Are you cheap if you don’t tip? (American tipping culture)

Darkstar0155 · Jan 7, 2020

Mist said:
It's literally not stealing though. Unless tipping is a legal requirement that I'm unaware of. You can use sensationalist language, but the reality is that it's not.

And yes I used race to make clear that there are a lot of impoverished and marginalised people besides waiters. Ignoring that and directing the vitriol that you should be directing at the employers and your legislators at them is misguided at best, and certainly very privileged.

Your race comment is solely to try to bring another topic into the discussion. Race wasn't a part of this discussion and isn't required at all to discuss the topic at hand. Your just trying to make a tangential point.

Shining Star said:
That's ridiculous. You're paying in the first place and they're getting paid whatever their wage is. How can you call that stealing? Silly.

Ok, maybe not technically stealing, but good for you for justifying it.

And 90% of their salary comes from tips. The moment you walk in the door to a restaurant in the U.S. you have a social contract to pay the server for their service. If you don't pay then you have not paid for the service they have provided you even though you accepted said service knowing you should pay (since they aren't paid by the establishment, and the cost of their work isn't rolled into your bill already).

YOU RECIEVED A SERVICE, YOU DIDNT PAY FOR IT. YOUR A ASSHOLE REGARDLESS HOW YOU WANT TO JUSTIFY IT.

Kyuuji · Jan 7, 2020

Kirblar said:
The prices are cheaper here than they are in Europe. The tips are effectively a dedicated % of revenue going directly to workers resulting in higher FOH salaries.

The price you pay in Europe baseline will be our tax plus tip price.

Really? I'm sure you have a link to hand. First time hearing of the base price discrepancy in food when eating out between the US and Europe.

shnurgleton · Jan 7, 2020

Tigress said:
But you are effectively paying them. Just it reflects in the price of the food you buy which considers wage costs as part of the price. Just in the US the laws made it easy for both customers and employers to skip out on paying the servers fairly.

Yup. There was a trend of tip-not-required restaurants in the states but prices were higher. As a result not a lot of them have succeeded

LCGeek · Jan 7, 2020

Darkstar0155 said:
Right lol. All the mental loopholes being used to justify effectively stealing.

Its not stealing unless you literally want to share your definition of it in the context.

If you already paid someone for a service the deal is done and the expectation for more is entitlement.

HamSandwich · Jan 7, 2020

Yes, because you're not sticking it to the man by not tipping, you're sticking it to the wait staff.

Min · Jan 7, 2020

Windrunner said:
I shouldn't be expected to subsidise somebody's wages just because their employer pays them a derisory hourly rate, it's unfair to put that burden on others especially those barely getting by themselves. I'm glad that this isn't a controversy in Europe because we have effective minimum wage laws.

If you live in a system and refuse to participate in the system, and refusing to participate actively hurts others, than you're not some saint activist working for a better future. You're just a selfish jerk. I know you live in a country that protects your workers. But refusing to participate in the American system as an American is just another layer of exploitation. If you really want to not participate in the system, cook yourself a meal.

I'm tired of the mental gymnastics of people trying to justify not tipping and how it's actually wrong and morally bunk to participate in this thread. We talking about ourselves and our values, not some hypothetical single parent poor family who works in the service industry and wants to treat their children to a birthday meal.

Kirblar · Jan 7, 2020

Kyuuji said:
Really? I'm sure you have a link to hand. First time hearing of the base price discrepancy in food when eating out between the US and Europe.

It's because the EU restaurants will have the FOH staff costs embedded into the menu costs. In the US they're externalized in the tips. It's why in the US no-tip restaurants have higher menu prices as Shurgle just mentioned.

Total cost to consumer is going to be the same. Either Total Price = Menu Price= (FOH Costs + Food) or Total Price = Food + Tips paying FOH salaries.

Tidus · Jan 7, 2020

LCGeek said:
Its not stealing unless you literally want to share your definition of it in the context.

If you already paid someone for a service the deal is done and the expectation for more is entitlement.

Yeah the stealing thing is weird. People here are literally trying to change the definition of it lol. All in all I just think people should at least tip as much as you can within your means.

Meauxse · Jan 7, 2020

LCGeek said:
Its not stealing unless you literally want to share your definition of it in the context.

If you already paid someone for a service the deal is done and the expectation for more is entitlement.

It isn't entitlement to expect more than $2.15/hr. It, however, is literal entitlement to go out and purchase a meal from a restaurant and not fulfill the social obligation of paying your server so they can pay their bills because you are entitled to the service without paying for it.

So i earnestly hope you only pick up food from restaurants in the future.

Tidus said:
Yeah the stealing thing is weird. People here are literally trying to change the definition of it lol. All in all I just think people should at least tip as much as you can within your means.

If meal plus adequate tip is not within your means, don't go out. Period.

LewieP · Jan 7, 2020

This thread reached "going to a restaurant and paying the asking price is the same as theft" quicker than I expected.

Kyuuji · Jan 7, 2020

Kirblar said:
It's because the EU restaurants will have the FOH staff costs embedded into the menu costs. In the US they're externalized in the tips. It's why in the US no-tip restaurants have higher menu prices as Shurgle just mentioned.

I understand that but is there anything to say whether the price baked-in is relative to the base price in Europe. The last part is the US relative to the US. Restaurants not requiring a tip by putting the price up will obviously raise the price per dish, but is there data to show which (tip or no tip) is comparable to EU prices for eating out?

Windrunner · Jan 7, 2020

Lord of Ostia said:
No, you shouldn't, but it's the reality in the US.

Tigress said:
But you are effectively paying them. Just it reflects in the price of the food you buy which considers wage costs as part of the price. Just in the US the laws made it easy for both customers and employers to skip out on paying the servers fairly.

Kirblar said:
The prices are cheaper here than they are in Europe. The tips are effectively a dedicated % of revenue going directly to workers resulting in higher FOH salaries.

The price you pay in Europe baseline will be our tax plus tip price.

Minishdriveby said:
If you live in a system and refuse to participate in the system, and refusing to participate actively hurts others, than you're not some saint activist working for a better future. You're just a selfish jerk. I know you live in a country that protects your workers. But refusing to participate in the American system as an American is just another layer of exploitation. If you really want to not participate in the system, cook yourself a meal.

I'm tired of the mental gymnastics of people trying to justify not tipping and how it's actually wrong and morally bunk to participate in this thread. We talking about ourselves and our values, not some hypothetical single parent poor family who works in the service industry and wants to treat their children to a birthday meal.

Feeling pretty thankful right now that I don't live in a libertarian nightmare zone with service workers depending on the generosity of others and have no job and wage security. To hell with your system lol.

shnurgleton · Jan 7, 2020

Why would you even go out to a restaurant if you can't barely afford it?

TheMango55 · Jan 7, 2020

Mist said:
Believe it or not, but $3 can mean a lot to a poor person. Like that single mother scenario I gave. That can go towards something like milk and bread.

If you can't afford the tip, order the food to go. Not only do you not have to pay the tip, you don't have to pay for drinks.

Take it to a park if you still want the night out experience.

LewieP · Jan 7, 2020

shnurgleton said:
Why would you even go out to a restaurant if you can't barely afford it?

Maybe restaurants should list prices including a fair salary for their staff so customers can budget effectively.

Kyuuji · Jan 7, 2020

shnurgleton said:
Why would you even go out to a restaurant if you can't barely afford it?

To have a nice experience.

Darkstar0155 · Jan 7, 2020

LCGeek said:
Its not stealing unless you literally want to share your definition of it in the context.

If you already paid someone for a service the deal is done and the expectation for more is entitlement.

You DIDNT pay for their service until the tip. The amount these people are getting "paid" by the restaurant is well well well below minimum wage (like half or less, depends on the state). You PAID for the meal and food. NOT the service.

Geoff · Jan 7, 2020

NH Apache said:
I find this statement terribly ironic. Here we are discussing servers like they make 50k annual.

The server is most likely the single mother you are discussing.

Servers make more than minimum otherwise they wouldn't be in favour of the tipping system. Asking someone who does make minimum wage to pay them more than that and getting angry when they don't is ethically flawed.

mrmoose · Jan 7, 2020

MJForum Poster said:
Your friend is spot on.

If you want to take a stand against tipping culture and fight for food service workers to have living wages, you shouldn't go out to eat at places that require you to tip to compensate workers. By visiting a restaurant but not tipping, the only person you're hurting is your server. The manager/owner does not care in the slightest, they still got your business

Exactly this. Don't go to restaurants that do tipping if you want to take some kind of stand against the establishment. Are there people that actually claim they go to restaurants but don't tip because they are taking the moral high ground? Ridiculous.

Kirblar · Jan 7, 2020

Kyuuji said:
I understand that but is there anything to say whether the price baked-in is relative to the base price in Europe. The last part is the US relative to the US. Restaurants not requiring a tip by putting the price up will obviously raise the price per dish, but is there data to show which (tip or no tip) is comparable to EU prices for eating out?

I wasn't speaking in a direct $ to Euros sense, I was speaking in a "US no-tip restaurants are equivalent to what EU restaurants would look like translated here" sense.

VeryHighlander · Jan 7, 2020

All these people sticking it to the man by refusing to tip, yet probably order food for delivery every day anyway.

if you order shit to be delivered to your fucking door and you have the audacity to not tip the poor fucker, you're honestly a piece of shit

Darkstar0155 · Jan 7, 2020

LewieP said:
Maybe restaurants should list prices including a fair salary for their staff so customers can budget effectively.

Yes it a better system there would be no tipping. Until that IS the system your a asshole if you don't tip (as long as the service was ok).

And it really isn't hard to figure out what 10 or 20% tip is. Like seriously.

LCGeek · Jan 7, 2020

NH Apache said:
It isn't entitlement to expect more than $2.15/hr. It, however, is literal entitlement to go out and purchase a meal from a restaurant and not fulfill the social obligation of paying your server so they can pay their bills because you are entitled to the service without paying for it.

So i earnestly hope you only pick up food from restaurants in the future.

You apparently don't read I don't stiff my waiters considerng my own past. I just think the arguments are full of shit especially using morals when this has nothing to do with such.

I tend to pick up and not a single server I'd have wait on me hasn't not been tipped in ages.

So nice you can assume shit for the sake of making yourself feel good.

LewieP · Jan 7, 2020

Darkstar0155 said:
Yes it a better system there would be no tipping. Until that IS the system your a asshole if you don't tip (as long as the service was ok).

And it really isn't hard to figure out what 10 or 20% tip is. Like seriously.

Which is it 10% or 20%? Nobody advocating for tipping can even agree what the appropriate procedure for tipping is.

Geoff · Jan 7, 2020

shnurgleton said:
Why would you even go out to a restaurant if you can't barely afford it?

Why do poor people do any of the things they do but can't really afford? Because poor people like nice things just as much as everyone else and if they have tip someone who earns more than them a measly 10% or whatever to get a nice meal, more power to them.

Kyuuji · Jan 7, 2020

Kirblar said:
I wasn't speaking in a direct $ to Euros sense, I was speaking in a "US no-tip restaurants are equivalent to what EU restaurants would look like translated here" sense.

Naturally, though I think it's a valid line of questioning to see relative prices. It might be the case that the dish prices are relatively similar and US establishments still demand the tip and pay lower? I tip all the time regardless, save poor service, because it's custom here too, but if neat solutions were around I think the one where the expected price to pay is clear and defined (with a surplus for positive service) is the rational route.

Min · Jan 7, 2020

Windrunner said:
Feeling pretty thankful right now that I don't live in a libertarian nightmare zone with service workers depending on the generosity of others and have no job and wage security. To hell with your system lol.

Bruh. That's what I'm saying. But don't be saying "To hell with our system," but continue to patron the outback steakhouse for those BOGO bloomin' onion deals without tipping. If you think the system is farcical and don't want to participate but continue to dine out, you're still participating in it and exploiting our workforce's labor.

NeonBlack · Jan 7, 2020

No. But I like this crazy "it's stealing" idea that going on even tho it's literally not stealing.

Deleted member 14518 · Jan 7, 2020

Tip the staff before you eat and then run before paying for the meal.

Darkstar0155 · Jan 7, 2020

Kyuuji said:
To have a nice experience.

You don't need to go to a restaurant to "have a nice experience". I don't make a ton of money, should I be subsidized to go to 5 star restaurant to "have a nice experience". "Nice experience" is completely subjective and relative to what you are accustomed to.

Transistor · Jan 7, 2020

The gatekeeping of people who don't have a lot of money in here is shameful, it really is.

My wife was a server for a few years. She told me many stories of her adventures. Many times there would be people who just wanted a special night. Maybe it was an anniversary, or a birthday, or a celebration. Maybe they didn't have a lot of money, but they just needed that uplifting night. Little things like that can help peoples mental state so damn much. Many times, people in that situation didn't tip, and she was OK with that.

On the flip side, there were regulars who would leave change tips (basically what was leftover from breaking their big bills. Usually in the $1-5 range). People who would get super expensive entrees and top shelf liquor and leave something so paltry. Those people can go fuck themselves.

Dyle · Jan 7, 2020

LewieP said:
Which is it 10% or 20%? Nobody advocating for tipping can even agree what the appropriate procedure for tipping is.

That's why most people shoot for 15%.

shnurgleton · Jan 7, 2020

LewieP said:
Which is it 10% or 20%? Nobody advocating for tipping can even agree what the appropriate procedure for tipping is.

15% is the general guideline. This is not esoteric knowledge

Kyuuji · Jan 7, 2020

Darkstar0155 said:
You don't need to go to a restaurant to "have a nice experience". I don't make a ton of money, should I be subsidized to go to 5 star restaurant to "have a nice experience". "Nice experience" is completely subjective and relative to what you are accustomed to.

What are you even rambling on about?
This was the course of discussion:

shnurgleton said:
Why would you even go out to a restaurant if you can't barely afford it?

Kyuuji said:
To have a nice experience.

LewieP · Jan 7, 2020

Dyle said:
That's why most people shoot for 15%.

Most people don't require a tip at all. There is one country where people argue a tip is mandatory, and there is no consensus on how to tip within that country.

shnurgleton said:
15% is the general guideline. This is not esoteric knowledge

I've seen disagreements over whether it's 10%, 15%, or 20%. I've seen disagreements over whether you should tip if it's takeout, disagreements over whether you should tip deliveries. Disagreements over whether you should tip other service workers (barbers, masseurs, beauticians, retail staff etc), in bars whether a single canned drink vs complicated cocktails. All this type of stuff there is no consensus on, and nobody advocating for this system seems to want to pin down exact policies for tipping, but do want to shame people who don't know how any of these unwritten rules work for not somehow following all these conflicting rules.

shnurgleton · Jan 7, 2020

LewieP said:
Most people don't require a tip at all. There is one country where people argue a tip is mandatory, and there is no consensus on how to tip within that country.

Jesus christ I cannot deal with this fucking thread

VeryHighlander · Jan 7, 2020

Transistor said:
The gatekeeping of people who don't have a lot of money in here is shameful, it really is.

My wife was a server for a few years. She told me many stories of her adventures. Many times there would be people who just wanted a special night. Maybe it was an anniversary, or a birthday, or a celebration. Maybe they didn't have a lot of money, but they just needed that uplifting night. Little things like that can help peoples mental state so damn much. Many times, people in that situation didn't tip, and she was OK with that.

On the flip side, there were regulars who would leave change tips (basically what was leftover from breaking their big bills. Usually in the $1-5 range). People who would get super expensive entrees and top shelf liquor and leave something so paltry. Those people can go fuck themselves.

How was she to know that people are poor and just trying to enjoy life lmao that makes ZERO sense yo. A server that's fine working for free to appease a couple of poor people, what a lovely story. Except you're basically saying that she was able to spot poor people based on their looks and behavior which is monumentally stupid. Rich people stiff servers all the time lol. This post made me laugh though. Your attempt at finding some sort of middle ground is cute and won't work for anyone that actually understands and worked the industry before.

TechnicPuppet · Jan 7, 2020

I'm not American but feel like it's a broken mess of a system to be honest. There are very tight margins all the way down the line and people getting paid very poorly then the person who hands the food or drink over at the end gets 20% of the total or whatever the tip is.

Arjen · Jan 7, 2020

shnurgleton said:
Why would you even go out to a restaurant if you can't barely afford it?

Because poor people also want to do nice things some times? Jezus, this isn't that hard to understand.

Kill3r7 · Jan 7, 2020

Here's an idea, if you don't want to tip then don't eat at a sit down restaurant. There are plenty of other options, especially in large cities.

Completely Anonymous · Jan 7, 2020

I always tip if the service is good. I remember when I was young and poor, and try to tip accordingly where appropriate

Tidus · Jan 7, 2020

For the people saying if you don't have the money don't go out, why even complain about rich people and how much money they are getting cause screw the poor right. Your not allowed to have fun cause you don't have money. What if they just want to have a special night for once with all the shit that could be happening around them. I mean the blatant classism in this thread is stunning and shameful.

TheMango55 · Jan 7, 2020

LewieP said:
Most people don't require a tip at all. There is one country where people argue a tip is mandatory, and there is no consensus on how to tip within that country.

why do you need a concrete consensus?

15% minimum is a general consensus. If your waiter does a good job, or you are feeling generous, tip more.

Tidus said:
For the people saying if you don't have the money don't go out, why even complain about rich people and how much money they are getting cause screw the poor right. Your not allowed to have fun cause you don't have money. What if they just want to have a special night for once with all the shit that could be happening around them. I mean the blatant classism in this thread is stunning and shameful.

I don't understand why you can't leave at least a small tip on your "special night"

even if it's just a few dollars.

some people can't have fun without stiffing someone I guess.

Meauxse · Jan 7, 2020

Geoff said:
Servers make more than minimum otherwise they wouldn't be in favour of the tipping system. Asking someone who does make minimum wage to pay them more than that and getting angry when they don't is ethically flawed.

Lol.

No.

Minimum wage earners are not free from the "burden" of paying for service at their meal because they too earn little and anything otherwise is "ethically flawed." That's a very weak argument where the logic is based on the non-fact that minimum wage earners are entitled to free service with their meal.

LCGeek said:
You apparently don't read I don't stiff my waiters considerng my own past. I just think the arguments are full of shit especially using morals when this has nothing to do with such.

I tend to pick up and not a single server I'd have wait on me hasn't not been tipped in ages.

So nice you can assume shit for the sake of making yourself feel good.

LCGeek said:
Its not stealing unless you literally want to share your definition of it in the context.

If you already paid someone for a service the deal is done and the expectation for more is entitlement.

You called it an entitlement to pay for a tip. Entitlement means you get something because you deserve it. These servers worked to provide a service for you. It isn't an entitlement. I don't see where I've assumed anything. You seem defensive.

Min · Jan 7, 2020

Transistor said:
The gatekeeping of people who don't have a lot of money in here is shameful, it really is.

My wife was a server for a few years. She told me many stories of her adventures. Many times there would be people who just wanted a special night. Maybe it was an anniversary, or a birthday, or a celebration. Maybe they didn't have a lot of money, but they just needed that uplifting night. Little things like that can help peoples mental state so damn much. Many times, people in that situation didn't tip, and she was OK with that.

On the flip side, there were regulars who would leave change tips (basically what was leftover from breaking their big bills. Usually in the $1-5 range). People who would get super expensive entrees and top shelf liquor and leave something so paltry. Those people can go fuck themselves.

There are always exceptions to rules. I'm not sure why we're using poor people ITT to justify our reasoning for thinking tipping is bunk and unnecessary. This "why don't you think of the poor people who can't afford to tip" isn't some gotcha argument, it's just nonsense.

keyzz · Jan 7, 2020

HandsomeCharles said:
Unreported and untraceable income you say?

Um what? I wish people who never worked in restaurant industry did not get to comment on these threads. Its so infuriating each time.

You know when you leave a tip for a server on a credit card? You know how that tip gets rung in through a Point of Sale machine? You know that when a server now gets their pay stub at the end of the week they get taxed on that tipped income? Oh no.. You don't know any of this? Sounds about right. And every place I've ever worked at has cash tips declared as well. This is because the employer would also get in a world of trouble if they were non-compliant in reporting all income for their employees and paying their employer portion of those taxes. I've worked in several restaurants as a server, and now also on the corporate finance side for major restaurant groups

So in simple terms, yes we could move to have employers pay the staff a higher wage and eliminate tipping, but guess who will still be paying that wage? Did you guess the customer? Well then bravo! Because any restaurant that tries that in the US, also raises their price by about 20%. And then guess what, the government collects sales tax on that because its now sales instead of a gratuity. So you get to pay an extra tax on that 20%, so now we've made the government happy for sure.

Other downsides of eliminating tipping and paying a set wage would be that it reduces the incentive for servers to upsell. Now you may hate when servers upsell you, but it is how good servers make more money by being good at their jobs. Since after all, being a server at many places is a sales job, it makes sense they earn what is basically a commission.

There are definitely other caveats here and there as well. For example, employers DO have to make up their wages if their tip credit wages + their tips do not equal minimum wage. So for example, in NY, minimum wage is $15/hr and tipped employees are $10/hr. So if an employee works 30 hours, and makes $300 from employer and only $50 in tips. They would fall short of the $450 for the week for min wage and employer would have to pay them the $100. So if you can convince everyone at once to stop tipping servers, it would result in employers paying their staff more. But, that would still be a massive pay cut for the employee, and the restaurant would likely go out of business since most restaurants lose money already, and paying a higher wage to their staff without increasing menu prices would drive them out of business.

So, as much as there are SOME people who like to just say "TIPPING IS STUPID! LETS STOP TIPPING AND TAKE IT TO THE MAN!!!", that really makes no sense and shows a very uneducated opinion on the topic that is just loosely hiding the true reasoning of being cheap.

BringBackSonics · Jan 7, 2020

Everyone in the industry should be making a fair wage, not offset by tips. BUT, if that is the way their pay is structured, you are cheap if you don't tip. Don't punish the workers, because you disagree with the compensation model.

Geoff · Jan 7, 2020

VeryHighlander said:
How was she to know that people are poor and just trying to enjoy life lmao that makes ZERO sense yo. A server that's fine working for free to appease a couple of poor people, what a lovely story. Except you're basically saying that she was able to spot poor people based on their looks and behavior which is monumentally stupid. Rich people stiff servers all the time lol. This post made me laugh though. You're attempt at finding some sort of middle ground is cute and won't work for anyone that actually understands and worked the industry before.

If you'd worked in the industry you'd know that's fucking obvious who is a rich arsehole who eats out every meal and who is there for a special treat. You can tell by how they check the prices, what drinks they order, hesitancy in ordering as well as all the other social cues that tell you where someone is in society.

LewieP · Jan 7, 2020

TheMango55 said:
why do you need a concrete consensus?

15% minimum is a general consensus. If your waiter does a good job, or you are feeling generous, tip more.

One side of the argument says "This system is bad and makes no sense", the other side of the argument says "this system is the right system" but can't even agree among themselves how the system should work.

BringBackSonics said:
Everyone in the industry should be making a fair wage, not offset by tips. BUT, if that is the way their pay is structured, you are cheap if you don't tip. Don't punish the workers, because you disagree with the compensation model.

Customers paying asking price are not punishing employees. Their employers are.

Deleted member 5086 · Jan 7, 2020

Kirblar said:
No, it means I don't have any empathy for people deliberately screwing over other people for their own benefit.

It's really impressive that you've both convinced yourself that your system is working fine and that the employers are not the villains, and that poor people who can't afford to tip sometimes are. I'm going to hazard a guess and say that you're someone who is financially secure and has no perception of what being poor is like. That would certainly explain why you're satisfied with the status quo.

Transistor said:
The gatekeeping of people who don't have a lot of money in here is shameful, it really is.

My wife was a server for a few years. She told me many stories of her adventures. Many times there would be people who just wanted a special night. Maybe it was an anniversary, or a birthday, or a celebration. Maybe they didn't have a lot of money, but they just needed that uplifting night. Little things like that can help peoples mental state so damn much. Many times, people in that situation didn't tip, and she was OK with that.

On the flip side, there were regulars who would leave change tips (basically what was leftover from breaking their big bills. Usually in the $1-5 range). People who would get super expensive entrees and top shelf liquor and leave something so paltry. Those people can go fuck themselves.

Thank you.

Are you cheap if you don’t tip? (American tipping culture)

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