Assault Android Cactus+ Dev (87 on metacritic): Epic Game store "wasn't interested."

[elyetis]

As I said yesterday, I just saw on the biggest french video game media an entire article/video with the promise that "We HAVE to support Epic Store against Steam".

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I kind of stopped following most french media after I realized that gamekult forum/comments were too much console war and that as a result I was becoming like that too.

Who posted that article, gamekult, jeuxvideo.com, someone else ? it will likely make my blood boil, but I need to read it.

 

[Deleted member 28076]

What really upsets me about Rami's comments is that he seems to think that just throwing Fortnite money at the problem until it goes away is "out-business'ing" Valve. That's not even an implicit endorsement, that's an explicit endorsement of the idea that Tim Sweeney, the 174th-richest man in the world, should be able to own the PC gaming market just because he says he does.

 

[Durante]

As I said yesterday, I just saw on the biggest french video game media an entire article/video with the promise that "We HAVE to support Epic Store against Steam".
Imagine the following "We HAVE to support Xbox One against PS4" or "We HAVE to support Switch against PS4". Imagine a media rooting for a company and asking their readers to do the same. I'm even thinking if such media wouldn't be flagged on ERA has being irrelevant and spouting console warring crap.

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Very well said!
And it's not just "We have to support X over Y", it's "We have to support X over Y, and here's a list of reasons we copied directly from X's marketing materials".

Perhaps this comparison will actually make people realize just how ludicrous the media situation surrounding this is.

 

[Unkindled]

fuck the sycophant media in particular.

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I agree. The way media has been playing it's part in this is downright shameful.

 

[GhostTrick]

I kind of stopped following most french media after I realized that gamekult forum/comments were too much console war and that as a result I was becoming like that too.

Who posted that article, gamekult, jeuxvideo.com, someone else ? it will likely make my blood boil, but I need to read it.

Click to shrink...

Jeuxvideo.com, of course lol.
http://www.jeuxvideo.com/news/10206...pic-game-store-l-avis-de-panthaa-en-video.htm

Some great pieces for non-french readers:
"C'est donc aux joueurs de soutenir cette nouvelle boutique en ligne pour créer de la concurrence à Steam, et ses trop nombreux jeux. "
"It's up to the gamers to support this new online storefront to create competition against Steam and its too large number of games"

(One lovely tidbits in the video: There are too many Steam sales).

I suspect the Money-Hatting goes beyond just paying for 'exclusives'.

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I dont think there's a straigth money hatting going on here. But in the case of PcGamesN, it's hard to give credit to a website praising EGS when they had an article labeled as "Promoted Content" from "Epic Games" about an "Unreal Engine 4" game that is "exclusive to EGS".

I can see why the press is being keen on Epic Games, because it's difficult to criticize publishers for business decisions when these publishers sends you material to do your job, such as reviewing games and posting press releases.

Very well said!
And it's not just "We have to support X over Y", it's "We have to support X over Y, and here's a list of reasons we copied directly from X's marketing materials".

Perhaps this comparison will actually make people realize just how ludicrous the media situation surrounding this is.

Click to shrink...

It's even more infuriating that the same people are telling you "Your concerns are dumb, stop being dumb". We reached a point where the press is basically advertising a company over another and no one calling out that (well, yes, I'll be called paranoid and such).

 

[Deleted member 12790]

Breh I have seen you in the past week use that fuck the sycophant media multiple times and basically say about a dev's game going to EGS 'oh I didn't give a shit about their game but fuck them anyways'

You gotta be better than that

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"Breh," the media like Jim Sterling is allowed to literally make topics entitled "Fuck Steam" and the moderation team doesn't bat an eye.

 

[neon_dream]

You are misremembering. I did say I didn't give a shit about their game (which was as true before the exclusivity agreement as after, although I might have put it differently in different circumstances), and I did say fuck Devolver, their publisher, because I expected better of them (my fault, admittedly). I didn't say fuck the developers.

I will also continue to say fuck the sycophant media as long as they continue to publish a smattering of arse-licking marketing regurgitation articles per week.
Because, frankly, that's unacceptable.

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Video games media coverage of Epic has been poor. They took up a narrative predicated on a fallacious factoid ("30% vs 12%"). Epic's game store was cast as a positive market disruption without a good factual analysis of the situation. Then some sites doubled down despite the growth and development of the story, handwaving away apologies for some significant issues with Epic's game store, usually just regurgitating Epic's PR clips without further critique.

In that time Epic has...
- told most indie developers to, basically, go fuck themselves
- outright stated they want to control digital distribution (i.e. limited/no 3rd party key selling) and prices
- tried to appease user criticism by allowing 3rd party selling on a very limited and disingenuous basis (humble's site only)
- pushed credit card process fees onto users
- pushed discovery costs onto developers
- continued to moneyhat exclusives just about to release on Steam
- locked out user usability options, like reviews and customer service
- basically shit on PC users telling them they don't know what's good for them
- was discovered to be stealing Steam user data

And Valve has...
- stopped one shitty game, which was never going to be approved for sale, from being approved for sale
- continued to expand and support Steam Link
- continued to develop and improve discoverability
- continued to significantly improve the user interface
- is working on dedicated servers for any game
- and more

I can recall several sites that regurgitated Epic PR points without much analysis. I can't think of many sites that covered any of the above concerns or issues with the Epic store with any sincerity. Meanwhile the coverage of Valve has mostly revolved around one shitty game that was never going to be approved.

I understand gaming news is, like any other news, driven by interest and titillation (dirty laundry), but it's worth pointing out how weak the coverage has been of the entire situation.

 

[Deleted member 42]

"Breh," the media like Jim Sterling is allowed to literally make topics entitled "Fuck Steam" and the moderation team doesn't bat an eye.

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Are you making fun of the way I talk, Krej

 

[BasilZero]

But I was told that Epic was looking out to help devs

 

[Deleted member 12790]

Are you making fun of the way I talk, Krej

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Could you actually take this topic seriously if you're going to call out a user's tone?

 

[Kilbane65]

This just goes to prove what I've been saying about the indie devs that decided to go to bat in favor of Epic's bullshit business practices: it's nothing more than a messed up case of "Fuck you, I got mine!".
That sort of curation will do wonders for those who got in, but in this day and age of so many more indie developers than we had 10 years ago, I think it's not an approach that takes this new reality into consideration.

 

[ThankDougie]

but at least they're pointed in the right direction for creators and users.

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I've said it once and I'll say it again: you're not pointed in the right direction for your users if your platform encourages the creation of hate groups, games about rape, and other content that demeans or encourages violence against your user base. This idea that Steam and Valve are somehow right about their no-curation policy is just wrong. It reeks of white male privilege.

edit: in case it's taken this way, let me add that I don't think the AAC+ developer is a racist/sexist or is being intentionally racist/sexist or anything like that. But this is how privilege works, often quietly and unintentionally, under cover of some larger subject matter.

 

[Deleted member 42]

Could you actually take this topic seriously?

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If you're going to insult me, I'm not gonna take the topic at all

It's 9:12 AM, I got other things to do besides get mocked on the Internet for how I talk

 

[GhostTrick]

Are you making fun of the way I talk, Krej

Click to shrink...

We love you. The only thing we make fun of is that ugly avatar of yours. :"""")

 

[Mass_Pincup]

[

Jeuxvideo.com, of course lol.
http://www.jeuxvideo.com/news/10206...pic-game-store-l-avis-de-panthaa-en-video.htm

Some great pieces for non-french readers:
"C'est donc aux joueurs de soutenir cette nouvelle boutique en ligne pour créer de la concurrence à Steam, et ses trop nombreux jeux. "
"It's up to the gamers to support this new online storefront to create competition against Steam and its too large number of games"

(One lovely tidbits in the video: There are too many Steam sales).

Click to shrink...

Didn't know that JVC fell to Gameblog standards.

 

[rtv190]

"Breh," the media like Jim Sterling is allowed to literally make topics entitled "Fuck Steam" and the moderation team doesn't bat an eye.

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that's because they're too busy fucking his wife

 

[Jawmuncher]

This just goes to prove what I've been saying about the indie devs that decided to go to bat in favor of Epic's bullshit business practices: it's nothing more than a messed up case of "Fuck you, I got mine!".
That sort of curation will do wonders for those who got in, but in this day and age of so many more indie developers than we had 10 years ago, I think it's not an approach that takes this new reality into consideration.

Click to shrink...

I definitely stand with my comment on there being too many indie devs in a sense. Which seems to be the elephant in the room with this conversation.

Since "fuck you I got mine" for devs who already don't need the help isn't doing much more than the battle Royale everyone is assumed to be in on steam.

 

[VariantX]

"It's not fair if you complain about it where your voice can be heard!"

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Seriously. Makes me wonder did anyone even play the game before rejecting it? Game is polished as games of that type get.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

It's 9:12 AM

Click to shrink...

 

[Jiffy Smooth]

I've said it once and I'll say it again: you're not pointed in the right direction for your users if your platform encourages the creation of hate groups, games about rape, and other content that demeans or encourages violence against your user base. This idea that Steam and Valve are somehow right about their no-curation policy is just wrong. It reeks of white male privilege.

Click to shrink...

This is very much whataboutism. No one has argued in favour of Valve's stupid Libertarian "everyone has the right to speak on our platform" policy when it's clearly allowing for hate speech, etc. But that seems rather unrelated to an innocuous indie game being ignored by Epic for "reasons".

Or, in other words, if Valve has to clean up a mess with one Rape Day (which, let's remember, was never actually for sale) for every countless hundreds of unproven indie games that sell on their store, while Epic "curates" and those indies are left out in the cold, which is more dev-friendly?

 

[Oneself]

Lol Epic, it's one of the best shooters I've played in the last 36 years. -_-

 

[Demacabre]

Epic looking out for the little dev again...

unless they have a publisher in which they are looking out for the publisher with the added cut and the moneyhat.

Which is most of the high profile exclusives on the EGS.

But this game, this one is crappy.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

I definitely stand with my comment on there being too many indie devs in a sense. Which seems to be the elephant in the room with this conversation.

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That's ultimately the problem. Too many indie game, too many people filling like their owed success because they made a great game.

Today, making a great game is only the first part of creating interest, in some genre it's not even the most important one.

 

[ThankDougie]

This is very much whataboutism. No one has argued in favour of Valve's stupid Libertarian "everyone has the right to speak on our platform" policy when it's clearly allowing for hate speech, etc. But that seems rather unrelated to an innocuous indie game being ignored by Epic for "reasons".

Click to shrink...

I'm not whatabout-ing at all. Much of what the AAC+ developer has to say makes sense to me and I have trouble taking direct issue with it. But he made a claim about Valve being pointed in the right direction where moderation is concerned. That's demonstrably false in a glaringly obvious way. Their inability to moderate is a major and important part of the discussion, not some footnote in a debate about what's better for developers and consumers. The way this impacts people matters, period. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

 

[Sean Mirrsen]

I've said it once and I'll say it again: you're not pointed in the right direction for your users if your platform encourages the creation of hate groups, games about rape, and other content that demeans or encourages violence against your user base. This idea that Steam and Valve are somehow right about their no-curation policy is just wrong. It reeks of white male privilege.

Click to shrink...

You can go onto Youtube, Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, any number of forums and social media, and make the same things happen.

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. I, for instance, have never seen any of the things you mentioned being on Steam. Am I supposed to vehemently deny their existence?

 

[TinfoilHatsROn]

that's because they're too busy fucking his wife

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What?

 

[Jiffy Smooth]

I'm not whatabout-ing at all. Much of what the AAC+ developer has to say makes sense to me and I have trouble taking direct issue with it. But he made a claim about Valve being pointed in the right direction where moderation is concerned. That's demonstrably false in a glaringly obvious way. Their inability to moderate is a major and important part of the discussion, not some footnote in a debate about what's better for developers and consumers. The way this impacts people matters, period. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

Click to shrink...

"Pointed in the right direction" is a different from claim from "has it all figured out"

 

[ThankDougie]

You can go onto Youtube, Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, any number of forums and social media, and make the same things happen.

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. I, for instance, have never seen any of the things you mentioned being on Steam. Am I supposed to vehemently deny their existence?

Click to shrink...

Where am I vehemently denying their existence? And where have I denied that any of that stuff takes place elsewhere? This isn't about Youtube, Reddit, Facebook, etc. That would be a different thread. Here we are talking about Steam and Steam has a problem with the way it manages its white nationalist, incel, and otherwise racist-sexist material. It seems to me that "no curation" is not a solution. I disagree with that aspect of the author's Twitter posts.

"Pointed in the right direction" is a different from claim from "has it all figured out"

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Agreed. Neither is true of Valve.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

"Pointed in the right direction" is a different from claim from "has it all figured out"

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that user is going out of his way to give the dev the most uncharatable read possible, especially when in multiple tweets they spelled out that there is problem's with the way valve does things. He's purposefully turning "pointed in the right direction" into "being ok with rape sims."

quote:

"None of what I'm saying here means I think Valve is perfect, or even particularly great at what they're doing now. Steam and discovery is a dense and complex problem that tbh I have no Idea how to solve"

Agreed. Neither is true of Valve.

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Valve has never said they are absolutely correct on everything. In fact, that seems to be their mantra, that beating against the waves isn't worth it.

 

[Deleted member 9305]

Steam: too little curation
EGS: too much curation

 

[Paz]

I've said it once and I'll say it again: you're not pointed in the right direction for your users if your platform encourages the creation of hate groups, games about rape, and other content that demeans or encourages violence against your user base. This idea that Steam and Valve are somehow right about their no-curation policy is just wrong. It reeks of white male privilege.

edit: in case it's taken this way, let me add that I don't think the AAC+ developer is a racist/sexist or is being intentionally racist/sexist or anything like that. But this is how privilege works, often quietly and unintentionally, under cover of some larger subject matter.

Click to shrink...

It's kinda beside the point, but I'm not white.

Also, literally in the same tweet as I said they were pointed in the right direction, I said this "None of what I'm saying here means I think Valve is perfect, or even particularly great at what they're doing now "

I think their approach to plenty of stuff has been bad, or even awful.

 

[Shengar]

that user is going out of his way to give the dev the most uncharatable read possible, especially when in multiple tweets they spelled out that there is problem's with the way valve does things. He's purposefully turning "pointed in the right direction" into "being ok with rape sims."

quote:

"None of what I'm saying here means I think Valve is perfect, or even particularly great at what they're doing now. Steam and discovery is a dense and complex problem that tbh I have no Idea how to solve"

Click to shrink...

Yeah I'm not even going to bother with them, as much as they ignore Valve's PR after Rape Day debacle.

 

[Mendrox]

Video games media coverage of Epic has been poor. They took up a narrative predicated on a fallacious factoid ("30% vs 12%"). Epic's game store was cast as a positive market disruption without a good factual analysis of the situation. Then some sites doubled down despite the growth and development of the story, handwaving away apologies for some significant issues with Epic's game store, usually just regurgitating Epic's PR clips without further critique.

In that time Epic has...
- told most indie developers to, basically, go fuck themselves
- outright stated they want to control digital distribution (i.e. limited/no 3rd party key selling) and prices
- tried to appease user criticism by allowing 3rd party selling on a very limited and disingenuous basis (humble's site only)
- pushed credit card process fees onto users
- pushed discovery costs onto developers
- continued to moneyhat exclusives just about to release on Steam
- locked out user usability options, like reviews and customer service
- basically shit on PC users telling them they don't know what's good for them
- was discovered to be stealing Steam user data

And Valve has...
- stopped one shitty game, which was never going to be approved for sale, from being approved for sale
- continued to expand and support Steam Link
- continued to develop and improve discoverability
- continued to significantly improve the user interface
- is working on dedicated servers for any game
- and more

I can recall several sites that regurgitated Epic PR points without much analysis. I can't think of many sites that covered any of the above concerns or issues with the Epic store with any sincerity. Meanwhile the coverage of Valve has mostly revolved around one shitty game that was never going to be approved.

I understand gaming news is, like any other news, driven by interest and titillation (dirty laundry), but it's worth pointing out how weak the coverage has been of the entire situation.

Click to shrink...

Thank you. Having it laid out like this I can't even tell why there are still people willingly wanting to support Epic Games even though they do all that shit.

 

[Deleted member 12790]

It's kinda beside the point, but I'm not white.

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Yeah, I didn't want to bring it up myself, but your name doesn't sound like a white person's name.

And I've seen you be critical of valve on twitter. I've even debated with you before over things.

 

[Jiffy Smooth]

Where am I vehemently denying their existence? And where have I denied that any of that stuff takes place elsewhere? This isn't about Youtube, Reddit, Facebook, etc. That would be a different thread. Here we are talking about Steam and Steam has a problem with the way it manages its white nationalist, incel, and otherwise racist-sexist material. It seems to me that "no curation" is not a solution. I disagree with that aspect of the author's Twitter posts.



Agreed. Neither is true of Valve.

Click to shrink...

Here's where everyone arguing in favour of more open submissions stands: "Valve should allow any game that's not hate speech on their store". No one wants that shit. We've seen from experience that going heavy-handed in the other direction never works out, though, and that's Epic's chosen solution. Valve have plenty of room for improvement, but in the meantime, hopeful and proven indie devs get the same opportunities as any given AAA studio, and that is the right direction.

 

[alr1ght]

That's what bothered me about Rami Ismail's response to Epic's practises. They are so selective, you can basically not get in if you're not already known or established. Doesn't even matter if your game is good. It goes against the "indie spirit" I like so much.

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The king of "Fuck you, got mine" for indie devs.

Have any indie devs been moneyhatted by EGS if they didn't have a "large" indie game in the past?

 

[eonden]

It's kinda beside the point, but I'm not white.

Also, literally in the same tweet as I said they were pointed in the right direction, I said this "None of what I'm saying here means I think Valve is perfect, or even particularly great at what they're doing now "

I think their approach to plenty of stuff has been bad, or even awful.

Click to shrink...

Anyone who says Steam is perfect has to be blind.

However, the "curation problem" has been a key issue of the evolution of Steam as a platform since 2009 and was mostly a dev pushed thing. Trying to go back to those "OG" times is, as you said, being blind.

 

[Eolz]

Just seen that jeuxvideo.com video, it's ridiculous...
It's nice that the vast majority of the comments share incomprehension at this. It's not like this website is a really pc centric website (canardpc is not impressed with EGS afaik), but it's the biggest in France anyway (which is sad, but meh).

 

[Deleted member 3294]

It's pretty clear that they haven't fully opened up their store yet. Right now the store mainly consists of games that are exclusive to it, certain other games from publishers who signed exclusivity deals, and free games. I imagine that unless a developer or publisher would have a new game that could be exclusive to their store, or if they were willing to put their game on the store for free, that right now it's incredibly unlikely for their game to get on the store. It's probably why they suggested the dev here to "get back to them in a year or something", since the store will be fully launched then.

That being said, with Epic's plans for curation being so unclear, with there not being clear rules for what they won't accept (just no "crappy games", whatever that includes), I can easily imagine stuff like this still happening when the store launches in full.

 

[elyetis]

Jeuxvideo.com, of course lol.
http://www.jeuxvideo.com/news/10206...pic-game-store-l-avis-de-panthaa-en-video.htm

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Holy f*** shit. I had to stop at 8:00, he just said that :
"it's pretty secret but Valve take between 30-40% of a game sale."
And then compare it to Epic 12%.
Ignore steam key sold outside of Steam, pretty much complain that if a game v1.0 is actually bad, people might ask a refund and a leave bad review leading to less sales.

 

[Deleted member 3208]

If you're going to insult me, I'm not gonna take the topic at all

It's 9:12 AM, I got other things to do besides get mocked on the Internet for how I talk

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We all love you Bronson. And your avatar too.

 

[ThankDougie]

It's kinda beside the point, but I'm not white.

Also, literally in the same tweet as I said they were pointed in the right direction, I said this "None of what I'm saying here means I think Valve is perfect, or even particularly great at what they're doing now "

I think their approach to plenty of stuff has been bad, or even awful.

Click to shrink...

I don't know if it's beside the point, but either way Valve still has a massively problematic platform on their hands. And I did notice that you qualified the statement. I don't think you or many of the other people who argue in Valve's favor here intend to promote sexism, sexual violence, etc. I get it, but the more I hear people say "this is the right way to do it," the less I see any mention of the specifics of Valve's bad or awful practices. They're quickly forgotten, and skin color is almost never mentioned. All I see is a bunch of canned vocabulary around the idea of being "pro-consumer" vs. "pro-developer."

I think things like race, gender, and sex should come up more often when discussing these topics, partially because I've seen it affect people I know and partially because I think it's always dangerous when capitalism erases these identities, intentionally or otherwise.

 

[Kilbane65]

I definitely stand with my comment on there being too many indie devs in a sense. Which seems to be the elephant in the room with this conversation.

Click to shrink...

Exactly, the reality changed:
There are way, WAY more indie developers in 2019 than what we had in 2009-11.
In a sense, Valve's approach/reaction to the 'Indie's Gold Rush' created an environment that allowed the PC indie dev scene to flourish and it adapted to that, for good and bad. Meaning that, despite of the merits of what Valve did, the PC gaming industry was shaped by it and reacted accordingly.
Now comes EPIC and decide to completely ignore this new reality of indie game development and "Hey let's do it like it's 2009!"
It's just miopic and completely alienating to a dev scene that already had to adapt to increased competition.

 

[Ge0force]

Assault Android Cactus is one of the best twin-stick shooters I've ever played. It's ridiculous that Epic doesn't allow it on their store.

This said, it is obvious that Epic's claims that they are doing this for the developers is complete nonsense. They are just bruteforcing themselves into pc gaming, by keeping games made by the most popular developers away from competing storefronts. Meanwhile, they aren't even trying to solve or evade Steam's most significant problems.

This whole Epic Store thing is just a huge mess. And I'm sad that journalists of popular game sites like PC Gamer and RPS keep defending Epic, using the most ridiculous arguments.

 

[ThankDougie]

Here's where everyone arguing in favour of more open submissions stands: "Valve should allow any game that's not hate speech on their store". No one wants that shit. We've seen from experience that going heavy-handed in the other direction never works out, though, and that's Epic's chosen solution. Valve have plenty of room for improvement, but in the meantime, hopeful and proven indie devs get the same opportunities as any given AAA studio, and that is the right direction.

Click to shrink...

Never works out? Playstation is doing fantastically without a ton of the shovelware you see on Steam and the Switch eShop.

I also think you're dreaming if you believe indie devs get the same opportunities as AAA studios. You see the very cream of the crop pop up because the press latches onto them or because there's positive word of mouth. But nothing is stopping that same phenomenon from happening for games that are on Itch.Io. So what gives?

Also, one huge problem with Steam's "anything goes" policy is that a lot of very good games get buried in the shit. It's not as good for devs as people imagine when you have to compete with literally everything Steam accepts. Which seems to be everything.

 

[Sean Mirrsen]

Their inability to moderate is a major and important part of the discussion, not some footnote in a debate about what's better for developers and consumers. The way this impacts people matters, period. Nothing happens in a vacuum.

Click to shrink...

A lack of preemptive curation is different from lack of oversight. Valve can no more moderate the entirety of Steam on their own, than the Reddit administration can police the entirety of Reddit. This means that moderation must be delegated - established administrators and moderators for each community - from that community, and reporting tools on the store. That way unsuitable content can still be found and removed, and order can be maintained, with the limited available Valve staff only stepping in when absolutely necessary. It's a system that works for social media, and it's a system that demonstrably works here, with that game being found and removed.

I would much prefer a system where any content can be submitted but some content can be removed due to users seeing it as problematic, to a system where all content is pre-moderated and only that which qualifies is allowed. It's both much more efficient, and lets content creators make regular content without worrying about arbitrary cutoffs for quality. Like, for instance, any messageboard works. In that regard, this "no curation" policy is superior to all feasible alternatives.

 

[Ge0force]

Never works out? Playstation is doing fantastically without a ton of the shovelware you see on Steam and the Switch eShop.

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Are you aware that most "unknown" indie games coming to Playstation are games that have been very successful on Steam before?

It's easy to keep shitting on Steams lake of curation. But meanwhile, NO other storefront (except for Discord) has even bothered to promote the hidden gems that weren't successful on Steam. This includes Epic, who is only moneyhatting (and currently even allowing) games from the most popular indies on Steam.

 

[Jiffy Smooth]

Never works out? Playstation is doing fantastically without a ton of the shovelware you see on Steam and the Switch eShop.

I also think you're dreaming if you believe indie devs get the same opportunities as AAA studios. You see the very cream of the crop pop up because the press latches onto them or because there's positive word of mouth. But nothing is stopping that same phenomenon from happening for games that are on Itch.Io. So what gives?

Also, one huge problem with Steam's "anything goes" policy is that a lot of very good games get buried in the shit. It's not as good for devs as people imagine when you have to compete with literally everything Steam accepts. Which seems to be everything.

Click to shrink...

Define "shovelware" in a way that isn't just "I think this game looks bad".

And clearly the cream of the crop get more coverage - that's what the games press and word of mouth are there for. But diving into Steam's weekly deals reveals an enormous number of games that neither one of us have ever heard of, and I'm sure some would write off as shovelware, but are right there to be bought alongside everything else. It's no one's fault that they don't get more coverage (not the customers, not Steam's, and not the press - no one can promote everything at once) but it's still more potential sales than they'd ever see from a heavily-gated platform.

 

[BringBackSonics]

COMPETITION!! Its great for the Devs and the consumers!

We see you Epic for what you are.

 

[Stone Ocean]

I don't know if it's beside the point, but either way Valve still has a massively problematic platform on their hands. And I did notice that you qualified the statement. I don't think you or many of the other people who argue in Valve's favor here intend to promote sexism, sexual violence, etc. I get it, but the more I hear people say "this is the right way to do it," the less I see any mention of the specifics of Valve's bad or awful practices. They're quickly forgotten, and skin color is almost never mentioned. All I see is a bunch of canned vocabulary around the idea of being "pro-consumer" vs. "pro-developer."

I think things like race, gender, and sex should come up more often when discussing these topics, partially because I've seen it affect people I know and partially because I think it's always dangerous when capitalism erases these identities, intentionally or otherwise.

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I understand your point and I fully agree that hate games shouldn't be on Steam. But I don't view those as a curation issue and more of a sanitation issue.

Never works out? Playstation is doing fantastically without a ton of the shovelware you see on Steam and the Switch eShop.

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PSN has a decent amount of shovelware too. Reminder that Sony approved Life of the Black Tiger for release and also put out a fucking trailer for it in their official channel.

Also, one huge problem with Steam's "anything goes" policy is that a lot of very good games get buried in the shit. It's not as good for devs as people imagine when you have to compete with literally everything Steam accepts. Which seems to be everything.

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No they don't. Nobody would even be aware of asset flips if Youtubers didn't use them for clicks or were actively looking for them.

Good games get buried by other legit games. The barrier of entry to game development has never been lower. Open the top sellers page on Steam and try to find a single shitty asset flip anywhere near the top.