Are words like idiot, moron, dumb etc. offensive? Should we stop using them?

[Deleted member 46489]

Recently I read a twitter thread about a disabled person in a wheelchair who found it offensive when people used the word 'lame' to mean something was uncool or bad or trash. To them, it was a word rooted in ableism and its negative connotation didn't help.

Since then, I've been reading about more such words that we use as insults.
Idiot, Moron, Imbecile etc. have been used throughout history to describe people with intellectual disabilities. These were actually used as clinical terms-

Idiots. —Those so defective that the mental development never exceeds that or a normal child of about two years.
Imbeciles. —Those whose development is higher than that of an idiot, but whose intelligence does not exceed that of a normal child of about seven years.
Morons. —Those whose mental development is above that of an imbecile, but does not exceed that of a normal child of about twelve years.
— Edmund Burke Huey, Backward and Feeble-Minded Children, 1912

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Dumb is commonly used for people who have a speech disability (as in deaf and dumb). In that context, dumb is considered an offensive term. But dumb is also used to mean stupid, which while not explicitly ableist, is still a negative term that links stupidity to people with speech disabilities.

Bitch is a common slur used against women. It's an offensive gendered insult and yet it's a very popular word, often used humorously.

Should we as people stop using these terms? I have never used any of these words in an ableist manner, but I have used these words a lot in the past. And their connection to their ignoble history is undeniable. And I know now that these words DO AFFECT and HARM disabled people.

I'm going to stop using these terms, but I'd like to hear the perspectives of other folks here.

Here's a list of offensive disablist language, found on an anti-bullying website. Tell me what you think-

https://www.anti-bullyingalliance.org.uk/sites/default/files/field/attachment/Ato-Z-of-Offensive-language-FINAL.pdf

 

[Deleted member 52442]

Nah, words change over time

like maybe lame has a point since that's still used to mean someone (i think usually animals?) disabled sometimes, but things like moron idiot and imbecile are no longer directly linked to their origins

 

[Akira86]

we need language to attack ignorance, and doing it on a high level doesn't work.

 

[Znazzy]

No. Language evolves

 

[Deleted member 16908]

Aren't insults supposed to be offensive?

 

[Humidex]

Retard is definitely one we can scrub out of usage.

 

[Raiden]

Never associated lame with disabled.

We should probably draw a line somewhere but words like moron, idiot and dumb we're going to have to keep using.

Or replace them with republican or trump supporter or Maga.

 

[Rendering...]

No. "Retard" has rightly fallen out of fashion though. That one is definitely ableist.

 

[waugh]

we need language to attack ignorance, and doing it on a high level doesn't work.

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Yeah this to be honest. It sucks that a lot of these words have origins in attacking disabled people but not every unintelligent person is that way by disablity. Many are that way by choice because they are uninterested in learning. When that ignorance begins to effect people negatively, via bigotry for example, it deserves to be called out.

 

[JimNastics]

Retard is definitely one we can scrub out of usage.

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Yeah I still hear "retard" every now and then, but not as much as when I was a kid. "Spastic" thankfully seems to have completely disappeared, back in the 90s that was one of the most commonly used insults amongst kids at school.

 

[Deleted member 46489]

Nah, words change over time

like maybe lame has a point since that's still used to mean someone (i think usually animals?) disabled sometimes, but things like moron idiot and imbecile are no longer directly linked to their origins

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I agree that words change over time, but I'm not sure ableist language can ever be completely dissociated from its roots. Here's a quote from People With Disability (Australia)-

A word's meaning cannot be erased with good intentions.

People may not intend to be hurtful when they unknowingly use an ableist term, but it will hurt people anyway. Ableist language harms people with disability, and using these terms shows that people with disability aren't valued. Every effort should be taken to avoid the use of ableist language and if it is used in error, it should be corrected and an apology made.

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[shnurgleton]

I only use "foolhardy" now

 

[ZeroX]

Retard is definitely one we can scrub out of usage.

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It's just as bad as the ones listed in the OP. I never got why that particular word was singled out, they all have the same bad/ableist roots.

and autistic just replaced it anyway.

 

[jesu]

I think idiot is the only on I use there.
You could use daft instead.

 

[Deleted member 46489]

we need language to attack ignorance, and doing it on a high level doesn't work.

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What wrong with ignorant? Unqualified? Pig-headed? Dense? Thick? Daft? Uninformed?

Aren't insults supposed to be offensive?

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Yes, but they can be offensive without being ableist.

 

[3bdelilah]

Back on NeoGAF I was banned for having used moron, which I found and still find a bit exaggerated. I didn't even know there was actually a difference between an idiot, moron, and imbecile (as per the OP), but especially idiot and moron nowadays just evolved into a generic term for a dumb or silly person. However, I do think insults like "retard" or "autistic" are offensive.

 

[anexanhume]

Ask yourself a simple question: does the term imply willfulness? If yes, use it. If not, think again!

 

[Cookie]

There's no problem with any of them and there's no difference between moron, idiot etc and retard. It's stupid how that one is suddenly not ok when those other words are accepted and mean the same damn thing.

 

[Akira86]

What wrong with ignorant? Unqualified? Pig-headed? Dense? Thick? Daft? Uninformed?

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ineffective.

"shit for brains idiot" cuts right to the chase.

if you think antiquated words that have disconnected with their formal meanings like idiot and moron are still ablelist, you can make the argument but don't expect many to follow it.


something something where is your focus, action versus vocabulary.

 

[julia crawford]

We should definitely not use bitch. I've always been against it and i wish it were worthy of moderation.

 

[waugh]

I agree that words change over time, but I'm not sure ableist language can ever be completely dissociated from its roots. Here's a quote from People With Disability (Australia)-

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At this point words like idiot, moron and imbecile are so far removed from their original meaning. You can hear these words in TV shows aimed at kids. This is not the case for another word like "retard". Which means to me that people don't consider these words a slur anymore because they have been reduced to basic general definition of foolish.

So while I'm empathetic of the disabled, I don't see removing these words from our general lexicon neccessary due to the huge gap from the original meaning. It's like saying we can't call people "bastards" anymore because there's nothing wrong with premarital sex anymore. At this point it's your choice to be offended by the word.

 

[teruterubozu]

Any comparison of intelligence is potentially offensive. Not sure how you would remedy that with alternate language.

 

[Deleted member 5127]

No, stressing about every little word is just useless stress at some point.

Also bitch is less gendered than it used to be, seen it used for guys plenty of times.

 

[sphagnum]

These words have become so detached from their original meaning in the common vernacular that you'd actually have to educate yourself about their historical origins to find them offensive, so I don't think it's something to fret over. It's a little bit different from the r-word, where everyone knows what it means and that's the reason they use it.

If someone asked me not to say these words around them though, I wouldn't.

 

[Deleted member 12833]

No. That's dumb

 

[kyle mechlachlan]

A lot of these words were definitely starting to be phased out maybe 4-5 years ago, but they started to come back again in the form of blunt, sarcastic descriptors. So it really depends on the social situation surrounding them and the usage. I think it's a personal thing if you decide to remove them from your lexicon.

 

[Deleted member 14887]

I've recently started using the term "mook" more often after seeing David Simon who wrote The Wire use it in a tweet.

Mook - a foolish, insignificant, or contemptible person

 

[thesoapster]

Retard is definitely one we can scrub out of usage.

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I don't see the difference between it and many of the other similar insults. I guess because it became the default/norm?

 

[Wackamole]

If you don't want to use them, then don't.

 

[sphagnum]

I don't see the difference between it and many of the other similar insults. I guess because it became the default/norm?

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When people say "dumb", 99% of them don't think "someone with an inability to speak", they just think it's a generic word for "someone who is acting un-intelligently", which doesn't necessarily carry connotations of a disability. But most people know what the r-word means and they use it to purposefully draw that comparison.

 

[Deleted member 14887]

When people say "dumb", 99% of them don't think "someone with an inability to speak", they just think it's a generic word for "someone who is acting un-intelligently", which doesn't necessarily carry connotations of a disability. But most people know what the r-word means and they use it to purposefully draw that comparison.

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Yeah most times I hear retard used is stuff like "What are you retarded?", "You're such a retard"...ect so yeah that one can be put to pasture already.

 

[scurker]

Lots of hot takes here. I think it's important that we don't immediately dismiss things as "language evolves" and understand that there are better ways to approach our common vernacular. Ableist words are a means to justify intellectual disability as a means to potentially in-humanize people with intellectual disabilities. I believe we can be better people by finding more effective language while not using terms to describe intellectual disabilities as a weapon. I'm constantly reminded that "intent does not erase impact", in such that even though our intentions might not be harmful it does continue to further propagate ableist language. I'm guilty of this myself so I'm trying to be better myself by finding better alternatives.

Instead of using ableist words to attack or demean someone, I believe there's better alternatives. For example, some alternatives to dumb/idiot/moron: ignorant, foolish, misinformed, dense, dangerous, reckless. I think it's important to call out and identify the behavior without using ableist words. If the actual behavior is harmful (such as racism or xenophobic) I think it's better to identify it for what it is rather than falling back to potentially ableist terms.

 

[Darksol]

Quit calling people motherfuckers, you guys, it's offensive to some Americans in the south.

 

[DFG]

OP, become on the same level of intellectual mind such as I, for I will not continue this conversation any longer if you behave like you are
Or
Stop being dumb

 

[Tobor]

Idiot and moron in particular are just such good words structurally and phonetically. They bite when you use them, if that makes sense.

Trump is a fucking idiot. It just feels right. Trump is fucking uninformed doesn't carry the same force. Not even close.

 

[Raccoon]

I guess the question comes back to what intelligence actually means

is someone being less intelligent worthy of mockery?

the root of the problem is that we insult people over intelligence when we should be ridiculing behaviors that are within their control, like stubbornness, ignorance, and closed-mindedness

 

[Deleted member 21220]

While I agree some words such as dumb, lame and retarded are ableist and people should try their best not to use them. But I've never seen idiot or stupid used in a medical sense in my life, are they still used to this day because you've quoted something from the early 1900's? Also I don't care about people using bitch/cunt unless it's obvious it's being used in a sexist manner (and it's usually quite obvious).

EDIT: I checked idiot was used as a medical term in the early 1900's in the US and not really anywhere else. But stupid I couldn't find it used for anything else, and it's definitely the word I was use more often anyway. So I could take idiot out of my vocab for that reason (although it didn't seem to be used outside the US).

 

[Sidebuster]

Yeah most times I hear retard used is stuff like "What are you retarded?", "You're such a retard"...ect so yeah that one can be put to pasture already.

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There is no difference between somebody saying, "Are you retarded?" vs "Are you stupid?" They're a slightly different definition on the same idea that the person you're insulting is mentally deficient. If we shouldn't use retarded then we shouldn't use any insult that relates historically to similar terms (like stupid, idiot, simp/simple/simpleton, moron, etc). Just because you're more comfortable using one insult doesn't mean it isn't just as harmful.

 

[Deleted member 46489]

Lots of hot takes here. I think it's important that we don't immediately dismiss things as "language evolves" and understand that there are better ways to approach our common vernacular. Ableist words are a means to justify intellectual disability as a means to potentially in-humanize people with intellectual disabilities. I believe we can be better people by finding more effective language while not using terms to describe intellectual disabilities as a weapon. I'm constantly reminded that "intent does not erase impact", in such that even though our intentions might not be harmful it does continue to further propagate ableist language. I'm guilty of this myself so I'm trying to be better myself by finding better alternatives.

Instead of using ableist words to attack or demean someone, I believe there's better alternatives. For example, some alternatives to dumb/idiot/moron: ignorant, foolish, misinformed, dense, dangerous, reckless. I think it's important to call out and identify the behavior without using ableist words. If the actual behavior is harmful (such as racism or xenophobic) I think it's better to identify it for what it is rather than falling back to potentially ableist terms.

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That's a nuanced and well-thought out reply. Thank you.

OP, become on the same level of intellectual mind such as I, for I will not continue this conversation any longer if you behave like you are
Or
Stop being dumb

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Sorry, this isn't half as clever as you think it is. Entering a thread about a discussion regarding ableist language and using that very same language on the OP as some kind of gotcha is juvenile. Do better.

 

[pokeystaples]

My little brother had some learning difficulties so I grew up in a home in which my brother and me couldn't call each other those names. It was worse than cursing. Now it's kind of jarring when people say them around me. It feels full of venom even when it's not.

 

[DFG]

That's a nuanced and well-thought out reply. Thank you.

Sorry, this isn't half as clever as you think it is. Entering a thread about a discussion regarding ableist language and using that very same language on the OP as some kind of gotcha is juvenile. Do better.

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Fair enough man

 

[ItchyTasty]

Idiot and moron in particular are just such good words structurally and phonetically. They bite when you use them, if that makes sense.

Trump is a fucking idiot. It just feels right. Trump is fucking uninformed doesn't carry the same force. Not even close.

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Idiot is a good word too since it works in many languages, not just English

 

[Deleted member 14887]

There is no difference between somebody saying, "Are you retarded?" vs "Are you stupid?" They're a slightly different definition on the same idea that the person you're insulting is mentally deficient. If we shouldn't use retarded then we shouldn't use any insult that relates historically to similar terms (like stupid, idiot, simp/simple/simpleton, moron, etc). Just because you're more comfortable using one insult doesn't mean it isn't just as harmful.

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Of course it's something you as an individual have to decide what you are comfortable with using vs not. I overall try not to use insult but if I do I usually stay away from insults that are meant to attack a persons intelligence overall. I don't buy that just because depending on the definition such as "retard vs stupid" we might as well use both if you are comfortable with one versus the other.

 

[Rangerx]

No that's a bit mad really.

 

[Deleted member 46489]

My little brother had some learning difficulties so I grew up in a home in which my brother and me couldn't call each other those names. It was worse than cursing. Now it's kind of jarring when people say them around me. It feels full of venom even when it's not.

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This is the entire point. These words hurt disabled people and their families. Why can't we all make an effort to use other words that aren't ableist?

We don't use gay as an insult. Or dyke. Or the n word. So many transphobic, fatphobic, sexist and anti-LGBT slurs and insults became taboo because we recognized the harm in those words. Why can't we do the same for ableist words?

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Wraith]

If the United States Secretary of State can say it about the President* they're serving under...

 

[Ovaryactor]

Ask yourself a simple question: does the term imply willfulness? If yes, use it. If not, think again!

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You hit the nail on the head. Everyone should look up NVC! The language we use in negative evaluation of another person invariably leads to folks creating awful self-talk as a result. It raises interesting points about western usage of the adj. "to be" that seem to "other" the subject in question rather than connect with it.

 

[Z-Beat]

There's a difference between these insults and insults that get personal on things out of your control

 

[Deleted member 49611]

people get offended at anything now. someone problem is offended by those words.

 

[lmcfigs]

i wasn't born in the 1800's and i've never heard the term moron or idiot used in a clinical sense. we've moved on from that