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jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,998
NYC
Basically how I feel and why the single player stuff intrigues me so much. I think putting these mechanics into a deterministic puzzle context opens it up a LOT. I also believe that if they fully embraced that, even if it meant going entirely into a spinoff game, they could make it more interactive in really compelling ways.

I admit I'm also bitter because I LOVE everything they're doing with the setting of Whitespire within the world of Dota, but... the game is so boring to me that I just... can't enjoy the vast majority of my time with it.

that's the real kick in the pants

artifact died immediately but valve had plenty of resources to day one a auto chess iOS app and then launch a robust system of extras around it

like damn... imagine if they tried that instead of reskinning the market place and hoping for the best. thankfully it seems like the auto chess fad is over, and artifact 2.0 is coming with a mobile emphasis.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
that's the real kick in the pants

artifact died immediately but valve had plenty of resources to day one a auto chess iOS app and then launch a robust system of extras around it

like damn... imagine if they tried that instead of reskinning the market place and hoping for the best. thankfully it seems like the auto chess fad is over, and artifact 2.0 is coming with a mobile emphasis.
Yes!! If nothing else, the way they've handled Underlords makes me a lot more optimistic about Artifact's relaunch than I was before.

Now it just comes down to public reception. Here's hopin'!
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,111
Yes!! If nothing else, the way they've handled Underlords makes me a lot more optimistic about Artifact's relaunch than I was before.

Now it just comes down to public reception. Here's hopin'!

Man, I may be the exact opposite. Between the horrible implementation of the underlords and them seemingly not knowing at all what to do with them and the terrible cosmetics it makes slightly more worried about changes in artifact 2.0.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
Man, I may be the exact opposite. Between the horrible implementation of the underlords and them seemingly not knowing at all what to do with them and the terrible cosmetics it makes slightly more worried about changes in artifact 2.0.
I just meant the constant support.

Underlords is part of a bad genre, so there's not really any saving the gameplay.
 

Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
A bunch of previous posts from me mentioning how I find it extremely boring feels like enough of an explanation as to why I think it's bad.

Well that doesn't really mean the genre is bad though? I find FPS like Doom extremely tedious but that doesn't mean the games, let alone the genre is outright bad?
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
Well that doesn't really mean the genre is bad though? I find FPS like Doom extremely tedious but that doesn't mean the games, let alone the genre is outright bad?
If I didn't think the genre was bad I wouldn't have said it. Opinions, etc. If a game ever comes out in the genre that changes my mind, I'll update my opinion accordingly.
 
MO(O)NDAY

gutshot

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,439
Toscana, Italy
It's happening!! https://steamcommunity.com/games/583950/announcements/detail/2102558993190369211

This week we wanted to talk about the Artifact Beta 2.0, what it will include, and when it will happen.

We've been focusing on gameplay changes first. The biggest change is zooming out to allow players access to all three lanes at once. The majority of effects still work on individual lanes so they still maintain their identity, but it's less likely that a player will get shut out in the same way they used to.

We've also focused on making the game easier to pick up. We aren't selling cards, so you won't face an opponent with a stacked deck. We've also added a new draft mode, Hero Draft, that gives you a taste of constructing decks without all the pressure.

The beta will exist as a new executable and access will be granted to individual accounts. When we are ready to send out invites we will let you know the process.

Here's the current road-map:
  1. Test boring stuff <- We are here
  2. Trickle out invites, starting with players of the original release (ramping up similar to Dota 2)
  3. Work on the Beta, eventually transitioning to an open beta
  4. Leave Beta (hopefully quicker than Dota 2)


FAQ:
Q. I didn't play the original. If I buy the original game now, will I be able to get in?
A. No, we will prioritize people who purchased before today's date.

Q. I played the original, will I have access to my stats, cards, decks, etc. from the original game?
A. In the new version cards are unlocked through play. Individual cards are likely to have been changed, removed, or brand new; so old decks and stats wouldn't be valid.

Q. Can I buy cards/packs in the Beta?
A. We have some ideas about what we'd like to sell, but none of them are cards/packs.

Q. I'm a member of the press, a celebrity, a streamer, an influencer, a pro gamer, etc. Can I get in?
A. Selection will be mostly random. So… maybe?
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,111
As long as the general feel and flow of the game sticks around I'm ready for most changes. I think they need to nail the progression and really focus on the tourney and ranking aspect and the fan base will get there eventually. Let it always feel like people are playing toward something or for something and people will get invested.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 2802

Community Resetter
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
33,729
Q. I played the original, will I have access to my stats, cards, decks, etc. from the original game?
A. In the new version cards are unlocked through play. Individual cards are likely to have been changed, removed, or brand new; so old decks and stats wouldn't be valid.

Q. Can I buy cards/packs in the Beta?
A. We have some ideas about what we'd like to sell, but none of them are cards/packs.
Market crash incoming
 

jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,998
NYC
3 lanes played at once?

That means the iOS-at-launch rumor was true. That's good, at least. This game would die again so fast if they didn't prioritize a mobile app at launch.
 

Won

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,426
Woo, excited and anxious at the same time.

I hope this time things go better.

At least they take things slower with an actual beta phase. Which might be both a good and a bad thing.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
Hero Draft sounds like Runeterra's expeditions, big meh from me there.

I'm excited but I guess our currently owned cards are completely valueless now? Doesn't sound like there's any plan to transfer anything to the new version or give any bonuses.
 

LightBang

Member
Mar 16, 2018
1,422
I love the answer to the last question, streamers and the like did no favors to the game.

If the zoom out is the biggest gameplay change, it seems they won't touch it much. Which is great news, the bigger problems lie in other places.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
All three lanes at once will be... different to the current game, but I don't think that's necessarily bad. It has the potential to be a very interesting change. Beyond that, yey for news. That said, negative reviews are already starting to hit because of the potential worthlessness of the cards. Just read a negative review from someone with over 1500 hours in the game which was just basically "Muh cards are worthless now? Valve need to respond and make this right!". Like, 4-figure hours in the game? Fuck off, you got your money's worth on the cards.

Edit: I do hope they'll allow trading of cards now the monetary aspect is being removed. I'd love to get my wife into it, but I can't see her (or anyone, honestly) being able to stomach playing without "good" cards, when the potential is there to have someone trade you two of everything.
 
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Lyng

Editor at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,206
As long as the general feel and flow of the game sticks around I'm ready for most changes. I think they need to nail the progression and really focus on the tourney and ranking aspect and the fan base will get there eventually. Let it always feel like people are playing toward something or for something and people will get invested.

This is pretty much how I feel. I really want Artifact to work out, because the core game is so good.
Tried to get Into LoR but its just not for me.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 2802

Community Resetter
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
33,729
f7a59415a2e591c3b2617356ef885117d8715f29.png
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
It kind of concerns me they don't have Card art already. They had future expansions designed but never commissioned artwork for it?
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,111
It kind of concerns me they don't have Card art already. They had future expansions designed but never commissioned artwork for it?

They might have scrapped everything, or art is the very last thing they do in case of changes. There was still temp art and temp cards that didn't make it all the way up to release of the game from talks from streamers that played in beta.

I would also assume this 2.0 stuff isn't all that close. I would assume a whole lot of work wasn't really being done with the game up until near the release of Underlords at least that's what reports and rumors seemed to suggest.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
Wow. It certainly doesn't seem like they are simplifying gameplay at all, if those cards are anything to go by.

Simplifying gameplay isn't synonymous with less mechanics, just easier to understand mechanics. Like, D&D 2nd would've been simplified a lot by just changing THAC0 to something normal people could understand. With these cards, I instinctively knew what "rooted" was without it explicitly being explained - "With the increased amount of movement in the game, a cheap blocker like this little guy can really gum up your opponent's plans!" doesn't actually say what rooted is - which is a damn sight better than Silence/Stun/Disarm.

Interesting that stats have been scaled back by 60% or so. I guess with Cross Lane, that needs to happen to prevent games being over in 5 minutes.
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,111
I feel like this small post goes a long way of addressing concerns the "founding" audience had with the first news. They were worried about not getting anything special for their cards and money and they were worried the game would change too much. This seems like they specifically addressed those concerns and wrapped it into news with a look at new cards. Seems smart. But their looking for feedback seems weird with us knowing nothing outside of these cards tho... unless they're just wanting to point out ahead of time that they will be listening to the audience throughout the process.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
It kind of concerns me they don't have Card art already. They had future expansions designed but never commissioned artwork for it?
They're calling it a beta for a reason. Dota 2 was exactly like this when it went into beta. They're talking it slow.

This is a very good thing.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
They're calling it a beta for a reason. Dota 2 was exactly like this when it went into beta. They're talking it slow.

This is a very good thing.
I wouldn't call it a good thing, just a thing. I understand that it's a beta (although it's not that comparable to DotA2, this is a game that was released and is going back to beta) but it means that despite there being multiple expansions designed back when the game originally launched they probably didn't have artwork commissioned. Like they knew they were going to make Mirana and Wraith King cards years ago. Card games don't work in Valve time. Look at Riot, they've got an expansion ready to go within four months of public beta. Magic expansions are done years ahead of time, including artwork. That's the kind of speed the market demands.

I mean maybe the artwork is all more or less finished and they just didn't want to implement it into actual cards. I hope to be wrong here. It's just a little worrying.
 

Twig

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,486
You're assuming these cards are part of the immediate follow up expansion(s). You're assuming that art is ready before game mechanics are set in stone.

Stuff like art is generally the last thing to get super polished in game dev. No point in wasting time on art if the mechanic isn't going to be used.

Anyway, yes, it's definitely a good thing. They're not rushing into things this time, making too many assumptions, without taking time to test the waters. This is a VERY good thing.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
I'm making assumptions based on how other card games are developed (digital or not). They wouldn't show off cards from three sets in the future unless they're very stupid (hard to tell with Valve). Art is developed alongside cards and still months ahead of time. And there's plenty of art that's commissioned and then cards/mechanics change. Magic has a whole collection of them, they just save them for future cards. Like they should have had at least an expansion's worth of art ready from back in 2018, but I suspect they don't.

This isn't just game dev, it's GaaS and card game dev. They screwed up badly last time. Not having a consistent content pipeline is going to kill this again immediately. Hopefully it's just Valve weirdness.
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,111
I'm making assumptions based on how other card games are developed (digital or not). They wouldn't show off cards from three sets in the future unless they're very stupid (hard to tell with Valve). Art is developed alongside cards and still months ahead of time. And there's plenty of art that's commissioned and then cards/mechanics change. Magic has a whole collection of them, they just save them for future cards. Like they should have had at least an expansion's worth of art ready from back in 2018, but I suspect they don't.

This isn't just game dev, it's GaaS and card game dev. They screwed up badly last time. Not having a consistent content pipeline is going to kill this again immediately. Hopefully it's just Valve weirdness.

Slay the spire still had temp art while the game was basically released. Artifact had temp art literally right before release. I remember with some cards specifically like cheating death most streamers just didn't think the game would make launch or would be changed because the mechanic seemed off and the art wasn't final. There were even cards that were in the game right up to release that didn't make release that were talked about in vague terms by streamers. You're assuming too much about art.

Hell Artfact even had art changes after release with Crack the Whip lol They could very well have the art commissioned and made in some cases, but like we saw with Artifact and even with LoR a lot of times the cards actual art is a small piece of a big piece of art. I'm sure they commission a lot of art and find what works best with which cards and not necessarily commission one specific piece of art for each card.
 

Won

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,426
Plenty of devs have shown their prototype cards. It provides a bit of insight in the process and it is usually, you know, funny.

It's ok to have fun. Especially in such weird times.
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,111
s18o53sfa4121.png


Original Beta Rix art.

I'm trying to find the old look of the hero cards even. There was a lot of half glimpses of stuff early on that we were clammering for for a while. I remember the artifact card creator using a lot of the placeholder art that was spotted before a lot of the game was seen, but having trouble seeing a lot of that now. Basically all of this stuff was used all the way up to the pax reveal stuff.
 

ZeroX

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,266
Speed Force
Slay the spire still had temp art while the game was basically released. Artifact had temp art literally right before release. I remember with some cards specifically like cheating death most streamers just didn't think the game would make launch or would be changed because the mechanic seemed off and the art wasn't final. There were even cards that were in the game right up to release that didn't make release that were talked about in vague terms by streamers. You're assuming too much about art.

Hell Artfact even had art changes after release with Crack the Whip lol They could very well have the art commissioned and made in some cases, but like we saw with Artifact and even with LoR a lot of times the cards actual art is a small piece of a big piece of art. I'm sure they commission a lot of art and find what works best with which cards and not necessarily commission one specific piece of art for each card.
Slay the Spire isn't really a fair comparison. It's a single player game with I believe a single artist that wasn't expected to be updated like a service game. Also uh, the art sucks. So I wouldn't use that game as an example of much.

Like Artifact having temp art right before release isn't a good thing lol. It shows how woefully unprepared they were and most beta members were very confused at how little Valve changed the game based on feedback (they basically outright ignored everything?).

I would love to be wrong and hope that Valve learned their lesson.
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,111
Slay the Spire isn't really a fair comparison. It's a single player game with I believe a single artist that wasn't expected to be updated like a service game. Also uh, the art sucks. So I wouldn't use that game as an example of much.

Like Artifact having temp art right before release isn't a good thing lol. It shows how woefully unprepared they were and most beta members were very confused at how little Valve changed the game based on feedback (they basically outright ignored everything?).

I would love to be wrong and hope that Valve learned their lesson.

I'm more just saying the art doesn't really signify anything. You just seem to be putting too much emphasis and weight on the art. They don't have final art so they must have learned nothing? All rumors and talk was that they threw everything they originally planned and created out the window basically and started fresh. Most of the artifact team went to work on Underlords and just came back to the team recently. It makes sense that they wouldn't just throw up art they already had if nothing is final or they're not sure on the route they're going yet.

Artifact had a lot of lore and emphasis put on the art, if they want to decide to go a specific route it can probably change decisions with art choices.
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,111
I was a proponent of RNG, but I'm absolutely loving everything I'm reading.

Seems subtly massive:
  • Deploying a hero on top of another hero will bounce the old hero to deploy next turn.
 
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RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,111
Seems weird to throw these in at the end..


  • Armor works differently from the base game.
  • Tower health is dependent upon the game mode.
 

Won

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,426
Sounds...a bit overly complicated at first glance.

It does address various porblems the game had, so looking forward getting my hands on this.

Looks a little more dota too.
 
Feb 16, 2018
2,680
random spawns + arrows was kind of nonsense because you had a limited amount of time to decide on your plays. if there was no timelimit it might be okay, but people can't process that much randomness and arithmetic that fast

didn't read too many details about the changes, but they seem like they're going in the right direction
 

Deleted member 28523

User requested account closure
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Oct 31, 2017
2,911
Seems weird to throw these in at the end..


  • Armor works differently from the base game.
  • Tower health is dependent upon the game mode.

well the three most commonly cited problems with the game where the economy, the RNG, and the game length. So I expect a Knockout mode ala Dota Underlords.

These changes sound good. I'm really hoping there are a metric shitton of new cards tho. Like +300. That's what stuff like Hearthstone and Magic have over it. Just the sheer amount of diversity. Maybe that's too much to expect tho.
 

DiscoShark

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
479
These changes sound good. I'm really hoping there are a metric shitton of new cards tho. Like +300. That's what stuff like Hearthstone and Magic have over it. Just the sheer amount of diversity. Maybe that's too much to expect tho.

Honestly I don't expect there'll need to be a bunch of new cards, they revealed a lot of revamped effects for the existing set with this blog post. It's gonna feel like a new game regardless. Timbersaw in particular has a VERY cool effect with this new setup.
 

RepairmanJack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,111
Think about Bounty Hunter with the new deploy mechanics. Get a hero with mobility and deploy him on top of BH sending him back to fountain and he basically gets his deploy buff every round. After your mobile hero gets deployed then just move them where you want them.

I'm really liking what they're showing off so far.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,956
Ooof... That 5 slot limit is something I was hoping wasn't true from the rumours. But I'll manage... Like...

mmmm that sounds pretty good. i hope they keep pushing towards board game and less curvey ccg.

Yeah, if I played a boardgame with a 5 slot limit, I'd accept it no problems, it's just the part of me comparing 2.0 to CCGs that's a bit put off.