• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Manu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,151
Buenos Aires, Argentina
In games like Horizon or the newest Tomb Raider trilogy, why are characters spoiling the puzzle solutions before you can figure them out? I understand the help being there for users who are stuck, but sometimes they just say what you're supposed to do right away. Is it intentional?
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,058
Generally speaking, games are developed on PC using PC monitors with people sitting quite near the screens. It can be rather simple to overlook something like this in the beginning and middle parts of a project, only to be noticed too late when it may be tricker to change and add functionality.

That makes sense. I guess I'm just surprised that it continues to be an issue but maybe not enough people have made a stink about it? Especially with how many companies are saying they're committed to accessibility it just feels egregious.
 
OP
OP
Farlander

Farlander

Game Designer
Verified
Sep 29, 2021
332
That makes sense. I guess I'm just surprised that it continues to be an issue but maybe not enough people have made a stink about it? Especially with how many companies are saying they're committed to accessibility it just feels egregious.

I've said this in another post, time pressure can lead to people not considering the TV/monitor difference.
 

fenners

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,857
Apologies if that has been asked before, but why are so many games being released with tiny text in their UI - for people that sit about 6 ft away from their TVs (mine is 65 in, for reference), there's still some borderline unreadable stuff. Black Desert in particular is so bad about this, but I've seen it in all sorts of games like Ghostwire: Tokyo, Soulcalibur VI, etc.

Because the average developer is playing the game on a PC monitor on their desk and the text/UI looks fine.
 

Window

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,283
Cool thread. I like your YouTube review system btw.

How does the process to conceptualise a game system actually work? Are systems described, heavily documented and role played, like say in a pen and paper rpg way first? To what level of granularity are you thinking of player choices and incentives for decisions at this stage? How much of a role does psychology, behaviour science play in this (if any)?
 

-Tetsuo-

Unlimited Capacity
Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,575
Why can't graphics be better while also being faster, also of course AI
 

Kapote

Member
Jul 3, 2019
586
+100000. Keep yourself safe out there. <3
I think a lot about Charles Randall's (now sadly deleted; captured here) twitter thread about this some years ago and how impactful this can be both on devs and on conversations like this one, so thanks for starting this for folks!

Hi! Not a dev but a researcher in game studies and there's a lot of interesting work on this, particularly at the intersection of technical and professional writing studies and game studies. Cody Reimer has a really great chapter on League of Legends and interplay between reddit users and LoL devs, and Luke Thominet has done great work on open dev communities, tracking what kinds of feedback gets kicked up the chain and what gets... I'll generously say less engagement. If anyone is interested in reading perspectives from that side, there's some great work, and Reimer is also host of a podcast called Game Studies Review in which he and co-host Alex Layne worked through one of Thominet's pieces. I'm happy to pull full citations if anyone's interested but can't google this stuff up.

There's also a research collective focused on Discord now that I expect will be looking to study these phenomenon in dedicated and official servers.

I'm in the middle of a project on industry pathways right now so a lot of this is fresh in my mind, so I figured I'd drop it in the thread in case anyone was curious about how this stuff is viewed through academic lenses!
Thanks a lot for the answer, I will definitely look into those :D
 

SwampBastard

The Fallen
Nov 1, 2017
11,028
As a game developer, do you feel that you are generally more or less tolerant of other games' flaws when you play them? Or does it just depend on the nature of the perceived flaw?
 

Kapote

Member
Jul 3, 2019
586
I don't remember a case where a single post or anything would affect any plans, but general community response is certainly measured and can influence decisions. Most of the time community managers gather info for dev teams, a lot of devs read forums and reddit themselves too but... let's just say some places can be quite toxic and reading how people expess their thoughts can be daunting.
Yeah, I can imagine that
 

Mukrab

Member
Apr 19, 2020
7,503
Give me a billion dollars and I'd spend it making multiple smaller titles with interesting gameplay mechanics. That's what needs to change within the industry. However, players are so critical and used to a high quality bar that they'd latch on to any lack of polish or missing features that major AAA have so that would be a major concern with this kind of strategy. That's what needs to change, though. Smaller, more interesting games that don't require a ton of additional work like making sure a character's foot doesn't clip into rocks when they step onto uneven ground. There's so much time spent on this largely ignored stuff, but it's part of the AAA process. Hell, I'm used to crunch spent polishing ik collision while simultaneously fixing major, game breaking script bugs. Time is just never on your side in game dev.
There are so many great smaller titles tho. I barely play AAA games unless it's multiplayer. A game like Risk of Rain 2 is easily in my top 5 games of all time. I don't think there is a lack of small titles at all.
 

Mukrab

Member
Apr 19, 2020
7,503
Honestly, things are likely to become even less effective :D Generally speaking if you just ask people to make the best game they can/want, you activate their perfectionist tendencies which would lead to a quick burning of the budget with little actual progress. Limits are important.
My curiosity was more about what things are even done in single player games that are for monetary reasons and could probably be done better without it. It's an easy answer when it comes to multiplayer game but i'm not sure how it affects single player games, if at all.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Thanks a lot for the answer, I will definitely look into those :D
Sure! Thominet + Reimer are really interesting to read together because Reimer gets kind of into perception - how devs engage in fan spaces - and Thominet looks not at perception, but what can be observed (these reports happened; these things got addressed; these did not) and then combining with responses from folks like these in the thread, together we get a really extensive picture of feedback uptake!
 

Deleted member 12009

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,141
Thanks so much for your quick and thoughtful response. This makes ton of sense and really answers what I'm thinking. If I may ask a follow up (it's ok if you can't answer): Are developers concerned if the side quests hurt their review scores or does the business aspect take over to such a degree that it's not worth thinking about?

Absolutely we are concerned they will be poorly recieved. It's frustrating, because it's usually a matter of making a design decision based upon available resources. Just like in playing a game, game dev is often about resource management and when we have an issue like 'we need the player to have more resources' and we either don't want to simply hand them something (which often feels bad) or we can't rebalance around that section of the game (like it would require multiple areas to be reworked and rebalanced) then it has to stay in.

So many design decisions come down to issues like this. Like 'this sucks ass, we know it sucks ass, but it's the best solution we can achieve with the resources we have.' Inevitably, someone is going to come down on us for that, whether it's players, the media, or management. Sometimes there just isn't a good answer. Sometimes you just have to include the awful fetch quest or collectathon because you need content and its all we can handle. Keep in mind that even if the LD is fully on board with doing all the additional work required to adjust a section of a game, you need EVERYONE to sign on for that kind of project. You need buy in from art, producers, directors, audio, etc.

This used to be less of an issue, when games were significantly less complext and art wasn't as detailed. cobbling together some shitty character animation for an npc was much simpler, but with higher fidelity games bad art sticks out like a sore thumb. That's why these less interesting gameplay moments remain. They can still lean on the existing level design to support, stapled onto already existing systems, and need the fewest amount of people necessary to sign on.
 

Deleted member 12009

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,141
There are so many great smaller titles tho. I barely play AAA games unless it's multiplayer. A game like Risk of Rain 2 is easily in my top 5 games of all time. I don't think there is a lack of small titles at all.

I'm just saying what I'd do with all that money. And that I wish AAA publishers diversified into smaller projects over huge, blockbuster productions.
 
OP
OP
Farlander

Farlander

Game Designer
Verified
Sep 29, 2021
332
In games like Horizon or the newest Tomb Raider trilogy, why are characters spoiling the puzzle solutions before you can figure them out? I understand the help being there for users who are stuck, but sometimes they just say what you're supposed to do right away. Is it intentional?

Lack of time/resources to properly define when a player can be considered stuck (with no means to implement a 'get a hint' button) = hints are put on a set timer. This is not ideal but with massive audiences at hand this prevents frustration of far bigger amount of people than the amount of people who would consider their experience to be damaged by an early hint.
 

Manu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,151
Buenos Aires, Argentina
Lack of time/resources to properly define when a player can be considered stuck (with no means to implement a 'get a hint' button) = hints are put on a set timer. This is not ideal but with massive audiences at hand this prevents frustration of far bigger amount of people than the amount of people who would consider their experience to be damaged by an early hint.

That kinda sucks but makes sense I guess. I wish there was a happy medium though. Thank you for the response!
 
OP
OP
Farlander

Farlander

Game Designer
Verified
Sep 29, 2021
332
That kinda sucks but makes sense I guess. I wish there was a happy medium though. Thank you for the response!

Here's the truth that we have to face when making big-budgeted games with massive audiences, even sequels. It can be either the first game of its kind that the person plays, or the 500th. Which is just a massive difference in player knowledge/understanding/savviness. Of course the goal is to accommodate for both (through settings or smart systems that can figure out what type of player is playing now), but unless there is an agreement that we're fine to have a pretty specific audience with specific tastes, when making choices priority will be on making sure that the more newbie player has a better flow to not lose them, because a more experienced one is far likely to just be mildly annoyed more than anything but still stay.
 

SickNasty

Member
Mar 18, 2020
1,255
The more LPs and streams you watch, the more you realise the average person playing your game is utterly useless and will manage to somehow ignore the flashing neon sign pasted over a third of the screen telling them what to do. The more hints the merrier.
 

Deleted member 12009

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,141
As a game developer, do you feel that you are generally more or less tolerant of other games' flaws when you play them? Or does it just depend on the nature of the perceived flaw?

I am significantly less critical nowadays because I can often rationilze why a decision was made. In general, I try to be less critical when digesting any media, and look at the positives/themes first for lessons I can take away and apply to my own design.

I've seen how the sausage is made and grown to appreciate even the worst of it. Hell, I think more players should attempt game creation for this reason alone. I think people would be far more forgiving and enjoy games more if they took some time to learn just how insane creating even a simple game is.
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,051
As a game developer, do you feel that you are generally more or less tolerant of other games' flaws when you play them? Or does it just depend on the nature of the perceived flaw?

it's probably more of a different perspective than anything- oftentimes you figure there's a better or more elegant way to do something that bothers you in a game, but at the same time there's also the realization from first-hand experience that there's so much other shit going on at any one time in game dev that it more likely than not involved a decision to fix a bigger forest fire than the people working on it not noticing that flaw to begin with

Here's the truth that we have to face when making big-budgeted games with massive audiences, even sequels. It can be either the first game of its kind that the person plays, or the 500th.

oh yeah absolutely- in the absence of a more elaborate solution that caters to both, it's the lesser evil that a savvy gamer gets mildly annoyed than leaving an incredibly sour taste for someone's first video game getting lost not knowing what to do and ultimately giving up
 

Deleted member 24540

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,599
How do developers determine which parts of the game they polish and which parts they leave in a less than ideal way?

For example someone might post a comment online saying "I love this game but I wish the walking animation wasn't so awkward, why didn't they have time to fix it?"

And there's like a million different types of comments like that for any given game, so how do you decide what needs to be worked on in a patch/sequel and what you leave as it is?

In other words, which are the absolute essential aspects of a game that determines if a person will view the game from a positive side?

What I mean is, someone might say "this game is perfect except for aspects x y z which ruined the game for me" those people are on the negative side, but the ones on the positive side of a flawed game would say "yes, x y z aren't perfect, but I still love the game"

I ask since publishers want to maximize profits, so there must be some things they know are more important than others. Whereas an indie dev with an essentially infinite budget would be able to focus on the aspects they themselves consider important and at delivering an intended artistic expression, but a publisher thinks in terms of maximizing gains. There has to be a pattern of human behavior publishers have figured out since AAA games tend to be undercooked in the same categories and contain similar features. Do they just copy each other and hope for the best or have they 'cracked the code' ?
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,051
in most large projects issues get addressed in actually a much more logical fashion than it might seem, lol

you've probably heard jokes about JIRA lists- issues basically get categorized and everything that's a potential blocker to finishing a game absolutely has to be addressed before things that aren't, and those come in all shapes and sizes- game progression logic glitching out or otherwise behaving in an unintended way and softlocking progress, crashes, all the way to difficulty spikes making progress for the average person too tedious, etc.

i think your comparison misses the mark slightly in that it's comparing two things that ultimately might not matter to whether people can finish a game or not- in-dev games are hellholes where you find something you need to address, turn around to note it down and find three other things else that needs to be addressed, (for good measure, let's say one of which hard locks only certain SKUs but not others so it's going to be an adventure and a half to try to figure out what's going on, if you can even repro it reliably) before you even get a chance to breathe and that shit stacks to an absurd degree- listing it all down and tackling things in order of priority is the only sane way to get it from that state to something approaching shippable.

it's not a case of whether publishers want to maximize profits off some little feature or not, it's more of getting the game to not fall apart especially more people start getting their hands on it and start doing things in ways that you never thought of.

i think part of what answers your question while also tying to this is figuring out which fixes or sweeping changes to major aspects of the game are the least likely to break things and add yet another conga line of JIRA tickets, especially when milestones or gold master dates are encroaching. you might have an incredible epiphany in hindsight for a boss design that might make it flow much better- but is tweaking it and then having to start from scratch testing the entire encounter something that seems feasible in the time remaining?

other times, things that SHOULD seem like no-brainers to fix have unfortunate reasons preventing said fixes. "This camera sucks! We should fix it!" then you realize the person working on this before you had already built all the camera work directly into the character code and changing stuff is likely to break facets of character movement and actions. you COULD still take the time to dive in and then test and iterate and fix all the collateral damage, but again, it's a triage and analysis of whether it's risky. Code debt definitely is A Thing(tm) with games and sometimes you just have to make the most of the situation.
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 12009

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,141
How do developers determine which parts of the game they polish and which parts they leave in a less than ideal way?

For example someone might post a comment online saying "I love this game but I wish the walking animation wasn't so awkward, why didn't they have time to fix it?"

And there's like a million different types of comments like that for any given game, so how do you decide what needs to be worked on in a patch/sequel and what you leave as it is?

In other words, which are the absolute essential aspects of a game that determines if a person will view the game from a positive side?

What I mean is, someone might say "this game is perfect except for aspects x y z which ruined the game for me" those people are on the negative side, but the ones on the positive side of a flawed game would say "yes, x y z aren't perfect, but I still love the game"

I ask since publishers want to maximize profits, so there must be some things they know are more important than others. Whereas an indie dev with an essentially infinite budget would be able to focus on the aspects they themselves consider important and at delivering an intended artistic expression, but a publisher thinks in terms of maximizing gains. There has to be a pattern of human behavior publishers have figured out since AAA games tend to be undercooked in the same categories and contain similar features. Do they just copy each other and hope for the best or have they 'cracked the code' ?

Patch and sequel are different things, but this question is circling around something I've wanted to talk about so let me take a swing at answering a few things. Context: I'm speaking as a AAA game dev from the US.

Patch: fix game breaking things and prioritize post launch content that was already in production. In this case, it might be an opportunity to fix certain issues with game features, but it's going to differ wildly between games. A well recieved game is just going to get lots of love and polish, while a critical flop might necessitate a lot more crunch to get right and even then it might simply be abandoned because there's no time/money to fix it.

Sequel: Oh boy. Ok, so, before I get into this, I think it's important I actually talk about feedback and the psychology behind it. I'll get to publisher feedback in a a minute.

So much of what makes or breaks a game comes down to just how 'open' a community of players is when the game drops. Some games might be poorly optimized, full of jank, or have a middling storyline yet somehow come out on top as blockbusters that garner tons of praise. Part of it is quality, absolutely, but a very, very large part of it is social coercion (my friends are playing and I want to as well, FOMO, my favorite streamer plays) and the openness of the community you are catering to. I can't get into the nitty gritty on this, but developing successful games isn't a science, and some times you can do everything right and still be despised due to social/political pressures or completely fabricated misinfo. Why do I bring this up? Because as a dev, you have to navigate this wishy washy world of 'feelings' and balancing optics with your own personal preferences. Ultimately, our goal is always to provide our target audience with a product they're not only happy with, but are ambassadors for. That way, we can continue to work on the game post launch and support them to the best of our ability. I don't want to send a game out to die, I want to give it to people who appreciate it and want more. Anything less is a waste of time (in my opinion).

So after finishing a project, theres a long debriefing, where people take vacations, read feedback, and fix outstanding issues. But all the while the next game is being planned. We gather expectations, feedback both positive and negative, and internal feelings about what direction we should head. However, what if you made a game that you know is good, but was subject to unreasonably scrutiny for things you didn't consider or underestimated. Then things get difficult. A massive feature that data suggested should be popular isn't, because a specific group of the hard core crowd disliked it regardless of how popular it was with the general public. Think of heroes in shooters, for instance, over customizable avatars. Think of skill-based matchmaking. Think of specific narratives or characters. Now you're having to defend core features to a group of people who have been subjected to undue criticism and are potentially hostile to repeating the same experience. I know this isn't a specific example, but I hope you see where this is going.

Suddenly, due to a small group of fans being rabidly against a feature, you need to reconsider its inclusion and massive amounts of supporting features for the sequel. The original hook is ruined, if players even catch a whiff of 'running on walls' or 'no base building' they're going to freak the fuck out, despite us banking a lot on that feature during development and it being well recieved in playtesting. Now you've got to go back to the drawing board to make a new game. You do so, and you leave out that feature, rethink systems, remove unpopular systems, and finally release the game... To more negativity. Because now the people who never complained about the first game are pissed that the thing they liked most is gone and for everyone on the outside they've now seen two straight releases with negative sentiment.

We talk about things like 'publishers are greedy, they push devs to hard, they don't give us enough time, etc,' but sometimes it really does just come down to devs believing in something and it just being met with a hostile audience. It's been especially rough the past few years as the entire world is a ball of negativity, but yeah, to answer the question it is extremely difficult to thread the needly of making everyone happy or making nobody happy. And even then, you can try to right the ship in a patch but some times people aren't open to giving you another chance. So that's when the publishers step in and go 'ok, fuck this, lets just make something else' and we move on. We playtest the shit out of our games, get tons of feedback, and ultimately have to make decisions based on a limited data set and the falible words of players (edit: and our own falible opinions.) We all like to think of ourselves as rational and in touch with 'what we want' but the data often says the opposite. At the end of the day, it's on us to stand by our decisions and hope the audience reacts well, but if player sentiment is exceptionally negative its not always down to quality. Sometimes you just can't force someone to be in a good mood, and if they're trash talking the game/movie/book to everyone they meet then those are going to be potential players lost.

As for publisher feedback, which is going to focus HEAVILY on what they see as negative sentiment in the community and they're going to be dead serious on righting the ship, because, as you stated, they want to make money. Good games should make money, but the amount of complications beyond your control as a dev are vast and sometimes it just comes down to 'this should have done well, data said it should have done well, but nobody was interested.'

I know I just rambled, but I want to illustrate how complex reacting to feedback is and why change is often so slow. There are a lot of moving parts and a lot of money involved, and far more things that are completely out of your control. To reiterate, social pressure is probably the number one thing that gets players into a game, especially a multiplayer one (ever wonder why so many multiplayer games have a walk-around lobby?) and if a community turns against you it might not even be worth trying to get them back on board.

Edit: also, because it isn't obvious in what I wrote, I should also mention that negative feedback can be absolutely valid and we can make mistakes and make bad products. We run out of time, or things get borked in development- whatever the case, obviously I'm not speaking about that. If a game is busted then the devs are probably aware and ashamed of it already. I'm talking specifically about how difficult it is to react to nebulous feedback and trying to make players happy from a design side.
 
Last edited:

PshycoNinja

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
3,224
Los Angeles
Want to say the love to QA in this thread is great, it fills my Senior QA heart with joy.

I will say being at a smaller company for QA, the number of hats I wear on a daily basis and seeing what some of y'all are saying... I wish we had that. Like legit blown away by having a dedicated team of submission/TCR QA is like, I wish.

It is quite nice lol.

I have worked at the big and small companies in my ten years in this industry. There are definitely segmented jobs within QA. But it honestly depends on the company. One big company I worked for I was simply just Functionality QA and nothing else. At another big company I was QA and helped make sure the game met TRC requirements and I helped submit the game to the ESRB. Now at a smaller company I make sure their Live Operations team function properly, come up with test plans, assign tasks, invent new ways to improve process so QA can test faster without burning out people or losing quality, and QA the game myself. Lol. I will even make sure the localization is good and edited correctly. And meetings. Lots of meetings.

As a game developer, do you feel that you are generally more or less tolerant of other games' flaws when you play them? Or does it just depend on the nature of the perceived flaw?

I am significantly less critical nowadays because I can often rationilze why a decision was made. In general, I try to be less critical when digesting any media, and look at the positives/themes first for lessons I can take away and apply to my own design.

I've seen how the sausage is made and grown to appreciate even the worst of it. Hell, I think more players should attempt game creation for this reason alone. I think people would be far more forgiving and enjoy games more if they took some time to learn just how insane creating even a simple game is.

As MigraineRelief says, I too have become way less critical of games that make it out the door. I find every game a miracle it is even done.

That said, as someone who has done QA a long time, that doesn't mean it isn't noticed. Its hard to shut that part of your brain off if you do decide to play games after work. I will even find the smallest grammatical error from time to time even when I am not trying. That said, I am way less critical and have almost returned to childlike wonder of games, because I am in constant awe of how a team made something and how it all came together at all. Makes me focus on the positives and play to enjoy it, instead of trying to find something to not like about it and make myself miserable in the process.
 
Last edited:

Cloud-Hidden

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,989
Also, this is for the staff of ERA. Please encourage more devs to do stuff like this here. It would be fucking amazing to make these regular events on the forums.
Can I just say that you yourselves can encourage more devs to do stuff like this by being kinder. Era (and gaf before it) can be a brutal place to hang out as someone who works for a video game company and loves their job.

I can only speak for myself, and not for any other producers, artists, devs, marketing staff, or designers who are members here. But I am legit scared of people knowing where I work because of the unfiltered negativity I see directed not only at products, but at the people who make them, and toward companies as a whole. I feel like too often we fail to realize that larger game companies employ thousands of people (sometimes over ten-thousand), and that when you say "Fuck X company I hope it burns to the ground," there are a lot of really passionate and hard-working people there reading that and thinking, "But... I love what I do and I want you to love what I do, despite the hurdles and trials."

Anyway I don't want to derail this thread. Please just remember that it's totally fine to criticize a product and business practices, but when you make it personal, and intentionally shaming or hurtful, there are a lot of well-meaning and *super fucking hard-working* people here reading your comments, and it can be really hard not to take it personally and get depressed.

OP you're awesome and this thread is awesome.
 

BreakAtmo

Member
Nov 12, 2017
12,838
Australia
On top of what SickNasty said above: Asset libraries are, in general, a great idea. The amount of human life and money and computing power that's been burned scanning, modeling, UV unwrapping, texturing, writing PBR shaders for cabinets and rocks and Rubble_03.fbx is absolutely ridiculous and wasteful. How many different 3D models of rocks do we, as a species, need? Why don't we just make do with what we have?

One problem of asset libraries is unification of style--two 3D artists are going to make two different-looking 3D rocks, even if they're both working in a 'realistic' style or a 'toon' style or what have you. Some of this style difference can be smoothed over in a 'personality pass', by altering the shader or texture maps that the rocks use, by using post-processing (screenwide) effects, etc. Sometimes, this style difference can be used in dialogue with the content of the game. One example might be using more photorealistic ('harsher') assets in exteriors to communicate starkness and alienation, and using more styled ('warmer') assets in interiors to communicate comfiness. Another might be intentionally putting objects with disparate styles in close, messy proximity as juxtaposition, to create an impression of eclecticism or uncanny conflict.

In general, though, this is hard to pull off, because most modern gaming audiences bring a CinemaSins-style investigative paranoia to bear on assets in games, and dismiss apparent style conflicts as being an intrinsic failure on the part of the artists or the devs--they are not usually open to thinking about what those style conflicts might accomplish, it's labeled 'jank' and goes in the CONS column in a negative Steam review.

This attitude also extends to instances of asset 'reuse', and this is the real obstacle to these asset libraries taking off. People who play AAA games, by and large, are allergic to visible asset reuse. If you are making a realistic game and you use the same cupboard twice in one room, buddy, Dunkey is going to make a video about your ass. I guess the ideal is that every cupboard in the game be an entirely new model with an entirely specific texture set. I wish this value was interrogated a little more by gaming audiences--why do we need more than one cupboard? But people think we do, and that's part of why asset creation for game development is inflating with the rest of game development.

Something interesting to watch in this space: By and large, audiences are even more leery of asset reuse across games than they are within games. Calling a game an "asset flip" used to mean it resold third-party assets without adding anything of value. Now it means "the developers of this game did not make every asset themselves", to the point that games like PUBG get called asset flips for having assets from the Unreal marketplace.

More and more, Unreal has been pushing to pull indie devs and small shops away from Unity. One of their big value-adds in this space has been free access to the Quixel Megascans library, which is a sizeable repository of photorealistic assets that is growing all the time. This is an incredible resource and it's great for devs. At the same time, if this big exodus to Unreal holds, we are going to be seeing a lot of those assets in games in a couple years--meaning not only a lot of the same rocks and cabinets, but a lot of games designed around what is available in those megascans. If you are an indie dev and you want to make a game in Unreal, there's a pretty strong incentive to choose a setting that works with Quixel's packs, like "Japanese Shrines" or "Limestone Quarry". Of course, good artists are always going to be able to use this stuff in interesting ways to their own ends, but this stuff stands to become as ubiquitous as Synty's lowpoly assets are for Unity or Kenney's assets are for 2D games.

It'll be interesting to see what happens. Maybe audiences will continue rejecting so-called 'asset reuse' out of hand and there'll be an enormous backlash to this wave of games. Maybe everyone will get over it. Maybe the preponderance of photorealistic assets will serve as the popularization of the camera did for painting and portraiture, freeing it from the obligation of realism, laying the groundwork for impressionism and surrealism and eclecticism.

Thank you for going over all this, it's very educational. Except for CinemaSins and internet gamers being just the absolute worst. Everyone knew that part.
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,051
Thanks for responding. The above example is odd, as I'm pretty sure it's the sole song in the game with the problem. And the game has multiple composers both internal and contracted. Someone should've been able to fix it if they wanted to. They did fix it for the soundtrack release.

this is a tad pedantic, but unless i'm missing what you're getting at, i don't think it's something that was rendered out wrong wrong and then fixed for the soundtrack- it's probably more likely that loop points were set wrong on a file that otherwise would have worked.

i'm actually curious now, do you have a video of how it's behaving in-game?
 
Aug 26, 2018
3,730
日本
this is a tad pedantic, but unless i'm missing what you're getting at, i don't think it's something that was rendered out wrong wrong and then fixed for the soundtrack- it's probably more likely that loop points were set wrong on a file that otherwise would have worked.
That's exactly what I mean. That's why it irked me that it was never fixed.

The song restarts at 2:00. You can immediately hear that it's a measure off.

Then, the soundtrack version with the loop point in the right place. Actually, to my ears, it sounds some milliseconds off. But you'll get the gist.
 
Last edited:

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,051
yeah, listening to that i'd chalk it up to the original response you got- the person implementing it probably didn't catch it, and since Kobayashi-san was external to capcom there's a non-zero chance he may not even be aware of it till now, lol

edit: FWIW i've made a similar mistake truncating bars too- on an asset level i usually leave my music bounces 1 bar before music-in just as a catch-all for tracks with pickups, etc. so my e.g. 32-bar loop goes from bar 33 to bar 2; on a project with multiple friends contributing i'd forgotten in one case to set it 32->1 on the tracks that came in with the music starting straight away- it went 32->2 instead. was largely ambient though so aside from a slight pop it was barely noticeable <_<
 
OP
OP
Farlander

Farlander

Game Designer
Verified
Sep 29, 2021
332
Whereas an indie dev with an essentially infinite budget would be able to focus on the aspects they themselves consider important and at delivering an intended artistic expression, but a publisher thinks in terms of maximizing gains.

I want to answer this part of the post specifically, because the rest I have seen a pretty extensive reply for it already.

One of the biggest mistakes so many indie devs do is thinking precisely that - that their budget is rubbery and can stretch as much as needed and they can focus on perfecting whatever they think they should. Unless you're fine with not making a profit from your game (which really means that you have another main way to make money so it doesn't matter how the game performs, but it's a very specific situation) you don't want to act like that.

Indies, like AAA devs, ABSOLUTELY have to prioritize what to focus on a lot and what not to focus on that much (and priorities always depend on the game, obviously what's related to the core of the game should have the highest priority), and their budget is not infinite at all.

What's more, for indies all the monthly apartment/house costs, food one has to buy, internet services, etc. etc. are ALSO part of the budget (and another big mistake for small indies is that they fail to take that into account in their calculations).

So many indie games have absolutely failed commercially because their development was prolonged due to lack of prioritization and their budget was considered to be an inflatable bubble rather than something that should actually have a limit.
 

PorcoLighto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
765
Just want to put more emphasis to the already very detailed post by elenarie that the shaders complexity and its resulting stuttering is pretty well known within most dev teams.
And for people who say that everyone should just have a pre-compilation phase before the gameplay is one of those things that is easier said than done, especially true for unreal games as explained by elenarie. To be able to collect shader permutations and compile them ahead of time is harder to do dynamically than most people realize.
 

Chaos2Frozen

Member
Nov 3, 2017
28,041
Something I'm very curious about is process of "balancing" in games.

Like what are the steps from 'identifying a problem' stage up to putting out a patch to correcting it? Because right now my assumptions are:

1) Devs hear players complaining about a certain character/weapon/ability
2) Devs pull up the data they have on the backend regarding various stats
3) ???
4) Test it out
5) Release a balance patch 3-6 months later

Are majority of time spent on just the testing phase? Making sure the thing you changed doesn't break everything else in the game?
 

machinaea

Game Producer
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
221
Lovely thread, and good reminder also that many of the things that I would imagine are obvious unless you really believe developers are greedy, incompetent, lazy or don't care, which quite rarely is the case outside the smaller things as the time-pressure is breathing down our necks.

Something I'm very curious about is process of "balancing" in games.

Like what are the steps from 'identifying a problem' stage up to putting out a patch to correcting it? Because right now my assumptions are:

1) Devs hear players complaining about a certain character/weapon/ability
2) Devs pull up the data they have on the backend regarding various stats
3) ???
4) Test it out
5) Release a balance patch 3-6 months later

Are majority of time spent on just the testing phase? Making sure the thing you changed doesn't break everything else in the game?
Balancing is a really interesting subject where I think it can be quite difficult sometimes to match what some of the enthusiast players see and feel versus how the developers see the issue. Generally speaking, there's always an issue with the balance and perfect balance is somewhat of unattainable goal that also doesn't make sense and players tend to reward developers with increased activity when there's regular cadence of update and shifts in the balance. That said, on a higher level those steps are not far off, but there is of course quite a few things that especially bigger teams with more complex games might consider:

Designers, analysts etc. aim to confirm the issue and understand the consequences:
- does the data confirm the issue, which parts of the playerbase does it affect mostly
- how does the problem manifest itself, is it that certain character has a higher than expected use rate or win ratio that exceeds the other factors that could affect it (new characters are always popular in the beginning or some characters have a disproportionate win-ratio simply because they are geared towards more skilled players, but have a normal usage rate)
- what is the impact of the problem? does it pose a threat to the game health by reducing retention or vastly reducing player agency
- does it seem like it's a time-specific issue and that it would make sense first to see if the situation changes as players adapt to things

Scoping out potential fixes:
- what are the different potential fixes?
- can the team make any predictions on how the situation would change
- how complex are the fixes and what unintended consequences would they have?
- is the required talent available and if not, what are the consequences of pulling the necessary people from their current goals and downscoping/delaying them, or when would there be a good time available?
- how can the fix be verified, is it a feeling thing or can the verification be done in-house / with external partners, does it require PTR like testing?
- how to deploy the fix and integrate it to all of the other changes being done, is data change that can be easily pushed live without a patch or does it require client patches and synchronization of various development branches and team
- what should happen after a fix is live, what is expected to be the next active issue and is the team ready to tackle that?

Testing and preparation:
- testing can really differ per team, but it can indeed be a simply a set team testing the changes consitently for weeks and trying to get as much data and learnings from it before confirming the changes
- patches in complex games tend to come with weeks of leadtime for integration, testing and bugfixing, certification and preparation so that a simple change alongside other changes may take well over a month to get live simply because of the overhead of patching

Now in reality different teams do things very differently and the larger the team, the more there is time allocated for planning, risk-assesments, directorial reviews etc. so that an issue might have vocal community outcry, but doesn't necessarily harm the game on the short-term or is much smaller or localized in reality, that it's not worth derailing ongoing operations and gets in the pool of other changes for the next balance pass and patch, which in itself can take some time because of all the complex planning and release overhead it takes. So to the question where the time is spent, it really depends on the scope of the project and the fix, but aside from testing it's also easy to spend a lot of time in planning and the actual iteration of the fixes too.

That said, I've also worked in teams where we push balance changes from receiving player feedback to live in under 24 hours, but I do personally sometimes fail to see the value as it can be quite the distraction for the team and prevent focusing on bigger goals, and often the result feels like you're just shifting things around and pleasing/displeasing different people.
 

GING-SAMA

Banned
Jul 10, 2019
7,846
What is the most expensive part of a game's budget ? (without counting marketing)

Do the outsourcing is big part of that budget ?
 

THANKS

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 22, 2018
1,370
Can I just say that you yourselves can encourage more devs to do stuff like this by being kinder. Era (and gaf before it) can be a brutal place to hang out as someone who works for a video game company and loves their job.

I can only speak for myself, and not for any other producers, artists, devs, marketing staff, or designers who are members here. But I am legit scared of people knowing where I work because of the unfiltered negativity I see directed not only at products, but at the people who make them, and toward companies as a whole. I feel like too often we fail to realize that larger game companies employ thousands of people (sometimes over ten-thousand), and that when you say "Fuck X company I hope it burns to the ground," there are a lot of really passionate and hard-working people there reading that and thinking, "But... I love what I do and I want you to love what I do, despite the hurdles and trials."

Anyway I don't want to derail this thread. Please just remember that it's totally fine to criticize a product and business practices, but when you make it personal, and intentionally shaming or hurtful, there are a lot of well-meaning and *super fucking hard-working* people here reading your comments, and it can be really hard not to take it personally and get depressed.

OP you're awesome and this thread is awesome.

I just want to add that a lot of studios do not allow low level devs to speak freely in this format. Especially large studios. I am a AAA dev but don't want to be specifically identified. If ever a website picks up your answer in a thread like this and made an article it makes people uncomfortable.
 

elenarie

Game Developer
Verified
Jun 10, 2018
9,809
Just want to put more emphasis to the already very detailed post by elenarie that the shaders complexity and its resulting stuttering is pretty well known within most dev teams.
And for people who say that everyone should just have a pre-compilation phase before the gameplay is one of those things that is easier said than done, especially true for unreal games as explained by elenarie. To be able to collect shader permutations and compile them ahead of time is harder to do dynamically than most people realize.

We do this somewhat secretly when the game is in the main menu in Battlefield for more generic and frequently used shaders, or while loading a map for map-specific shaders.

Of course this requires you to create systems that enable you to know exactly which shaders you need to compile at what time. Not exactly an easy thing to do.
 

machinaea

Game Producer
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
221
What is the most expensive part of a game's budget ? (without counting marketing)
Staff quite easily, even though game developers are underpaid compared to their peers (well programmers especially) biggest chunk of the budget is simply the time it takes to create the game. Talent and recordings like actors, mocap etc. or research can sound expensive on its own, but doesn't really compare to the amount of hours all the development hours.

Do the outsourcing is big part of that budget ?
Really depends on the project, but contrary to popular belief outsourcing is not necessarily cheap either and you're paying a lot for having the headcount or recruitment/hiring costs, sometimes even more than a monthly salary for an equivalent artist being hired. But as many games have hundreds if not thousands of people as outsourced contributor and it can take quite a bit of in-house management, reviews, integration, fixing and testing for all of that content, it can be a substantial part of the budget.
 

Rewind

Member
Oct 27, 2017
569
I usually like to play on higher difficulties, it really bothers me when devs lock the hard mode behind beating the game first. Spider man is a good example where that game's difficulty was too easy/boring for me until I replayed it on ps5 and could import my save to play on the mode I wanted to with a fresh save. I think devs should copy uncharted 4 in this regard if they are scared of players picking the wrong difficulty. Uncharted grays crushing out, but will let you select it and pop up a warning box.
 
OP
OP
Farlander

Farlander

Game Designer
Verified
Sep 29, 2021
332
What I would add to machinaea's post about balance, and this actually applies not just to balancing but any feedback really, that there's also always a process of understanding the root cause behind feedback.

Ok, there SHOULD always be a process of understanding the root cause behind the feedback, because some people ignore this and it leads to problems.

In my experience, around 70% of the time what players say is the problem is not actually the problem, but rather a symptom/result of another problem, and finding THAT is what will actually fix experience for players.
 

Yu Narukami

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,145
Why do games sometimes release completely broken or full of glitches instead of being delayed?
For instance I couldn't play Valhalla more than 30 minutes without it crushing or the Andromeda controversy.
 

GING-SAMA

Banned
Jul 10, 2019
7,846
Staff quite easily, even though game developers are underpaid compared to their peers (well programmers especially) biggest chunk of the budget is simply the time it takes to create the game. Talent and recordings like actors, mocap etc. or research can sound expensive on its own, but doesn't really compare to the amount of hours all the development hours.


Really depends on the project, but contrary to popular belief outsourcing is not necessarily cheap either and you're paying a lot for having the headcount or recruitment/hiring costs, sometimes even more than a monthly salary for an equivalent artist being hired. But as many games have hundreds if not thousands of people as outsourced contributor and it can take quite a bit of in-house management, reviews, integration, fixing and testing for all of that content, it can be a substantial part of the budget.

And is the GDD constantly evolve or it's like 70/80% done during the pre-production to make sure in the full prod things go faster ?
 

funo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
432
Why do games sometimes release completely broken or full of glitches instead of being delayed?
For instance I couldn't play Valhalla more than 30 minutes without it crushing or the Andromeda controversy.

I can answer that: deadlines and financial pressure.
It is considered easier and way more lucrative to fix a product post-launch than to delay it (multiple times) and make it miss holiday season or a fiscal year etc.
Also, remember that this forum is not representative of the gaming world. The people out there will completely forget a delayed game exists way quicker than you think.
People will also forget about a game's issues way faster than you imagine as long as you fix them quickly enough.

I can only speak for myself, and not for any other producers, artists, devs, marketing staff, or designers who are members here. But I am legit scared of people knowing where I work because of the unfiltered negativity I see directed not only at products, but at the people who make them, and toward companies as a whole.

I can 100 % confirm this.
There are so many industry ppl on this forum and most of them are either a) afraid to speak up because of all the hate and negativity or b) afraid of being caught breaking NDAs and shit.
 

Falk

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,051
What I would add to machinaea's post about balance, and this actually applies not just to balancing but any feedback really, that there's also always a process of understanding the root cause behind feedback.

Ok, there SHOULD always be a process of understanding the root cause behind the feedback, because some people ignore this and it leads to problems.

In my experience, around 70% of the time what players say is the problem is not actually the problem, but rather a symptom/result of another problem, and finding THAT is what will actually fix experience for players.

there's a rather popular saying, listen to player's problems but not player's solutions lol
 
OP
OP
Farlander

Farlander

Game Designer
Verified
Sep 29, 2021
332
Why do games sometimes release completely broken or full of glitches instead of being delayed?
For instance I couldn't play Valhalla more than 30 minutes without it crushing or the Andromeda controversy.

I can answer that: deadlines and financial pressure.
It is considered easier and way more lucrative to fix a product post-launch than to delay it (multiple times) and make it miss holiday season or a fiscal year etc.
Also, remember that this forum is not representative of the gaming world. The people out there will completely forget a delayed game exists way quicker than you think.
People will also forget about a game's issues way faster than you imagine as long as you fix them quickly enough.

In addition to this, people don't know about 70% of the delays that happen (since publicly delays are announced only if there's an exact release date, or if release date is vague quarter/year - if that changes). Without going into details, I've seen a bunch of people ask 'why wasn't this delayed?' for certain games, and they WERE delayed several times already before announcing the final release date. At some point you have to get the game out because delays increase the game's budget considerably.
 

PorcoLighto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
765
We do this somewhat secretly when the game is in the main menu in Battlefield for more generic and frequently used shaders, or while loading a map for map-specific shaders.

Of course this requires you to create systems that enable you to know exactly which shaders you need to compile at what time. Not exactly an easy thing to do.
Yup, exactly.
There are so many industry ppl on this forum and most of them are either a) afraid to speak up because of all the hate and negativity or b) afraid of being caught breaking NDAs and shit.
My company is pretty strict but the main reason I am never going to get verified on here is because of all the vitriol tbh. The toxicity gets overbearing sometimes. Or maybe I should say the majority of the time.
 

Adum

Member
May 30, 2019
925
Thanks for the thread. My question is in regards to how current gen versions of games are usually priced higher.

In PC games, changing resolution/framerate/visual settings is as easy as going into the options menu. Is developing on consoles that much harder to justify the increased price of current gen games?
 

Flappy Pannus

Member
Feb 14, 2019
2,340
We do this somewhat secretly when the game is in the main menu in Battlefield for more generic and frequently used shaders, or while loading a map for map-specific shaders.

Of course this requires you to create systems that enable you to know exactly which shaders you need to compile at what time. Not exactly an easy thing to do.

Have you heard of any proposed/hypothesized ways to address these shader compilation issues that give you some expectation that this that can be 'solved', or at least mitigated to a significant degree in the somewhat-near future? Have you heard anything from Nvidia/AMD that they're concerned about this as a significant bottleneck to the PC gaming experience (assuming they could even affect it to any larger degree)?

The impression I get from your posts and from what I've read on this topic from other developers, is that the number of shader permutations are growing far faster than any potential method of dealing with them are, either in development or in the finished product experienced by gamers.

It will very likely be a multitude of approaches required to at least lessen the impact, but the general tone of what I've read is that we're basically in deep waters now and this is a problem that's only going to get worse - you would say that's somewhat accurate or overly pessimistic?
 
Last edited: