Superman will outlive DC comics
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At this point, is Superman at risk of slipping out of DC´s ¨big 3¨ and losing the spot to another superhero?
- Thread starter SilverX
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I don't think younger people are nearly as enamored with Superman as they are with the other high profile heroes like a Batman or Spider-Man. But I don't think that diminishes his importance to the DC brand, they just have not adapted him for audiences nearly as well. Maybe they will one day.
No one will ever make me believe that Aquaman was a billion dollar movie for any other reason than that it stars Jason Mamoa and maybe a bit of James Wan. If Mamoa isn't Aquaman that movie does half the B.O. it did. I'd argue Mamoa is a huge factor as to why they're desperately trying to fix this franchise without a full reboot and recast. So no I don't think Superman is in any danger of being replaced with anyone, especially Aquaman.
Ehh I think if you factor out the logo and focus on "can you name specific character details" this question gets harder I could definitely see a scenario in the future where the general audience gets the iconography and its literary history significance but doesn't understand the specific details like Louis/Lanna, Jimmy, Lex, Krypton, Krypto, Brainiac, etc.
it fucking sucks, man
that shit even helped drag down the animated series, which didn't have the best look but it was so fun
Wonder Woman literally did not get mainstream solo content for decades and she didn't drop out. These characters are bigger than whatever is going on with the films
Yep.
Robin may never be in another Batman film, maybe Supes won't get a movie for a while but fucking green lantern is DEAD media wise
You're absolutely correct. It was a cool and unique looking big budget blockbuster movie with shirtless Mamoa.
Apparently the OP thinks it made a billion dollars because people love Aquaman and he is more popular than Superman.
People have such a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Big 3 even means. It really has nothing to do with how popular a character is in the current time period. It has always referred to the 3 characters that survived in their most iconic look and shape from the early years of DC Comics and have continued, in some form, in that form through the decades. Meaning that Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman have continued to be published and/or adapted since the late 30s, early 40s almost completely uninterrupted, which is something pretty much no other comic character from DC can say as all their other characters have gone extended periods with some absence or was replaced at some point with a new version (the original Green Lantern and Flash, for instance).
If it was just based on popularity at the time period, then all three would have fallen out of the big three at some point. Wonder Woman had some truly dire years at various points, Batman went through a big slump in the early to mid 70s before Denny O'Neil took over, and Superman has various periods where he's been out of vogue since the late 80s. But that doesn't really mean anything to what the big 3 is.
When one of those characters completely vanishes for like 5 years, then you can call a meeting to decide who takes that spot.
If it was just based on popularity at the time period, then all three would have fallen out of the big three at some point. Wonder Woman had some truly dire years at various points, Batman went through a big slump in the early to mid 70s before Denny O'Neil took over, and Superman has various periods where he's been out of vogue since the late 80s. But that doesn't really mean anything to what the big 3 is.
When one of those characters completely vanishes for like 5 years, then you can call a meeting to decide who takes that spot.
Superman is in a weird space, where the iconography behind (The "S" symbol, glasses, pose and Kryptonite) are far more recognizable and profitable, than him as a character/person.
Old people used to say: Even my grandmother knows about Lois Lane, Luthor and Jimmy Olsen. That's no longer the case. And if the trend continues, in the next decade, it all will be mostly geek culture references.
You can see it at all fronts:
Face? Cavill has kept visibility thanks to the last MI/Witcher, but most people still associate the hero, with Reeve's trilogy (and nobody still watch those).
Enemies? Aside of Luthor, and maaaybe the face of Darkseid, nobody remembers Doomsday, Bizarro, Mr Mxyzptlk, etc
Personality? Ask people, and you likely won't get specifics about how he is.
Batman is Smart and reserved. Spiderman and IronMan are quipping smartasses. Superman? Eehh.. brave?
So, yes: Superman as a concept is still quite famous (and will remain so, for long time). Internet culture will make sure of that.
But him as a character for people to relate to? Only by proxy, thanks to Batman and his Justice League.
It all can be fixed with a great movie, though.
Old people used to say: Even my grandmother knows about Lois Lane, Luthor and Jimmy Olsen. That's no longer the case. And if the trend continues, in the next decade, it all will be mostly geek culture references.
You can see it at all fronts:
Face? Cavill has kept visibility thanks to the last MI/Witcher, but most people still associate the hero, with Reeve's trilogy (and nobody still watch those).
Enemies? Aside of Luthor, and maaaybe the face of Darkseid, nobody remembers Doomsday, Bizarro, Mr Mxyzptlk, etc
Personality? Ask people, and you likely won't get specifics about how he is.
Batman is Smart and reserved. Spiderman and IronMan are quipping smartasses. Superman? Eehh.. brave?
So, yes: Superman as a concept is still quite famous (and will remain so, for long time). Internet culture will make sure of that.
But him as a character for people to relate to? Only by proxy, thanks to Batman and his Justice League.
It all can be fixed with a great movie, though.
Wether you like it or not, Superman is the most iconic super hero. I was never a fan, but even I accepted that a long time ago.
In terms of what? Money being made? Sure, could happen.
In terms of mindshare or recognizability? Will never happen.
In terms of mindshare or recognizability? Will never happen.
If Merchandising is the real marker for success Superman isn't that hot.
If Merchandising is the real marker for success Superman isn't that hot.
Merchandise sales definitely aren't the only factor, because yeah, if they were, Spider-Man is still the absolute uncontested god.
I agree but the post I responded to called it the real marker for success and that's not an argument that goes in Superman's favor.
The fact that they list Superman here is clear proof that merchandising for Superman is extremely successful. Obviously, Superman doesn't bring in the same money as Batman or Spidey, but the fact that he's listed here instead of Wonder Woman, Flash, etc. is exactly my point.If Merchandising is the real marker for success Superman isn't that hot.
Superman the character, the look and the logo aren't diminishing anytime soon.
But I do (personally) think that his cast of characters have lost a lot of steam. You can't just expect the younger generation to know about Lois Lane or Lex Luthor or Zod, even if they know about Superman.
But I do (personally) think that his cast of characters have lost a lot of steam. You can't just expect the younger generation to know about Lois Lane or Lex Luthor or Zod, even if they know about Superman.
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Yet his name was used to promote it, it lured in a lot of viewers on that alone. Everyone I knew was calling it ¨Nolan´s Superman¨ when it was nearing release lol.
For Superman though there would be no sense of progression if you had access to everything he could do from the start. Even Batman games have to unlocking gadgets throughout your playthrough
If that were true they wouldnt have awkwardly added her name to the film post launch lol. And the way they did it only added further to the embarrassment ....Birds of Prey (and the Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn)
You´d be surprised how easy it is to create cognitive dissonance with audiences/consumers
Sense of progression is just that: a sense. It can take a lot of different forms and doesn't necessarily have to be a matter of power ups. Breath of the Wild is a game where you have most everything you'll ever get within the first 10 minutes, the sense of progression is there just the sense of getting closer to whatever your goals are. Hell even the usual Mario game gets its sense of progression from simply getting through levels. There's nothing about Superman that inherently doesn't work for video games, it's just people are usually thinking of a very specific kind of game and that's where you might have issues.
Her name was always in the title. The movie was originally called Birds of Prey (and the Fantabulous Emancipation of One Harley Quinn).
Note the "Harley Quinn".
The movie theaters changed the name to Harley Quinn: Birds of Prey on their marketing.
Was the name atrocious? Abso-fucking-lutely....but it always had Harley front and center.
Heh.
"Hey, remember when I was literally CAPTAIN COMPANY BRAND-NAME?!"
Now he's hanging out with Captain Commando and Alex Kidd.
Yeah Captain Marvel/Shazam was once the most popular superhero in comics, seeling like a million every week.
Or honestly just overthinking it
Spider-Man can get killed because some dude punched him or Kratos the god of war who fights can get killed by wolves and skeletons and they both have a progression system
You can just have guys with lasers or power armor to nitpiks
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Well thats funny because I always thought it was just ¨Birds of Prey¨ since that was how it was advertised. I thought no mention of Harley Quinn was there till post release.
Either way, the film should have been advertised more clearly as a Harley Quinn story. Audiences did not care about the Birds of Prey part for that aspect to be promoted at the forefront.
My 5 year old son doesn't consume super hero comic books, tv shows, or movies and he can still tell me all about Superman
Oh absolutely, if the issue is finding people for Superman to fight that's real easy. He's only been fighting people for almost 100 years now.
The shitshow that was this movie definitely includes the naming scheme, I'll agree w/you on that one easily enough. It had numerous issues and the name was another on-top of the pile.
Not gonna happen. A Superman will always be in the big three. Just like there will always be a Batman and Wonder Woman. I don't mind change, at all, it's better for everyone.
There might be a year or two where it seems like Superman isn't in the top 3, but he has staying paying in a way none of the other characters do. You might already argue that Harley Quinn is above home right now (I wouldn't), but that's more of a current zeitgeist than a reflection of Superman no longer being a big deal.
I will say that I won't then to mail Superman on the big screen. Personally I love him as a father and would like to see that portrayal, especially if DC continues to embrace more standalone movies or series.
I will say that I won't then to mail Superman on the big screen. Personally I love him as a father and would like to see that portrayal, especially if DC continues to embrace more standalone movies or series.
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But what is that worth? Most people know about George Washington too, it doesn´t mean much other than being able to place a face to name and knowing the gist of the figure. Interest is key here, and for how recognizable Superman is the interest and appeal is surprisingly low and dropping compared to dozens of other heroes.
Its like you can interview random people and ask ¨Do you know the hero Superman?¨ and get tons of ¨Yeah¨ but if you ask ¨Do you care about Superman stuff?¨ you´d hear a lot of ¨Nah¨ responses after.
Right, I saw the problems the film had and did not enjoy it. But the film never had a chance because they thought Birds of Prey could be another Suicide Squad when the difference is it lacked a powerhouse name like Will Smith to bolster it. I just think making it seem like a Harley Quinn focused film would have had a way better result with a bigger opening weekend
See, this I can't agree with. Like I said, it was clearly a Harley Quinn movie. Were others in it? Yes, but it *was* advertised with her front and center. The real issue, imo, is it was clearly the Suicide Squad version of the character and that had baggage.
To say it wasn't Harley Quinn focused is, imo, incorrect, even though it damages your thesis.
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Like I said earlier, calling it ¨Birds of Prey¨ created a cognitive dissonance with audiences. It was clearly positioned towards being more than just Harley Quinn, that it was some new all female super team formation, and to be that.... it really was lacking in star power and recognizable hero/comic characters. Most people have no idea about them or simply do not care about the Birds of Prey team.
So selling people on something that is not really about Harley Quinn, but her and other characters, just gave people the vibes of being a cheapened Suicide Squad effort. I mean, Harley is usually there for just nonsense when with other characters so I believe selling it as a story about the character with growth and all that would have been way more appealing.
If you think Harley can't bring in her fans because other people are in the movie, then that kind of helps to point out that she doesn't really have a strong pull.
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So then Batman and Wonder Woman combined couldn´t save Justice League with their popularity by that logic
Justice League beat Birds of Brey by more than $450 million dollars at the Box Office, soooo....
What it's worth seems to be a different question than "who is the most popular/recognizable."
This discussion feels like the Spider-man film discussion from the 80s and 90s. Didn't it take 2 decades for a Spider-man film to finally come out?
It's hard for Superman to exit the cultural view of the superhero until we stop putting capes, underpants on the exterior and the forget the 'hero pose'. Superman movies fail mostly since the writers there don't know what to do with him. We live in an era where 'drama' sells like crazy. What's a character seen as a paragon of virtue and good deeds to modern writers jaded with cynicism and nihilism.
Superman as a character will always be recognisable, just like Mickey Mouse. He's the ubermensch concept brought to life.
In terms of cinema value, give it to someone who understands what the character is about rather than someone who wants to put their personal values on the character and you'll have a good story. It'll take a while for that to happen in an Avantgarde societal state currently controlled by fear and greed where nothing matters. While at it, also build someone who understands his villains better. e.g. Lex Luthor being one of Superman's ardent fans who's always afraid he will go against humanity. Write a story about a xenophobic antagonist and an immigrant protagonist who lives the values of the world they were brought into and you might actually do well.
The character recognition isn't going anywhere or dropping out. Superman and his imagery is semiotically linked in our cultural psyche to the concept of superhero - there's so many clones in so many cultures at this point let alone comics.
And I say this as someone who doesn't even care about Superman.
It's hard for Superman to exit the cultural view of the superhero until we stop putting capes, underpants on the exterior and the forget the 'hero pose'. Superman movies fail mostly since the writers there don't know what to do with him. We live in an era where 'drama' sells like crazy. What's a character seen as a paragon of virtue and good deeds to modern writers jaded with cynicism and nihilism.
Superman as a character will always be recognisable, just like Mickey Mouse. He's the ubermensch concept brought to life.
In terms of cinema value, give it to someone who understands what the character is about rather than someone who wants to put their personal values on the character and you'll have a good story. It'll take a while for that to happen in an Avantgarde societal state currently controlled by fear and greed where nothing matters. While at it, also build someone who understands his villains better. e.g. Lex Luthor being one of Superman's ardent fans who's always afraid he will go against humanity. Write a story about a xenophobic antagonist and an immigrant protagonist who lives the values of the world they were brought into and you might actually do well.
The character recognition isn't going anywhere or dropping out. Superman and his imagery is semiotically linked in our cultural psyche to the concept of superhero - there's so many clones in so many cultures at this point let alone comics.
And I say this as someone who doesn't even care about Superman.
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Its budget and immense ad campaign made its performance a flop. They went all in thinking it would be at least over the $800 million mark or even hit $1 billion. Even Wonder Woman´s debut film earlier that year did much better.
It has everything to do with it though since Superman remains one of DC´s biggest problems as such a well known hero should actually be in demand. But even DC can admit that there are aspects about the character that make it hard to translate into a hero that modern audiences care about.
We're not talking profit, though, just popularity, and the box office receipts shows a ton more people went to see Justice League.
You bringing up Wonder Woman is another good example to show how far behind Harley really is.
Slayven deimosmasque I can get down with a Jack Ryder movie, but only if at the most important moment of the big climax the Creeper gets interested in something else and just fucks off into the night like he does.
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Justice League was an ¨event film¨ with all the major DC heroes joining together, it had the ¨event film¨ push which is why so many more people went to see it. Birds of Prey wasnt anticipated to perform at that level. Profit means everything here because nowhere near the expected amount of people went to see it.
Im not arguing Harley Quinn is more popular or anything like that, I am arguing the character could have done like a $300 million dollar film at the least instead of trying to make Birds of Prey a thing when it never was. All they had to do was adjust the naming and advertise the whole Harley Quinn story more than spotlighting a lot of characters that were completely unfamiliar to the masses
