Arlo: Star Allies and "Finish Games Later" Approach

[Yukinari]

Arlo goes over his thoughts of the star allies DLC and how he feels about slowly doling out content over months instead of having a content rich game from the start to build on.

I feel like this video is very poignant and speaks to not only myself but others who bought games like mario tennis aces. Hes also not afraid to bring up the value proposition considering these games cost 60 and yet can feel half baked or on par with a 3DS title.

 

[kadotsu]

Let me just say that I hope this trend doesn't continue for Nintendo. If Yoshi's Crafted World is half baked I will be very annoyed. It also is very weird to get the content rich WiiU ports and then these barebones new Switch titles.

 

[AfropunkNyc]

Should of made kirby a online coop mmo'ish type of game with all this late dlc stuff.

 

[Mory Dunz]

Let me just say that I hope this trend doesn't continue for Nintendo. If Yoshi's Crafted World is half baked I will be very annoyed. It also is very weird to get the content rich WiiU ports and then these barebones new Switch titles.

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It will, because it works well financially
Splatoon, Kirby, Mario Tennis, ARMS are all recent games that have done well. They release them early to hit a certain month/window and add in stuff later.


Haven't watched the video yet, but wouldn't Mario Tennis be the better/best main example? that game had like nothing lol

 

[Terraforce]

Haven't watched the video because Arlo's take on SA sounds more like second hand rather than first hand experience. Kirby isn't really a good example of this as the updates since launch, while nice and provide hours more of content, they aren't that substantial. Surely not enough to call a game half finished.

 

[New Fang]

Arlo is my favorite Nintendo YouTuber because he's just honest about what he thinks, without being dramatic about it.

Let me just say that I hope this trend doesn't continue for Nintendo. If Yoshi's Crafted World is half baked I will be very annoyed. It also is very weird to get the content rich WiiU ports and then these barebones new Switch titles.

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It's absolutely going to continue. Voices in the games media as well on forums like this one cheer on all the "post launch support" as some sort of great extra, instead of really just rounding out a very basic game that shipped day one.

 

[Kouriozan]

While yes the last update added some lore, it's easily done in less than one hour so it's far from being meaningful content. It's not like we got an incomplete game at launch.
Star Allies might not be a good example for that.

 

[Mory Dunz]

Haven't watched the video because Arlo's take on SA sounds more like second hand rather than first hand experience. Kirby isn't really a good example of this as the updates since launch, while nice and provide hours more of content, they aren't that substantial. Surely not enough to call a game half finished.

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yea I played through kirby. Felt alright content wise.
my issue with the game was level design at certain points and forcing 4 player stuff at certain points. The campaign and side events seemed standard fare.

interestingly, the final world had less 4 player spots, and tighter levels, and me and my brother enjoyed that a lot more.

 

[Yukinari]

Haven't watched the video because Arlo's take on SA sounds more like second hand rather than first hand experience. Kirby isn't really a good example of this as the updates since launch, while nice and provide hours more of content, they aren't that substantial. Surely not enough to call a game half finished.

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I would say Aces or even Splatoon being so incredibly anemic at launch are better examples probably. I still cant believe the state Splatoon 1 launched in.

The problem with Kirby at launch isn't that it wasn't long enough, it was just too easy.

Mario Tennis I agree with, maybe Mario Party too.

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Oh right Super Mario Party has less boards than the N64 games.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

I feel like the only fair example of this is really Mario Tennis in terms of it being rather barebones at launch (also why I haven't bought it yet and I'm still eyeing the regular updates to see when I would jump in).

Kirby, for my money, had a decent amount there to begin with even though I'd say some of the DLC modes could have been there from the start.

 

[Jubenhimer]

I don't mind a game launching somewhat bare so long as there's stuff coming in the future. I was never really annoyed at Mario Tennis Aces not having much at launch because I already knew where Nintendo and Camelot were going with the game. If a year passes, and it still feels like a lackluster title, then yeah they messed up, but Nintendo's been so far good on making sure that their games develop into more fleshed out experiences overtime.

Hideki Konno mentioned that Nintendo learned that they need to keep players engaged overtime with continuous content releases for games in an era where Smartphone apps and GaaS titles have mastered that. Nearly all of their Switch releases so far follow this trend. ARMS, Splatoon 2, XBC2, Mario Odyssey, Tennis, Kriby, Smash Ultimate, even Nintendo Labo follows a Lego-like toy release format with new Kits released periodically. So long as they're not charging for these important content updates, I'm fine with this strategy, especially since it's the nature of the modern gaming industry.

 

[@dedmunk]

The problem with Kirby at launch isn't that it wasn't long enough, it was just too easy.

Mario Tennis I agree with, maybe Mario Party too.

 

[Waddle Dee]

I was pretty disappointed with how little Star Allies and Mario Tennis: Aces offered at launch. It was bad enough in Ace's case that I never went back to play the DLC characters or see the improvements to Story Mode. The damage had been dealt, as far as I was concerned. I know Nintendo also tried this with ARMS. I hope they stop this practice as soon as possible.

 

[sredgrin]

The games are odd examples. I didn't care for Tennis or Kirby, and their DLC hasn't really felt all that substantial. It feels like a nice bonus, but they certainly aren't saved or improved that much by the DLC, at least not enough to have increased their value proposition.

Splatoon 1 as someone else said might have been a better example.

 

[DecoReturns]

I don't think Star Allies is a good example of that.

Game felt complete. Just lacked difficulty and more "creative" level design.

Personally.

 

[noyram23]

Nintendo is catching up again, with their online system, paid sub, and now this. GaaS should be next Nintendo

 

[Deleted member 8593]

I feel like this is more of a "not enough content" issue rather than a "unfinished games that get finished later" issue. But it brings up interesting questions about "content", I guess.

 

[Camjo-Z]

I loved Star Allies even at launch. The game never felt overly easy or light on content to me, but then again I'm the kind of person who didn't let 3 CPUs do all the fighting for me and enjoyed playing Guest Star Mode with all the characters.

As for the updates, I thought they were handled really well. Each one was more substantial than the last and they went out with a bang by adding a whole new mode and extra Arena difficulty. It's a far cry from Mario Tennis Aces, which has had pretty limp DLC that doesn't really make me want to check in that often. New characters are cool but at the end of the day, it's a tennis game and they don't play all that differently. Mario Golf: World Tour was a much better template on how to do things, with frequent online tournaments that offered exclusive gear with cool designs (not just lame recolors) for participating alongside the paid DLC packs that added a ton of new holes and coin challenges.

 

[Deleted member 1413]

I think there's a balance to it.
Feel like some games are abandoned too quickly and some that might launch too early but get a lot to support.
A couple Square Enix game alike TWEWY and Octopath were dropped hard in terms of updates/patches.

Feels good holding off playing a game in your backlog and by the time you get to it, it's a much better experience. Example, when I start Mario tennis they'll have done a ton to that game vs Octopath, which I dropped with the hope of some QoL updates, will never be tuned up and I'll never finish it

I think Kirby's bigger issue is that it doesn't play very well making the little content less substantial

 

[Protome]

Yeah, I hated this about most of Nintendo's output this year.
Kirby Star Allies added enough stuff over DLC that it eventually felt at least close to justifying its cost. Mario Tennis Aces though? The DLC support for that has been lacklustre and it still feels very barebones.

I hope they don't pull it again this year, especially now that Nintendo games actually go on sale sometimes. If Yoshi launches with no content then I'm not picking it up.

 

[Asbsand]

So basically, Nintendo was like a generation behind in industry practices and tech with the Wii until Switch which is sort of half way on a technical level and actually quite close to PS4 in some architectural areas, and Nintendo as a business has gotten to the same place as the last generation when it began to rear its ugly head of bad exploitative business practices.

 

[Brandon]

I sure wish Super Mario Party would receive updates. I will probably wait and see with Yoshi.

 

[RedDevil]

While yes the last update added some lore, it's easily done in less than one hour so it's far from being meaningful content. It's not like we got an incomplete game at launch.
Star Allies might not be a good example for that.

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Yeah I agree, Star Allies wasn't "incomplete" at launch nor it's a good example now of what he tried to say.

And I don't see why this should become a "concerning trend" for every other future games like the Yoshi game either as Kirby is an unique case compared to the other Nintendo games that have added stuff later like ARMS, Mario Tennis Aces, Splatoon 2, etc. Unless people are concern trolling and I'm missing it.

 

[Yukinari]

I feel like this is more of a "not enough content" issue rather than a "unfinished games that get finished later" issue. But it brings up interesting questions about "content", I guess.

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I feel like for what star allies does and offers its not TOO crazy to think that because lets be honest EX bosses should not have been an update months later when RTDL on the wii had EX bosses from the start.

Everybody bringing up concerns for Crafted World is odd though considering Woolly World felt very beefy.

 

[Protome]

I feel like for what star allies does and offers its not TOO crazy to think that because lets be honest EX bosses should not have been an update months later when RTDL on the wii had EX bosses from the start.

Everybody bringing up concerns for Crafted World is odd though considering Woolly World felt very beefy.

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The last few Kirby games felt pretty beefy too.

 

[RedDevil]

The last few Kirby games felt pretty beefy too.

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So? I don't see the pattern.

Then again we knew before its launch that Star Allies was getting more stuff later, that's usually the case when it happens.

 

[weebro]

This shit feels egregious because the game felt extremely barebones at launch. Mario Tennis was the same.

Im all for ongoing support but the game needs to feel complete at launch, something Splatoon 2 got right.

 

[Yukinari]

I think we're being really pedantic when Arlo says "finish it later" as if he means early access game or something.

He means the game doesnt feel "complete" or on par with the value other entries in the series or competing games offer. Its not a hot take to say Robobot feels like it has more to it than Star Allies especially when it costed 40 bucks.

 

[Deleted member 3758]

.

 

[Protome]

So? I don't see the pattern.

Then again we knew before its launch that Star Allies was getting more stuff later, that's usually the case when it happens.

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It's not really hard to see? Most of the games Nintendo released in 2018 on Switch felt content light and shallow. They patched one of them to make it better and seem to be patching one of the others to make it better.

Yoshi is the next of that tier of games being released, so it makes sense given the trends of Nintendo releases last year that they'd be worried about it.

 

[justiceiro]

I agree with his arguments.

That said, if both kirby allies and mario aces were delayed till there is enough content, the first half of last year would have been pretty barren. Its good wake up call for people that think that nitnendo can produce more games out of thin air.

Anothe point that is not mentioned is that post release content is always underwhelming, always. Thats why i hate when people ask for more DLC instead of waiting for acompletely new game instead.

 

[Protome]

I agree with his arguments.

That said, if both kirby allies and mario aces were delayed till there is enough content, the first half of last year would have been pretty barren. Its good wake up call for people that think that nitnendo can produce more games out of thin air.

Anothe point that is not mentioned is that post release content is always underwhelming, always. Thats why i hate when people ask for more DLC instead of waiting for acompletely new game instead.

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That Splatoon DLC campaign was really good though!

But yes, it was the exception. Not the rule.

 

[Platy]

My experience with this is like most early access games : I look to the game for a while and when it is good enough for me I put in my "to buy" list =P

 

[Inugami]

I don't think this was an intentional strategy so much as Nintendo was trying to beef up it's mid year lineup.

 

[Madao]

Star Allies feels lacking compared to past games even after the updates. it felt too short even for Kirby standards.

 

[Madison]

Star Allies feels lacking compared to past games even after the updates. it felt too short even for Kirby standards.

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yup. I loved Robobot but Star Allies pales in comparison. DLC raised it like half a point but its still a drop after one of the best games of 2016.

 

[Velocity:Design:Comfort]

The 3ds game comparison makes no sense. The games don't magically cost less money to make the same length just because the price increases. The cost to create them labor and money and time wise may very well be exactly 1.5x or more.

Does that excuse their (I disagree but it's a fair position) content problems? No.

But does that make theee assumptions correct? It's not lack of effort, but just that the budgets increased slower than the ips have deserved them to increase. That's why you get less content, it went all into making it look nicer for an hd console.

If star allies makes a Kirby engine that gives us 2 or 3 more games that are great like the triple deluxe one did, awesome.
If Mario tennis and ultra smash leads to Camelot being able to release Mario golf and whatever faster, awesome.

Lack of content is for better or worse the hd engine development tax.

 

[Velocity:Design:Comfort]

I agree with his arguments.

That said, if both kirby allies and mario aces were delayed till there is enough content, the first half of last year would have been pretty barren. Its good wake up call for people that think that nitnendo can produce more games out of thin air.

Anothe point that is not mentioned is that post release content is always underwhelming, always. Thats why i hate when people ask for more DLC instead of waiting for acompletely new game instead.

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I can see thinking it's not the best value but this is totally untrue, especially with Nintendo published games. Dk dlc for Mario rabbids and the octoling expac were great values.

 

[Deleted member 5535]

A Arlo video coming and it's straight up garbage, no surprise from him at this point with how bad his channel is.

 

[PKrockin]

While Star Allies was pretty light on content, my bigger issues with it, as a Kirby fan, were that the game forces you to use allies and they make the game so easy it doesn't even feel like I'm doing anything anymore. I know Kirby games are easy, but not SO easy that I felt like I lost all my agency as a player. It also ran at sub-1080p and 30fps IIRC, which is disappointing, and it doesn't feel as responsive as previous games, so it sort of failed to at least be a game where I can sit back and enjoy the eye candy or the fun of moving my character around and beating stuff up. I don't like this hours per dollar focus.

While I think food analogies are shit, I agree with the point he was making. By the time major DLC came out, I no longer really felt like playing a Kirby game like I did at launch. I was already invested in other games and just didn't feel like booting up Star Allies for a bite-sized piece of content I would do and then once again be done with the game. That DLC, as well as Mario Odyssey's balloon hunt nonsense, was kind of worthless to me.

 

[Protome]

A Arlo video coming and it's straight up garbage, no surprise from him at this point with how bad his channel is.

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You okay?
What part of what he said do you disagree with?

 

[Deleted member 8593]

I feel like for what star allies does and offers its not TOO crazy to think that because lets be honest EX bosses should not have been an update months later when RTDL on the wii had EX bosses from the start.

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Yes but from my understanding the game still doesn't really match the previous games. To me that's indicative of a different issue but I guess it's a matter of perspective.

 

[Deleted member 3815]

To the folks complaining about the game being easy...you guys do realise that Kirby games are suppose to be easy and are designed for people who are less skilled in gaming while offering a deep combat system? Heck players can easily skip bulk of the levels just by flying.

Every Kirby games that I have played have been easy and if you want a challenge play boss rush as that tests your skills.

I think we're being really pedantic when Arlo says "finish it later" as if he means early access game or something.

He means the game doesnt feel "complete" or on par with the value other entries in the series or competing games offer. Its not a hot take to say Robobot feels like it has more to it than Star Allies especially when it costed 40 bucks.

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Sorry but no, if Arlo wants to talk about a full price releasing with less content that gets beefed out at a later date, then he needs to word it correctly. That's on him.

Also comparing it to the 3DS Kirby games is just silly because for the most part they were single player affair on a handheld, Star Allies however is a full on four player HD mainline Kirby game. So naturally it would cost more than the 3DS version.

As for the extra content? It's free plus it gives an invective for players to replay the game again long after they have finished the game.

I felt that the main had plenty of contents to justify its pricing and the free DLC were nice bonuses.

 

[Lord Azrael]

I hate that Nintendo started doing these dumb content rollouts for single player games. It started with Splatoon (which made sense since it was multiplayer), but then Mario Maker after that had the asinine timed unlocks and now it plagues a bunch of their releases. Barely anyone's going to go back to a game they've long beaten just to do one new level or play with one new essentially clone character.

 

[Yukinari]

To the folks complaining about the game being easy...you guys do realise that Kirby games are suppose to be easy and are designed for people who are less skilled in gaming while offering a deep combat system? Heck players can easily skip bulk of the levels just by flying.

Every Kirby games that I have played have been easy and if you want a challenge play boss rush as that tests your skills.

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Kirby being easy doesnt equal some of the most simple puzzles and braindead fights in series history with an emphasis on broad empty levels to account for 2-4 players. Id say this game is as easy if not easier than Epic Yarn despite having health bars and lives.

And this idea that we arent allowed to compare the content between entries just because one is handheld and one is console is ludicrous when theyre part of the same IP. Especially when RTDL, TD, Robobot and SA are all part of the "modern" kirby formula known as the RTDL formula.

 

[BassForever]

Arlo has a hate boner for kirby star allies and this video is completely off point. Star Allies problem at launch and ever after all the dlc isn't a lack of content, but an over reliance on a multiplayer gimmick which isn't as fun as the robobot armor or the super powers from return to dreamland. Most of the dlc just added fan service characters who were completely op and broke an already easy game. The final dlc is the only one to add meaningful content, and it was clearly something they didn't work on until well after they launched a content complete game.

Arlo frustrates me as a youtuber, far too often he doesn't even do the most basic level of research before giving his opinion on something. Instead of spending 5 minutes preemptively telling me you didn't play the last several games in the series so you don't know what's new or what's not, why don't you do the tiniest bit of research and find out the answer. I'm not here to watch a 20 minute review where you spend the first few minutes telling me you did no research and then the next several minutes going over features that aren't new making your review completely useless.

 

[shoptroll]

Let me just say that I hope this trend doesn't continue for Nintendo. If Yoshi's Crafted World is half baked I will be very annoyed. It also is very weird to get the content rich WiiU ports and then these barebones new Switch titles.

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I am really hoping that Yoshi was delayed so they wouldn't have a repeat of Star Allies. Star Allies was fun but it felt very light at launch coming off of Robobot.

 

[Deleted member 5535]

You okay?
What part of what he said do you disagree with?

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It wasn't clear that I don't like his channel with how I talked?

 

[Nali]

Star Allies' issues are fundamental in nature. Having more of the blandest level design since Squeak Squad at launch wouldn't have fixed it, and I would never have played through Guest Star a dozen times over if not for the Dream Friends being doled out over time no matter how fun they were, nor would their runs be as good as they are without HAL having the time to incorporate feedback.

 

[Terraforce]

I would say Aces or even Splatoon being so incredibly anemic at launch are better examples probably. I still cant believe the state Splatoon 1 launched in.

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Do not remind me. One mode and not even a ranked mode at launch. It wasn't even funny how bad it was back then.