• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Cipherr

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,436
Why can't more people have this same attitude in the other thread as well. As soon as the word lag or latency was uttered, all you heard was "Its shit, it'll never work". But the minute something positive appears, and multiple reporters onsite saying good things, it's let wait and see.


The people playing that game aren't ever going to give this tech an inch. It'll be moved goalposts even when Sony and MS are selling streaming machines to casuals by the truckload. Some enthusiasts are going to take this tech really hard. Nothing you can do about it.
 

doof_warrior

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,431
NJ
Its still much better then an opinion on "feeling" lag. If we can take a off hand impression piece as a close representation of the service, video can be regarded as much higher quality form of evidence that overrides people's memory of their experience.
i actually think impressions of people "feeling" or "not feeling" the lag are way more useful than something like this, which is totally inaccurate and has too many variables to be useful

#s don't matter, it matters how the game feels when played
 

noyram23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,372
Damn that's some good result, I hope our internet will get better so I can actually use these services
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,371
Assuming numbers along those lines manifest for end-users, that's insane. That said, I think the bumps in their methodology may be painting an overly positive result. Though there have been a good number of independent reactions noting how good xCloud has felt, and these are people who've been testing the various other streaming options (and Stadia) for some time.
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,865
Assuming numbers along those lines manifest for end-users, that's insane. There have been a good number of reactions noting how good xCloud has felt, and these are people who've been testing the various other options (and Stadia) for some time.
We need to see performance metrics for non-controlled environments like they have over there at E3. Stadia performance metrics are from real life use cases, so it's not a fair comparison at the moment.
 

Flaurehn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,361
Mexico City
We're talking about a 4 ms difference? Yeah call me skeptical.



Here's what's worse about game streaming:

1. You don't own the game.

3. It's reliant on your internet connection.

But xCloud works with either your owned games or the ones from like gamepass and others?

And so is 4K streaming from Netflix, Amazon, et al and no one complains, if your internet connection is no up to the task, or you have caps I get why is a problem, but is not an universal issue
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
But xCloud works with either your owned games or the ones from like gamepass and others?

And so is 4K streaming from Netflix, Amazon, et al and no one complains, if your internet connection is no up to the task, or you have caps I get why is a problem, but is not an universal issue

If there was 200 ms latency in Netflix or Amazon, it wouldn't even matter, because 99% of the time you're not interacting with it.
 

ShapeGSX

Member
Nov 13, 2017
5,225
It's possible that the video encoder gets access to the frame buffer earlier than the HDMI output.

That could help explain the very short time difference between the two tests.
 

ArchedThunder

Uncle Beerus
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,067
If the in home numbers are actually similar then this is going to be absolutely nuts. No wonder Sony is partnering with them.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,686
Yeah, this test is not accurate. Speed of light is 186,000 miles per second. 400 miles / 186,000 mps = 0.00215s = 2.15ms

So that's already 4.3ms roundtrip assuming the packets are flying at the speed of light.
The test is probably faulty. If the servers are really 400 miles away this is breaking the speed of light lol

Why are you guys assuming rendering and computation time on the server is the same as a regular xbox? It could be significantly less.
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,481
But you are not counting that:

- The server renders the image faster than the local hardware.
- The phone display has less delay than a TV


So it's perfectly possible that even a higher round trip than you are counting can be hidden by the ms they are saving.

And that's not even counting if they ended up using any of their research to hide lag after all
Why are you guys assuming rendering and computation time on the server is the same as a regular xbox? It could be significantly less.
That's a great point! I know the math doesn't work out to needing twice the power for double the frames, but you'd need some serious hardware to make those improvements. Especially when next-gen rolls around. I'm not shooting down the idea, as an engineer myself, I'm deathly curious how they plan on accomplishing this.
 

Deleted member 20284

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,889
I'll wait to see how it goes in Australia on a home or business grade ISP connection and typical real world ISP hops in the middle etc. It's a whole other ball game having controlled hardware, network/data pipes and AAA techs curating a show floor demo. If Stadia and xCloud in fact deliver their claims then I'll eat crow with an avatar bet. However I reserve serious judgement being from Melbourne Australia until I see this running at my location with my ISP(s).

Having something to access when I'm away from my console or PC and playing on the go is a very nice addition to the Xbox family so massive kudos on that front and way more attractive as a bundled package with the Game Pass Ultimate. Th Xbox vision and overall package/execution is far better than Stadia. Kids can jump on to another device while I play on console or vice versa etc. Having a PC, some consoles and some other devices is great to just jump between them. The core of playing will remain the top end xbox console for us though.
 

Prine

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,724
i actually think impressions of people "feeling" or "not feeling" the lag are way more useful than something like this, which is totally inaccurate and has too many variables to be useful

#s don't matter, it matters how the game feels when played
You rather people tell you then seeing for yourself? Because no matter how you want to spin it, thats a broken form of reasoning. We all know the experiment in the article is flawed, but we can witness and gather an idea of responsiveness that is much more accurate then impressions, there's a frame of reference that can be repeated and iterated with the exact same outcome.
 

Alucardx23

Member
Nov 8, 2017
4,713
Their testing is horribly flawed and not controlled. So what you're telling me is H5, which already has a game input lag of 63ms, only has 67ms of lag being streamed? So 4ms is account for roundtrip data, input latency of controller, input latency of screen? You probably couldnt even get a ping of 4ms from LA to SF.

There are no details about this case, but there are real demos out there where it clearly shows how you can greatly reduce latency.

 

MajorVape

Member
Mar 27, 2019
34
In a controlled environment? We don't know the amount of routers, if any, this is jumping through. Bandwidth, etc. Lots of unknowns. 67ms on a mobile device using wireless is exceptionally good but how this performs in the real world...doubtful it will be anywhere near that low.
 

Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,690
While I don't doubt Ars' numbers, I do have doubts about the setup they have at the show. For all we know, it's running off a server backstage and streaming all of 100 yards. None of these "previews" mean anything, we'll have to wait until it's in the hands of real people on real networks with real 'Murican-quality internet.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
I wanna see tests on all kinds of network conditions etc
Yeah. Ping tests to the Azure datacenter from my location show 60ms, then we have controller latency and game latency added to that.
Makes me wonder, what happens if I try to double tap at a direction in a fighting game? Is that even possible?
 

dc3k

Member
Feb 10, 2018
692
not america
While I don't doubt Ars' numbers, I do have doubts about the setup they have at the show. For all we know, it's running off a server backstage and streaming all of 100 yards. None of these "previews" mean anything, we'll have to wait until it's in the hands of real people on real networks with real 'Murican-quality internet.
In the article's comments, they say that the servers were running in the Bay Area. Bay Area to LA ping is generally 20ms in my experience (testing from my fibre connection to an LA server) so I don't believe there's only 4ms additional latency.

edit: that's not to say I don't believe in the tech. I'm sure it's perfectly playable. Just the specifics of 4ms I do not believe are true.
 
Last edited:

Mcfrank

Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,219
Played halo 5 for a bit at fan fest. Felt perfect (as did project stream beta when I tried that). The streaming future is here ladies and gentleman and anyone who argues against it is buying blockbuster stock in 2010.
 

iareharSon

Member
Oct 30, 2017
8,940
Is local basically what I experience doing in home streaming over steamlink? If so, the lag is pretty much not noticeable.
 

jon bones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,024
NYC
Just tried it with Halo 5 at FanFest, felt perfect.
Played halo 5 for a bit at fan fest. Felt perfect (as did project stream beta when I tried that). The streaming future is here ladies and gentleman and anyone who argues against it is buying blockbuster stock in 2010.

that's dope guys, thanks for the impressions

I call BS on this. We'll see how it performs when servers are under stress.

considering the enterprise solutions available, i highly doubt xCloud is the straw that breaks Azure's back
 

Elfforkusu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,098
Using a console on your local network solves most of the problems with streaming. I think MS's approach is on the mark.

(when the use case has to go over WAN, I'm still out)
 

Jedi2016

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,690
Is local basically what I experience doing in home streaming over steamlink? If so, the lag is pretty much not noticeable.
By "local", I assume they're talking about playing directly on the system. I imagine the latency you get from Steam Link is probably higher than what they're advertising here. In my case, that's about twenty feet of hardwired gigabit. I can't directly test latency, though.
 

12Danny123

Member
Jan 31, 2018
1,722
In the article's comments, they say that the servers were running in the Bay Area. Bay Area to LA ping is generally 20ms in my experience (testing from my fibre connection to an LA server) so I don't believe there's only 4ms additional latency.

edit: that's not to say I don't believe in the tech. I'm sure it's perfectly playable. Just the specifics of 4ms I do not believe are true.

It's possible that the game on the server is rendering or playing the game at a faster rate and the result back the device is when it takes into account the latency at a distance.
 

Mcfrank

Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,219
It's possible that the game on the server is rendering or playing the game at a faster rate and the result back the device is when it takes into account the latency at a distance.

It's been a while since I played halo 5, but the load times felt faster playing on xcloud. Could be wrong but that was impression.
 

NoUse4AName

Banned
Feb 5, 2019
385
Yeah. Ping tests to the Azure datacenter from my location show 60ms, then we have controller latency and game latency added to that.
Makes me wonder, what happens if I try to double tap at a direction in a fighting game? Is that even possible?

PsNow and Project Stream works well but not even close to local gamming (At least From LA) ...for me fighting games and any game that requires fast reaction is a NO-NO.

I'm not buying this
 

Garrett 2U

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,511
Amazing how this thread has less than half the posts of the other thread.

Many of the posters who seemed so passionate about XCloud having "noticeable lag", just aren't showing up here.
Jez Corden had a positive impression of XCloud, to the point that specific posters called him a fanboy. And yet people seemed to love to cherry pick his "noticeable lag" comment to completely disregard the service. I wonder if they are back on board now.
 

Mcfrank

Member
Oct 28, 2017
15,219
PsNow and Project Stream works well but not even close to local gamming (At least From LA) ...for me fighting games and any game that requires fast reaction is a NO-NO.

I'm not buying this

Curious about your connection speed because project stream was flawless for me in west side of LA. Felt just like playing assassins creed on a console.
 

Guerrilla

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,236
Yeah, this test is not accurate. Speed of light is 186,000 miles per second. 400 miles / 186,000 mps = 0.00215s = 2.15ms

So that's already 4.3ms roundtrip assuming the packets are flying at the speed of light.
Wouldn't the Data travel while a frame you can't impact anymore anyways is rendering and not after? So at 60fps its 16,7ms per frame, so the 2.15ms of time it takes to go to the server would easily fit into the 16,7ms it takes to render a frame. Of course you would have to add the one way back of 2.15ms but not the one way to the server farm. Or am I missing something?
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,481
Wouldn't the Data travel while a frame you can't impact anymore anyways is rendering and not after? So at 60fps its 16,7ms per frame, so the 2.15ms of time it takes to go to the server would easily fit into the 16,7ms it takes to render a frame. Of course you would have to add the one way back of 2.15ms but not the one way to the server farm. Or am I missing something?
You can't travel during a frame you can't impact anymore. You push frames as fast as you can render them. If you "wait" for in-between, that's adding delay already.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
PsNow and Project Stream works well but not even close to local gamming (At least From LA) ...for me fighting games and any game that requires fast reaction is a NO-NO.

I'm not buying this
With 60ms ping + controller latency etc, would it even be possible to play a platformer or any other game which require precise inputs?
Ori and Hollow Knight? How do you manage to do a double jump with latency?
Even precision aiming in an action game must be tricky, doing a headshot etc on a target that isn't completely still.

I'm just very doubtful right now. I have higher hope for Stadia where the ping at my location was 35ms and the controller itself is connected to the cloud, should make the total amount of latency much less problematic.
 

samred

Amico fun conversationalist
Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,586
Seattle, WA
I was with Kyle when he was reviewing his first clip, and he almost put the numbers down as double the "latency" until realizing he'd recorded in 240fps slow-mo, not 120fps. Our jaws both dropped.

Again, yes, we'll see how this all plays out in the wild with more tests on more smartphones/laptops and more software, but it's not like the devices Kyle used were secretly connected with invisible Ethernet adapters. Like, dang, Microsoft.
 

Garrett 2U

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,511
So that Windows guy that felt the lag lied?

You can notice lag, while it still not having a huge impact on playability. Many gamers play on TVs with high input lag, and still perfectly enjoy their experiences.
If you read his entire opinion, it's blatant that he was really impressed with the experience; some even called him a fanboy. People just highlighted the part where he said there was noticeable lag, as an excuse to discard the service.