Assassin's Creed and female representation

klauskpm · Apr 30, 2020

If anything, as a man, I prefer to play games with woman protagonists because they tend to be way more interesting. They bring me new ways to see things. And since they are not the norm, they tend to have a deeper character building.

It looks like a comparison to heroes who fight for justice VS antiheroes. While the first goes most of the time in a shallow and overused direction of justice, the other one normally has more depth in why they act like that.

Representation matters a lot, and with diversity we get richer games. I would love to have a solo female protag in AC: Valhalla.

endlessflood · Apr 30, 2020

Lord Vatek said:
Anyone who says "historical accuracy!" to defend a lack of representation is a sexist clown.

I disagree. Historical accuracy isn't an on/off switch, it's a spectrum, and different games will fall in different places. What is perfectly reasonable for one game might be out of place in another. It depends on the game.

If we were looking at WW2 games for example, consider Brothers In Arms, The Saboteur, and Wolfenstein. What is perfectly reasonable in Wolfenstein might be out of place in The Saboteur. And things that might be fine in The Saboteur might be out of place in Brothers In Arms. It's always going to depend on the game: some will strive for more accuracy, some for less. They're all perfectly reasonable choices, but they require different approaches.

It's silly to think that you could take some things from Wolfenstein and put them into Brothers In Arms without destroying what that game is trying to achieve. That's not a slight on Brothers In Arms, and it's not a slight on Wolfenstein. They're just different games, trying to do different things, and they require different approaches.

Sylmaron · Apr 30, 2020

Cyborg said:
Playing with male or female is absolute of no importance for me. Just give people a choice its a game you can play with whoever you want.

The idiocy of getting banned for promoting choice of gender. Never change Era.

Deleted member 4976 · Apr 30, 2020

Sylmaron said:
The idiocy of getting banned for promoting choice of gender. Never change Era.

No shit that's a ban. Neither he nor you are apparently capable of reading the OP which deals with that point.

Hey Please · Apr 30, 2020

Sylmaron said:
The idiocy of getting banned for promoting choice of gender. Never change Era.

Way to go with misrepresentation. Not the best hill to die on.

thepenguin55 · Apr 30, 2020

Nevermind

Kinan · Apr 30, 2020

I enjoyed plaing Kassandra in Odyssey, but why, oh, why almost every woman I met wanted to have sex with me? I think there were only two or three male options for romance, including obviously bi Alkibiades. And, honestly, for most of those women friendship would have been way more natural option (as a reaction to a female protagonist).

Morrigan · Apr 30, 2020

DrScissorsMD said:
I'll be honest, I don't understand the point of view that rather than giving a choice of which gender to choose, people want a female-only choice. [...] I just don't understand it and I'm happy to have it explained to me.

...Read the OP? It's all explained there. Or read my post on page 1.

80s Old School said:
I have a question, and I don't know if it will get me banned or not but whatever. [...] There is a fear on this board that if you have an opnion that is counter to any social justice issue, it's grounds for a ban. I hope my question doesn't prove this to be true.

Christ, guys, stop being so fragile. You won't get banned for disagreeing politely with the OP. This thread has 250+ replies and it's hardly a graveyard. All you have to do is not be dismissive with "I don't care/stop complaining" drive-bys that don't engage with the topic at all or, you know, not defend sexist talking points like "women warriors didn't really exist in history" (which isn't even true anyway).

It's not that difficult not to be a dismissive, sexist jerk. If you're not sure of what to say, sit back and listen to what women are saying.

goodretina said:
What male options were there in Odyssey? It seemed like it was easier to be a lesbian icon.

AC: Odyssey had 10 female romantic options and 5 male ones, all of which were trash. It wasn't equal at all to be honest.

AntiMacro said:
If you want representation to be fair, demanding they swing the pendulum over to the other extreme and stop having male leads doesn't seem to be moving toward that goal at all.

"Demanding" huh... how dare we want to have women's stories and experiences actually be represented in some form. You make it sound so darn unreasonable.

Ramble said:
It's just my opinion but In the actual game it's even more obvious. I felt that the entire script was written for Alexios and then a few bits shoehorned in later for Kassandra. The vast majority of dialog and situations come off very... masculine. Yes women can be masculine and there's no problem with that, I'm just saying it felt like to me it was clearly written for a male character and they just stuffed Kassandra in.

The armor sets look weird on Kassandra and great on Alexios.

There are 10 female romance options and 6 male romance options. The vast majority of flirting/romance dialog is "stuff a dude would say".

You're not wrong.

whatsarobot said:
Blocking users for saying this sort of stuff really cheapens the conversation on this board. I don't agree with the poster but refusing to engage with their ideas only cheapens the dialogue, creates an echo chamber, and makes this place look like it can't handle real engagement.

No. Era is not a place where we allow sexist viewpoints to flourish, which is what that post was. Women are exposed to those constantly and in every facet of our lives, we don't need more of that here too, anymore than PoC don't need to entertain racism apologia as an "alternate viewpoint". Our FAQ makes it very clear.

Once again: plenty of people disagreed with the OP. Don't be a sexist jerk about it and you'll be fine. It's actually not difficult at all, I promise!

Pirate Bae · Apr 30, 2020

Windrunner said:
A series that in its opening game featured assassins who can survive jumping off buildings and have a magical mind control orb is believable as part of a "historical" game but female assassins?

I'm sorry that's a bridge too far for me.

I'm dying

Deleted member 1003 · Apr 30, 2020

Pirate Bae said:
I'm dying

It's pretty damn sad. Ubisoft are cowards for not making a female lead the main in marketing. Screw the man babies, it will still sell.

Gotdatmoney · Apr 30, 2020

Sylmaron said:
The idiocy of getting banned for promoting choice of gender. Never change Era.

That post isn't meant to promote choice. It's meant to downplay people's desires for more women leads who are written like women. Saying you don't care whether you play as a male or female isn't promoting or saying anything. The majority of games feature males. The amount of female only leads are minimal. You almost always play as a dude if you want. This thread is a call to let women have what dudes already have.

Its fucking unbelievable how reductive you're being.

Hey Please · Apr 30, 2020

Lo and behold, case in point, Ubisoft is at it again:

Cinematic trailer:

A tweet of the image of a model of the female version:

Keep propagating that skewed status quo promotion and expecting a pat on the back for featuring a woman. Good god.

FormatCompatible · Apr 30, 2020

I can't fucking believe some people still throw around the "historical accuracy" fallacy to justify the lack of representation in games. And for goddamn Assassin's Creed no less.

ClearMetal · Apr 30, 2020

You should know you're fucking up as a studio when the choice of gender for the protagonist has to be confirmed through a third party, in this case Eurogamer. Because God forbid you give both protagonists equal representation in the trailer, fucking cowards.

texhnolyze · Apr 30, 2020

Hey Please said:
Lo and behold, case in point, Ubisoft is at it again:

Cinematic trailer:

A tweet of the image of a model of the female version:

Keep propagating that skewed status quo promotion and expecting a pat on the back for featuring a woman. Good god.

And their excuse is "female protagonist is in a different marketing phase", what?

But that doesn't really matter as the main cover and cinematics feature the male protagonist.

mael · Apr 30, 2020

Windrunner said:
A series that in its opening game featured assassins who can survive jumping off buildings and have a magical mind control orb is believable as part of a "historical" game but female assassins?

I'm sorry that's a bridge too far for me.

These idiots even squandered the French Revolution when the one real world assassin we know of this period was a woman.
They just don't give a shit about historical accuracy but they will claim otherwise because it's expedient.

Jedi2016 · Apr 30, 2020

FormatCompatible said:
I can't fucking believe some people still throw around the "historical accuracy" fallacy to justify the lack of representation in games. And for goddamn Assassin's Creed no less.

The fallacy of historical accuracy falls apart when they only want it applied to the inclusion of women or people of color (see Kingdom Come Deliverance). Try to throw in any other historical details and suddenly "it's just a game". They'll be perfectly fine with all kinds of anachronisms because it's what Hollywood shows them it was "really" like, but show them a shieldmaiden (which we know factually were quite real) and suddenly it's the end of the world.

Rodrigues solitaire · Apr 30, 2020

mael said:
These idiots even squandered the French Revolution when the one real world assassin we know of this period was a woman.
They just don't give a shit about historical accuracy but they will claim otherwise because it's expedient.

Are you talking about the developers here? I'm confused

thediamondage · Apr 30, 2020

Gonna be an interesting year to see how sales stack up of The Last of Us 2 and Assassins Creed Valhalla and Cyberpunk 2077, three different variations of a single player story driven game with different lead characters (two being "you choose") and how audiences will react from a sales perspective. I imagine all will rank about the same critically so its really going to come down to people's buying habits.

What people do is far more important than what they say.

80s Old School · Apr 30, 2020

Morrigan said:
...Read the OP? It's all explained there. Or read my post on page 1.

Christ, guys, stop being so fragile. You won't get banned for disagreeing politely with the OP. This thread has 250+ replies and it's hardly a graveyard. All you have to do is not be dismissive with "I don't care/stop complaining" drive-bys that don't engage with the topic at all or, you know, not defend sexist talking points like "women warriors didn't really exist in history" (which isn't even true anyway).

It's not that difficult not to be a dismissive, sexist jerk. If you're not sure of what to say, sit back and listen to what women are saying.

AC: Odyssey had 10 female romantic options and 5 male ones, all of which were trash. It wasn't equal at all to be honest.

"Demanding" huh... how dare we want to have women's stories and experiences actually be represented in some form. You make it sound so darn unreasonable.

You're not wrong.

No. Era is not a place where we allow sexist viewpoints to flourish, which is what that post was. Women are exposed to those constantly and in every facet of our lives, we don't need more of that here too, anymore than PoC don't need to entertain racism apologia as an "alternate viewpoint". Our FAQ makes it very clear.

Once again: plenty of people disagreed with the OP. Don't be a sexist jerk about it and you'll be fine. It's actually not difficult at all, I promise!

Nah I know you mean well but sometimes if you don't disagree politely and overexplain your point of view you can get banned. While others can say fuck you or not be as polite and nothing happenes. I was of the opinion that if I got banned for my question then I guess I don't need to be on this board. I'd also like to point out how no one addressed my question. It's cool to want more representation, it's cool to want it in your favorite game, but not being there or there in the way you want it dosent mean there is an issue or a problem to address. I think you're better of finding it in the many places where people are already telling passionate stories. You want more representation? Then more people will have to be in places of power that match your preferences.

mael · Apr 30, 2020

Rodrigues solitaire said:
Are you talking about the developers here? I'm confused

I didn't see gamers rise against Ubisoft asking for historical accuracy and I certainly didn't see Ubisoft explain this omission as well.
so kinda both really.
Especially the gamer kind that harps on historical accuracy though, they're gigantic idiots.

FormatCompatible · Apr 30, 2020

Jedi2016 said:
The fallacy of historical accuracy falls apart when they only want it applied to the inclusion of women or people of color (see Kingdom Come Deliverance). Try to throw in any other historical details and suddenly "it's just a game". They'll be perfectly fine with all kinds of anachronisms because it's what Hollywood shows them it was "really" like, but show them a shieldmaiden (which we know factually were quite real) and suddenly it's the end of the world.

Exactly, as a example when that garbage movie Gods of Egypt was coming out a bunch of people complained about the lack of PoC in the main cast (fucking Gerard Butler was one of the leads) and I remember seeing some of the same idiots who love to use the "historical accuracy" excuse going "well it's just a fantasy movie, they want this to appeal to everyone".

Deleted member 25448 · Apr 30, 2020

Shame female Eivor is getting no love :( Basically reminds me of the Odyssey marketing with Alexios despite Kassandra being the canon character.

Jedi2016 · Apr 30, 2020

Someone pointed out in one of the other threads, and I looked it up to verify:

Eivor is a girl's name.

So either, like Kassandra, they intend the female version to be "canon", and it's the marketing team just pandering to the dudebro demographic, or they just picked a random cool-sounding name out of a hat. Hopefully the former, but probably the latter, in that it saves time and storage not having to record NPC dialog with mutiple names, and counting on most of their audience (outside of Scandinavia) not knowing the difference.

Deleted member 13101 · Apr 30, 2020

People are raving over the trailer, since it looks much like recent viking media and medieval games. Even the cover looks very "familiar". Marketing knows what it's doing.

Among the missed opportunities for representation in this franchise is in the modern-day character. For the past two games (and upcoming one) you're playing as "Layla", and that's great. She's her own person. But once hooked up to the animus, the "subject" character (the character on the box cover art) completely takes over. How interesting would it be if the animus representation (as an imperfect representation of DNA-coded memories) was shaped by Layla and incorporated her identity, personality, preferences, moods, etc., to the point where you'd be playing through Layla's point of view - rather than just being susceptible to the "bleeding effect" in modern-day.

Raziel · Apr 30, 2020

I strongly disagree. Games are essentially role plays and I think the companies should give a choice rather than excluding male or female just for the sake of representation.

If a male wants to play as a male.. that is not sexist.

Kinthey · Apr 30, 2020

Wonderment said:
People are raving over the trailer, since it looks much like recent viking media and medieval games. Even the cover looks very "familiar". Marketing knows what it's doing.

Among the missed opportunities for representation in this franchise is in the modern-day character. For the past two games (and upcoming one) you're playing as "Layla", and that's great. She's her own person. But once hooked up to the animus, the "subject" character (the character on the box cover art) completely takes over. How interesting would it be if the animus representation (as an imperfect representation of DNA-coded memories) was shaped by Layla and incorporated her identity, personality, preferences, moods, etc., to the point where you'd be playing through Layla's point of view - rather than just being susceptible to the "bleeding effect" in modern-day.

I don't really like it when the game reminds the player that it's all just a simulation. Kind of takes the stakes out of the story. Having Layla as copilot would only increase that tenfold.

Also, Ubisoft has somehow done their damndest to make Layla pretty unlikable

HStallion · Apr 30, 2020

Sylmaron said:
The idiocy of getting banned for promoting choice of gender. Never change Era.

Choice is not a must nor does it inherently make for a better game.

Kwigo · Apr 30, 2020

Lagherta is the best character in the Vikings series, I'd rather play a great shieldmaiden like her than another beefy white manly man.

Also my GF is always excited when I tell her that any game has at least the possibility to play as a female MC, so if it's important to women, it should be important to us white cis men.

And fuck anyone crying over games that only have female MCs, it's not like you don't have a thousand other games with white male MCs to play.

Natiko · Apr 30, 2020

I can definitely understand wanting a more tailored narrative around a female lead. That said, if they went female only for a game then swapped to male only the next you know they would get slammed. I can see why they would just try and tailor to both (even if executed poorly, which is especially the case with this series and the marketing).

HStallion · Apr 30, 2020

Raziel said:
I strongly disagree. Games are essentially role plays and I think the companies should give a choice rather than excluding male or female just for the sake of representation.

If a male wants to play as a male.. that is not sexist.

Choice can make a game worse if for arbitrary reasons. The Last of Us would have never had the impact it did if choice was a given in many aspects of the game.

Hey Please · Apr 30, 2020

texhnolyze said:
And their excuse is "female protagonist is in a different marketing phase", what?

But that doesn't really matter as the main cover and cinematics feature the male protagonist.

Honestly this is sad. They can't even lead with a woman in a game that "gives the players the choice of gender". Arguments that are par for the course generally end up being surmised as:

It is a business decision
A second class citizen is a citizen nonetheless

It is pretty clear to see where women are on the totem pole of representation.

Rackham · Apr 30, 2020

I need my historical accuracy in a series of games about the Apple of Eden influencing history

SnazzyNaz · Apr 30, 2020

I agree it'd have been nice for their marketing to lead with the female protagonist but I wouldn't want that to be the only choice in-game. Gay men as leads are scarce enough as is. I'd be nice to keep that representation.

TheChrisGlass · Apr 30, 2020

I just pre-ordered the Collector's Edition of the game.

This is the first year the statue with the Collector's edition has the female on it. In fact, I think it's the first ever female statue. Odyssey didn't have Kassandra.

Baccus · Apr 30, 2020

HStallion said:
Choice can make a game worse if for arbitrary reasons. The Last of Us would have never had the impact it did if choice was a given in many aspects of the game.

It's a case by case basis as it depends on the story written.

FancyPants · Apr 30, 2020

Cyborg said:
Playing with male or female is absolute of no importance for me. Just give people a choice its a game you can play with whoever you want.

Eh? Why banned for saying this?

MindofKB · Apr 30, 2020

Edit: Nevermind

Lyng · Apr 30, 2020

The viking era would have been a perfect setting for a focused story around a female warrior.
especially if they tried to go as historically accurate as possible it could be very interesting.

Hey Please · Apr 30, 2020

MindofKB said:
Edit: Nevermind

That's a reasonable hypothesis but when a franchise like AC has around 6 months of development and marketing left, they can surely find a way to assuage the fears of men who would only play as men via promotion strategy over the said period of time.

Subterfuge should not be needed when the market is as diverse as it is today. Power flows from the top and so let's stop blaming consumers for this shit show.

Deleted member 43671 · Apr 30, 2020

Kingsora said:
I am going to say something that is not going to make me popular. But why is a female protagonist needed? In a lot of cases it makes more sense to choose a man for these kind of games.

First of all, a tough bearded viking is probably going to sell better, that just how it is.

But let's be honest. When you look back at history most of the fighters were probably at least for 95% men so it's also logical often that you choose a man for a action/fighting game that takes place in history. And yes I know there were also a lot of female Viking fighters, but pretty sure most of them were still men.
[

Kingsora said:

Ok and a woman can't play a video game as a man? I also don't think as a man that it was a problem to play with Aloy or Lara Croft.

I am not saying that there is something wrong with a female main character. Should there be more representation in video games? Probably yes. But for these kind of historical games it just make so much more sense to choose a male protagonist.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

AntiMacro said:
I don't know if the answer to years of females being forced to play male leads in order to play games is to force males to play females. Odyssey and the ability to choose what you wanted to be represented by seems like a lot better path forward. 1/3 of gamers - myself included - played as Kassandra, and that seems like a positive step forward. If you want representation to be fair, demanding they swing the pendulum over to the other extreme and stop having male leads doesn't seem to be moving toward that goal at all.

John Harker said:
that's not entirely true.
These aren't "political" conversation, they are quantitative surveys. You take a game concept and ask thousands of people, and that data helps influence decisions. In mass market entertainment, it's actually considered NOT political to make decisions based on quant results. Because you are designing entertainment for large demographics, find them and ask them preferences.

It's more considered "political" (usually we say "making a statement") if you deliberately choose to go against the data you have. Example if 80% of your target player base says they only want to play as a male and youintentionally decide to only offer a female, you're making a statement. Not the other way around.

thayd high risk mass entertainment.
Many projects are more artistic and don't data collect so you get more vartiety butnrisks are usually lower

So every innovative design feature that the audience didn't ask for is "political"? Adorno might agree!

Lausebub · Apr 30, 2020

FancyPants said:
Eh? Why banned for saying this?

Sounds like that person hasn't read the OP.

chromatic9 · Apr 30, 2020

Yes Kassandra could've been the only protag in AC Odyssey, to me that's was Odyssey is and perhaps one of the best and executed characters I've played. AC Valhalla might have the better character being male this time, we'll see.

Some have missed out on the brilliantly crafted Kassandra, even just technologically it's a very complete human character feeling in every way for a video game and a huge one at that with no letup a hundred hours in.

Dice · Apr 30, 2020

Raziel said:
If a male wants to play as a male.. that is not sexist.

Stop thinking just about you and consider me (♀) playing a man 90% of the time.

A guy wanting to play as a guy, right? Can you imagine a girl might want to play as a girl?

iamsirjoshua · Apr 30, 2020

I would very much like to see an increased emphasis on making both the female and male characters in this series have equal importance. I loved playing as Kassandra in Odyssey, but it was clear that her character felt shoe-horned in compared to Alexios, and despite the claim that her story was "canon", Alexios was still front and center in both marketing and game design.

Edit: I had gone on a bit about perceptions of excessive moderation/moderators being rude. Decided it wasn't worth it to detract from the thread topic.

riotous · Apr 30, 2020

edit: Nevermind

Hey Please · Apr 30, 2020

Raziel said:
I strongly disagree. Games are essentially role plays and I think the companies should give a choice rather than excluding male or female just for the sake of representation.

If a male wants to play as a male.. that is not sexist.

"For the sake of representation" ah yes, "diversity for the sake of diversity" argument.

The apathy is palpable at times. Makes me wonder where/are you and your kin when almost every game featured white cis gendered straight men and even now when games are predominantly headed by male protagonists.

Redhood · Apr 30, 2020

I have a question about Assassins creed unity Co-op missions. Whenever you played them were you always Arno and the other players were with different faces and gear? I know the game had gear customisations but could you also set the faces or other things?

reclaimerzzzzz · Apr 30, 2020

Redhood said:
I have a question about Assassins creed unity Co-op missions. Whenever you played them were you always Arno and the other players were with different faces and gear? I know the game had gear customisations but could you also set the faces or other things?

No, everyone was Arno in their respective games with their respective outfits and gear, the faces were random/generic because you almost never see them. A similar method was used in the Watch Dogs games where you, the player, were always Aidan/Marcus but the other players had entirely different outfits and faces.

Redhood · Apr 30, 2020

reclaimerzzzzz said:
No, everyone was Arno in their respective games with their respective outfits and gear, the faces were random/generic because you almost never see them. A similar method was used in the Watch Dogs games where you, the player, were always Aidan/Marcus but the other players had entirely different outfits and faces.

Thank you! I never got a chance to do those missions.

They borked the response when they said animations would take a lot of time. They simply could had said everyone plays as Arno. I am glad they messed up cause we got amazing women protags as Evie and Kassandra.

I wish they would had released player choice of protagonist for first time stat. I am sure Kassandra would be higher.

It's a shame about marketing though. If the next media (gameplay) for Valhalla we see does not contain the female version Ubisoft absolutely deserves to be raked over the coals. They cannot have representation and choose to promote only the male version.

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