union and Vancouver Coastal Health, his employer at the time.

He was referred to a doctor specializing in addictions, who created a plan that Wood would need to follow if he wanted to return to work. AA was a mandatory component of that plan.

Wood suggested alternatives to the 12-step program, including secular support groups and counselling, but his doctor rejected them, according to emails provided to CBC.

He also asked for a referral to a new doctor, but his union informed him that it only uses addictions specialists who follow the 12-step model, the emails show.
In its submissions to the tribunal, Vancouver Coastal Health argued the treatment plan designed for Wood was reasonable and supported by medical experts.

But Rilkoff said expert opinions weren't enough.

"Relying on medical opinions is not a sufficient defence if the medical recommendations are themselves discriminatory ... [Vancouver Coastal Health] cannot avoid liability if it relies on discriminatory advice," the decision says.
Is AA really the most popular option when it comes to substance abuse recovery programs? I would think that in an increasingly secular society, more alternatives would have popped up.
 

hjort

Member
Nov 9, 2017
4,096
Yeah, forced AA is kinda fucked up for an atheist. Can't believe there are no non-faith based alternatives.
There are secular alternatives, but they tend to get overlooked. I saw a caller talk about this on Talk Heathen or The Atheist Experience just last week, I think. I don't remember the names of the alternatives, though.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,096
Sydney
I always thought AA was like, a psychiatric program for addiction and substance abuse. I didn't realise it was this spiritual.
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,261
I'm guessing people have never seen or heard an AA meeting even in a movie or TV show? They talk about God giving you the power to overcome your addictions like every other line. I know my father went to AA for a while and the first thing they gave him was a bible.
 

Deleted member 20852

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
864
My father stopped drinking when I was around eight by starting to go to AA meetings. They had some family meetings as well and I remember that they had a very Christian messaging. My father is not religious at all, I think just having that community of people around him was what helped him the most.

That said, it is obviously an incredibly stupid idea to force AA on anybody. It is essentially forcing someone to practice a religion and an obvious violation of freedom of religion. While I have first hand experience of AA working, if you are going to force somebody to go there, religion should never be involved.
 

The Real Abed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,720
Pennsylvania
You know I was wondering about this myself. Those AA meetings are always so religion based. Do non-religious versions even exist?

I'm guessing people have never seen or heard an AA meeting even in a movie or TV show? They talk about God giving you the power to overcome your addictions like every other line. I know my father went to AA for a while and the first thing they gave him was a bible.
Exactly. That's how I know AA is fully religion-centric. I wouldn't want to go to one.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,096
Sydney
I'm guessing people have never seen or heard an AA meeting even in a movie or TV show? They talk about God giving you the power to overcome your addictions like every other line. I know my father went to AA for a while and the first thing they gave him was a bible.

I've seen it depicted in movies and TV shows, but overwhelmingly it depicts;

1) Characters dealing with alcoholism sitting in a circle of other AA members talking about their alcoholism and things they've done
2) People making amends with people in their lives because they're in AA
 

Korigama

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,482
I've known that AA is a religious thing since South Park brought it up over a decade ago.
 

mentallyinept

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,403
The 12 steps for those not informed:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become
unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to
sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we
understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature
of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with
God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and
the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to
carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our
affairs.
 

Westbahnhof

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
10,104
Austria
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole AA system kinda inefficient? I recall something about the success rates being kinda shit

The 12 steps for those not informed:


1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become

unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to

sanity.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we

understood Him.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature

of our wrongs.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make

amends to them all.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do

so would injure them or others.

10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly

admitted it.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with

God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and

the power to carry that out.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to

carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our

affairs.

It's frankly insane that any medical professional would look at this and go "sounds great, even for Atheists"
 

Sadire

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,343
So he suggested alternatives and they weren't enough?
Could you not achieve a similar 'accepted' secular version by having an accountability coach, and thus lose the religious sprinkling on top?
 

HStallion

Member
Oct 25, 2017
62,261
I've seen it depicted in movies and TV shows, but overwhelmingly it depicts;

1) Characters dealing with alcoholism sitting in a circle of other AA members talking about their alcoholism and things they've done
2) People making amends with people in their lives because they're in AA

I guess I've watched different movies as usually its got a guy wandering around with a bible talking about god helping you overcome. Yeah they show the support side of it as well but its' fairly overt if you're looking for the right stuff.
 

Deleted member 28461

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,830
I sat in quite a few AA meetings growing up. Religion is everything. I'm not saying it can't help people, but if you are not a religious person it's going to be a massive hurdle. Hell, I never sat in a meeting that wasn't being held in a church.
 

Airbar

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,564
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole AA system kinda inefficient? I recall something about the success rates being kinda shit
Not per se. They aren't bad per se. It's just pretty antiquated and there are far better and more scientific programs that are not linked to religion like at all.
 

JAGMASK

Member
Jan 3, 2018
422
I remember hearing about AA's religious bent in Penn and Teller's bullshit. It seems so weird to have no alternative.
 

Duxxy3

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,686
USA
The 12 steps for those not informed:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become
unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to
sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we
understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature
of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with
God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and
the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to
carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our
affairs.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become
unmanageable.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.

Not much left if you cut out the religious parts. But still doable I guess.
 

Noodle

Banned
Aug 22, 2018
3,427
I've seen it depicted in movies and TV shows, but overwhelmingly it depicts;

1) Characters dealing with alcoholism sitting in a circle of other AA members talking about their alcoholism and things they've done
2) People making amends with people in their lives because they're in AA

Same, until I came across previous stories. The reality is absolutely disgusting.

The 12 steps can be summed up as:

1. Put yourself at psychological rock bottom until you're at your most vulnerable.
2. Replace your current addiction with a rabid devotion to a Christian god.
 

fleet

Member
Jan 2, 2019
644
yeah as a psych i'm super critical of AA. it works for some people, i guess. but in general the 12 steps are kinda wack. examples:

step 1: "we are powerless over alcohol"
what kinda message are we teaching if we are teaching people that they are powerless over alcohol? that their behaviours and actions are redundant because they are never in control?

step 6 and seven: "we are ready for god to remove all these defects of character"/"ask him to remove our shortcomings"
i.e., you're a bad bad terrible person with a bad character if you have a substance abuse disorder? yeah i bet that motivates a lot of people to change

the other steps are definitely christian-oriented. most of them mention god. good if you're religious but i still don't think AA is evidence-based practice, at all.
 

qaopjlll

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,788
Wow, I had no idea that AA was a machine for religious propaganda. I see I'm not the only one.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,096
Sydney
The 12 steps for those not informed:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become
unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to
sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we
understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature
of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make
amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do
so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly
admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with
God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and
the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to
carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our
affairs.

That's pretty eye opening, a good half of these are just spiritual/religious.

Almost impossible for an atheist or agnostic to complete without massively lying and cutting corners and in that case what's the point.
 

Rampage

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,134
Metro Detriot
40 years ago, my mom lost her license due to drunk driving. She could not get it back without going to AA. Recently I helped her, with a lawyer to get it back. Court ordered her to see a "specialist" for an opinion.

I went with my mom to the meeting. That specialist was outwardly religious. As she went on and on how God was the way, it came up I was an atheist. The meeting stopped being about my mom drinking, and the specialist trying to convert me. Told me how horrible, sin filled, my life must be for not following God.

I had words with the lawyer after the meeting. That whole part of "needing" the specilist got dropped after pointing out the courts were violating me and my mother's religious beliefs.
 

Illusion

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,407
Yep. I knew about this.

Kinda fucked, especially since they use that power over you in order to convert you.
 

lazygecko

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,628
That's super weird, I had no idea. I thought it was just a support group.

It makes perfect sense when you think about how common it is for cults and extremist organizations to target socially/emotionally vulnerable people as an easy means to bolster their recruitment. American christianity has operated on the same principles by leveraging organizations like AA.
 

Finale Fireworker

Love each other or die trying.
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,710
United States
What about the serenity prayer?

God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change,
the courage to change the things we can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

I thought this referred to how it felt to play Dark Souls.

Joking aside, I always knew there were religious accompaniments to most sobriety programs but I never realized it was a core tenet. It makes sense now that I know and seems obvious in retrospect.
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
As an agnostic that has had success at a meditation/zen style AA with my "higher power" being AA itself, it definitely is bullshit that AA is required in court. Therapy and the Sinclair Method should be on the table. Only large cities like Austin, Texas have Atheist, Agnostic, LGBTQ+, and Zen style meetings.

AA definitely has a spiritual bias. While the founder of AA suggested several times to non-religious people to make AA itself their higher power, the literature is riddled with God. A lot of groups, especially outside of major cities, take the liberty of making it a Christian program.


yeah as a psych i'm super critical of AA. it works for some people, i guess. but in general the 12 steps are kinda wack. examples:

step 1: "we are powerless over alcohol"
what kinda message are we teaching if we are teaching people that they are powerless over alcohol? that their behaviours and actions are redundant because they are never in control?

Step 1 doesn't scapegoat responsibility. It recognizes that for some people, taking the first few sips causes a virtually uncontrollable impulse response to binge drink alcohol regardless of how much planning there was to stick to 1-2 drinks. That's the powerlessness. Step 1 is surrendering that an alcoholic cannot control drinking after the first drink. A lot of alcoholics spend dozens if not hundreds of nights thinking this time is different. This is the "restore to sanity" of step 2-3.

step 6 and seven: "we are ready for god to remove all these defects of character"/"ask him to remove our shortcomings"
i.e., you're a bad bad terrible person with a bad character if you have a substance abuse disorder? yeah i bet that motivates a lot of people to change

Steps 4-6 are about itemizing resentments, harm to others, fears, etc and then in step 9-10 making amends to those that you harmed so long as that amend doesn't harm others. Basically it removes the baggage of resentments that often causes struggling alcoholics to pick up that 1st drink.

One of the reasons why I think AA sometimes is more effective than therapy is because when alcoholics share the insane shit they've done, it breaks the ice for newcomers to share. When I went to therapy, I held everything back because it's insane especially to a non-alcoholic.
 

OmniOne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,063
I had an ex many many years ago that had to do forced AA. It was super religious and completely undercut the point of the program. It was all about GOD and stuff.
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
AA is a cult basically.

A lot of groups are, but that's not the default AA literature. The default literature were admittedly suggestions by an eccentric businessman and some of the first members including a doctor. Bill W does reference God a lot but ultimately says that if you aren't religious use AA itself as your higher power.

But because a lot of areas don't have good meetings for all ways of thought and because the Sinclair method is very effective treatment to stop constant relapses I don't think courts should require AA.
 

fleet

Member
Jan 2, 2019
644
As an agnostic that has had success at a meditation/zen style AA with my "higher power" being AA itself, it definitely is bullshit that AA is required in court. Therapy and the Sinclair Method should be on the table. Only large cities like Austin, Texas have Atheist, Agnostic, LGBTQ+, and Zen style meetings.

AA definitely has a spiritual bias. While the founder of AA suggested several times to non-religious people to make AA itself their higher power, the literature is riddled with God. A lot of groups, especially outside of major cities, take the liberty of making it a Christian program.




Step 1 doesn't scapegoat responsibility. It recognizes that for some people, taking the first few sips causes a virtually uncontrollable impulse response to binge drink alcohol regardless of how much planning there was to stick to 1-2 drinks. That's the powerlessness. Step 1 is surrendering that an alcoholic cannot control drinking after the first drink. A lot of alcoholics spend dozens if not hundreds of nights thinking this time is different. This is the "restore to sanity" of step 2-3.



Steps 4-6 are about itemizing resentments, harm to others, fears, etc and then in step 9-10 making amends to those that you harmed so long as that amend doesn't harm others. Basically it removes the baggage of resentments that often causes struggling alcoholics to pick up that 1st drink.

One of the reasons why I think AA sometimes is more effective than therapy is because when alcoholics share the insane shit they've done, it breaks the ice for newcomers to share. When I went to therapy, I held everything back because it's insane especially to a non-alcoholic.

i actually agree with everything you say here. you make great points. it's just that, literally, as a psych who has been present in AA meetings, as someone who has worked with SAD often... this isn't how i've seen those steps interpreted by the group facilitators. group therapy with equal parts self acceptance and motivation to change? cool. people getting hit with catholic guilt and non evidence-based therapeutic techniques as a mandatory treatment process? fucked up.
 

hiryu64

Member
Oct 27, 2017
603
Good on em. Nobody should be forced to accept any sort of "higher power" as a prerequisite for recovery. This notion is fairly prevalent in mental health circles -- I actually had to stop seeing a longtime therapist because of this -- but fortunately that seems to be changing.
 

Elynn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,030
Brittany, France
Wow, had no idea AA was religious in any way. Seems like it's been under scrutiny for this even here where you'll find more non-religious people than religious ones. It's fucked.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole AA system kinda inefficient? I recall something about the success rates being kinda shit



It's frankly insane that any medical professional would look at this and go "sounds great, even for Atheists"
While it's made difficult by the fact that AA is decentralized and you can't track results from anonymous members, what slresearch there is suggests AA's efficacy is generally low. Probably because it really doesn't seem geared towards a spectrum of alcoholism and can't necessarily treat stuff like mental health issues that relate to substance abuse.

It's basically group therapy, and there's lots of stuff that helps and lots of stuff it can't.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
I've known that AA is a religious thing since South Park brought it up over a decade ago.

Which episode is it? I'm in the mood for south park.

I hate AA, and have been forced to go to 100s. There are alternatives, but they are very spread out in most parts of the country, and they are still just a support group, not a treatment. I dont have any problem with AA, my problem is it being forced on people in court.

Instead, every week I have to mock their religion by standing up, holding hands, and saying the Lords's Prayer. I feel like that should be done by people who believe that religion.
 

Darksol

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,704
Japan
I mean it's literally not scientific in the least and people who don't attend are just as likely to get better as those who do. Adding god (or rock) and all the self pitying bullshit about having no control is the shit cherry on top.
 

Deleted member 12379

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,999
I'm an athiest who in a past life attended hundreds of AA/NA meetings in both Boston/SF. Obviously both very liberal areas and I don't imagine AA in those cities resembles AA somewhere like Alabama. AA was definitely a larger program that required more of a "by the book" atmosphere just due to sheer size of the group to keep things organized. They kept "God" in the text/steps but explained that God doesn't have to mean GOD but could mean "Group of Drunks/Druggies" as well and kind of sidestepped the religious aspect of it. Obviously this is going to vary from meeting to meeting even within the same state. NA was normally a much smaller more intimate group and the specific group I joined explicitly told us not to push any religion on anyone. It felt like a relaxed group therapy where we could talk about our fuckups with minimal judgement. In NA "God" was left out of the serenity prayer at the end.

I've also been through IOP programs set up by hospitals with clinicians present. Same kind of group therapy with more directed sessions on DBT/CBT/etc. Those were great but also cost a lot of money. Theres also that feeling of holding back when talking to a professional vs talking to peers. It's a good dynamic but not 100% the same.

All that being said I absolutely support this guy's discrimination suit and I don't believe that courts should be forcing that on people.
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,648
I think they are right and I support them, but the "higher power" can also be yourself right? It could be your own willpower, it could be a chair.
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
i actually agree with everything you say here. you make great points. it's just that, literally, as a psych who has been present in AA meetings, as someone who has worked with SAD often... this isn't how i've seen those steps interpreted by the group facilitators. group therapy with equal parts self acceptance and motivation to change? cool. people getting hit with catholic guilt and non evidence-based therapeutic techniques as a mandatory treatment process? fucked up.

Yeah, I get it. The first AA meeting I went to had cult like qualities. Then I started shopping around and found a good group and a fantastic group. But I'd say I don't jive with the majority of AA groups.

If anyone is curious, this book outlines what I think is a good way to sponsor or be sponsored. It's pretty rational with not pairing an atheist with a very religious person for example.