Assassin's Creed and female representation

[Lausebub]

I think we need to look at historical context before we jump gun blazing because our feelings were hurt. The existence of shield-maidens is recorded in very few instances and when you make a game about Vikings and their historical conquests we need look closer to history and the Norse traditions. Norse society were male dominated and in make sense to have a male protagonist in this historical context. (More about Norse society here http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/society/text/women.htm)

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Why is historical accuracy more important then representation???? Especialy in a video game, where I as a lone soldier can kill thousands of people, have mystical powers and fight mystical beings and if the enemy is Level 50 my sword is suddenly useless.

I love history, listen to tons of history podcasts and watch a lot of history videos and the historical accuracy in almost all media is pretty bad.
Cavalerry just charges right down the middle into the enemy, everyone is using swords instead of spear and so on and so forth.

So now explain to me why playing as a woman, especialy when OP even acknowledged the sexism during those times and wants that to be part of the story,
is historical inaccurat?

And thsi game will be full of historical inaccuracys anyways.

 

[W4cko]

Hmmm I really like female protagonist in games but for RPG's with love options i really like choice. The avatar represents thé player.

 

[Makoto Yuki]

So she was canon and yet...

who are you trying to convince Ubi? XD

In their defence, while the covers had Alexios, the promotional footage/screenshot had Kassandra, at least with the DLCs (if my memory serves correctly).

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Kassandra is way cooler anyways.

This game is one of the best ways to handle Female/Male character choice that I have played in a while.

 

[nacimento]

I think two choices are fine. After they started I think it works. I do find it weird that AC is always singled out even though it is probably the best AAA series regarding representation.

 

[DOBERMAN INC]

Completely agree but I am happy if there is at least a character choice.

 

[Issen]

But you don't understand, it's not sexism, it's just that women are biologically incapable of developing the muscle mass necessary to do anything of relevance.

Spoiler

OBVIOUS sarcasm, of course. I still find it bewildering that people make this "argument" in earnest, let alone in the chat for the AC Valhalla teaser livestream. Like, holy shit. It's probably why Ubi is reluctant to do as the OP says, too.

I agree OP, a mainline AC game that actually focuses on a female protagonist would be pretty cool. That said,

Spoiler: AC Origins spoilers

I never liked Aya as a character because she goes completely off the fucking rails by the end, pretty much becoming a zealous lunatic

so I'd rather have a female AC protagonist that's NOT like Aya.

You know who was FUCKING AWESOME though? Elise. And the fact that she's a woman does actually play into her backstory and upbringing. Honestly the whole "selectable protagonist" thing would have fit incredibly well in Unity as the change would be more than just a gender swap (like Odyssey) but a completely unique character in her own right, with her own distinct story and motivations. Besides, Alexios/Kassandra didn't really have all that much depth to their character. I don't think not having Alexios playable, by itself, would have made Kassandra much better.

I would LOVE an AC game that pulls off a main female lead as well as they pulled off Elise.

 

[Altairre]

I think we need to look at historical context before we jump gun blazing because our feelings were hurt. The existence of shield-maidens is recorded in very few instances and when you make a game about Vikings and their historical conquests we need look closer to history and the Norse traditions. Norse society were male dominated and in make sense to have a male protagonist in this historical context. (More about Norse society here http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/society/text/women.htm)

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But wouldn't that make even more interesting to play as a woman? Even if you care about historical accuracy in a series that has embraced mythology and the supernatural more and more as it went on (to its benefit in my eyes), if there is precedent for shield-maidens then I think it would be a fascinating perspective to explore. We probably will get to choose between a male and female protagonist anyway, but like other posters in this thread have pointed out, that sort of limits how you can write these characters. You can't really explore what it meant being a shield-maiden in that time because characters will have to react in the same or at least a very similar way than they would to the male counterpart. Letting you chose the gender is fine but it does not and cannot substitute for a true female lead.

Hmmm I really like female protagonist in games but for RPG's with love options i really like choice. The avatar represents thé player.

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But does it really though in the AC games? Even now that they've gone heavier on the RPG elements the protagonists are still very much their own characters. They have a set backstory that usually influences the events of the game heavily (both in Odyssey and Origins it was all about family to some degree), they already have established relationships and while you could sort of influence their decisions in Odyssey it still is more about the tone of conversations. You cannot radically alter their personality. It's why, in Odyssey, I tended to make choices not based on what I would do but what I think the character would do.

 

[Hey Please]

Btw, why is there suddenly talk of the game being unqualified to host a female protagonist alone now that it features RPG elements, especially given that people are playing as named characters and have "canon" attached to game?

Aloy and Geralt come to mind in this regard.

 

[Cyborg]

Playing with male or female is absolute of no importance for me. Just give people a choice its a game you can play with whoever you want.

 

[Odeko]

Why is historical accuracy more important then representation???? Especialy in a video game, where I as a lone soldier can kill thousands of people, have mystical powers and fight mystical beings and if the enemy is Level 50 my sword is suddenly useless.

I love history, listen to tons of history podcasts and watch a lot of history videos and the historical accuracy in almost all media is pretty bad.
Cavalerry just charges right down the middle into the enemy, everyone is using swords instead of spear and so on and so forth.

So now explain to me why playing as a woman, especialy when OP even acknowledged the sexism during those times and wants that to be part of the story,
is historical inaccurat?

And thsi game will be full of historical inaccuracys anyways.

Click to shrink...

The "games are always going to be inaccurate so why even bother trying" argument doesn't really work for me when this series clearly spends immense amounts of time trying to craft the world as realistically as possible. The last two games even had an explicitly educational mode that turned the world into a virtual museum, which Ubisoft marketed at schools.

I agree that doesn't mean you can't have a female protagonist, but she shouldn't just be a model-swap like Kassandra — it would be far more interesting, impactful, and insightful if she actually faced some of the challenges a woman at the time would have faced. And I definitely don't agree with how they made the entire world more inclusive by making sure all the historically male-dominated professions and positions had an equal number of women NPCs taking part. That just feels like trying to scrub history of all the uncomfortable aspects and pretend they never existed.

 

[Khasim]

As someone who works in marketing, the marketing department tends not to make the final call on what gender the main playable character should be in a game :) If ANY marketing department has that much power, that company has a whole host of problems it needs to solve.

What a marketing team will do is provide market research, comparable products, and other factoids that the project owners will use to make the final decision. A marketer might say that a game starring a male protagonist would be easier to market for reasons X, Y, and Z, but they should never be the ones actually pulling the trigger on the decision.

Blaming the mythological marketing team for these decisions is shirking the blame from the people who ACTUALLY made the decision on these projects. And when it involves games being designed too much from the male perspective, we need to focus on the people that actually have final say on these decisions.

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I may have phrased my post better, obviously marketing does not make the final call, but as you said, they provide the data and basically tell the decision-makers "look, if you do this, you may lose X customers, but if you don't, they'll still buy the product".

We all have to remember that all AAA games are funded by corporations, and they only care about making as much money as possible. Being too progressive (especially if you're being arrogant about it) has shown to negatively impact the reception of media, and by extension possibly sales, whether we like it or not. Obviously you can't just prove people didn't play game X because a woman was the main character, but when you see people spewing their vile shit all over social media and the game underperforms, it's a simple correlation, and it's easier to change design principles than to focus on the actual reasons, like the game being bad.

Suddenly changing all video game protagonists to women/minorities is not going to solve the problem of bigotry, it's just going to hurt people working on those games, since they're the ones who will lose their jobs if the game underperforms.

A lot of people, myself included, don't care about the race/gender of the protagonists and only want a well-written character, but there are very vocal minorities who act like it's a dealbreaker if they can't roleplay themselves. What we're seeing right now is corporations trying to figure out how to convince as many people as possible from both those groups to buy their game. Ubisoft, for a corporation, is really not that bad.

 

[ket]

I think that it's telling that Ubisoft still hasn't made a mainline AC game with a sole female protagonist and, in AC Odyssey, they made Kassandra the canon protagonist yet hardly featured her in the marketing (lol)

 

[Patapuf]

I may have phrased my post better, obviously marketing does not make the final call, but as you said, they provide the data and basically tell the decision-makers "look, if you do this, you may lose X customers, but if you don't, they'll still buy the product".

We all have to remember that all AAA games are funded by corporations, and they only care about making as much money as possible. Being too progressive (especially if you're being arrogant about it) has shown to negatively impact the reception of media, and by extension possibly sales, whether we like it or not. Obviously you can't just prove people didn't play game X because a woman was the main character, but when you see people spewing their vile shit all over social media and the game underperforms, it's a simple correlation, and it's easier to change design principles than to focus on the actual reasons, like the game being bad.

Suddenly changing all video game protagonists to women/minorities is not going to solve the problem of bigotry, it's just going to hurt people working on those games, since they're the ones who will lose their jobs if the game underperforms.

A lot of people, myself included, don't care about the race/gender of the protagonists and only want a well-written character, but there are very vocal minorities who act like it's a dealbreaker if they can't roleplay themselves. What we're seeing right now is corporations trying to figure out how to convince as many people as possible from both those groups to buy their game. Ubisoft, for a corporation, is really not that bad.

Click to shrink...

I really doubt a female led AC would sell that much less. As much as people like to point out reactionary misogynists in social media, the recent influx of women as protagonists in AAA games hasn't really negatively impacted sales.

However, offering the gender choice caters to a maximum of people - which is why they do it.

 

[Lausebub]

The "games are always going to be inaccurate so why even bother trying" argument doesn't really work for me when this series clearly spends immense amounts of time trying to craft the world as realistically as possible. The last two games even had an explicitly educational mode that turned the world into a virtual museum, which Ubisoft marketed at schools.

I agree that doesn't mean you can't have a female protagonist, but she shouldn't just be a model-swap like Kassandra — it would be far more interesting, impactful, and insightful if she actually faced some of the challenges a woman at the time would have faced. And I definitely don't agree with how they made the entire world more inclusive by making sure all the historically male-dominated professions and positions had an equal number of women NPCs taking part. That just feels like trying to scrub history of all the uncomfortable aspects and pretend they never existed.

Click to shrink...

Thats exactly what OP asked for and why they want a game with just a woman as the protagonist. About the scrubing of history, most women won't forgett,
how male centric the past was, when the present is still male centric and you will be hard pressed to find people who would think there was no sexism in ancient grece because they played Odyssey.

If people want to learn exactly how sexist everything was and still is, they can play the history mode or watch read other sources, not sure why women and basicly every minority in most movies games etc.

And again OP asked fora game where you can only play a woman, so sexism can actually be adressed in the game.

 

[HStallion]

These topics always bring out the stupidest fucking people with the stupidest fucking points and arguments. I'd love to see an AC game with a female lead and I see no reason why that's not possible in a game with time traveling thanks to a magic machine that reads your ancestors lives and memories from your DNA where you deal with god like beings, ancient super technology and do a thousand different alternative history takes. But no a woman lead character is a bridge too far for the highly realistic AC series.

 

[Deleted member 64517]

But you don't understand, it's not sexism, it's just that women are biologically incapable of developing the muscle mass necessary to do anything of relevance.

Spoiler

OBVIOUS sarcasm, of course. I still find it bewildering that people make this "argument" in earnest, let alone in the chat for the AC Valhalla teaser livestream. Like, holy shit. It's probably why Ubi is reluctant to do as the OP says, too.

I agree OP, a mainline AC game that actually focuses on a female protagonist would be pretty cool. That said,

Spoiler: AC Origins spoilers

I never liked Aya as a character because she goes completely off the fucking rails by the end, pretty much becoming a zealous lunatic

so I'd rather have a female AC protagonist that's NOT like Aya.

You know who was FUCKING AWESOME though? Elise. And the fact that she's a woman does actually play into her backstory and upbringing. Honestly the whole "selectable protagonist" thing would have fit incredibly well in Unity as the change would be more than just a gender swap (like Odyssey) but a completely unique character in her own right, with her own distinct story and motivations. Besides, Alexios/Kassandra didn't really have all that much depth to their character. I don't think not having Alexios playable, by itself, would have made Kassandra much better.

I would LOVE an AC game that pulls off a main female lead as well as they pulled off Elise.

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Elise was one of the best female characters I've seen in a game, was such a shame we couldn't get an expansion with her.

 

[VegiHam]

that's not entirely true.
These aren't "political" conversation, they are quantitative surveys. You take a game concept and ask thousands of people, and that data helps influence decisions. In mass market entertainment, it's actually considered NOT political to make decisions based on quant results. Because you are designing entertainment for large demographics, find them and ask them preferences.

It's more considered "political" (usually we say "making a statement") if you deliberately choose to go against the data you have. Example if 80% of your target player base says they only want to play as a male and youintentionally decide to only offer a female, you're making a statement. Not the other way around.

thayd high risk mass entertainment.
Many projects are more artistic and don't data collect so you get more vartiety butnrisks are usually lower

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So projects deliberately choosee to represent nobody but straight men because of the pressures of hetronormative society? Very cool and apolitical, yup. Certainly no statement being made there. It's not like reinforcing the preconceptions of straight boys is a political statement or anything it's just good clean risk aversion.

 

[Hey Please]

The members from the kingdom of incels, sexism and misogyny generally account for the loudest voices on social media. However, the salient question is what percentage of consumer base are they?

It has always been wrong and cowardly to invoke "it's a business decision" to sideline women and/or PoCs (especially, and I can't stress this fucking enough, Women of Colour) but it is indubitably far more egregious to propagate the perception that the aforementioned group of degenerates either are or speak for a notable segment of the market without which a major AAA title may incur great financial loss.

Firstly, if it were true, imagine what that says about the consumers of medium?

Secondly, from a cold and calculative PoV, does the data (pertaining to sales of female only leads in new IP) reflect that potential revenue was lost by having a female lead alone?

Thirdly, this is a vicious cycle of dogmatic feedback loop. Using the threat of potential financial repercussion to disallow representation is cowardice. And as such, it is all the more reason for progressives to speak up because corporations are never ahead of or even on the curve when it comes societal issues. And yet they will happily exploit every inch of the pop-culture when it is feasible to do so.

 

[Ramble]

Yes, I would greatly enjoy playing as an actual female assassin, who is the main character, who they clearly designed the story around and isn't just an afterthought. Someone with the level of detail and personality of Aya. Is Aya a likable character? Many would say no, but that's the point. The point is she has a personality. Altaïr was not exactly all sunshine and rainbows either. Edward Kenway could be a bit of a jerk. The main character doesn't have to be likable all of the time.

Now on to my controversial opinion!

I always found "Kassandra is the canon assassin!" to be utter baloney. Outside of the official novelization - which how many AC fans read the novels? - and a few DLC shots she's nowhere in the marketing. It's all Alexios.

It's just my opinion but In the actual game it's even more obvious. I felt that the entire script was written for Alexios and then a few bits shoehorned in later for Kassandra. The vast majority of dialog and situations come off very... masculine. Yes women can be masculine and there's no problem with that, I'm just saying it felt like to me it was clearly written for a male character and they just stuffed Kassandra in.

The armor sets look weird on Kassandra and great on Alexios.

There are 10 female romance options and 6 male romance options. The vast majority of flirting/romance dialog is "stuff a dude would say".

Honestly, I thought Layla Hassan was a more believable character than Kassandra.

 

[ket]

I don't understand the point about a female AC protagonist needing to confront the sexism of whichever time period an AC game happens to take place in.

The AC games have almost always presented a sanitized version of their time periods' relevant prejudices. Edward Kenway in AC4 was a conveniently tolerant white guy in the 1700s who was fine with having a Black crewmate and fellow Assassin. In AC3, topics such as slavery and the racism of 18th century America were barely touched upon despite playing as a biracial Native American man. In Syndicate, Evie pretty much never encounters or deals with the sexism that existed in Victoria-era England and there's even a trans supporting character who none of the main cast take issue with.

And then there's Odyssey, where Kassandra is rarely discriminated against because of her gender.

So yeah, I don't get why a sole female lead suddenly needs to deal with sexism when the entire series has rarely dealt with the prejudice/discrimination of their time periods.

 

[Curufinwe]

But you don't understand, it's not sexism, it's just that women are biologically incapable of developing the muscle mass necessary to do anything of relevance.

Spoiler

OBVIOUS sarcasm, of course. I still find it bewildering that people make this "argument" in earnest, let alone in the chat for the AC Valhalla teaser livestream. Like, holy shit. It's probably why Ubi is reluctant to do as the OP says, too.

I agree OP, a mainline AC game that actually focuses on a female protagonist would be pretty cool. That said,

Spoiler: AC Origins spoilers

I never liked Aya as a character because she goes completely off the fucking rails by the end, pretty much becoming a zealous lunatic

so I'd rather have a female AC protagonist that's NOT like Aya.

You know who was FUCKING AWESOME though? Elise. And the fact that she's a woman does actually play into her backstory and upbringing. Honestly the whole "selectable protagonist" thing would have fit incredibly well in Unity as the change would be more than just a gender swap (like Odyssey) but a completely unique character in her own right, with her own distinct story and motivations. Besides, Alexios/Kassandra didn't really have all that much depth to their character. I don't think not having Alexios playable, by itself, would have made Kassandra much better.

I would LOVE an AC game that pulls off a main female lead as well as they pulled off Elise.

Click to shrink...

they did pick your protagonist in Syndicate outside of story missions where you had to be either the brother or sister, and it worked well.

 

[Ramble]

Firstly, if it were true, imagine what that says about the consumers of medium?

Secondly, from a cold and calculative PoV, does the data (pertaining to sales of female only leads in new IP) reflect that potential revenue was lost by having a female lead alone?

Thirdly, this is a vicious cycle of dogmatic feedback loop. Using the threat of potential financial repercussion to disallow representation is cowardice. And as such, it is all the more reason for progressives to speak up because corporations are never ahead of or even on the curve when it comes societal issues. And yet they will happily exploit every inch of the pop-culture when it is feasible to do so.

Click to shrink...

I think it's hard to say because off the top of my head I can only think of two franchises this gen that had female main characters:

Tomb Raider and Horizon: Zero Dawn.

I recently went back to replay Tomb Raider Definitive Edition and the amount of obvious tit and ass shots is embarrassing. What's worse is Lara's completely absurd sexualized moaning and breathless cries every single time she is "hurt". It put me off finishing my replay of the series.

Horizon ZD goes in the complete opposite direction and makes Aloy totally asexual with zero explanation. Multiple characters flirt with her or show interest and... nothing. I thought it was bizarre. If she is asexual, they could have addressed it in a respectful way in the game. But I suspect it was for another reason:

It's obvious to me that both were carefully crafted to not offend the presumed straight male player.

 

[Cripterion]

It's a non issue as long as they allow both to be played, they went the extra mile for Odyssey so that's a plus in my book. My playthrough is with Alexios and my daughter is actually playing it with Kassandra. They should follow suit with AC : Valhalla.

Also main char in present story is Layla (though I'm at a point in the game where I haven't taken control of her so not sure to what extent she's playable)

 

[Bing-Bong]

Was Ubisoft afraid of alienating sexist gamer bros?

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I'm 100% sure that the problem lays here. We talk about how Horizon Zero: Dawn sold pretty well having a female protagonist and all, but i'm tired of comments about guys that would have prefered a male main character. Some of those comments even sound dissapointed about having to play as a female :/.

And let's not forget how there's still guys out there that won't play a game protagonized by a woman. Or that use "HiSToriCaL AccURacY" as an excuse to rage about a game having a female protagonist. I like to think that they're not that many men thinking like this out there, but they definitely still exist, as far as i've seen.

 

[Nardy_19]

When did Assassins Creed a series about travelling back into your ancestral memories to change history so you could fight against an ancient holy order that was fighting with your holy order who turn out to be people from the moon before aliens invaded to make new people or some other bullshit, when did thay series jump the shark? From the very first game. Come the fuck on, its always been nonsense and the second game made that explicitly clear.

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Correct me, as i only played the first and then last 3........isn't that explained in the "modern" bits of the game, ie there's machine that sends you back in time.

 

[Hey Please]

I think it's hard to say because off the top of my head I can only think of two franchises this gen that had female main characters:

Tomb Raider and Horizon: Zero Dawn.

I recently went back to replay Tomb Raider Definitive Edition and the amount of obvious tit and ass shots is embarrassing. What's worse is Lara's completely absurd sexualized moaning and breathless cries every single time she is "hurt". It put me off finishing my replay of the series.

Horizon ZD goes in the complete opposite direction and makes Aloy totally asexual with zero explanation. Multiple characters flirt with her or show interest and... nothing. I thought it was bizarre. If she is asexual, they could have addressed it in a respectful way in the game. But I suspect it was for another reason:

It's obvious to me that both were carefully crafted to not offend the presumed straight male player.

Click to shrink...

With regards to HZD (and I hope I don't come across someone making pure excuses):

I would disagree that Aloy "is" asexual. I felt like she was giving off serious bi-curious vibes but you are right that the devs did NOT go anywhere with the romance side of things. While there is good backstory justification of why Aloy is untrusting of people, it would honestly be a rather mediocre excuse.

I can only speculate and agree with you that the reason is more or less tied to not making straight men feel uncomfortable with the notion that Aloy may be getting laid with a guy as opposed with a girl whereupon a many straight men can simply either live vicariously through Aloy or simply dissociate themselves and fantasize about lesbians scissoring.

All that said, it is another reason for GG to blaze the trail and give attempt straight romance attempt with sincerity. In the day and age where numerous men openly talk about eating ass, going down on their partners (fuck DJ Khaled), pop-culture popularizing getting pegged and a plethora of social media commentary from guys all from all over the sexual spectrum admiring other guys in not so subtle ways (hello Imgur), the reasons and fears to squarely making straight relationship (while playing as a female lead) the pivot for economic success and failure comes off as archaic and misplaced.

 

[Launchpad]

Are people really going with Historical Accuracy in this franchise where you fight literal Gods? Make the main character female, Kassandra was amazing.

 

[Hey Please]

It's a non issue as long as they allow both to be played, they went the extra mile for Odyssey so that's a plus in my book. My playthrough is with Alexios and my daughter is actually playing it with Kassandra. They should follow suit with AC : Valhalla.

Also main char in present story is Layla (though I'm at a point in the game where I haven't taken control of her so not sure to what extent she's playable)

Click to shrink...

Except it is a half measure that does not address the core issues being raised in the OP as well as the spirit of the discussion.

 

[Dictator]

Let me get this out of the way to head off the expected rebuttals: Ubisoft's willingness to put men of colour front and centre in their AAA mainline games is awesome (especially given the first game came out in 2007 when gaming was much less diverse than it is now) and I will never deny how important that is. I love Bayek in particular, an amazingly written and acted character.

HOWEVER.

With how well they've done with representation of people of colour and, to a lesser extent, LGBT folks (I say lesser extent because Jacob's bisexuality is handled pretty awfully in that it was only confirmed in an interview, aka the ol' JK Rowling tactic, and let's be honest Odyssey's romances were absolutely cringe-worthy), Ubisoft's treatment of women sticks out even further. I won't claim the Assassin's Creed games are sexist: they have multitudes of awesome female characters, many WOC or LGBT: Aya, Kassandra, Evie, Elise, Aveline, Shao Jun, etc. So it's increasingly jarring that with eleven mainline AC entries (1, 2, Brotherhood, Revelations, III, IV, Rogue, Unity, Syndicate, Origins and Odyssey) the number of MAINLINE FLAGSHIP games with a single female protagonist comes to a grand total of......... zero.

"But Odyssey and probably Valhalla let you choose your protagonist's gender!" Yeah, sure, okay, that's cool and all. But it's not representation. Representation you can opt out of/choose to ignore entirely isn't representation. Ubisoft themselves have stated that 2/3 of Odyssey players chose Alexios, despite Kassandra being the "canon" protagonist. If Kassandra was canon, why not make her the sole character in the first place? Was Ubisoft afraid of alienating sexist gamer bros? Why go to the effort of voicing and mocapping two different characters when one would have done just fine AND been an important step forward in representation? Did they think a female-led Assassin's Creed wouldn't sell? Horizon: Zero Dawn has proven beyond a doubt that female-led games (open-world RPGs, no less) do sell as long as they're accessible (i.e. on a popular platform) and well-marketed.

Additionally, a selectable protagonist isn't representation because to avoid a ridiculous amount of work, it necessitates "gender-neutral" writing, and writing that is "gender-neutral" is actually just male-centric. Let's consider Odyssey specifically. Ancient Greece outside of Sparta was kind of hideously sexist, yet Kassandra's gender is never remarked upon, even when it really should be: For example, women competing in the Olympics wasn't just illegal, it was punishable by death - and you even get a sidequest dealing with that very subject... WHILE PLAYING AS KASSANDRA, A WOMAN WHO COMPETED IN THE OLYMPICS AND NO ONE SAID BOO. It breaks immersion completely and makes no sense. At the same time, Greece has a number of important, revered mythological and religious figures who are women, so the intersection of that and everyday sexism would have added a fascinating element to Kassandra's story.

I'm not saying I want Kassandra to have been treated like shit, called a bitch and a whore and threatened with rape every five seconds. However, considering that AC does tackle social issues, often with the subtlety of a sledgehammer (Syndicate's tagline was literally "Oppression Must End"), it seems extremely weird that her gender is never even remarked upon. She could have been an Atalanta-like figure, overcoming sexism and being badass despite being shit on by society. And that's where the "male-centric" writing complaint comes in: having your gender ignored entirely is a luxury only people who aren't oppressed because of their gender (i.e. cis men) are afforded. In that way, playing Kassandra doesn't accurately represent the female experience. "It's a power fantasy!" Sure, but you know who else is a power fantasy? Aloy. Just like Kassandra, Aloy is strong, smart, pretty, gets hit on by almost everyone she meets, and is cooler than everyone around her. I love her for it! And Aloy's gender is kind of really important in how it shapes her story and how the world around her reacts to her. Kassandra may be "canon", so why does it feel like the game was written for Alexios, and then she was hastily shoved in for diversity points?

"So you're saying Assassin's Creed can never have a male protagonist again?" (Yes, this is something I've seen people say when women talk about their desire for a single female protagonist). No. I'm saying it would be nice, after ELEVEN STRAIGHT GAMES WHERE YOU CAN PLAY A DUDE, to have one teeny weeny measly little game with a single female protagonist and to be represented in a mainline AAA game in a major franchise.

"We don't even know anything about Valhalla!" True. Maybe I'll be delightfully surprised and the beardy dude in the livestream art was just a big ol' misdirect. But somehow I doubt it. And yeah, guess what, I am, and reserve the right to remain, fucking disappointed :/

Click to shrink...

good OP -
one thing that I think may come up with your mentioning that the side quests ignore social/historical realities. That is definitely true with the Olympics example, but at the same time the game is picking and choosing its historical/social realities just as arbitrarily for gameplay reasons, for reasons of marketing, consumer research, etc. The game is probably about a power fantasy being enabled regardless of which character you choose and just letting you avatar its blank slate through the entire game.

I would definitely prefer a game that made the choice of male or female protagonist have a greater impact on the role playing or mission aspects, but I do wonder at what point the developer would have to draw the line in the sand for socio-historical realities changing the gameplay. I am not sure how they would balance it off the top of my head. I (not me, but a theoretical player) would want to power fantasy Cassandra and be doing all this cool stuff, but it might get in the way of me having a power fantasy if we ground a number of scenes or gameplay scenarios in social/historical realities (like the olympics example).

 

[Issen]

they did pick your protagonist in Syndicate outside of story missions where you had to be either the brother or sister, and it worked well.

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I skipped Syndicate. Ironically enough, it's because I dislike Jacob's characterization so much. At least in the beginning, no clue how his character evolves. But he seems more thug than assassin and I would much rather have played only as Evie.

 

[whatsarobot]

I am going to say something that is not going to make me popular. But why is a female protagonist needed? In a lot of cases it makes more sense to choose a man for these kind of games.

First of all, a tough bearded viking is probably going to sell better, that just how it is.

But let's be honest. When you look back at history most of the fighters were probably at least for 95% men so it's also logical often that you choose a man for a action/fighting game that takes place in history. And yes I know there were also a lot of female Viking fighters, but pretty sure most of them were still men.

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Blocking users for saying this sort of stuff really cheapens the conversation on this board. I don't agree with the poster but refusing to engage with their ideas only cheapens the dialogue, creates an echo chamber, and makes this place look like it can't handle real engagement.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

A female only AC main character would be cool. I'd definitely support them doing that. The current blank slate stuff they use now is cool too though. I understand that since we live in a gendered world interactions will be coloured by that but in the same notion I also appreciate that. I'm not a woman so I cant speak for them but a comparison I can make is even though I want more black protagonists, I don't necessarily want the games dialogue to consistently reflect discrimination towards black people.

It would make for more accurate writing as a whole but I also appreciate just being allowed to exist in a game world and not have to be reminded that you're the other.

I can only assume Ubi wont do a female only mainline AC due to marketing. I dont have any data but I doubt it really would hamper sales.

 

[Persephone]

Blocking users for saying this sort of stuff really cheapens the conversation on this board. I don't agree with the poster but refusing to engage with their ideas only cheapens the dialogue, creates an echo chamber, and makes this place look like it can't handle real engagement.

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Or maybe us women are tired of being bombarded with this nonsense day in and day out and don't always have the patience to hold someone's hand and explain why sexism is bad, actually.

 

[Hey Please]

Blocking users for saying this sort of stuff really cheapens the conversation on this board. I don't agree with the poster but refusing to engage with their ideas only cheapens the dialogue, creates an echo chamber, and makes this place look like it can't handle real engagement.

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I don't think this place needs to entertain deliberately sexist status quo talking points as legitimate good faith arguments worth debating.

 

[Landford]

I think it's hard to say because off the top of my head I can only think of two franchises this gen that had female main characters:

Tomb Raider and Horizon: Zero Dawn.

I recently went back to replay Tomb Raider Definitive Edition and the amount of obvious tit and ass shots is embarrassing. What's worse is Lara's completely absurd sexualized moaning and breathless cries every single time she is "hurt". It put me off finishing my replay of the series.

Horizon ZD goes in the complete opposite direction and makes Aloy totally asexual with zero explanation. Multiple characters flirt with her or show interest and... nothing. I thought it was bizarre. If she is asexual, they could have addressed it in a respectful way in the game. But I suspect it was for another reason:

It's obvious to me that both were carefully crafted to not offend the presumed straight male player.

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The reason Aloy is like that is specifically to not ruffle feathers with male gamers. Thats why most female protagonists in gaming are either gay or dont show interest in anyone at all. Because men can still oggle gay women, but not if the protagonist is flirting with guys.

There is very few defined, straight women leading games that actually romance men.

 

[Deleted member 203]

Blocking users for saying this sort of stuff really cheapens the conversation on this board. I don't agree with the poster but refusing to engage with their ideas only cheapens the dialogue, creates an echo chamber, and makes this place look like it can't handle real engagement.

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you think having to rebut the same small handful of tired old talking points leads to more interesting, intelligent conversations? If they start with "why is a female protagonist needed" they clearly have not thought more than 5 seconds about this topic and probably haven't even read the OP since it doesn't engage with any of the OP's points. It's not a good faith reply.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Blocking users for saying this sort of stuff really cheapens the conversation on this board. I don't agree with the poster but refusing to engage with their ideas only cheapens the dialogue, creates an echo chamber, and makes this place look like it can't handle real engagement.

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Because it's dumb and just running counter to the issue at hand. It's not an echo chamber. It's just a dude who put 0 effort into engaging the actual topic at hand.

AC already does have men as the default.

95% of it's fighters are already dudes.

Gaming already says that the protagonist really should be a dude.

When someone asks for a female main character and you say "why can't the protagonist just a be man" this is the equivalent of someone asking for more LGBTQ characters in games and you going "I dont get why the character cant just be straight. Most people are straight". Like what the fuck are you contributing to the discussion besides deciding it shouldn't happen?

If gaming was a 50/50 split down the middle of male to female protagonists no one would be asking this shit. And we're talking about video games. People wrestle lions amd jump off 10 story buildings in this shit. Who the fuck cares about accuracy?

 

[Verchod]

I find it strange that people are that bothered what the character is. I just assume that the designers pick a character to suit the story.

They should just drive forward with whoever that want as a character. The people who are really interested in the game will buy it.

 

[whatsarobot]

Or maybe us women are tired of being bombarded with this nonsense day in and day out and don't always have the patience to hold someone's hand and explain why sexism is bad, actually.

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There's a whole thread of people who disagree with the banned poster, but the idea of banning him for simply stating the question seems unreasonable. Perhaps if he's shit posting after people have responded, but it's a fair question to ask why Ubisoft should do a female only protag when 2/3 of players picked male. To be clear I don't like that players chose male protags, but if I were investing tens of millions of dollars it would be difficult to justify alienating that fanbase on moral principles.

Perhaps I just expect less of multi-billion dollar corporations. I expect almost zero ethical courage from them, and found male and female selection to be a pretty reasonable middle ground.

 

[Hey Please]

I find it strange that people are that bothered what the character is. I just assume that the designers pick a character to suit the story.

They should just drive forward with whoever that want as a character. The people who are really interested in the game will buy it.

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So, what prevents designers to write a story that suits a female character/protagonist in a franchise that has predominantly seen "stories suited for male characters"?

 

[Gotdatmoney]

I find it strange that people are that bothered what the character is. I just assume that the designers pick a character to suit the story.

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You think the prevalence of white dudes in games is simply to suit the story?

They should just drive forward with whoever that want as a character. The people who are really interested in the game will buy it.

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They're already doing this and the result is that it's always a guy.

Are you male or female?

 

[Kinthey]

The reason Aloy is like that is specifically to not ruffle feathers with male gamers. Thats why most female protagonists in gaming are either gay or dont show interest in anyone at all. Because men can still oggle gay women, but not if the protagonist is flirting with guys.

There is very few defined, straight women leading games that actually romance men.

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On the other hand, there is also the whole idea that a strong woman doesn't need a man. I remember seeing people bothered by Wonder Woman having a love interest in her movie. And meanwhile is Captain Marvel one of the very few Marvel movies that doesn't have a romance plot.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

Odyssey was the best option imo.

Have two preset characters and let people choose what they want to play.

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Yeah. I don't think one has to be excluded just because other games in the past have excluded.

 

[Ramble]

With regards to HZD (and I hope I don't come across someone making pure excuses):

I would disagree that Aloy "is" asexual. I felt like she was giving off serious bi-curious vibes but you are right that the devs did NOT go anywhere with the romance side of things. While there is good backstory justification of why Aloy is untrusting of people, it would honestly be a rather mediocre excuse.

I can only speculate and agree with you that the reason is more or less tied to not making straight men feel uncomfortable with the notion that Aloy may be getting laid with a guy as opposed with a girl whereupon a many straight men can simply either live vicariously through Aloy or simply dissociate themselves and fantasize about lesbians scissoring.

All that said, it is another reason for GG to blaze the trail and give attempt straight romance attempt with sincerity. In the day and age where numerous men openly talk about eating ass, going down on their partners (fuck DJ Khaled), pop-culture popularizing getting pegged and a plethora of social media commentary from guys all from all over the sexual spectrum admiring other guys in not so subtle ways (hello Imgur), the reasons and fears to squarely making straight relationship (while playing as a female lead) the pivot for economic success and failure comes off as archaic and misplaced.

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Thanks for saying what I was trying to say. I feel devs are not going to show a heterosexual romance from a woman's perspective.

The reason Aloy is like that is specifically to not ruffle feathers with male gamers. Thats why most female protagonists in gaming are either gay or dont show interest in anyone at all. Because men can still oggle gay women, but not if the protagonist is flirting with guys.

There is very few defined, straight women leading games that actually romance men.

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Yep, and I doubt that's going to change.

My wish is if a game is going to be story-driven and do male and female main characters they do more than write the dialog for the male character and have the female voice actor read the same lines. I know this has been the standard since Commander Shepard in Mass Effect 1 but it's been 13 years.

And it's not that expensive to have a female writer on staff writing lines for the female main character, especially if you are going to do romances. Paying for additional billable hours for the female voice actors isn't that expensive relative to the overall budget of a AAA video game in the year 2020. Having an animator sync the model to the voice actor's lines, etc.... it still isn't that expensive relative to the giant budgets these games have.

I'm well aware the process of having an actual unique female main character is more involved than that but I'm tired of this half-assed crap.

I thought Kassandra was a cheap attempt and if I'm being honest all the praise Ubi gets for including her makes me roll my eyes. They did the bare minimum, and the fact that it's so noteworthy should be an embarrassment to the entire industry.

ETA: I think everyone loves Kassandra because the voice actor did a fantastic job, so kudos to her.

 

[Wulfram]

I think its legitimate for AC to switch to a more RPG type series with more emphasis on player choice, and for part of that to be choice as to protagonist gender. But if they switch back to set protagonists I certainly think a female protagonist should be first in line, and they could certainly could stand to include some more gender specific dialogue than Odyssey does.

I don't think there are any historical settings that truly couldn't incorporate a female protagonist, particularly since they're assassins, not like members of the regular army or something.

 

[Hey Please]

There's a whole thread of people who disagree with the banned poster, but the idea of banning him for simply stating the question seems unreasonable. Perhaps if he's shit posting after people have responded, but it's a fair question to ask why Ubisoft should do a female only protag when 2/3 of players picked male.

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I wonder if that had something to do with the status quo of expectations and the fact that majority of the promotion for the game featured Alexios.....

To be clear I don't like that players chose male protags, but if I were investing tens of millions of dollars it would be difficult to justify alienating that fanbase on moral principles.

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Ah, "alienating fanbase on moral principles" argument. Makes me wonder if Ubisoft did a comprehensive data mining on the "userbase" of AC games to ascertain their demographics and their morality and forgoing featuring a female only lead in a mainline AC game based on those factors.

Perhaps I just expect less of multi-billion dollar corporations. I expect almost zero ethical courage from them, and found male and female selection to be a pretty reasonable middle ground.

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Perhaps that is why this criticism thread exists.......

Man, for a progressive forum championing rights and representation, it really rustles the jimmies of some people to give women their fair share of representation without having them being able to be "optionally" sidelined.

 

[Landford]

On the other hand, there is also the whole idea that a strong woman doesn't need a man. I remember seeing people bothered by Wonder Woman having a love interest in her movie. And meanwhile is Captain Marvel one of the very few Marvel movies that doesn't have a romance plot.

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I agree with the sentiment. I think we need some kind of "antidote" regarding female representation in gaming that goes in the complete oposite of what we got in the last 30 years (Bikini clad, with insane proportions and whose sole purpose is to be a prize and adore the main player), but at some point we need to start normalizing women as just people.

Thats why I really like how Ubisoft handles women in their most recent games. You have your military commanders, agents, badass elite warriors that need no men, but you also have farmers, craftsmen, scholars, academics, leaders, politicians. With regards to Odyssey, for example, since that game is an insane bloat of a mess regarding content, you will find women doing everything in their fantasy greek society.

I fully agree with the director with their vision of not berating the player if they choose Kassandra. If they went that route, it would get tiring really quick, and the people who would be most pleased with it would be the incel crowd since the women in the game would be in their "place" in their sick mentality.

I honestly dont give a fuck to "historical acurracy" since what it usually means is a carte blanche to be degrading women and minorities in settings. Off topic a bit, but Its so refreshing in media like Battlestar Galactica, Expanse, where you see women in all walks of life doing all kinds of jobs and positions of leadership and there isnt a hint of "Shes so good that she got the job even being a woman." Compare this vision to something like "Westworld", where there are tons of "Women who need no men" who are all powerful but walk around in heels and use form fitting dresses while fighting in slow motion.

 

[Uthred]

I don't think it's ever been about changing history though has it? You're reliving history.

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You may be correct the last one I played was 2 so its been a while. My main point still stands, its always been a load of bollocks.

 

[BabyShams]

I would much rather have a well written specific female protagonist than a choice where your gender makes no difference because they need to write for both. Gender plays a part in someone's character, and that element was mostly lost in Odyssey because it wouldn't be practical to write two different characters.

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I feel it depends. In a game like KOTOR or Mass Effect having that option to self insert or just roleplay is great, and really adds to replay value and at the time were great stories with great characters, just not really your character. So it's great having a choice.

With AC game being so bloated I don't ever see myself replaying one, I choose Kassandra in Odyssey even though I'm a guy because it was a better character design and the VA was better IMO. I don't think the character would have been better written had it been one gender and without choice. I don't think Bayek was written all that better, or Conner, or Kenway. Only Ezio was probably better because he got 3 games. I think because of the open world bloat style of these games well written playable characters with details are just not going to be a thing, so I would rather have the choice for a playable character and then for representations sake flesh out side characters for that.

If the AC main characters were written better then I could see the argument about wanting a sole female protagonist. With how they have been done, give people the choice.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Perhaps that is why this criticism thread exists.......

Man, for a progressive forum championing rights and representation, it really rustles the jimmies of some people to give women their fair share of representation without having them being able to be "optionally" sidelined.

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The forum is only as progressive as the rules and limits the moderation and administration enforces. (They do a great job imo) The users here however aren't inherently any better or worse imo.

I don't even necessarily mind if someone wants to challenge stuff if they bring out well reasoned and documented arguments. But the last few posts have been shit posts.

"Alienating males fans on principle".

That's a shit post as far as I'm concerned.