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Atheist/Agnostic-Era: How Did You Come to Terms?
- Thread starter legacyzero
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My whole family pretty much is religious. We never went to church though. Probably around middle school I started to question things. Didn't believe by the time I started high school. Scientific data, the state of the world, the hypocrisy of the text, inconsistensies, and countless other issues led me think that it just couldn't be possible.
Is it my belief that when we die is just the end, consciousness stop and is just a void for eternity, which of course, is really scary to me. I comfort myself knowing that what i think or what anybody thinks doesnt really matter, since we just can't really know.
The truth is--we don't know anything.
Life becomes easier when you accept this. I don't believe in the god most people speak of, but I think it's possible that something is out there pulling strings. Saying there is an afterlife is silly, and saying there isn't one is as equally silly because you don't know shit (don't take that as an insult, it applies to me too). Have you died? Accept that and move on.
You can bring up science, but what makes you think we actually know what's going on? Our science may be totally wrong for all we know. No one can prove or disprove any of it and we probably will never reach that point.
I hate to go "both sides" because it annoys me when that is applied to politics, but it describes me when it comes to believers vs. non-believers.
Life becomes easier when you accept this. I don't believe in the god most people speak of, but I think it's possible that something is out there pulling strings. Saying there is an afterlife is silly, and saying there isn't one is as equally silly because you don't know shit (don't take that as an insult, it applies to me too). Have you died? Accept that and move on.
You can bring up science, but what makes you think we actually know what's going on? Our science may be totally wrong for all we know. No one can prove or disprove any of it and we probably will never reach that point.
I hate to go "both sides" because it annoys me when that is applied to politics, but it describes me when it comes to believers vs. non-believers.
Not only that, but it's baffling that it doesn't strike them as odd that their 'right' one is typically the one they happened to be born into. That sure is lucky, huh?
Nope, not QUITE right.
Agnostic: "a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God."
I'm definitely an agnostic.
Raised HARDCORE Roman Catholic [mom's side], but also raised HARDCORE scientific [dad's side].
They're good parents so by the time I was 12 I was already seeing that faith was like swiss cheese [read: holes].
Took me until about 15 to give up on rationalizing all the holes I was finding, and realized it was unfortunately all bullshit.
I still took a LOT of good life lessons with me from my Catholic upbringing though - mostly that God is good, God loves everyone, love your neighbour, love your enemy, and always do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
When you carry that bolded part with you through your life, why would it even matter if God is real or not?
You've been a good human, you've done your job.
What?
[Then you weren't religious son, in a Christian family, you're at church a minimum of once a week or else you're literally not even considered religious]
Yup, just one of the many, many holes one discovers growing up in the insitution of Catholocism...
It became quite clear the institution of church and faith was nothing more than a locus of control, built of out a likely adulterated story that grew into mythic levels.
Shame more people haven't woken up to this insultingly obvious fact, but I suppose it goes to show just how fucking scary mortality is hey?
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I'm a Christian who also has a degree in biochemistry. I've been fascinated by the study of origins and I think there are probably a few people in this thread who share that interest. For those select people, I highly recommend this book. It is in its second printing now and it includes Meyer's response to the critics from the original publication.
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I wanted to address these two posts together because I think they touch on a similar issue. RobNBanks seems hopeful that he/she will go to heaven, but he/she doesn't seem overly interested in spending time with God. Splinter seems fairly indifferent to the concept of heaven, but he/she hopes God might overlook that apathy and invite him/her to spend eternity in his presence.
Here's my question to both people: Do you want to be a much-loved child in God's family?
Because I think he has made his offer of forgiveness and love fairly clear in the person of Jesus, but he's not going to make you do something you're not interesting in. If you would prefer to be left alone, you're welcome to make that choice, but it seems weird to blame God for respecting your decision.
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I wanted to address these two posts together because I think they touch on a similar issue. RobNBanks seems hopeful that he/she will go to heaven, but he/she doesn't seem overly interested in spending time with God. Splinter seems fairly indifferent to the concept of heaven, but he/she hopes God might overlook that apathy and invite him/her to spend eternity in his presence.
Here's my question to both people: Do you want to be a much-loved child in God's family?
Because I think he has made his offer of forgiveness and love fairly clear in the person of Jesus, but he's not going to make you do something you're not interesting in. If you would prefer to be left alone, you're welcome to make that choice, but it seems weird to blame God for respecting your decision.
Maybe it is a language thing, but when I hear "I deny God's existence" what that means to me is basically "I am saying god does not exist".
And as a reasonable being, since I do not know that with absolute, 100% certainty, it is not something I would say.
And it is definitely not something I would say to my girlfriend's religious parents when they ask me if I am an atheist. I would simply say "I do not know if god exists or not, but so far I have had no reason to believe in him, so I don't."
They would probably still get pissed, but whatcha gonna do.
That clip was just terrible though.
Yup, in now way am I smart enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that there isn't some divine power of creation behind the universe.
But, while we figure that out / in the interim, it just feels safer to devote my life to somethig good [the basic tenants of what all monotheistic religions were built around, ie - do unto others] rather than something evil [the institution of organized religioin].
I've always felt the word "agnostic" is the only word to describe my spiritual beliefs. I believe the human mind is incapable of discovering or understanding the existence of a God. I live my life as if there could be a God, but my behaviors aren't altered either way.
Now, I do try to be a good person. I trust my self and my judgement of right and wrong/good and evil. If God exists, and I still end up somehow punished for genuinely attempting to be the best person I can, then so be it, that God sucks anyway.
About death... don't sweat it. It's normal, and will happen to everyone. I think death will be a sort of release, ending alot of the general suffering of life (anxiety/depression, physical pain, having to work to afford life, etc). I do try to enjoy it while I'm here; take in the sights/nature/art/living history and also create meaningful relationships, but at some point... all this shit's exhausting.
Now, I do try to be a good person. I trust my self and my judgement of right and wrong/good and evil. If God exists, and I still end up somehow punished for genuinely attempting to be the best person I can, then so be it, that God sucks anyway.
About death... don't sweat it. It's normal, and will happen to everyone. I think death will be a sort of release, ending alot of the general suffering of life (anxiety/depression, physical pain, having to work to afford life, etc). I do try to enjoy it while I'm here; take in the sights/nature/art/living history and also create meaningful relationships, but at some point... all this shit's exhausting.
Religion never sat right with me, it always felt like brain washing and denial. Even as a child overly religious themes/people just made my stomach queasy like something was wrong. As an Adult that feeling just got stronger. Religion and Christianity in particular just doesn't makes sense, basing your entire life on a 2000 year old book that has been translated tons of times and is not even historically accurate based on facts we do know just seems slightly delusional.
Then we can look at the blatant hypocrisy of religion in my view, it has caused more deaths and wars then pretty much any single reason in human history, It is used to manipulate and extort people and also prey on them mentally and physically. Modern conservatives which cater to religious people are more concerned with the "fuck you got mine" mantra than helping others. Abortion is wrong but once you are born here some boot straps screw you're on your own.
The Christian idea of god seems like they have made this being out to be a very petty foolish and vengeful entity, why does this omni potent god care so much about such mundane rituals and habits of some creatures on a small rock? If I were god I'd be really pissed off at how petty and ignorant modern religion has made me out to be.
I live my life in a fairly moral way, I'm a good father, good husband and generally try to be a good person not through the fear of god but just because that is the best way to live your life. If I'm wrong and go to hell even though I've lived my life in a moral caring way then I want no part of that type of god.
In the end I think Religion was an evolutionary trait developed by early societies as a way to keep going and bring order to society and also for individuals a crutch to ease the fear of death, it may have had benefits in the past but I think we as a society have grown past the need for religion and it is more harmful than good.
As far as how I deal with the idea of death, as much as I enjoy life and my family it will come as a great relief when the time comes and be exactly like it was the billions of year before I was born.
Not trying to be abrasive and insulting but that is the thread topic so these are my true feeling on the subject
Then we can look at the blatant hypocrisy of religion in my view, it has caused more deaths and wars then pretty much any single reason in human history, It is used to manipulate and extort people and also prey on them mentally and physically. Modern conservatives which cater to religious people are more concerned with the "fuck you got mine" mantra than helping others. Abortion is wrong but once you are born here some boot straps screw you're on your own.
The Christian idea of god seems like they have made this being out to be a very petty foolish and vengeful entity, why does this omni potent god care so much about such mundane rituals and habits of some creatures on a small rock? If I were god I'd be really pissed off at how petty and ignorant modern religion has made me out to be.
I live my life in a fairly moral way, I'm a good father, good husband and generally try to be a good person not through the fear of god but just because that is the best way to live your life. If I'm wrong and go to hell even though I've lived my life in a moral caring way then I want no part of that type of god.
In the end I think Religion was an evolutionary trait developed by early societies as a way to keep going and bring order to society and also for individuals a crutch to ease the fear of death, it may have had benefits in the past but I think we as a society have grown past the need for religion and it is more harmful than good.
As far as how I deal with the idea of death, as much as I enjoy life and my family it will come as a great relief when the time comes and be exactly like it was the billions of year before I was born.
Not trying to be abrasive and insulting but that is the thread topic so these are my true feeling on the subject
Then I won't be alone. There are a lot of different religions with a lot of devout followers, all equally sure of their righteousness. If one of those religions turns out to be true, everyone who bet on the wrong horse will be joining my atheist ass in hell. Not to mention the fact that if god does exist then they're a psychopathic, manipulative, egocentric, mass murderer. I'd rather go back to being space dust than hang out with that asshole.
The concept of heaven is complete nonsense. It falls apart when you begin to ask the most basic questions. For instance, let's say that heaven for one person involves being alone. Then say that heaven for another person involves having the person from the first proposition over for tea. Who's "heaven" is getting fucked up in this scenario? As for what actually happens when we die... no one can say for sure. However, there was "nothing" before you were born so it's not that hard to imagine what "nothing" would be like after you're dead.
Because you're still here. You might not be around once you're dead but the effects of your life will still be felt by those you leave behind. Do some good while you're here and you can die knowing that you're leaving the world slightly better off because of your actions.
I've given up on the notion of abolishing religion. It's here to stay. The fact that you'd be killed for your lack of a religion in certain countries should speak volumes about religion in general. That being said, atheism is on the rise in the United States. I can't speak for the rest of the world but from what I understand, many countries already contain a huge percentage of people that don't consider themselves religious.
This goes far beyond religion. I mean, when you consider the idea of a multiverse or the possibility that we're all in a simulation... where do you even begin?
Agnosticism and atheism answer two different questions. Here's a video that may help you out with that. As for whether or not you should "come out", that's entirely up to you. You know your friends and family better than anyone here. You can probably guess what their reaction might be like and whether or not you're prepared to deal with that reaction.
Most of my family does go to church every week. It's just my immediate family. My mom, grandmother, my brother and I, that didn't really go a lot. I believe my mom is catholic. It's not something we talk about a lot. She's knows and accepts where I stand on the issue. But the idea of god being a thing, and praying or saying grace or stuff like that has always been part of the household. I just never participated in it.
OP
OP
I guess I'm in the minority in that I don't spend alot of time thinking or worrying about religion or death. I mean there are only two possibilities. Either God exists or he doesn't. If he doesn't then there is nothing to be afraid of, simply be kind to others while we are here and then one day...POOF! my existence will be gone in a flash. If he does exist than he is either a petty asswipe or a good person. If he is good then he will let me into heaven for being a good person and won't be all like "you accomplished alot of good but whats this? you didn't come to church every sunday to sing songs about how cool I am? To hell with you!". If he is an asshole then I guess me and almost everyone else in existence besides whoever just randomly guessed the correct religion and followed all the laws perfectly will go to Hell.
We can't know anything and worrying about it accomplishes nothing and choosing some random stuff to believe based on nothing is a crappy solution. The solution is to not think about it and try to be a good person not for some hypothetical reward, but because being good makes you feel good.
We can't know anything and worrying about it accomplishes nothing and choosing some random stuff to believe based on nothing is a crappy solution. The solution is to not think about it and try to be a good person not for some hypothetical reward, but because being good makes you feel good.
Agnostic is more like they don't know. If they believe in a higher power, but don't know what it is, it's agnostic theist. If they don't believe in a higher power and don't know that there is one, then its agnostic atheism (default for many atheists).
-What if you're wrong
Then I'm wrong. If for some reason, some way, a higher power exists. I still don't need to believe in it, since my life still functions without it.
-There's no afterlife
It makes me think that life is more precious without it.
-Your legacy won't matter to you when you're dead. Why should it matter now?
It matters now because you affect the people around you. Your legacy matters when you're dead because of what you're able to leave behind.
-In a country so heavy in Christianity, am I a minority? Other countries would kill me for not being a believer.
Possibly. If it's so bad that it'd cause you harm, then possibly fake/front it
-Was "free will" ever a thing?
Not sure about free will. I mean, almost everything we do is based on another influence. I think there's many definitions in philosophy for it
I came to accept it by realizing that there's so much bad things going on in the world and god does nothing
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Well, I was born in quite a religious country. While my father is agnostic, my mother and almost all my relatives are Catholic Christians. So obviously, I was one too.
But somewhere along the way while I was growing, I started to realize that there may not be a god out there. I mean, there are many religions that claim an omnipotent being out there is watching us. That if we do evil stuff then we will go to hell for all eternity after we die. That Jesus died for our sins and returned to the world of the livings some days after he died. There may be a God, or may not be, but even if a God exists, you can be sure I won't follow nor kneel nor have that being control my life. In the end, I realized religion is basically control. And traditions. And that the authorities are completely against change and progress. See how they react to topics like women rights, abortion, people from the LGBT community, euthanasia... They just reek of hypocrisy.
But somewhere along the way while I was growing, I started to realize that there may not be a god out there. I mean, there are many religions that claim an omnipotent being out there is watching us. That if we do evil stuff then we will go to hell for all eternity after we die. That Jesus died for our sins and returned to the world of the livings some days after he died. There may be a God, or may not be, but even if a God exists, you can be sure I won't follow nor kneel nor have that being control my life. In the end, I realized religion is basically control. And traditions. And that the authorities are completely against change and progress. See how they react to topics like women rights, abortion, people from the LGBT community, euthanasia... They just reek of hypocrisy.
I've never believed in a deity.
I have certain values, and I do what it takes to keep or develop what's important to me because that's what makes life better to me.
I have certain values, and I do what it takes to keep or develop what's important to me because that's what makes life better to me.
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Wouldn't it make more sense to end your logic string this way...
If he does exist than he is either a petty asswipe or a good person. If he is good then I should try to know him better in case he has laid out a path for my future.
If there is a capital-G God, then doesn't it seem unwise to thumb your nose at his (potentially) sovereign rule?
OP, I too was brought up in a Christian household. And, also began to question everything I'd been brought up on in college. I'm not comfortably an Atheist, though I still can't admit it to my parents after all these years because my mother especially would flip. Shit, she still berates be to go to Church every Sunday. As for how this affected me, I found it quite liberating. All my life I was brought up on the belief of their being a Cosmic Eye over-watching us all. That good and evil were knowable truths and that good people would be rewarded and bad people punished. And, most of all, that God had a plan for everyone, even me. Once this illusion was shattered I understood that while nothing was certain and that life wasn't fair, I also understood that everything was in my control. I didn't have to wait for God's plan to come into fruition for my life to get better, I was in complete control over my life. If I wanted something, I could go out and there and try and get it. And, while there was no cosmic force helping me along the way, there was also no cosmic force preventing me from achieving what I wanted either.
I should also note I'm just against the whole idea of some Supreme Arbiter, who isn't even a human, judging humans for their actions. Like, who the fuck are you to judge me or anyone else? The very idea of the Abrahmic God makes no sense as revealed through Epicurus' paradox.
As far the after life and the meaning of life, I found that becoming an Atheist only enhanced my feelings on life. I never really understood the concept of heaven and the after life, why did anything matter here on Earth when the After-Life was eternal and infinitely better? And, how could an eternity in the after-life not get boring? Now, because life has a definitive end it makes it, and our world, all the more special. Every human being is unique. Every moment of our life profound. This being precisely because they can never happen again. Our lives have meaning because they eventually end. And, we each get to define our own meaning in life. The only thing that makes me somewhat "sad" or rather give a profound existential dread, is that our universe too will eventually "die" one day. By that I mean, the forces of entropy will scatter every atom and molecule so far apart that the universe will be a complete black and lifeless place where nothing every happens or changes, where time has no meaning. Dead. I find this disconcerting because while eventually I will die it's with the knowledge that humanity and the universe will continue on. But, if the universe does eventually die then what exactly was the purpose of anything? It's not that the universe will die, it's that it will be dead forever. The brief time in which the universe even existed, not even counting humans, won't matter in the grand scheme of things.
However, it's kind of useless thinking about such a concept given our limited understanding of the universe. For instance, for all we know, the universe ends through a Big Crunch, collapsing in on itself before creating another Big Bang in and endless cycle of life and death. Or perhaps the humans in the future will advance so far that the "death" of the universe will be a trivial matter. We'll simply open an alternate dimension into another universe to live in or create a whole new universe for ourselves. So, yeah, best not to dwell on that.
I should also note I'm just against the whole idea of some Supreme Arbiter, who isn't even a human, judging humans for their actions. Like, who the fuck are you to judge me or anyone else? The very idea of the Abrahmic God makes no sense as revealed through Epicurus' paradox.
As far the after life and the meaning of life, I found that becoming an Atheist only enhanced my feelings on life. I never really understood the concept of heaven and the after life, why did anything matter here on Earth when the After-Life was eternal and infinitely better? And, how could an eternity in the after-life not get boring? Now, because life has a definitive end it makes it, and our world, all the more special. Every human being is unique. Every moment of our life profound. This being precisely because they can never happen again. Our lives have meaning because they eventually end. And, we each get to define our own meaning in life. The only thing that makes me somewhat "sad" or rather give a profound existential dread, is that our universe too will eventually "die" one day. By that I mean, the forces of entropy will scatter every atom and molecule so far apart that the universe will be a complete black and lifeless place where nothing every happens or changes, where time has no meaning. Dead. I find this disconcerting because while eventually I will die it's with the knowledge that humanity and the universe will continue on. But, if the universe does eventually die then what exactly was the purpose of anything? It's not that the universe will die, it's that it will be dead forever. The brief time in which the universe even existed, not even counting humans, won't matter in the grand scheme of things.
However, it's kind of useless thinking about such a concept given our limited understanding of the universe. For instance, for all we know, the universe ends through a Big Crunch, collapsing in on itself before creating another Big Bang in and endless cycle of life and death. Or perhaps the humans in the future will advance so far that the "death" of the universe will be a trivial matter. We'll simply open an alternate dimension into another universe to live in or create a whole new universe for ourselves. So, yeah, best not to dwell on that.
indoctrination is a hell of a drug
just like all of human history, some people instinctively bow down to authority and others do not
respect and reverence should be earned, it doesn't matter if its a frog, human, or an alien being living outside the cosmos
is this why religion has stuck with us for this long as a species? People will sometimes transform their entire lives against their own wishes when a stronger human tells them to, but a being as strong as a diety? now that cranks our authoritarian instincts up to 11
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I'm a Christian who also has a degree in biochemistry. I've been fascinated by the study of origins and I think there are probably a few people in this thread who share that interest. For those select people, I highly recommend this book. It is in its second printing now and it includes Meyer's response to the critics from the original publication.
Stephen "Discovery Institute" Meyer? No thanks. I have little interest in supporting people who try to undermine science, and fight to force intelligent design into public schools.
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I'm a Christian who also has a degree in biochemistry. I've been fascinated by the study of origins and I think there are probably a few people in this thread who share that interest. For those select people, I highly recommend this book. It is in its second printing now and it includes Meyer's response to the critics from the original publication.
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That book is pseudo science, misleading hogwash, funded by anti evolution thinktank discovery institute.
I suggest reading the criticisms, to see the intellectually dishonest stretches he makes to even have a premise.
Lots of money in peddling anti science i guess. I wonder why? Like, why are there so many VERY well funded anti science think tanks and million dollar prizes for conservative literature. I dont get it.
Science is not anti religion. Science is indifferent, there just has been no proof. Only indoctrinated people trying to steer the unexplained phenomena of our universe down a particular path for no reason other than to justify their particular indoctrination.
National review of all places did a good article on it. https://www.nationalreview.com/nrd/articles/355862/how-nature-works
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Well for a world and society where logic is a core aspect i never understood how believing in illogical fairy tales that are clearly relics of a old society which believed in everything is still a thing.
Of course you can believe in a higher power but at the end of the day its just wishful thinking without any hint of existence.
I see religions as a feel good placebo if you feel like shit, hopeless or you are just scared of dying.
Of course you can believe in a higher power but at the end of the day its just wishful thinking without any hint of existence.
I see religions as a feel good placebo if you feel like shit, hopeless or you are just scared of dying.
Basically it was just logical. Religion seems to be used by people to create division. And there is just a bunch of inconsistencies for me, in how people practice and what the religions say.
I found my answers in science. I was never a believer anyway, I didn't like church, didn't have the fear of god or think I needed something to justify my existence.
I don't think there are gods, beings that look over us (for some fucking reason, like we are that special). I just think that the universe has always been, energy and shit cycles and renews itself. I'm not worried about death because life is beautiful only due to the fact that we will eventually die, and I want to experience what I can. But if I died tomorrow I would feel fine with what I have experienced thus far, I have seen beauty, I have felt love, and those are the greatest joys in this life. And when I die, I will decompose into elements and be a part of the creation of something, whether it's a star, a tree, a healthy soil, a new born baby, whatever.
You should worry less about what people think of you, and more about how you can make the world better for others. When you are empathetic and kind, you become satisfied with your life, you are given friendship, you are given all you need.
I found my answers in science. I was never a believer anyway, I didn't like church, didn't have the fear of god or think I needed something to justify my existence.
I don't think there are gods, beings that look over us (for some fucking reason, like we are that special). I just think that the universe has always been, energy and shit cycles and renews itself. I'm not worried about death because life is beautiful only due to the fact that we will eventually die, and I want to experience what I can. But if I died tomorrow I would feel fine with what I have experienced thus far, I have seen beauty, I have felt love, and those are the greatest joys in this life. And when I die, I will decompose into elements and be a part of the creation of something, whether it's a star, a tree, a healthy soil, a new born baby, whatever.
You should worry less about what people think of you, and more about how you can make the world better for others. When you are empathetic and kind, you become satisfied with your life, you are given friendship, you are given all you need.
Surely there are many possible answers to that but, from a biblical perspective, God cares how we live because we bear his likeness. We reflect his character and he, ultimately, became human in the person of Jesus.
Jesus' humanity will never be taken away. He is and will forever be human like the rest of us. It's part of the reason BossAttack might want to re-think his position on Christianity...
Bro, Jesus wasn't a human. Human's can't cure other humans through sheer touch, raise the dead, or come back from the dead. Nor do they posses the sure fire knowledge that a GOD exists and they are the Son of said GOD. So no, wearing the likeness of a human doesn't make God-Jesus-or the Holy Ghost, human. We don't say Zeus was a human or some wild animal because he took the shapes of various other life-forms to fuck chics.
If you want to sweep his scientific arguments under the rug, I obviously can't stop you. But being closed-minded to a well-argued, well-supported book is probably not to your benefit.
The Discovery Institute is actually fairly clear on this issue – public school is no place for ID education – and it had that stance before the Dover trial. Furthermore, I have read some of the criticisms to Meyer's work, but I haven't found anything yet that is overly compelling.
Yup. Although in my case, I did have to "unindoctrinate" myself from my Roman Catholic upbringing. I'm actually not sure how I did it, but I was very skeptical of religion since I was like 15 years old. The internet, i.e. having access to all human knowledge, helped a lot.
I really hate how religion works and who it typically preys upon. It holds too many anti-science platforms... The scorecard shows how science has provided explanations for so many things, and yet people still look for gaps in knowledge in order to hold belief. Literally using ignorance as an argument. Hopefully science keeps winning and people stop worshiping the "god of the gaps".
We're probably all wrong anyway. I'm confident that no established, modernly practiced religion is actually true. If something out there is responsible for all of this, it is far beyond human comprehension.
What have we done to deserve an afterlife? All we have is now, so live your life like it's your last (because it probably is)
Although Heaven may not be real, that doesn't make the people around you and the world you live in any less real. People matter, relationships matter, life matters; Your "legacy" should be concerned with preserving these principles for yourself and others.
As of now you're technically a religious minority. Some other countries aren't too fond of atheism, so if you're ever visiting, just keep your mouth shut about it and you'll be fine.
Who knows? Who cares? Don't think about it, just live your life.
Hope that helped.
If ID proponents want to be taken seriously, they should publish papers in respected scientific journals so they can be scrutinized by peer review. I can't accept arguments from ignorance as evidence for design.
Found it on Archive.org. Book isn't that long. I'll read it, but I can't imagine it has any arguments I haven't heard already.
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Since I haven't read the book, could you post excerpts of some of their scientific arguments?
As stated previously, it was Epicurus's paradox that put the final nail in the Abrahamic concept of God's coffin for me.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
As far as I'm concerned, that's "game/set/match".
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
As far as I'm concerned, that's "game/set/match".
I was raised in a christian home. nothing was wrong with my church. I participated and truly enjoyed going to church every weekend. The people were great and we did a lot of activites outside of services like camping, going to movies, amusement parks, etc..what started to shake my views were learning about older religions and seeing the similar legends, the science of some of the bible's claims and quite frankly the fact that I didnt really see any real benefit to being a religious person vs not..
the first part started in college. I was still very much religious but didn't attend services much anymore. I decided to take a lot of courses in religious studies, including eastern religions as well as religious from the middle east, egypt and mediteranian. To read about how many takes were so similar to stories told in the bible was sort of eye opening..the various flood stories, legends of "messiahs" that were born of virgins, killed and rose from the dead and the like...It lead me to question it's authenticity since before, i thought every word of the bible was FACT and not to be questioned..
then the science started to further shake me. Learning about the creation and how this flew in the face of evolution. The idea that God created the earth in 6 days and the universe just "poof" as an afterthought during those days...The impossibility of a worldwide flood and how this would affect all of the earth..this would kill all plant life and water creature as the temp and salt contents of the oceans would be fucked..not even getting into the sillines of an ark carrying every animal..what about how Joshua asked God to stop the sun midway for 24hrs..HOW?? and no other culture around the world mentions a day that never got dark?..then i remember how the thought at the time was that the earth was a dome with the sun, moon and stars just stiched into it's fermament. Let's not forget how in teh "end times" the stars are supposed to rain down on us..many many more issues here that would take me all day but those were a few..
And lastly, what's the point of it all? I noticed a pattern when things happened to people....when something bad happened to a good person it was god's divine plan, not to be questioned. if something good happened to them, god's blessing them...if something bad happened to a bad person, it was god's judgement, but if something good happened to them, it was satan helping them out..basically every time, god and the christian had to come out the winner. but i'd see christians suffer just as much as secular people..i'd see secular people living nice, happy lives..was satan really helping them or was god being generous..none of this made sense..prayer never worked..if i prayed for something i never got it..sick people always died, my pets always died, i didn't get the job...then one day it just hit me, prayer was nothing more than that last "wish" when you know nothing can be done..hearing your granfather has cancer and nothing else can be done feels hopeless...but what if..what if there's that one last hope..prayer..we turn to it because even though it's hail mary, at least, in your heart, there's still ONE LAST SECOND OPINION" but it never works and we say it's god's plan..god wins again..Heaven was how we made yourselves feel better about losing someone.."yes grandma has passed but don't worry, yo'll see her again, and grandfather and this persona and your pets, etc" what a great feeling huh? but that's all it is...to make you feel better..
This decision did not happen quickly..it was YEARS..like many videos from former christias and seeing what they went through and i found myself relating..the final road block was getting that feeling that "god is watching" out f my head...once i finally accepted it, I can say it was like a huge weight off my chest..no more feeling that I had to behave a certain way to impress a diety, I'd rather be a good person because I WANT TO..not because i feel it will keep god from punishing me..my family is still religious and that's fine..I've chosen to be an athiest for me and feel everyone has a right to believe what they want.
the first part started in college. I was still very much religious but didn't attend services much anymore. I decided to take a lot of courses in religious studies, including eastern religions as well as religious from the middle east, egypt and mediteranian. To read about how many takes were so similar to stories told in the bible was sort of eye opening..the various flood stories, legends of "messiahs" that were born of virgins, killed and rose from the dead and the like...It lead me to question it's authenticity since before, i thought every word of the bible was FACT and not to be questioned..
then the science started to further shake me. Learning about the creation and how this flew in the face of evolution. The idea that God created the earth in 6 days and the universe just "poof" as an afterthought during those days...The impossibility of a worldwide flood and how this would affect all of the earth..this would kill all plant life and water creature as the temp and salt contents of the oceans would be fucked..not even getting into the sillines of an ark carrying every animal..what about how Joshua asked God to stop the sun midway for 24hrs..HOW?? and no other culture around the world mentions a day that never got dark?..then i remember how the thought at the time was that the earth was a dome with the sun, moon and stars just stiched into it's fermament. Let's not forget how in teh "end times" the stars are supposed to rain down on us..many many more issues here that would take me all day but those were a few..
And lastly, what's the point of it all? I noticed a pattern when things happened to people....when something bad happened to a good person it was god's divine plan, not to be questioned. if something good happened to them, god's blessing them...if something bad happened to a bad person, it was god's judgement, but if something good happened to them, it was satan helping them out..basically every time, god and the christian had to come out the winner. but i'd see christians suffer just as much as secular people..i'd see secular people living nice, happy lives..was satan really helping them or was god being generous..none of this made sense..prayer never worked..if i prayed for something i never got it..sick people always died, my pets always died, i didn't get the job...then one day it just hit me, prayer was nothing more than that last "wish" when you know nothing can be done..hearing your granfather has cancer and nothing else can be done feels hopeless...but what if..what if there's that one last hope..prayer..we turn to it because even though it's hail mary, at least, in your heart, there's still ONE LAST SECOND OPINION" but it never works and we say it's god's plan..god wins again..Heaven was how we made yourselves feel better about losing someone.."yes grandma has passed but don't worry, yo'll see her again, and grandfather and this persona and your pets, etc" what a great feeling huh? but that's all it is...to make you feel better..
This decision did not happen quickly..it was YEARS..like many videos from former christias and seeing what they went through and i found myself relating..the final road block was getting that feeling that "god is watching" out f my head...once i finally accepted it, I can say it was like a huge weight off my chest..no more feeling that I had to behave a certain way to impress a diety, I'd rather be a good person because I WANT TO..not because i feel it will keep god from punishing me..my family is still religious and that's fine..I've chosen to be an athiest for me and feel everyone has a right to believe what they want.
My parent's are chinese buddhists, I do their rituals with them, burn the incense, spill the tea, burn offerings to our ancestors etc but they never indoctrinated me, never told me anything about why we did these things so I've just been an atheist my whole life. I always figured it was the default state.
I just went with it, but my parents were never really religious. Once middle school came out I started thinking deeper about life. Also, science got a little deeper. One day in class, I just asked about the possibility of a God not existing because it didn't seem likely. I forget the response, but we moved on quickly.
Thinking back, the counselor was there too, so the topic must have been around that and they were there to help guide the convo. This is was 96 or 97.
Thinking back, the counselor was there too, so the topic must have been around that and they were there to help guide the convo. This is was 96 or 97.
The academy isn't exactly friendly to outside ideas and it has been that way for centuries. Whether the issue was plate tectonics or stomach ulcers, paradigms are hard to shift due the built-in opposition to new theories.
Edit: I just stumbled upon this document: http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/filesDB-download.php?command=download&id=10141
I just found a helpful chapter summary that I've uploaded for you: http://www.maximum-attack.com/Darwins_Doubt.pdf
I went to catholic school, did the first communion, confirmation, etc.
At around 16 I began to question everything, and it didn't make sense to me to continue following this religion. Was fully atheist by 18.
I'm aware we all have different drives in life, so I understand why some people just choose to blindly believe. I legit thank religion for keeping some otherwise batshit insane people in check.
At around 16 I began to question everything, and it didn't make sense to me to continue following this religion. Was fully atheist by 18.
I'm aware we all have different drives in life, so I understand why some people just choose to blindly believe. I legit thank religion for keeping some otherwise batshit insane people in check.
Grew up in a very religious home.. Baptist to be exact. Through my 20s and 30s I started to question many things about what I was taught. As I sit here 40 years old I struggle with life.. struggle with meaning. I 100% do not believe in organized religion. I also find it amazing that we as humans are sitting here talking through a computer. I find it amazing to watch a bird or have a real conversation with another human. That all seems amazing to me and the thought that it was all by chance or a million things had to go right for it to happen is as much of a faith to me as any religion.
So I find myself in the middle.. struggling with the idea that I do not know the truth and there is no way to know that truth.
So I find myself in the middle.. struggling with the idea that I do not know the truth and there is no way to know that truth.
I was raised by a family that was passively religious. They all believed in God but we never went to church. I never questioned God existence, he just *was*.
Enter high school. My best friend and I were sitting in the cafeteria before school kicked off and somehow the question of "do you believe in God" came up within our friend group. I responded "of course". My best friend said, "I don't". I looked at him and said something to the effect of "What do you mean you don't believe in God?". He said, "I've been thinking about it a lot lately and it just doesn't add up, so I don't believe anymore.". I was dumbfounded. Before this moment, no one had ever questioned the existence of God. I didn't even consider the possibility of saying no to that question. My friend pointed me to a few resources pointing out the fundamental issues with Christianity. It didn't take more than a few hours to realize that I had been essentially lied to my whole life. From there it was years and years of thought, introspection, and discussion to get to where I am today.
Agnostic Atheist with regards to the overall concept of a God.
Gnostic Atheist with regards to pretty much every god concept that has been presented to me.
Enter high school. My best friend and I were sitting in the cafeteria before school kicked off and somehow the question of "do you believe in God" came up within our friend group. I responded "of course". My best friend said, "I don't". I looked at him and said something to the effect of "What do you mean you don't believe in God?". He said, "I've been thinking about it a lot lately and it just doesn't add up, so I don't believe anymore.". I was dumbfounded. Before this moment, no one had ever questioned the existence of God. I didn't even consider the possibility of saying no to that question. My friend pointed me to a few resources pointing out the fundamental issues with Christianity. It didn't take more than a few hours to realize that I had been essentially lied to my whole life. From there it was years and years of thought, introspection, and discussion to get to where I am today.
Agnostic Atheist with regards to the overall concept of a God.
Gnostic Atheist with regards to pretty much every god concept that has been presented to me.
-If you pick the wrong religion to follow then by most accounts you're "wrong" in the same way an atheist/agnostic is. At least for religions that believe in heaven/hell. So it's not like your odds are worse being non-religious when Christianity, Islam, etc claim to be exclusive paths of salvation.
-There's no beforelife that I can remember, so I'm not worried about an afterlife.
-While having no legacy/meaning in life feels bad, it also feels most true. Reading Camus might help you in that struggle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Camus#Ideas_on_the_absurd
-"Non-religious" is definitely a growing minority in America, even if it's not directly agnostic or atheist. IMO non-religious is a hair's breath away from agnostic, but people just feel they have to say there's "something" out there to give meaning, or else it's too depressing.
-Free will probably isn't a thing. And regardless of whether it is or isn't a thing, the framework for religious salvation is equally ridiculous either way.
- I don't think I am wrong. There is no evidence for me being wrong. Even if there was, there are literally thousands of gods to believe in. Which one is the right one?
- I'm not bothered by this. Life is what you make of it and then you die. When I'm dead it won't matter to me anyway.
- Ultimately, it doesn't but we're proud animals so it gives me that dopamine.
- I come from an even more religious country where being a nonbeliever was sometimes a jeopardy to my safety. It's actually pretty ok in America. Count your blessings (pun intended)
- Maybe? Maybe not? We don't know right now, but it doesn't matter. If it's not a thing, it's not like we can do anything about it, and if it is a thing, cool? It makes no difference to our life either way.
I was raised religious then I broke out of it. Once you realize that your religious belief entirely depends on where you're born it kind of makes the whole thing look absurd. Thinking you have all the correct answers to the big questions of the universe and everyone else has it wrong, simply based on who raised you and where. That's pretty absurd if you think about it.
Yeah. A lot of this resonates with me. When I hung up my faith, what followed was liberating. Starting with actually understanding what science says about evolution, rather than creationist strawmen, I reassessed everything I originally believed as I encountered it for the very first time with an open mind.
Your examples support the power of peer review, not weaken it. Those concepts would never have been published in scientific literature if they weren't backed by evidence. If journals only published papers that echoed current beliefs, we would never make any advancements.
I'm still going to read that book for myself. Though, I'm not certain the copy I found on Archive.org is the latest edition. That is to say, feature the responses to the first publications critiques.