As an anime fan, its unsettling/disturbing how many people defend lolicon

[atomsk eater]

Aren't the terms lolicon and pedophile essentially the same thing?

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Yes, but one sounds more "palatable" and is preferred to mask the fact that it's perving on kid characters.
I'm reminded of when anitwitter recently threw a fit because some anime used the word pedophile in the subs instead of lolicon.

This shit right here has been the death of me. When I was younger I was part of a community that normalized the fuck out of this behavior and it wasn't until years later that I really processed how fucked up it all was, and suddenly I realized that all these lolicon people had a nasty, nasty little habit of never sticking to any containment protocol or "forgetting" to tag their shit if it's the kind of site where tags are involved. Nowadays that kind of stuff actively disgusts me on a deep level so it's frozen me out of a bunch of sites. I've come to the conclusion that the normalization is a conscious thing they're doing. Extending that out to the broader world of anime has... kinda taken the joy out of a lot of it.

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Yeah, lots of people have issues with being horny on main and not using tags or any provided warning system, but I do sometimes get the impression with Loli stuff it's intentional, either to normalize or scope out like minded people or try to be edgy.

 

[Alice]

I think it's fair to draw a distinction just based on the fact that sex is part of your average high school student's life and thus media about high school students is going to reflect that. Whereas a story about children, or where child characters are concerned, should really never involve those elements at all because it's inappropriate.

Fanservice would be inappropriate and wrong in either context though.

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Fanservice isn't sex, though. Sex can be done tastefully, and without pornifying underage girls. Sexual themes can be done tastefully, without showing much, there's an anime in this season proving that, it even tries to deal with problematic relationships in highschool life.

https://myanimelist.net/anime/38753/Araburu_Kisetsu_no_Otome-domo_yo

Probably my favourite show that debuted this season.

 

[WereSalamander]

Is anyone else irritated by the terms "degenerate" or "cultured"?

Anime communities use them to essentially sanitize their perversions. "We're all just a bunch of degenerates/weebs" or "It's too cultured for mere mortals" or similar. It's the kind of sanitizing language I would expect out of the alt-right.

 

[Kuro]

Fanservice isn't sex, though. Sex can be done tastefully, and without pornifying underage girls. Sexual themes can be done tastefully, without showing much, there's an anime in this season proving that, it even tries to deal with problematic relationships in highschool life.

https://myanimelist.net/anime/38753/Araburu_Kisetsu_no_Otome-domo_yo

Probably my favourite show that debuted this season.

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Ah yes the one where the highschool girl sexts her teacher and another who was trained by a pedophile that she desperately seeks the attention of.

Just because something doesn't have fanservice doesn't mean it's not problematic

 

[Qikz]

lol...I just finished watching the old Poltergeist movie and the mom is 31 while her oldest daughter is 16. I'm like...wait, wut.

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I mean teenage pregnancies are a thing and especially in the 90s they were a big social issue in at least the UK when I was growing up. So having a mother of a teenager be relatively young isn't exactly a confusing thing.

 

[King Metal Zel]

Supply and demand. Creators won't make them if there's no demand.

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this is not true. people create fucked up shit all the time that there's no demand for.

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It's accurate if you add a word. "Supply and demand. Creators won't continue making them if there's no demand."

 

[Subpar Scrub]

I do dislike it when there's random fanservice that makes the situation uncomfortable. Or when the show is entirely designed around putting young-looking characters in revealing clothing for no reason. Particularly if the only parts of them that aren't armoured are the parts that should be most armoured. Looking at you, Frame Arm Girls and No Game No Life. Both of those were quick quits for me.

Not sure why some people in here are referring to MHA, I can't recall much fanservice although that onsen trope thing wasn't great. If it's because of Mineta... I don't know what to say. Everyone in the show actively despises him. The fans despise him. I thought that was the point. Couldn't say I'd miss him if he was killed off or whatever, though.

Edit: weird to see Milk banned. Can't say I agree with their points at all in this thread, but I certainly wouldn't infer their posts as "defending" anything beyond providing their personal opinion and experience. Moderation gonna moderate though, none of my concern.

 

[Alice]

Ah yes the one where the highschool girl sexts her teacher and another who was trained by a pedophile that she desperately seeks the attention of.

Just because something doesn't have fanservice doesn't mean it's not problematic

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Neither of those "relationships" are being depicted in a positive light. Quite the contrary, actually. Are you watching the show, or are you going on hearsay?

Not sure why some people in here are referring to MHA, I can't recall much fanservice although that onsen trope thing wasn't great. If it's because of Mineta... I don't know what to say. Everyone in the show actively despises him. The fans despise him. I thought that was the point. Couldn't say I'd miss him if he was killed off or whatever, though.

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A couple of the girls have pretty questionable outfit designs, and Mineta does get very grabby several times. The author can't write women worth shit, but he's one of the better shounen authors when it comes to avoiding unnecessary fanservice.

 

[Kuro]

Neither of those "relationships" are being depicted in a positive light. Quite the contrary, actually. Are you watching the show, or are you going on hearsay?

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I'm dropped at around episode 8 because from what I saw it tried to make light of both those situations. Looked up who wrote it, skimmed the Manga and noped out. Mari Okada is mess of a writer as well.

 

[TheCthultist]

"Ephebophilia" is one of those words that immediately puts up a giant warning sign for the person using it.

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It's one of the few examples I can think of where the fact that you know it automatically makes me distrust you... like the people who just happen to know what parts of the world have the lowest age of consent off the top of their heads.

 

[Alice]

I'm dropped at around episode 8 because from what I saw it tried to make light of both those situations. Looked up who wrote it, skimmed the Manga and noped out. Mari Okada is mess of a writer as well.

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Nothing in the show so far has made light of these situations. I don't know what the manga does, maybe that'll change. But right now, both of these relationships are considered problematic, even by the characters in the show.

It's one of the few examples I can think of where the fact that you know it automatically makes me distrust you... like the people who just happen to know what parts of the world have the lowest age of consent off the top of their heads.

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I just have to think of the Romeo and Juilet Law scene from that Transformers film whenever those weird ass disctions and justifications pop up.

 

[Sign My Guestbook!]

I witnessed firsthand how messed up the community at large can be when I brought Made in Abyss to attention. Like, wow.

One of my favorite excuses from that is "everyone in this world is shit, and trash, so why have standards at all; go all the way"

 

[Subpar Scrub]

A couple of the girls have pretty questionable outfit designs

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True. The girl who creates things using her cells or whatever comes to mind in particular. So does the engineer girl, Lady Mountain, the lady who puts people to sleep and Froppy etc. Most of my girl friends who watch anime like how the guys are in costumes which appear equally revealing or appealing though. They fawn over Bakugo and Kirishima a lot lol, but that doesn't make it okay.

and Mineta does get very grabby several times.

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Which is why I (and the characters) hate him so much lol. As I said, I think the show would see a net benefit if he wasn't there.

The author can't write women worth shit, but he's one of the better shounen authors when it comes to avoiding unnecessary fanservice.

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I agree. Froppy is pretty funny and some of the girls have some meaningful opinions/goals/personality traits, but I haven't seen too many female characters who are as fleshed out and goal driven as Deku, Bakugo or even Todoroki.

 

[Alice]

I witnessed firsthand how messed up the community at large can be when I brought Made in Abyss to attention. Like, wow.

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Made in Abyss is such a tragedy, too. It would be a great story if the author hadn't gone off into creepsville...

 

[Khanimus]

It makes it real fucking easy to want to distance myself from anime and the larger fandom. I'll follow professional artists who will occasionally post an impressive gif of some great animation, and I am more than comfortable with having that be the extent of my engagement.

I don't need to waste my time watching a series only for some creep's child-sized fuckdoll fantasy showing up. Shitty otaku-bait with the fan-service is bad enough.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

"Ephebophilia" is one of those words that immediately puts up a giant warning sign for the person using it.

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This is the first time I'm encountering this word and I wish I hadn't

 

[SArcher]

So what's the argument here? I get finding stuff like this gross. But noone is getting hurt, right? It's just drawings. Or are we saying that this stuff turns normal people into pedophiles? Or that it normalizes the sexualization of children in media and, thus, in society?

 

[Manu]

Made in Abyss is such a tragedy, too. It would be a great story if the author hadn't gone off into creepsville...

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I was fine with Made in Abyss based on the anime, found it questionable at worst. But the manga gets so. much. worse. Any excuses at that point become harder to justify and it's like "yeah, I think the author just wanted to slap some tits on this character."

 

[Alice]

It makes it real fucking easy to want to distance myself from anime and the larger fandom. I'll follow professional artists who will occasionally post an impressive gif of some great animation, and I am more than comfortable with having that be the extent of my engagement.

I don't need to waste my time watching a series only for some creep's child-sized fuckdoll fantasy showing up. Shitty otaku-bait with the fan-service is bad enough.

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I've been watching anime since the early 80s, and while I agree that it's gotten worse since then, I usually learned to tell which shows go into territory I really hate and which don't. then sometimes things like Usagi Drop pop up, where you only regret liking it with additional context after the fact.

I don't see a community I largely avoid as a reason to stop watching anime or reading manga, though. I just curate a lot more and drop earlier.

I was fine with Made in Abyss based on the anime, found it questionable at worst. But the manga gets so. much. worse. Any excuses at that point become harder to justify and it's like "yeah, I think the author just wanted to slap some tits on this character."

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I raised a lot of eyebrows, even during the show, but completely noped out of the manga with that toilet scene. That was just... Ugh. Why would an author self sabotage their own story so dramatically.

 

[WereSalamander]

So what's the argument here? I get finding stuff like this gross. But noone is getting hurt, right? It's just drawings. Or are we saying that this stuff turns normal people into pedophiles? Or that it normalizes the sexualization of children in media and, thus, in society?

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I'm not sure it turns people into pedophiles. If it did, I'd be a mass murderer now with the amount of games I've played that involves shooting someone. (Glorification of violence is another big issue for another thread)

But it does sanitize the sexualization of children and nudges the window of acceptability in the wrong direction. Most people won't become pedos, but it'll foster a social environment that will make it easier for actual pedophiles to act on their perversions in real life. Also makes it easier for those people to get away with it. Imagine if an anime fan were a judge, and goes lenient on a pedophile because deep inside he's thinking, "Well he's a degenerate like me, so I can kinda understand where he's coming from." Yikes.

 

[Nightbird]

What annoys me the most are those who try to argue the age of consent being "14", thus making it okay.

That's not how it works. At all. Forgetting about the additional laws that put the actual age of consent much higher, doesn't make them not exist.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Fanservice isn't sex, though. Sex can be done tastefully, and without pornifying underage girls. Sexual themes can be done tastefully, without showing much, there's an anime in this season proving that, it even tries to deal with problematic relationships in highschool life.

https://myanimelist.net/anime/38753/Araburu_Kisetsu_no_Otome-domo_yo

Probably my favourite show that debuted this season.

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Yup, I agree. No idea about that show, but I will keep it in mind.

 

[JuicyPlayer]

Does anybody remember Excel Saga and that Scientist character that was into little girls. That shit is so uncomfortable to look at now.

 

[Sanka]

My kid loves Dragon Ball Z, but I hate the Roshi perv shit. And I was going to try MHA with him, but crap like this....

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Let him watch Mob Psycho. Whole series probably has 0 amounts of nudity or fanservice, for men at least. Women do get some fanservice.

 

[SapientWolf]

So what's the argument here? I get finding stuff like this gross. But noone is getting hurt, right? It's just drawings. Or are we saying that this stuff turns normal people into pedophiles? Or that it normalizes the sexualization of children in media and, thus, in society?

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I think this type of content tends to be a symptom of the problem rather than the cause. The actual harm is occuring in crowded trains or behind closed doors.

The normal reaction to loli should be revulsion.

 

[Ashlette]

Is anyone else irritated by the terms "degenerate" or "cultured"?

Anime communities use them to essentially sanitize their perversions. "We're all just a bunch of degenerates/weebs" or "It's too cultured for mere mortals" or similar. It's the kind of sanitizing language I would expect out of the alt-right.

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Same here. Doesn't help that they also spout a lot of hateful statements "for the lulz".

 

[Kewlmyc]

I witnessed firsthand how messed up the community at large can be when I brought Made in Abyss to attention. Like, wow.

One of my favorite excuses from that is "everyone in this world is shit, and trash, so why have standards at all; go all the way"

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Made in Abyss will always be a great show that I can't recommend to anyone outside the hardcore anime community.

I would recommend even Devilman Crybaby with its killer vaginas over Made in Abyss.

 

[Mekanos]

I do dislike it when there's random fanservice that makes the situation uncomfortable. Or when the show is entirely designed around putting young-looking characters in revealing clothing for no reason. Particularly if the only parts of them that aren't armoured are the parts that should be most armoured. Looking at you, Frame Arm Girls and No Game No Life. Both of those were quick quits for me.

Not sure why some people in here are referring to MHA, I can't recall much fanservice although that onsen trope thing wasn't great. If it's because of Mineta... I don't know what to say. Everyone in the show actively despises him. The fans despise him. I thought that was the point. Couldn't say I'd miss him if he was killed off or whatever, though.

Edit: weird to see Milk banned. Can't say I agree with their points at all in this thread, but I certainly wouldn't infer their posts as "defending" anything beyond providing their personal opinion and experience. Moderation gonna moderate though, none of my concern.

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The Hero Academia mangaka himself has said he relates to Mineta and his perverted nature. His antics are meant to be endearing, like "oh, that troublemaker!" instead of being a case study in sexual assault.

 

[Hypron]

Made in Abyss will always be a great show that I can't recommend to anyone outside the hardcore anime community.

I would recommend even Devilman Crybaby with its killer vaginas over Made in Abyss.

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On a related note, the fact Devilman Crybaby's characters actually have sex feels a lot more honest than the creepy, voyeur shit that you see in a lot of anime. The sexual content is also often clearly portrayed in a way to make the viewer uncomfortable. I mean, there's still stuff you can criticise it for, but, in a way, the fact it's much more graphic makes it feel less gross in my opinion.

 

[Yukari]

Which is why I (and the characters) hate him so much lol. As I said, I think the show would see a net benefit if he wasn't there.

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Is the spy/traitor among students still a thing?

I very suspect him because he a character type that everyone would not doubt him.

 

[Mendrox]

Is anyone else irritated by the terms "degenerate" or "cultured"?

Anime communities use them to essentially sanitize their perversions. "We're all just a bunch of degenerates/weebs" or "It's too cultured for mere mortals" or similar. It's the kind of sanitizing language I would expect out of the alt-right.

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It's meme talk nothing else.

I mean even here in this community people in the anime thread celebrated someone watching Oreimo which is also question able.

i've dropped friends for liking that shit. you can tell it stung cause i called them creeps for knowing and still engaging that material.

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You dropped "friends" for MHA? I mean you have a god damn Horo avatar lol

 

[Subpar Scrub]

Is the spy/traitor among students still a thing?

I very suspect him because he a character type that everyone would not doubt him.

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Still a thing as far as I know, yeah. I doubt it's him because that would be obvious. There's a much better argument that it's

Spoiler: Probs the traitor

Kaminari

just based on their conduct and reaction to things, as well as abilities. Idk I only watch the show, so I'm way behind. Could be a teacher or student from another class too I guess, though that wouldn't be as dramatic.

The Hero Academia mangaka himself has said he relates to Mineta and his perverted nature. His antics are meant to be endearing, like "oh, that troublemaker!" instead of being a case study in sexual assault.

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Oh well that's a fucking bummer.

 

[Sanka]

What I am wondering is why these child characters appeal to so many people. I would bet that the majority aren't real pedophiles as they shouldn't make up such a big part of the population. So seemingly normal hetero men are attracted to children when they are depicted in anime.

 

[Alice]

Yup, I agree. No idea about that show, but I will keep it in mind.

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Keep in mind, that it does deal with Japanese high school girl tropes, like falling in love with a teacher and creepy mentors. IMO those are being presented as negative and harmful to the girls involed, but others seem to have a different outlook on those.

 

[Mekanos]

I would bet that the majority aren't real pedophiles

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What is a "real pedophile?"

Pedophilia is insanely normalized in our culture. How many middle schoolers have Instagram followings where they put on makeup and beauty products? Or the fact that teen girls are the most popular porn category by metrics?

Pedophiles aren't just creepy guys in the bushes that kidnap little kids off the street. It runs much deeper than that.

 

[FriskyCanuck]

I was reading Anime Feminist reviews some time ago and was shocked that there was an anime where a college aged main character falls in love with and literally grooms her little sister's classmate. I thought that this was some sort of one off but apparently there was another anime about a predatory adult woman going after a school age girl.

All this is either played for laughs or is "aww isn't that cute". I dunno if normalizing predatory pedophilia is a trend or not, but it was definitely a "yikes" moment from me. Crunchyroll has one or both of them in their library.

https://www.animefeminist.com/review-wataten-an-angel-flew-down-to-me-episode-1/

Miyako is withdrawn and spends every day in a tracksuit—except when she's cosplaying—and has no friends her own age. We also see her being (wackily™) abused by her mother, a frequent background of female predators in particular.

The National Center for Exploited and Missing Children lists warning signs that include:

• Lives alone or with parents
• Associates and circle of friends are young
• Limited peer relationships
• Refers to children as "clean," "pure," "innocent," "impish," etc., or as objects
• Identifies with children (better than with adults)
• Has hobbies and interests appealing to children
• Activities with children, often excluding other adults

In case you were wondering, all of those appear in some form or other in this episode! It's really fun, because they're wrapped around a rom-com-style thread where Miyako is trying to figure out why her gosh-darn tummy feels all wriggly.

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[Kewlmyc]

It's meme talk nothing else.

I mean even here in this community people in the anime thread celebrated someone watching Oreimo which is also question able.

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You phrase it as if it's not a person forcing themselves through garbage to the amusement of others. Wouldn't call that celebrating.

 

[Mendrox]

i've dropped friends for liking that shit. you can tell it stung cause i called them creeps for knowing and still engaging that material.

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You phrase it as if it's not a person forcing themselves through garbage to the amusement of others. Wouldn't call that celebrating.

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Writing big Expositions foe every single episode including a counter... Yeah that somebody enjoys it

 

[Sanka]

What is a "real pedophile?"

Pedophilia is insanely normalized in our culture. How many middle schoolers have Instagram followings where they put on makeup and beauty products? Or the fact that teen girls are the most popular porn category by metrics?

Pedophiles aren't just creepy guys in the bushes that kidnap little kids off the street. It runs much deeper than that.

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We are talking about lolicon tho. So characters that look pretty much like literal children, even younger than middle school. That is not a condition that so many people within the anime community should have, yet you can see all kinds of loli characters getting really popular, especially on reddit.

 

[Yukari]

Fanservice isn't sex, though. Sex can be done tastefully, and without pornifying underage girls. Sexual themes can be done tastefully, without showing much, there's an anime in this season proving that, it even tries to deal with problematic relationships in highschool life.

https://myanimelist.net/anime/38753/Araburu_Kisetsu_no_Otome-domo_yo

Probably my favourite show that debuted this season.

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Probably Check. I really like Asobi Asobase

 

[Kewlmyc]

Writing big Expositions foe every single episode including a counter... Yeah that somebody enjoys it

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I see it as a mixture of having free time and hate watching a show.

 

[WereSalamander]

It's meme talk nothing else.

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Sounds more than just memes when people are using those terms to describe how amazing and cultured a manga is where one of its main premises is the main character trying to strip the panties off of a scantily-clad girl who looks no older than maybe 9.

It's like the OK symbol for white nationalists. Just a meme, right?

 

[Village]

I agree. While I do not have the psych degree to declare it is unequivocally bad for your perception of real people. I will say that I think stuff like this comes up so often and gets defended because there are underlying gross shit about the culture surrounding it that's manifesting itself this way. The sexualization of minors in media has always been weird and it manifests itself in different ways across the globe. And I feel like a very harsh conversation needs to be had about the over sexualization of innocence and youth. Because lolicon shit dont pop up out of nowhere. Its creation and its acceptance is reflective of societal issues.

I think mha is a good example, thems kids and the sexualization of them kids through out the fanbase is weird. This ontop of the authors admitted self insert being a pervert no one likes and no one questioning the possible implication of that sort of self characterization. We need to have some stern talks

 

[Mendrox]

Sounds more than just memes when people are using those terms to describe how amazing and cultured a manga is where one of its main premises is the main character trying to strip the panties off of a scantily-clad girl who looks no older than maybe 9.

It's like the OK symbol for white nationalists. Just a meme, right?

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Not gonna argue with that. You are correct, but it's everywhere (well cultured, not degenerate, even in our own threads in the gaming community all the time):

 

[Aske]

Kinks like rape and incest role play, as well as age play, are often used by consenting adults to process and move beyond real abuse they have suffered. I am someone who has absolutely used kink to process and work through trauma I have suffered in this way. So I'm deeply opposed to kink-shaming, and anyone criticizing consenting adults for whatever fantasies they choose to involve themselves with sexually.

Now, I don't imagine anyone is using loli fetish anime to process trauma; but it's still fiction created by and for consenting adults. You look at rape or incest role play porn, I vibe you, and wonder if you happen to be a survivor of abuse. Regardless, I don't for a second fear that you're engaging with those acts in real life. But you look at videos of someone being sexually assaulted, and you're tacitly supporting the abuse of an unwilling victim, and need to be held accountable. That's how I feel about lolicon media. If no children are being harmed, I've got no beef with consenting adults.

Ugh, I know this is a super unpopular opinion here, but opposing kink-shaming is something I'm passionate about, because I've seen the harm it can do, and the good that can come from damaged people indulging in kinks that many would consider repugnant.

 

[WereSalamander]

Kinks like rape and incest role play, as well as age play, are often used by consenting adults to process and move beyond real abuse they have suffered. I am someone who has absolutely used kink to process and work through trauma I have suffered in this way. So I'm deeply opposed to kink-shaming, and anyone criticizing consenting adults for whatever fantasies they choose to involve themselves with sexually.

Now, I don't imagine anyone is using loli fetish anime to process trauma; but it's still fiction created by and for consenting adults. You look at rape or incest role play porn, I vibe you, and wonder if you happen to be a survivor of abuse. Regardless, I don't for a second fear that you're engaging with those acts in real life. But you look at videos of someone being sexually assaulted, and you're tacitly supporting the abuse of an unwilling victim, and need to be held accountable. That's how I feel about lolicon media. If no children are being harmed, I've got no beef with consenting adults.

Ugh, I know this is a super unpopular opinion here, but opposing kink-shaming is something I'm passionate about, because I've seen the harm it can do, and the good that can come from damaged people indulging in kinks that many would consider repugnant.

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This sounds fair, at least for people like you. But I really doubt the wide majority of the people in anime communities who love those things are victims like you.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

opposing kink-shaming is something I'm passionate about

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lmao

 

[Cyberclops]

I can't even defend watching anime in general.

 

[LazyLain]

I can kinda see the "liking loli doesn't make you pedo" argument from the standpoint of anime being low detail and highly stylized, leading to most characters (including many lolis) being fairly age-vague.

Many loli character designs could pass as a petite young adult. I've certainly known several adults who'd almost certainly look like lolis or shonen protagonists if they were turned into anime characters.

And if you've delved into the world of hentai, you're bound to come across certain artists who draw characters that look much more explicitly like actual children than the average loli characters you find in popular anime do. There's no defending that shit.

 

[Mekanos]

Banning people rationalizing child porn is, in its own way, the greatest form of kinkshaming.