I mean, obviously? I did state this. However, it was a similar situation where I was on way below minimum wage and our contract literally stated "tips make up the rest". So it wasn't so far off I cannot contribute here.
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Are you cheap if you don’t tip? (American tipping culture)
- Thread starter DongBeetle
- Start date
Doesn't your entire argument fall apart when you take into account that if a server does not make minimum wage in tips their employer is legally mandated to make up the difference?
Yeah, it does seem very illegal. But nobody did or said anything because, surprise, that was everyone's only source of income and they didn't want to jeopardize it by stepping out of line.
At this particular restaurant, food was ordered at a central register then servers took over tables from there, which means we had dedicated cashiers and we didn't know much patrons were tipping. Credit tips were pooled together and distributed based on number of hours worked that pay period. (Aside, but this also majorly sucked for me, who worked the packed weekend shifts and could still end up taking home less than folks who worked the dead mornings). Nobody knew/would possibly be able to keep track of how much money was in that pool, so nobody would know for sure if it was being messed with unless we were directly told. I left for a different job a couple of months after I found out.
No (and pretty sure that's not how it works but I could be wrong). You took a service with the expectation to pay them. You didn't may them for the service provided.
Well, wait staff have a lower minimum wage in many (most?) states as the laws consider there is a reasonable expectation that tips will make up the difference. It's something like $2.50 an hour instead of the $7.25. If you're not contributing to that, you are effectively stealing some of their money. Servers also generally have to pay in to a pool at the end of the day for the back of house staff and others to get some of the tips. The amount they owe is based on their sales. If you stiff them, you often hit them in the pocket twice as they still owe the percentage that would be shared even if they didn't get it covered.
"Go take someone's money out of their pocket for a luxury service you don't need if you're too poor"
I assume that's better? Because that's literally what you're arguing, here, friend.
There are plenty of ways to treat yourself when you're poor that don't require you to fuck over someone else. I went through an 8 year custody battle for my son that cost me over $50,000 in legal fees, on top of paying over $60,000 in child support during that same time; I had to borrow money from friends and family just to make ends meet a lot of months. I often wanted to treat my kid to something nice even though I didn't have a lot of money to spare.
- I started taking him to matinee movies that only cost $5, and spend another $5 to buy him some candy or popcorn to eat while we watched.
- I'd buy him a new toy car every time he was at my house for the week.
- I'd shop around on Craigslist and buy him old GameCube games on the cheap
You'll notice none of these options involved taking money out of someone else's pocket, yet I was able to do something nice for him every single week. I'm not a fucking magician, either. It wasn't hard. It was actually really easy to come up with ways to treat him to things while maintaining a budget and not being an asshole to other people.
You are not entitled to a nice, sit-down dinner with full service if you won't or can't pay for that service. You're not entitled to abuse other poor people financially because you are poor. That's all y'all are doing, and it makes me really, really suspicious that any of these arguments are in earnest, and not just bullshit rationalizations for being fucking cheap. If you really struggled that much financially, I'd hope you'd realize just how selfish it is to pass that struggle on to other people in similar situations because your momentary happiness is worth more than their financial stability.
No, it is the expectation and agreement between the waiter and the establishment and the customer that you pay the server via tips. Try to justify not tipping all you want, but when you KNOW the server's income is from the customer, and you choose not to tip, you are directly receiving services you didn't pay for.
Great. So the employer now loses money and closes his restaurant causing the server to lose their job.
OR the restaurant increases their prices to offset this labor increase. Which means the customer still pays for it. But now you as the customer get to pay tax on that as well, so if anything this gratuity system is benefitting the customer.
And now the server is making minimum wage instead of a higher rate. So you've screwed basically everyone except the government.
Yes. I agree. I am talking about how that changes if it is true that if a server does not make minimum wage from tipping then the employer is responsible for making up the difference.
Your argument seems to be that the server is not getting compensated for services provided, but in this case they still are just not through tips.
Most people have made the argument that the system sucks and the onus should be on the employer, but it's not so skipping the tip is only punishing the server. This is once again not the case in this scenario.
And I'd bet my left nut that most employers conveniently "forget" that part of the law.
Well I have not thought about your hypothetical all that much cause that is not the system that exists. Right now the system isn't even really broken, its just different and a little confusing to outsiders.
That's exactly the purpose of the tipping system. However, refusing to tip waitstaff in the current system is still shitty. Tipping SHOULD be eliminated, but we have it so until the laws change if you don't tip then you are directly fucking over low-wage working class people.
From what I am reading it does not seem like a hypothetical. It seems like a federal law in the US.
Only if they want a world of federal legal trouble. But despite the parade of sorrow that often ensues when this topic comes up on ERA, servers typically make so much fucking money off tips, even on slower nights, that you basically never encounter this scenario to begin with.
That's not even counting states like California, where tipped employees cannot have a base wage lower than minimum. So in some places, like San Francisco, servers make $15/hr+tips.
I've worked food service, both delivering and serving in-house. I made a comically large amount of money as a college student working part-time. My partner at the time fully funded 3 international trips after graduation by working part time as a server as well.
I also got stiffed (sometimes multiple times in a day) and had people who tipped me shit (rounded up the nearest dollar, only tipped $1, etc). I still made bank. Not everyone tips. If you're a competent food service professional you contend with the fact instead of becoming bitter and crying about it, and letting it ruin how you do your job.
You serve a multitude of customers and if you keep a good attitude and positive outlook, you'll do well. I had many $500+ nights this way. I knew lots of staunch complainers who for some reason never seemed to make any money. Wonder why.
I can count on one hand how many times I haven't tipped. Sometimes, I've had juuuuuuuuust enough to afford the cost, but couldn't tip. I felt like a jerk, and even apologized. But God forbid I wanna not live like a fucking rat and treat myself to some modicum of comfort. God forbid I want a moment contentment, even if it's as simple as a hot meal.
Some of you have no fucking clue what it's like to struggle financially and/ or be insanely depressed. Some of you need a kick in the ass, if not several. I've experienced high high and low lows. I'm beyond lucky to have a loving family and support systems I have. Without, I'd be totally fucked.
It's really not hard to not be an asshole.
Some of you have no fucking clue what it's like to struggle financially and/ or be insanely depressed. Some of you need a kick in the ass, if not several. I've experienced high high and low lows. I'm beyond lucky to have a loving family and support systems I have. Without, I'd be totally fucked.
It's really not hard to not be an asshole.
I will tell you that paying workers minimum wage will likely not change anything about tipping culture. Servers make the same minimum wage here as any other minimum wage employee and tipping culture sounds exactly the same as it is in the US.
Any increase in wages for servers would be passed along to you in the bill. No restaurant is going to go from paying employees $2/hr to $15 without including that increase in their menu prices.
If you can't afford to eat and tip, you literally cannot afford to eat at all if employees are being paid fair wages instead of relying on tips. There's no magical solution where servers make a fair wage and you, the customer, don't pay for it. That's not how capitalism works.
Gotcha, was just clarifying. And yes you are right, vast majority of tips nowadays are done through card payments, which means they are being fully taxed. Cash tips are the only tips were non-tax is possible, but as you stated employers and employees have a duty to report cash tips each week.
That should help them pay the rent. Problem solved.
You're right, it's not. Pay people for the services they provide you. That's a good start.
Ok? If people want to tip for service they receive, and workers are being paid a fair wage by their employer...then let them?
Restaurant servers and bartenders are far from the only jobs that regularly receive tips.
Yah it's ridiculous honestly. Waitstaff make bank. Ask if they'd rather bust ass in BOH for minimum wage + some crappy share of the FOH tips. Yah, right.
Reservoir Dogs was how many years ago? Mr. Pink was a cheap fuck and it's a shame he was the only one that lived.
I was responding directly to your quote where you said tipping should be eliminated??? And that laws should change to facilitate this. I was making the point that changing the law will likely not change this, at least if the law change proposed is raising the minimum wage for servers to be equal to that of other minimum wage employees.
In your hypothetical, if the servers are making $2.50/hr, and if everyone stops tipping, then the company has to pay the difference, eventually that cost will be passed down to the consumer anyways as they will need to raise their prices start paying people $7.50/hr+ instead of $2.50.
Really this entire argument just screams of people trying to justify being cheap and paying as little as possible.
Then put it on the bill in the form of higher food and drink prices and remove the tip line so we can stop talking about customers being cheap. They aren't. The employers are. And if you accept $2 an hour as a wage, you accept that you are being taken advantage of. The customer is not your problem. Your boss is.
Go look at the data on what the average yearly take home for a waiter is in the US and then come back and tell me that servers 'make bank'
Tipping should be eliminated as a requirement, employers should have to be paid at minimum wage or above for every hour worked by their employer. If people want to tip in addition to that then it's fine.
Data is also skewed by location and, unfortunately enough, by how someone looks/what their age is.
Where I live servers make the same amount as any other minimum wage employee and expect tips. Which I am fine with. I am merely arguing against your assertion that someone not tipping is equivalent to stealing or is morally bad. You are ignoring facts and using hyperbolic arguments to make your point and I don't like it. The real reason servers are so adamant about making tips is because it makes them quite a bit of money. Like way more than other people working in low-skill jobs. That is it. They don't want to give that up. Take it away and they are in the same position as every other minimum wage employee in the country.
Bingo.
Imagine thinking this way. I tip, often generously, and have worked the food service industry. Nobody should expect a tip, much less conflate not getting tipped with getting stolen from. What absolute drivel.
Yeah no shit that's why I said look at the average nationally. The poster I was quoting and the person they were quoting were basing this idea that 'servers make bank' on what a waiter at a high end restaurant in NYC makes...which is stupid and not representative of most people.
I REALLY hate when people cherry pick quotes to make a stupid point. You left out the part where I mentioned that I count how many times I haven't tipped on one hand. Meaning, 99.9999%, I tip. And the few times I haven't, I felt bad and had a reason not to. I'm a fucking asshole and a piece of shit, right? Okay...
Lots of elite assholes here. Fucking hell "you DESERVE to be taken advantage of" yet your cheap asses won't pay anything above a certain level.
Just say you're cheap. It's not that hard.
Just say you're cheap. It's not that hard.
I hate, hate, hate, HATE tipping and everything surrounding it. I love when I'm in a different country like Japan where tipping isn't a thing, it feels so much better to pay what it says on the menu and generally the service is better too.
That said, if I'm going to a sit-down restaurant I'll be tipping anyway since it's expected.
That said, if I'm going to a sit-down restaurant I'll be tipping anyway since it's expected.
Employers need to be paying a fair wage to their employees directly. That's the issue with tipping in the US, it let's employers off the hook.
Is cooking skilled or unskilled labor?
Many of the people I work with have attended very expensive culinary schools only to end up in poverty.
Servers on average make double to triple the pay of cooks.
I work at one of the top ten most exclusive restaurants in new York.
Every night we are packed to capacity. Our prices are quite high.
A conservative estimate puts our income at 3,000 per day.
That is one million per year.
We have 10 employees making close to 35,000.With two employees making 50,000 to 60,000.
That is about half of our profit.
If you factor in building rent, and electricity, we make significantly less.
We could pay our employees slightly more, but the margins are actually quite thin.
Tipping is the only way our restaurant can offer to pay our employees a healthy wage.
Us line cooks will have to live in poverty, but those who make tips can actually afford to live in manhattan, and they don't have to be afraid of losing their job and instantly becoming homeless.
I don't really see an alternative.
Many of the people I work with have attended very expensive culinary schools only to end up in poverty.
Servers on average make double to triple the pay of cooks.
I work at one of the top ten most exclusive restaurants in new York.
Every night we are packed to capacity. Our prices are quite high.
A conservative estimate puts our income at 3,000 per day.
That is one million per year.
We have 10 employees making close to 35,000.With two employees making 50,000 to 60,000.
That is about half of our profit.
If you factor in building rent, and electricity, we make significantly less.
We could pay our employees slightly more, but the margins are actually quite thin.
Tipping is the only way our restaurant can offer to pay our employees a healthy wage.
Us line cooks will have to live in poverty, but those who make tips can actually afford to live in manhattan, and they don't have to be afraid of losing their job and instantly becoming homeless.
I don't really see an alternative.
If it's in a popular restaurant in a high income area I don't feel so bad to not tip. They make way more than I will ever make so they can live.
Sure, seems we agree on this.
Thanks?
I don't think this should be an unpopular opinion. When I delivered pizza, it was regularly occasionally to much lower income neighborhoods (the majority of my customers otherwise were students, who also understandably don't tip very well on average). I was fairly understanding that in those scenarios I might not get tipped. That's life. Still came out ahead overall.
The alternative is that pricing needs to go up and that all restaurant workers need to be paid fairly. In all honesty, both cooking and serving are forms of skilled labor, both should be compensated equally and fairly BY THE EMPLOYER. Part of why tipping even exists as it currently does in the US is to benefit restaurant owners, who get to have customers subsidize a portion of their staff's wages AND get to encourage a system that foments resentment between front of house and back of house employees. That resentment benefits owners, who don't have to worry about solidarity between servers/cooks leading to demands for fairer wages.
As a server, I share my tips with the kitchen staff. They play an equal role in providing the service, so imo they deserve a share of the wages I receive from customers. Imo, their work is grueling and difficult. That said, none of the kitchen staff where I work would want to or even could do my job. Most of them hate interacting with customers, and they are all immigrants with varying levels of English proficiancy to the degree that conversing with customers, taking their requests, and meeting their needs would be incredibly difficult for them (not to mention the physical demands of the job). It's a completely different skillset.
Valuable to the restaurant and people who cant get their meals themselves. Its not like they let you get your own meals lmao
You deserve compensation via your boss just like everyone else. You literally cannot make these stupid arguments when youre depending on a charity based wage. These are arguments you would make to justify getting paid to your employer who hires you to perform a service.
Stealing is illegal. Not tipping is not illegal.
Do you think there should perhaps be a mechanism by which tipping is legally mandated? They could even just include the tip in the price, and require employers to pay staff a fair wage.
This is the logical system that most of the world uses.
Fuck US tipping culture.
I'm also not a fan of the guilt tripping either as if it's only the corporations that are supporting this regime. Waiting staff are against getting rid of tipping as well because they feel as though they will receive more overall (which I'm sure they file on their taxes) with tips as opposed to comparable base wages for similar professions.
I have no problem with discretionary tipping, but you don't deserve a tip just because you brought me some lukewarm pasta and filled up my drink.
I'm also not a fan of the guilt tripping either as if it's only the corporations that are supporting this regime. Waiting staff are against getting rid of tipping as well because they feel as though they will receive more overall (which I'm sure they file on their taxes) with tips as opposed to comparable base wages for similar professions.
I have no problem with discretionary tipping, but you don't deserve a tip just because you brought me some lukewarm pasta and filled up my drink.
Work one shift as a server during a busy dinner rush, then come back to me with your bullshit "all they're doing is handing me muh food!!"
until then don't talk of what you don't know