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Oct 25, 2017
2,937
If they follow the Nintendo paradigm, that means they need to go back into making games fulltime for their platform . Considering their heavy half life vr inspired demo I think Freeman will be here soon to push the new hardware.
They need to go back into development cause as the market moves right now exclusives are the differentiation point between competitors. Consoles where like that always , but now everyone is doing it in the PC space.
While there is plenty of store lockout to be had in the PC space in both the 2D and VR arenas, there is no headset lockout as long as Revive is around. While I haven't purchased anything on the Oculus store by choice, I regularly enjoy playing Bullet Train and Dirt Rally without a problem on my Vive. The Index will be the same.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,260
While there is plenty of store lockout to be had in the PC space in both the 2D and VR arenas, there is no headset lockout as long as Revive is around. While I haven't purchased anything on the Oculus store by choice, I regularly enjoy playing Bullet Train and Dirt Rally without a problem on my Vive. The Index will be the same.

That's not completely true. Games have to be supported manually by Revive. Stuff like Jeff Minter's Polybius and MaV1 don't work outside of Oculus because Revive doesn't support them (and Minter/Giles Time is worse than Valve time. They promised SteamVR support at the start of the year and they're still puttering around on the patches). Plus, the guy who ran Revive was hired by Epic.

Maybe OpenXR will be the answer in the future, but it seems to have become heavily politicized, so who knows if Oculus will still lock others out.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,443
That's not completely true. Games have to be supported manually by Revive. Stuff like Jeff Minter's Polybius and MaV1 don't work outside of Oculus because Revive doesn't support them (and Minter/Giles Time is worse than Valve time. They promised SteamVR support at the start of the year and they're still puttering around on the patches). Plus, the guy who ran Revive was hired by Epic.

Maybe OpenXR will be the answer in the future, but it seems to have become heavily politicized, so who knows if Oculus will still lock others out.
Whaaaat
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,937
That's not completely true. Games have to be supported manually by Revive. Stuff like Jeff Minter's Polybius and MaV1 don't work outside of Oculus because Revive doesn't support them (and Minter/Giles Time is worse than Valve time. They promised SteamVR support at the start of the year and they're still puttering around on the patches). Plus, the guy who ran Revive was hired by Epic.

Maybe OpenXR will be the answer in the future, but it seems to have become heavily politicized, so who knows if Oculus will still lock others out.
Yay for open sourcing on Github, I guess? It may sound blase' - especially coming from a layman who doesn't code - but I'm not really worried about Revive dying. Unless you know something I don't, the VR community is probably too stubborn (and too tech savvy) to let Oculus/Facebook win here.

What do you mean about OpenXR becoming policized?
 

LaserBits

Member
Jan 27, 2018
103
While there is plenty of store lockout to be had in the PC space in both the 2D and VR arenas, there is no headset lockout as long as Revive is around. While I haven't purchased anything on the Oculus store by choice, I regularly enjoy playing Bullet Train and Dirt Rally without a problem on my Vive. The Index will be the same.
Oculus already has an exclusive store and when they release the console like headset more locked games will come along to promote the hardware.
I'm sure steam would like a free for all headsets approach but as things are going now this will not be the case. In this war they must have a way to respond .

If they really want to go the Nintendo way , exclusives are a must. Not necessarily headset exclusives but store exclusives.
 

LaserBits

Member
Jan 27, 2018
103
Lets start with their current games first. They have 3 on the way, and they aren't demos like you're thinking. They are full AAA games.
You missed my point. I didn't say they don't have games on the way. I just mentioned that demo just to say that my belief is that more games and probably HFVr are on the way, designed around their hardware . This is the logical way to go if they truly are trying to replicate the nintendo model.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,260
Yay for open sourcing on Github, I guess? It may sound blase' - especially coming from a layman who doesn't code - but I'm not really worried about Revive dying. Unless you know something I don't, the VR community is probably too stubborn (and too tech savvy) to let Oculus/Facebook win here.

What do you mean about OpenXR becoming policized?

Nothing more than a weird feeling. Maybe I'm wrong. It just seems odd that Valve essentially donated the framework for OpenXR (like AMD with Khronos) and suddenly with their latest press release (during GDC), there was a quote from all the big players (MS, Epic, Oculus, etc), yet not a single quote from Valve. It's been known from the beginning that Facebook was lobbying to have implementation be in a way that still allowed them to lock their games out from SteamVR headsets, and with a bunch of allies that are all competing against Valve, I don't really get the sense things went the way Valve wanted them to (true openness). Maybe I'm wrong, though.

There was also a recent thread on the Vive reddit about the Dolphin emulator solving a motion+ emulation and wanting to support it through OpenXR input (just the input... not actual VR support). And then somebody mentioned it might not work with all VR systems, because one of the players might not be fulling supporting it at the API level. They didn't say who wouldn't be fully playing nice with it, but why are we even at that point? That was the whole point. To get rid of the politics and make it truly open (and consumer friendly for whatever HMD you buy). I just don't get the sense this happened the way we hoped.
 

DarthBuzzard

Banned
Jul 17, 2018
5,122
You missed my point. I didn't say they don't have games on the way. I just mentioned that demo just to say that my belief is that more games and probably HFVr are on the way, designed around their hardware . This is the logical way to go if they truly are trying to replicate the nintendo model.
Well that got a bit confusing because you mentioned a Half LIfe themed VR demo, which there isn't. The Lab and Moondust are the only demos Valve have made. The former is set in aperture and the latter is only for developers anyway.

You are probably thinking of Boneworks which is not a Valve game.
 

I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,542
Is it reveal time yet? No, no it is not. :(
I don't know how you do timers on the forum but the current theory is that the pre-orders will go live at 10:00am on the 1st.

If you're talking about the Index, they charged immediately for pre-orders on the Steam controller. So they've treated hardware differently in the past.

Which, honestly, is what's beginning to piss me off about this whole thing. We don't know the price. We don't know the specs. We're not getting any real leaks that suggest press are out there right now. How's this going to go? Articles/specs are going to release the moment pre-orders go live? And if you have the gumption to want to read what you're actually buying, then you go down the pre-order list? I also hate that you'll probably have to give them money immediately, for hardware that's going to ship who knows when. It's leaving a bad taste in my mouth, so this hardware better blow me away.
I'm guessing that sometime around 9am PST or earlier, the press embargo will lift. So we'll get articles and videos with impressions and specs then. Maybe even the pre-sale store pages will go live. Then actual pre-orders will go live at 10am PST. That's what I'm hoping at least. I do think it would be shitty to drop the embargo and make the pre-orders live at the same time, but I personally think it was also a mistake to leave everyone speculating with zero info for an entire month so who knows.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,443
Press embargo lifting early Wednesday followed by the store page updating for pre-orders makes a lot of sense, but that theory does make me think they won't announce games. That seems like such an anti-climactic way to do it — even Artifact was (unwisely) announced with a teaser at an event viewed by millions.
 

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,087
Why is everyone so sure it will be up the 1st of May. They said new news in May, not at the beginning of May.
 

Paganmoon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,586
Why is everyone so sure it will be up the 1st of May. They said new news in May, not at the beginning of May.
I got into the thread to post just that. Where did the 1:St of May date come from anyway? Wishful thinking?
ValveIndex subreddit basically got a timer up for it.

Because they announced it to be on 1st of May (reveal and preorders)

Afaik they haven't announced anything yet. Got a source for the date? I don't recall seeing any date on the very bare page they had up. Just May 2019.

Edit: I really really hate the iPhone keyboard. JFC.
 
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TheTrain

Member
Oct 27, 2017
610
I got into the thread to post just that. Where did the 1:St of May date come from anyway? Wishful thinking?
ValveIndex subreddit basically got a timer up for it.
It was (Is?) on the teaser page for the Index

Edit - The Bellevue, Washington, game maker quietly said it's going to start preorders for its own VR headset, called Valve Index, on May 1. Valve said the new device will be sold alongside the company's new "knuckles" controllers that allow for better control of VR games and apps.

https://www.cnet.com/news/valve-ind...ng-in-june-to-take-on-playstation-and-oculus/
 

abracadaver

Banned
Nov 30, 2017
1,469

eonden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,087
Oh nice, thanks for the info abracadaver and TheTrain :D ! I do not work that day so perfect.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
We know they are doing the reveal May 1st, and they are shipping June 15. As for them selling out preorders super quickly, I wouldn't count on it. I mean, VR fans have headsets already, they'd have to announce something super impressive to convince more than a few super fans to buy another headset, especially at what will likely be a higher price, and using external sensors.
I don't agree with this.

This looks to be an enthusiast device, and like "core" games those tend to have sales clustered at launch. However, unlike games, you can't just build your production pipeline to satisfy that initial demand, because that will be oversized for the ongoing production later. So unless you stockpile for many months -- which I doubt happened in this case, and is also expensive in terms of storage -- it's pretty likely that there will be initial shortages. (Which doesn't necessarily mean that pre-orders will sell out, just that they will be fulfilled later)

Unless the HMD disappoints on some fundamental level (i.e. a Rift S scenario), or is very expensive (i.e. a bundle price of 800+) I feel like there are more than enough early VR adopters looking for an upgrade after 3 years and PC gamers looking to get into VR now to cause some availablity issues around launch.

What I'm curious about is how many (if any) more controllers they made compared to HMDs, since I'm sure there are a lot of Vive (or Vive Pro) owners looking to get just those.
 

1-D_FE

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,260
I don't agree with this.

This looks to be an enthusiast device, and like "core" games those tend to have sales clustered at launch. However, unlike games, you can't just build your production pipeline to satisfy that initial demand, because that will be oversized for the ongoing production later. So unless you stockpile for many months -- which I doubt happened in this case, and is also expensive in terms of storage -- it's pretty likely that there will be initial shortages. (Which doesn't necessarily mean that pre-orders will sell out, just that they will be fulfilled later)

Unless the HMD disappoints on some fundamental level (i.e. a Rift S scenario), or is very expensive (i.e. a bundle price of 800+) I feel like there are more than enough early VR adopters looking for an upgrade after 3 years and PC gamers looking to get into VR now to cause some availablity issues around launch.

What I'm curious about is how many (if any) more controllers they made compared to HMDs, since I'm sure there are a lot of Vive (or Vive Pro) owners looking to get just those.

Talking about enthusiasm among the hard-core, the Valve Index reddit actually has significantly more subscribers than the Oculus Quest reddit. The huger is real.

I actually think the lighthouse 2.0's are also intriguing from an inventory POV. The Vive Pro, Pimax, and other botique HMDs all support 2.0. I wonder how Valve is calculating demand from that audience. Because the last thing they want to do is run short of Lighthouses because non-Index purchasers have made a run on them. I guess they could just limit the number available, but if they're gonna do that, they need to also do HMD/Lighthouse bundles. Cause they wouldn't want to lock out people looking at Index for sims.
 

Afrikan

Member
Oct 28, 2017
16,990
Is there a general idea how much this might cost?

My co-worker asked me which VR headset to get...and after she explained how she planned to play... I thought the Samsung Odyssey+ (which I own) would be best, especially because she didn't want to spend too much and the Odyssey+ was on sale again for $299.

But with Windows mixed reality headsets, sometimes you have to adjust to the control interface of games made for SteamVR or Oculus.

I love my Odyssey+, but I would think a Steam VR headset would be much more user friendly..and would be great if it had similar base inside out tracking like Windows Mixed Reality headsets. And it came with controllers.

I don't think her purchase has shipped yet. Wondering if I should tell her to cancel it for this.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
Is there a general idea how much this might cost?
Only (educated) guesses.

Mine is that the whole package won't cost less than 499 USD and won't cost more than 699 USD (barring some wild high-end tech in the HMD).

The price floor is higher than for something like a WMR HMD or Rift S since the two base stations add quite a bit to the production costs. And of course the controllers are more advanced than anything else out there.
 

Aztechnology

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
14,139
Only (educated) guesses.

Mine is that the whole package won't cost less than 499 USD and won't cost more than 699 USD (barring some wild high-end tech in the HMD).

The price floor is higher than for something like a WMR HMD or Rift S since the two base stations add quite a bit to the production costs. And of course the controllers are more advanced than anything else out there.
I get the feeling the index/knuckle controllers will be $299. If we're lucky $199.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,443
I'd place the price somewhere in the $600-800 range. I agree with $150 for the controllers, probably bundled with a game — one of Valve's if ready, otherwise Boneworks.
 

Flandy

Community Resettler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,445
I had a dream the complete bundle was $599 and sold out after 15 minutes
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
My guess: the controllers won't go on sale separately at all, at first. They'll keep them as something you can only get with an Index, similar to how you can't get the Lighthouse 2.0's without a Vive Pro
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
My guess: the controllers won't go on sale separately at all, at first. They'll keep them as something you can only get with an Index, similar to how you can't get the Lighthouse 2.0's without a Vive Pro
I don't think that's likely, for two reasons:
  • Vive/Pro/Pimax etc. owners would be disappointed. Now you could say that these don't matter, but I don't think so. You don't want enthusiasts to have an immediate negative reaction to part of a launch like this.
  • More importantly and significantly, the leaked store pages and database entries included individual lighthouses, the controllers, the HMD, and a bundle.
 

Setsune

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,649
It's probably best to get the 2.0 Lighthouses with the bundle, right? Rather than trying to stick with the 1.0s I have from my launch Vive? I doubt it'd be that cost-effective compared to whatever bundle they have.
 

dsk1210

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,392
Edinburgh UK
It's probably best to get the 2.0 Lighthouses with the bundle, right? Rather than trying to stick with the 1.0s I have from my launch Vive? I doubt it'd be that cost-effective compared to whatever bundle they have.

Probably best getting the full bundle so you can sell the old Vive as a full bundle as well and recoup some cash easily, I am going to pick up the full bundle so my son can have the Vive bundle.
 

WhtR88t

Member
May 14, 2018
4,587
I really like the rumored specs of this headset, but after owning a Rift, Vive and PSVR, I can't wait for everything to become inside out tracking. Setting up sensors all over the room isn't awesome (even with just 2 of the Lighthouses it's still a pain)- I just want to be able to plug a single cable into my PC and go.
 

Setsune

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,649
Probably best getting the full bundle so you can sell the old Vive as a full bundle as well and recoup some cash easily, I am going to pick up the full bundle so my son can have the Vive bundle.

I was thinking that too. I don't know how much I'll get out of it, but anything is better than it sitting around in a dusty box.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,020
Obviously no-one knows the full details yet, but assuming that the rumors are true, and it's a 135° headset with nothing particularly remarkable about it (wireless, eye tracking, significantly increased resolution etc.) other than general improvements over first-generation headsets like the Vive/Rift, is there going to be much reason to choose this over something like a Pimax, other than price?

I'm thinking now might be a good time to get into VR, but it seems like the Pimax has a significantly wider FOV, and OLED displays rather than LCD.
For current Pimax owners: is there anything that this could do which would have you thinking of replacing the headset with an Index?

The controllers seem the like they're probably the most exciting thing here, but a lot of this depends on price. I could see an Index bundle being half the price of a Pimax 5K XR plus Index controllers.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
I'm thinking $800 is the low end.


That's a rather old quote.
I don't think anyone expects Valve to go after the $300 and lower market, but there's a big range between that and $800. I don't see that price happening unless it has some absolutely fantastic technology.

Obviously no-one knows the full details yet, but assuming that the rumors are true, and it's a 135° headset with nothing particularly remarkable about it (wireless, eye tracking, significantly increased resolution etc.) other than general improvements over first-generation headsets like the Vive/Rift, is there going to be much reason to choose this over something like a Pimax, other than price?

I'm thinking now might be a good time to get into VR, but it seems like the Pimax has a significantly wider FOV, and OLED displays rather than LCD.
For current Pimax owners: is there anything that this could do which would have you thinking of replacing the headset with an Index?

The controllers seem the like they're probably the most exciting thing here, but a lot of this depends on price. I could see an Index bundle being half the price of a Pimax 5K XR plus Index controllers.
Pimax doesn't do a particularly great job of using the rendered resolution, so it's very likely that you get better perceived image quality with the same rendering res/FoV in the Index as in the Pimax. Also, the 5k XR, with 1440p pentile displays over its large FoV isn't great from a SDE PoV.

But really, as a Pimax owner, the primary reason I'd consider a full Index bundle is software quality/convenience and build quality.
And pricing of course.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,020
Pimax doesn't do a particularly great job of using the rendered resolution, so it's very likely that you get better perceived image quality with the same rendering res/FoV in the Index as in the Pimax. Also, the 5k XR, with 1440p pentile displays over its large FoV isn't great from a SDE PoV.

But really, as a Pimax owner, the primary reason I'd consider a full Index bundle is software quality/convenience and build quality.
And pricing of course.
Thanks for the feedback. In all likelihood, if I'm getting into VR now, it will be the Index - especially if they have a good price for a bundle with controllers and base stations - but headsets like the Pimax seem tempting for that FOV even if it does mean far lower pixel density.
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,443
That's a rather old quote.
I don't think anyone expects Valve to go after the $300 and lower market, but there's a big range between that and $800. I don't see that price happening unless it has some absolutely fantastic technology.
Supposedly that quote is from last week, not the Newell quote from years ago about price reduction being bad.
 

Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
Obviously no-one knows the full details yet, but assuming that the rumors are true, and it's a 135° headset with nothing particularly remarkable about it (wireless, eye tracking, significantly increased resolution etc.) other than general improvements over first-generation headsets like the Vive/Rift, is there going to be much reason to choose this over something like a Pimax, other than price?

I'm thinking now might be a good time to get into VR, but it seems like the Pimax has a significantly wider FOV, and OLED displays rather than LCD.
For current Pimax owners: is there anything that this could do which would have you thinking of replacing the headset with an Index?

The controllers seem the like they're probably the most exciting thing here, but a lot of this depends on price. I could see an Index bundle being half the price of a Pimax 5K XR plus Index controllers.

Pimax doesn't even register on Valve's and Oculus' radar, it is most definitely not a consumer product, and especially not for first time VR buyers. It's still very much an enthusiast only and developer only prototype. The lenses they've used require an obscene amount of adjustment points (a very fine grain tilt, relief, and ideally independent IPD) to avoid inducing significant eye strain and distortion. The product they actually ship you has a grand total of none of that, and I would guess only a very very small minority of the general population can actually use the product over longer sessions with any semblance comfort. Most owners are 3D printing adapters that allow them to attach the Vive Deluxe Audio Strap and buying thicker foams made for the Vive's or Odyssey's to replace the the facial interface. These modification just make the product usable, not necessarily great or ideal. That's without even getting into the alpha level software that is prone to crashing and freezing, straight up doesn't work with a number of experiences, or requires toggling a performance sapping compatibility mode that requires reboots between.
 
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Akronis

Prophet of Regret - Lizard Daddy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,451
Obviously no-one knows the full details yet, but assuming that the rumors are true, and it's a 135° headset with nothing particularly remarkable about it (wireless, eye tracking, significantly increased resolution etc.) other than general improvements over first-generation headsets like the Vive/Rift, is there going to be much reason to choose this over something like a Pimax, other than price?

I'm thinking now might be a good time to get into VR, but it seems like the Pimax has a significantly wider FOV, and OLED displays rather than LCD.
For current Pimax owners: is there anything that this could do which would have you thinking of replacing the headset with an Index?

The controllers seem the like they're probably the most exciting thing here, but a lot of this depends on price. I could see an Index bundle being half the price of a Pimax 5K XR plus Index controllers.

Pimax's software solutions are buggy and shit. I got my 8K recently and it's been nothing but a painful experience. I've basically shelved the thing until the Index pre-orders are up. It reminds me of fucking around trying to get my Oculus Rift DK2 working.

EDIT: even more hilarious is that the PiTool service was regularly sucking 10% of my CPU when idle. Really fucking quality software.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
Pimax doesn't even register on Valve's and Oculus' radar, it is most definitely not a consumer product, and especially not for first time VR buyers. It's very much an enthusiast only and developer only prototype. The lenses they've used require an obscene amount of adjustment points (a very fine grain tilt, relief, and ideally independent IPD) to avoid inducing significant eye strain and distortion. The product they actually ship you has a grand total of none of that, and I would guess only a very very small minority of the general population can actually use the product over longer sessions with any semblance comfort. Most owners are 3D printing adapters that allow them to attach the Vive Deluxe Audio Strap and buying thicker foams made for the Vive's or Odyssey's to replace the the facial interface. These modification just make the product usable, not necessarily great or ideal. That's without even getting into the alpha level software that is prone to crashing and freezing, straight up doesn't work with a number of experiences, or requires toggling a performance sapping compatibility mode that requires reboots between.
Do you even have one? It sounds like you don't. Because the lenses have one of the largest sweet spots on the market, it's pretty darn easy to get a sharp, good looking picture without eye strain. And it has physical IPD adjustment as well. Sure, its default headstrap isn't great, but neither is the Vive's default headstrap. For glasses-wearers it's a pain, and I got used to the Oculus built-in headphones, which is why I bought a Vive Deluxe Audio headstrap. But you make it sound like the most godawful product ever released, and it's not nearly that.
 

Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
Do you even have one? It sounds like you don't. Because the lenses have one of the largest sweet spots on the market, it's pretty darn easy to get a sharp, good looking picture without eye strain. And it has physical IPD adjustment as well. Sure, its default headstrap isn't great, but neither is the Vive's default headstrap. For glasses-wearers it's a pain, and I got used to the Oculus built-in headphones, which is why I bought a Vive Deluxe Audio headstrap. But you make it sound like the most godawful product ever released, and it's not nearly that.

I was a backer and have had the 5K+ for several months now. I don't think any of those criticisms are unique or controversial.
 
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