Are we over-labeling the alt-right?

[Deleted member 4461]

Defo. I really dislike dave rubin but he has a point when people like him peterson, shapiro, Eric weinstein, Harris et Al are all lumped into the same group and considering to be on par with someone like Richard Spencer.


But then they go and merk themselves by considering themselves part of the "intellectual dark Web" lol so idk

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Also agreed. They absolutely don't do themselves any favors - and there's no way I don't believe these people know they're darlings of the alt-right.

But at best, they'll say some shit like "labels like liberal and conservative don't definitely me."

I don't believe they're alt-right, but there is absolutely a level of malice there that the average Trump supporter might not have.

Why are we interested in spending so much energy on distinguishing varieties of racist/sexist views? Is Scott Adams any less shitty if we don't call him alt right?

OP, you're prefacing every post with "yeah what he did is indefensible and bad but..." then defending him. Why bother? Is it simply the label that bothers you so much? I'm of the opinion that we don't need to stand up for bigots of any kind.

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My point is, in a sentence: "Many of these people are ignorant, not alt-right."

And in another sentence: "It makes it easier for them to ignore us if they can point to how we over-labeling people."

Finally: "The problem of actual alt-right Nazis is not as widespread as we're making it out to be. There are people who can be talked to/flipped in election times."

 

[4859]

We over label everything. Everything has to be black or white, with us or against us. It's a hilariously stupid point of view if you take two steps back.

Argue with Trump supporters all day, I say. But realize they all don't have the same exact motivations and values, despite the media's obsession with generalizations.

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Irrelevant.

 

[Johnny Blaze]

Not every Nazi was throwing people into camps. Some were just people who didn't say anything when Nazi were throwing people into camps. I honestly cannot give the second person any credit for that; they're complicit.

If you support trump, you're complicit.

Fuck, if you're so concerned about overlabeling at a time when white nationalist are the biggest terror group, having marches and killing people regularly... you're complicit

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Yes.

Look, he may or may not be alt right. Heck, the alt right could be a pretty small sample that is amplified by bots.

But, ignorant, both sides, middle-ground folk are dangerous no matter how you label them. Because they are in a way content with whatever happens due to who is in charge of a country, which, historically, leads to a lot of shit. But as long as "that one thing" (tax cuts, abortion, gun control) is being done their way, everything else doesn't matter.

If you are a single issue voter, you are still complicit with everything else. There is no absolution from that.

 

[Harry Potter Obama]

Yes. Even people on the "side" I agree with can be as stubborn and blind as Trump stooges. As someone who's actually been a victim of antisemitism, it kinda irks me how often liberal people on the internet are to label right wingers as nazis. Sometimes people are ignorant or have bad opinions without automatically being white supremesists, and throwing those people in with the KKK or Nazis just makes liberals seem over reactive, and to say the least unreasonable. Its reductive and hurts our cause.

Good luck covincing about 70% of The users here though.

 

[aerie]

We over label everything. Everything has to be black or white, with us or against us. It's a hilariously stupid point of view if you take two steps back.

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Or, we're all just depressed.

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

Wait, what? When was the last time those incompetent clowns killed someone? Last I heard, Richard Spencer was whining about how antifa was winning after getting punched in the face.

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Like, did you miss Charlottesville? Or Parkland? And did you also miss Spencer cancelling his tour because of how few people are showing up to his speeches after the face punching?

 

[Cranston]

peterson, shapiro, Eric weinstein, Harris et Al

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Bret Weinstein is a perfect example of someone getting hounded out by the mob.

Hearing him talk, he comes across as a very gentle, sweet natured nerd who spent a decade or so at Evergreen (which is basically clown college). That campus just went crazy - indulging in this sort of cultish, group orgy of self pity and narcissism.

 

[Slayven]

Scott Adams was one example. Richard Lewis (the esports one) is another example (and yes, he wrote for Breitbart, but none of his writings were political + he wrote for them before they became... infamous).



Point is, as someone else said, you can potentially reason with a Trump supporter or single-issue voter. You can't reason with a Nazi.

The latter is committed to spreading hate and ignorance, the former just... is ignorant of politics much of the time. I've seen people who try to defend Trump then resort to calling it "just politics," because they don't understand the significance of a vote.



Wait, what? When was the last time those incompetent clowns killed someone? Last I heard, Richard Spencer was whining about how antifa was winning after getting punched in the face.

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I don't Lewis, and Breitbart always been shitty, google the guy who started and who it is named after.

and Scott Adams might is just regular america right wing
http://blog.dilbert.com/2017/12/11/black-lives-matter-blm-republicans-natural-allies/

Which the functional difference is dog whistles

 

[Cranston]

But, ignorant, both sides, middle-ground folk are dangerous no matter how you label them. Because they are in a way content with whatever happens due to who is in charge of a country, which, historically, leads to a lot of shit. But as long as "that one thing" (tax cuts, abortion, gun control) is being done their way, everything else doesn't matter.

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Do you hold people of a certain religion to the same principle?

Are they responsible, no matter how moderate they are, for the activities of anyone under that umbrella?

 

[Bobson Dugnutt]

Also agreed. They absolutely don't do themselves any favors - and there's no way I don't believe these people know they're darlings of the alt-right.

But at best, they'll say some shit like "labels like liberal and conservative don't definitely me."

I don't believe they're alt-right, but there is absolutely a level of malice there that the average Trump supporter might not have.



My point is, in a sentence: "Many of these people are ignorant, not alt-right."

And in another sentence: "It makes it easier for them to ignore us if they can point to how we over-labeling people."

Finally: "The problem of actual alt-right Nazis is not as widespread as we're making it out to be. There are people who can be talked to/flipped in election times."

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Other than Shapiro (who I'm fairly sure considers himself to be a boiler plate conservative) I'd agree with all of that.

 

[Deleted member 4461]

Like, did you miss Charlottesville? Or Parkland? And did you also miss Spencer cancelling his tour because of how few people are showing up to his speeches after the face punching?

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First, to the bolded... I said that in the post you quoted.

Charlottesville, no, didn't miss that.

Parkland - according to Snopes, it's unproven that he belonged to a white supremacist group. But considering he seemed REALLY fucking racist, I'm not gonna split hairs on whether he's a Nazi or not - I'll give you that.

 

[New Fang]

You have to be an idiot to think Obama and Trump are both good presidents. They are so different that this isn't a logical point of view.

This is a very Scott Adams thing to say.

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

First, to the bolded... I said that in the post you quoted.

Charlottesville, no, didn't miss that.

Parkland - according to Snopes, it's unproven that he belonged to a white supremacist group. But considering he seemed REALLY fucking racist, I'm not gonna split hairs on whether he's a Nazi or not - I'll give you that.

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Then what the fuck were you saying in what I just quoted?

 

[Tesseract]

apparently there's 60 million nazis living in america

 

[ItsBobbyDarin]

You mean the people that have magically convinced themselves they're "one of the good ones" only to be used and abused by the rich white men? (Ala Kanye?)
Stupidity isn't an excuse.

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Nah, I wasn't talking about people like Kanye, but someone as Robert F Smith, whom is part of the "white rich asshole club".

What I am trying to state is, that you cannot just label anyone X, just because they share some ideologies from X.

I am a socialist, but I am not a communist, and socialism and communism is not the same.

 

[Gulgan Shulgan]

Yes, it very much feels like a "You're either with us, or with the terrorists" situation when it comes to labelling people's political opinions these days.

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Yeah for real. And as a term I see it thrown around a lot. I'd say it's embarrassing but it's not like conservatives don't wrongfully profile liberals all the time too. "Alt-Right Scum" is a label I've seen put on a whole lot of people pretty generously, and you can even see in this thread where people are using the term interchangeably with "far right" or just "right leaning"

As a society we're too quick to label each other as it is, especially politically.

 

[Book One]

Scott Adams says that Trump wasn't referring to white supremacists at Charlottesville when he said there were 'fine people' on both sides. Adams claims Trump was, of course, being thoughtful and nuanced and was referring ONLY to the mystical average Republicans holding tiki torches that were there simply because they cared about 'historical monuments'.

He refers to this as the 'Charlottesville Hoax'.


Ignorant or alt right? There's not much difference and for most subjects it really doesn't matter.

 

[Fauxpaw]

In the 1920s (and earlier), we could label women as "hysterical", and label people as "idiots" and put them in asylums and forcibly sterilize them. So yes, we've used labels to justify horrifying things in the past. Thing is, it's those in positions of power who can actually cause harm. It's why minorities are sick and tired of being told to "play nice and things will improve! Peace and love!" while members of our groups get attacked, raped, and murdered. We're tired of desperately pleading to be believed, and for people to take our word on our experiences and how it's equipped us to see bigotry when those outside our group are too ignorant to see it themselves. Which isn't a knock. Experience gives you knowledge. I'll trust the word of an engineer working 10+ years in his field over one with a bachelor's fresh out of school. Difference there, though, is that no amount of learning will make you ever truly experience being a minority. We're told by people to eat the shit life serves us when they will never, ever have to deal with that shit themselves.

I'm sorry this is getting off-topic from the OP, but I just can't give nearly as much of a care about some white dude with a popular comic whining about being mislabeled(which he wasn't) when the very person he supports will result in the actual deaths of hundreds and thousands of people. And people care way more for the semantics of this shit than the actual people who are affected every day of their lives. When you actually care about helping people and supporting them, you're not looking for some "gotcha" to give yourself an excuse to not listen to a minority or their issues.

And no, I'm not about labeling someone alt-right all willy-nilly nor do I think it doesn't happen (it clearly does). But the actual harm of that is nothing, nothing compared to the damage done to minorities when we play this game and tell liberals they're too mean to get people to care. And allowing actual alt-righters to continue to push this narrative of mislabeling continues to give them the cover they need. They rely on the well-to-do "fair for everyone" folks who are too naive or ignorant to see how it's used against them and the minorities they claim to care about. I see this play out all the time when it comes to sexual assault, and the people doing the assaulting either 1.) Wink wink think you're part of the group, or 2.) Use what you say to cover for themselves. Meanwhile, no actual help goes to victims because we're all too busy playing semantics instead of focusing on the actual victims and how to help them. It's exhausting.

 

[Deleted member 4461]

I don't Lewis, and Breitbart always been shitty, google the guy who started and who it is named after.

and Scott Adams might is just regular america right wing
http://blog.dilbert.com/2017/12/11/black-lives-matter-blm-republicans-natural-allies/

Which the functional difference is dog whistles

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You're right; that's fair. I guess my point is that - as far as we can find evidence, Lewis didn't take part in any of that. Just worked there.

Also true about Adams, but he flips based on whatever is convenient. Again, he supported Hillary before making the switch to Trump. And many of his views aren't necessarily Republican...

Then again, he doesn't vote, so his opinion is worth even less anyways.

Then what the fuck were you saying in what I just quoted?

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I was saying that I hadn't seen any organized killings. But if you're counting Parkland, I guess so?

 

[Deleted member 4461]

Double post, pls delete

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

I was saying that I hadn't seen any organized killings. But if you're counting Parkland, I guess so?

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Why do they have to be organized?

 

[4859]

Do you hold people of a certain religion to the same principle?

Are they responsible, no matter how moderate they are, for the activities of anyone under that umbrella?

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Oh yeah, because people are born Into American political parties.

And what about them people with that there brown skin huh? Are they responsible for all them violent crimes them brown skins get up too?

Heh. Checkmate Libruls.

 

[Metallix87]

Are you saying that adults who intentionally emulate nazi behavior from about 80 years ago aren't deserving the label? Do they not earn it until they build chambers?

You could make the argument that some German citizens of that era were unwillingly participating in a horrific movement. But to intentionally adopt their behavior now? They're deliberately trying to participate. Why would you even defend that?

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I'm not defending anything. I'm saying it's disrespectful to both WW2 vets and victims of the Holocaust to use the term Nazi as liberally as people do today, both in real life and especially here. You might disagree, but that's my stance on it.

 

[Deleted member 176]

I mean, in the same post he explains that women can deal with the abortion question without men getting involved. So I'm not sure I'm with you there.



Did you just read the title?



That's definitely not what he was saying. Nazis are Nazis. He's saying that people call any other person who supports Trump "Nazis." Which is hella broad.

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Dilbert is a pretty outspoken white supremacist and MRA. He's an idiot but he knows what he's doing.

 

[Deleted member 4461]

Why do they have to be organized?

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I mean, you're calling them a terrorist group. Are they radicalizing some horrible people? Absolutely!

But that's one instance in a myriad of school shootings we had from people with varying beliefs.

They are still dangerous, and I absolutely believe that they should be stopped. I was mainly responding to you calling me complicit despite the fact I was not defending these people.

I'm not gonna die on a hill to defend actual Nazis and white supremacists, so we've veered a little off-topic.

Dilbert is a pretty outspoken white supremacist and MRA. He's an idiot but he knows what he's doing.

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Idk what to tell you other than to click the link in the OP.

 

[4859]

I'm not defending anything. I'm saying it's disrespectful to both WW2 vets and victims of the Holocaust to use the term Nazi as liberally as people do today, both in real life and especially here. You might disagree, but that's my stance on it.

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This isn't liberally. This is very specific.

Even fucking Godwin said, "yeah those are Nazis, call them nazis."

 

[Elegant Weapon]

Why do they have to be organized?

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it's easier to explain away "lone wolfs" which is why they've told each other to act alone as much as they can

so when a guy kills four black people in a Waffle house, they can play it off as random and the "totally liberal but agree with everything rightwing" centrists can look around and say "what nazis?"

 

[Metallix87]

This isn't liberally. This is very specific.

Even fucking Godwin said, "yeah those are Nazis, call them nazis."

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I honestly don't give a fuck what Godwin says on the matter. It's irrelevant, as it's his opinion. I don't think every right winger is a Nazi, and suggesting as much, which I see frequently, is offensive.

 

[Skelepuzzle]

I'm not defending anything. I'm saying it's disrespectful to both WW2 vets and victims of the Holocaust to use the term Nazi as liberally as people do today, both in real life and especially here. You might disagree, but that's my stance on it.

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Wouldn't ignoring an adult who still chooses to do nazi salutes be more disrespectful to the heroes and victims of WWII than calling them out on it? You think they wanted this to go unchecked? Calling them nazis seems like the bare minimum amount of effort. I don't know if wearing a blindfold honors anyone.

 

[4859]

I honestly don't give a fuck what Godwin says on the matter. It's irrelevant, as it's his opinion. I don't think every right winger is a Nazi, and suggesting as much, which I see frequently, is offensive.

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That's kinda hilarious as your entire argument is literally pearl clutching Godwin law.

Every right winger left is perfectly fine with sitting next to Nazis, or looking the other way to get what they want.

It doesn't matter if they don't have a swastika tattooed on their arm. They are fucking complicit. The distinction between nazi, and not a nazi but I'm ok with them as long as they help me get lower taxes is fucking meaningless.

This isn't something like liking pineapple on pizza. Well i guess we agree to disagree. No. It's fucking nazis. There is no middle ground. Middle ground is complicit.

 

[Scuffed]

Not that important but I miss when Pepe meme's could be used without the alt-right label. I know the alt-right started using it and made plenty of racist versions of Pepe but I hate that anything they decide to try and co-opt is just relinquished to them.

 

[NoName999]

Scott Adams says that Trump wasn't referring to white supremacists at Charlottesville when he said there were 'fine people' on both sides. Adams claims Trump was, of course, being thoughtful and nuanced and was referring ONLY to the mystical average Republicans holding tiki torches that were there simply because they cared about 'historical monuments'.

He refers to this as the 'Charlottesville Hoax'.


Ignorant or alt right? There's not much difference and for most subjects it really doesn't matter.

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Fucking this!

It's like ironic Nazism. Congrats, you're still spouting Nazi shit and the other person is not a mind reader.

 

[Skelepuzzle]

Not that important but I miss when Pepe meme's could be used without the alt-right label. I know the alt-right started using it and made plenty of racist versions of Pepe but I hate that anything they decide to try and co-opt is just relinquished to them.

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I seriously feel bad (ha) for the cartoonist, that has to feel like shit.

 

[Metallix87]

Wouldn't ignoring an adult who still chooses to do nazi salutes be more disrespectful to the heroes and victims of WWII than calling them out on it? You think they wanted this to go unchecked? Calling them nazis seems like the bare minimum amount of effort. I don't know if wearing a blindfold honors anyone.

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That's not the argument I'm making here. I wouldn't use the term on them, but you do you. To me, Nazi has a specific definition, and I'm not eager to use with frequency.

What I'm arguing is that the term is used too often, as a catch-all, especially on here, for anyone who is right wing. This has been growing for some time in the left vernacular, it didn't just spawn with Trump, but it's growing increasingly worse with each passing day.

That's kinda hilarious as your entire argument is literally pearl clutching Godwin law.

Every right winger left is perfectly fine with sitting next to Nazis, or looking the other way to get what they want.

It doesn't matter if they don't have a swastika tattooed on their arm. They are fucking complicit. The distinction between nazi, and not a nazi but I'm ok with them as long as they help me get lower taxes is fucking meaningless.

This isn't something like liking pineapple on pizza. Well i guess we agree to disagree. No. It's fucking nazis. There is no middle ground. Middle ground is complicit.

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By this logic, we're all complicit with a lot of fucking shit. Voted for Trump? Complicit in him bombing Syria. Voted for Obama? Complicit in him devastating Libya. Voted for Bush? Complicit in destabilizing Iraq.

 

[Elegant Weapon]

I mean, you're calling them a terrorist group. Are they radicalizing some horrible people? Absolutely!

But that's one instance in a myriad of school shootings we had from people with varying beliefs.

They are still dangerous, and I absolutely believe that they should be stopped. I was mainly responding to you calling me complicit despite the fact I was not defending these people.

I'm not gonna die on a hill to defend actual Nazis and white supremacists, so we've veered a little off-topic.

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https://www.splcenter.org/20180205/alt-right-killing-people

In such conditions, we cannot rely on pyramid structures of authority. You the individual have to pick up the slack. Every single one of you has to become an officer capable of independent activism. Our movement needs to start resembling a Leaderless Resistance.

Law goes on to cite a passage of an essay published by Klansman and Aryan Nationsassociate Louis Beam in The Seditionist titled, "Leaderless Resistance." The section isolated by Law encourages members of a "resistance movement against state tyranny" to decentralize command and organizational structures to avoid infiltration.

According to Griffin, "a 'self detonating lone wolf vanguardist' is someone who is radically alienated from society and who has given up on persuasion, a fanatacist who is inclined toward violent methods of bringing about eschatological political change, who usually acts alone or with an accomplice in the name of a movement without the support of assistance of any group, and who typically explodes, lashes out, or 'self detonates' without warning in rampage shootings, murder-suicides, and bombing campaigns."

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if you don't want to defend them, then stop defending them. Don't create qualifiers like "organized violence" as if all these murders are in a vacuum

the kid who bombed people, the Florida school shooter, the Waffle house murderer, the nazi that killed his girlfriend's parents, etc are all related

 

[Cranston]

And what about them people with that there brown skin huh? Are they responsible for all them violent crimes them brown skins get up too?

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Well quite. Lumping people into one category is pathetic, isn't it.

 

[NoName999]

Also I like how the people crying that we're overlabeling the alt right have no problem using labels like "neo liberal" "wall St shill" "cooperate stooge" when someone doesn't fall 100% in line with their socialist utopia.

I also like how the same ones always seem to turn the other way when blacks are called niggers, Muslims are called terrorists, gays are called fags, and Latinos are called illegals.

You're not doing a very good job hiding it, guys

By this logic, we're all complicit with a lot of fucking shit. Voted for Trump? Complicit in him bombing Syria. Voted for Obama? Complicit in him devastating Libya. Voted for Bush? Complicit in destabilizing Iraq.

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Don't be obtuse. It's not like Obama and Bush were going around saying we should bomb those countries during the general. Meanwhile, Trump keeps saying offensive shit every 5 seconds. We know where he stands on this.

 

[Metallix87]

Also I like how the people crying that we're overlabeling the alt right have no problem using labels like "neo liberal" "wall St shill" "cooperate stooge" when someone doesn't fall 100% in line with their socialist utopia.

I also like how the same ones always seem to turn the other way when blacks are called niggers, Muslims are called terrorists, gays are called fags, and Latinos are called illegals.

You're not doing a very good job hiding it, guys

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Name names, stop with the passive aggressive vagueries.

 

[Deleted member 14002]

Fascism is Fascism.

If someone wants an ethnostate and healthcare, ethnostate is clearly the dominant part of the conversation so the fact they want healthcare doesn't matter.

If it quacks like a duck..

 

[Fauxpaw]

By this logic, we're all complicit with a lot of fucking shit. Voted for Trump? Complicit in him bombing Syria. Voted for Obama? Complicit in him devastating Libya. Voted for Bush? Complicit in destabilizing Iraq.

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For me personally, I actually do feel this way to a point. When we vote for someone, like it or not, we are voting for ALL of them. It's up to us to decide what which person we feel best aligns with our views. Our candidate may eventually do something we feel is abhorrent, but we still voted for that person and by taking some responsibility, we can hopefully work to change it going forward.

 

[Skelepuzzle]

That's not the argument I'm making here. I wouldn't use the term on them, but you do you. To me, Nazi has a specific definition, and I'm not eager to use with frequency.

What I'm arguing is that the term is used too often, as a catch-all, especially on here, for anyone who is right wing. This has been growing for some time in the left vernacular, it didn't just spawn with Trump, but it's growing increasingly worse with each passing day.

By this logic, we're all complicit with a lot of fucking shit. Voted for Trump? Complicit in him bombing Syria. Voted for Obama? Complicit in him devastating Libya. Voted for Bush? Complicit in destabilizing Iraq.

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You've said that the term nazi is over used, and that people doing nazi salutes doesn't pass muster for being labeled as one. Can you describe the threshold for where the use of the term in modern day is appropriate?

For example, is this man a nazi? Are his parents?

 

[geomon]

There are Nazi's and there are Nazi Sympathizers. There are Alt-Right and there are Alt-Assholes.

 

[Metallix87]

You've said that the term nazi is over used, and that people doing nazi salutes doesn't pass muster for being labeled as one. Can you describe the threshold for where the use of the term in modern day is appropriate?

For example, is this man a nazi? Are his parents?

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I can't watch videos at work, sorry. I'm a teacher.

As for when it would be appropriate versus when it's not: I would call Richard Spencer a Nazi. He's a white supremacist, and has shown repeated interest in being an actual Nazi. I would not call random Republican senators Nazis. I probably wouldn't even call Milo a Nazi.

 

[4859]

Well quite. Lumping people into one category is pathetic, isn't it.

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You seriously don't understand the difference between the color of your skin, and what political party you have CHOSEN to support?

You don't understand why that is a massive false equivalence?

I can't watch videos at work, sorry. I'm a teacher.

As for when it would be appropriate versus when it's not: I would call Richard Spencer a Nazi. He's a white supremacist, and has shown repeated interest in being an actual Nazi. I would not call random Republican senators Nazis. I probably wouldn't even call Milo a Nazi.

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Oh a teacher. You familiar with the work of Dorothy Thompson?

 

[Orayn]

By this logic, we're all complicit with a lot of fucking shit. Voted for Trump? Complicit in him bombing Syria. Voted for Obama? Complicit in him devastating Libya. Voted for Bush? Complicit in destabilizing Iraq.

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This is all completely true and shouldn't be considered even remotely controversial.

 

[xbhaskarx]

Oh, no, I think most of the opinions he expresses are absolutely insane. His blog's comment section is even worse.

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Why are you reading his site in the first place? And why are you posting his garbage on here? And why are you trying to explain his awful views?

 

[Hero of the Wild]

What? Never....

 

[Metallix87]

Oh a teacher. You familiar with the work of Dorothy Thompson?

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Honestly, no, I'm not, and a quick Wiki search offered very little information on her.

 

[Cap G]

The problem is thinking that modern common usage of terms like "alt-right" and "nazi" are used to denote certain political beliefs and attitudes. It's all fluid and based in context.

Just look at all the people labelling Kanye alt-right. You and I both know he isn't a nazi, and he isn't a white supremacist. He's just a dumbfuck who hasn't opened a history book, and yet these labels are applied due to the power and influence he has over a lot of people and the need arises to label Kanye very strongly in response. All of these things are ways to say "social regressive" while co-opting more dangerous labels for the purpose of restating the perceived grave seriousness of the issue.

 

[okayfrog]

Alt-right was meant as a self-identifiable term, like, "I'm not a white supremacist/Nazi; I'm alt-right!" and then the media ran with it, and that's a problem as they did exactly what Spencer wanted them to do by legitimizing the term. Same goes for anyone who labels anyone with far-right beliefs as "alt-right." You can be a hateful person without being alt-right.