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subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,084
But that's not what you said here. The equivalent of that would be, we should improve the housing situation for people. You didn't say that though. You said we should handle it in this specific way and now you're getting push back with people pointing out issues with going that specific way.
That's a very complicated and more than thorough requirement for online discussion regarding big issues. Asking impossible questions is just an easy way to shoot down positions. I am sure someone can give him answers but not right now. He knows this. Y'all fell for it.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
So, again: you apply this same standard to discussions of racism, right? People who post that racism is bad are just handwaving away the inevitable truths of human nature, because they can't answer the obvious questions about how you undo deeply ingrained system racism?

If a specific solution to racism was given I would ask questions about how it would be implemented if it was obviously flawed. The questions I asked were not in response to people saying the housing market could be better, it was in response to a specific goal that would allegedly fix the housing market. Your unwillingness or inability to recognize the difference between this and your stupid straw man I'm sure goes a long way in explaining why simple questions destroy the proposal.
 

TyrantII

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,365
Boston
Why is there a working assumption that people only rent because they can't afford to own? Because that's wrong.

That. Renting, fiscally, can make much more sense as property owners are generally required by law to service the property with upkeep, keep it livable, pay taxes, ect. I don't see renting / landlording as inheritly unethical, unless were going to say any economic transaction is.

This argument seems to be gaining steam because rents, and housing in general are currently high. But the same things are happening to healthcare, education, really anything that isn't a cheap consumer good.

Concentration of wealth, and regulatory capture are the reasons across the board. From Housing to Healthcare; supply is being controlled because of government policy to limit it to as feewindividuals as possible, thus driving up rents. (See the billionaire tax cuts)

Most major cities for example have very poor zoning, where even the most mundane housing expansions need to weave and wave through zoning variances, board sign offs, and community approval. Thus, only the well connected get their stuff built, costs to build skyrocket, and demand is never met.

Hell, down the street from me is a proposal to build 1500 new units of housing on prime land for a eat/work/play neighborhood, and at the neighborhood meeting a bunch of old coots just want more office space and parking spaces, next to a neighborhood thats been crushed with traffic problems since the recovery.

The people that would live there, will move in here instead. They're coming, but the long time residents equate condos with gentrification and have this absurd belief that less housing will save them.

Instead, old stock will be bought up, renovated, consolodated and flipped.
 
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Gunter

Banned
Mar 30, 2019
110
It's just too easy to claim that a solution to all these problems is "the government should do it for everyone". What makes you think that system would be inherently ethical? Personal freedom is valued by most people and many would say any system that strips that away is unethical. Basically the ethical angle isn't the right way to go.

Also, the pushback on people asking for details on how government housing for all would work is interesting. I'm reminded of people who claim that a totally free market with no regulations works because of the invisible hand. "It will just work". Nah, you got to do better than just claim a perfectly ideal version of a specific system is a cure-all.
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
Find that dictionary yet?


In political/economic theory, notably socialist, Marxist, and most anarchist philosophies, the distinction between private and personal property is extremely important. Which items of property constitute which is open to debate. In some economic systems, such as capitalism, private and personal property are considered to be exactly equivalent.
  • Personal property or possessions includes "items intended for personal use" (e.g., one's toothbrush, clothes, homes, and vehicles, and sometimes money).[3] It must be gained in a socially fair manner, and the owner has a distributive right to exclude others.
  • Private property is a social relationship between the owner and persons deprived, i.e. not a relationship between person and thing. Private property may include artifacts, factories, mines, dams, infrastructure, natural vegetation, mountains, deserts and seas -- these generate capital for the owner without the owner having to perform any labour. Conversely, those who perform labour using somebody else's private property are deprived of the value of their work, and are instead given a salary that is disjointed from the value generated by the worker. Marxism considers it to be unfair that mere ownership of something should grant an individual free money and power over others
Are we done here?
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,557
That's a very complicated and more than thorough requirement for online discussion regarding big issues. Asking impossible questions is just an easy way to shoot down positions. I am sure someone can give him answers but not right now. He knows this. Y'all fell for it.
I dunno, I was thinking of answering him since I agreed with what you were saying, but he asked you so I figured I should let you give your ideas since they're likely different from mine.

Still I don't think we should be deterred from spreading our ideas because we're on the internet. I feel like putting your ideas out there helps if you can get people to understand them.


I think this statement is the crux of the thread. Some people are discussing the topic in theory while others are discussing in present reality.

Yeah, it's hard to have a realistic conversation with people that chastise you for not doing what one would do in their fantasy world. I have a hard time believing that people can live up to their own standards in the real world.
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193

Didn't realize wikipedia was a dictionary! And there's an entire entry before that you know. All of it explaining how to us in the reality we currently inhabit with the political and legal systems currently in place, personal property is private property. Miriam Webster and all their friends also include personal belongings in the definition of private property.

You can disagree, but understand yours is a tiny minority definition unimportant and irrelevant to current day real life.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,557
Well if we're using Wikipedia...

Private Property

Private property is a legal designation for the ownership of property by non-governmental legal entities.[1] Private property is distinguishable from public property, which is owned by a state entity; and from collective (or cooperative) property, which is owned by a group of non-governmental entities.[2][3] Private property can be either personal property (consumption goods) or capital goods. Private property is a legal concept defined and enforced by a country's political system.[4]

Says right there that private property can be personal property. This seems like arguing semantics at this point though.
 

Deleted member 48897

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 22, 2018
13,623
I see I missed the "but what about foreclosures" as though multiple forces that cause people to be left without a roof over their heads are bad (and that the 2008 financial crisis is not one of the most significant catalyzing events toward the political sea change against capitalism even 'with significant controls' specifically because of the massive number of foreclosures that happened in the wake of it)
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
User banned (2 weeks): Hostility over multiple posts in this thread, inflammatory accusation, accumulated infractions
Didn't realize wikipedia was a dictionary! And there's an entire entry before that you know. All of it explaining how to us in the reality we currently inhabit with the political and legal systems currently in place, personal property is private property. Miriam Webster and all their friends also include personal belongings in the definition of private property.
Right so you've been nothing but a bad faith troll sealioning this entire time. Got it.
 
Nov 9, 2017
3,777
Didn't realize wikipedia was a dictionary! And there's an entire entry before that you know. All of it explaining how to us in the reality we currently inhabit with the political and legal systems currently in place, personal property is private property. Miriam Webster and all their friends also include personal belongings in the definition of private property.

You can disagree, but understand yours is a tiny minority definition unimportant and irrelevant to current day real life.

Using a copy/paste job from part of a wikipedia article as a source of "academic terminology" to prove a point and then following it with a "Are we done here?" boom - mic drop one liner is pretty funny though.
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
Says right there that private property can be personal property. This seems like arguing semantics at this point though.

What's going on is that when discussing issues of capitalism we need a distinction between the property owned by capitalists for the purpose of gaining profit off other people's labor and personal items individual people own. Thus the distinctions between "private property" and "personal property"

KHarvey is just plugging their ears and humming loudly and refusing to engage in the conversation.
 

L176

Member
Jan 10, 2019
772
No. I've had four landlords plus one company as a landlord. I have never had bad experiences with them. Our last landlord didn't even raise the rent once during six years of living there. I know I've been extremely lucky.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
If a specific solution to racism was given I would ask questions about how it would be implemented if it was obviously flawed. The questions I asked were not in response to people saying the housing market could be better, it was in response to a specific goal that would allegedly fix the housing market. Your unwillingness or inability to recognize the difference between this and your stupid straw man I'm sure goes a long way in explaining why simple questions destroy the proposal.
Anyone who reads this thread can see the actual pattern that played out. Are landlords inherently unethical? Some people said yes, some people said no. Then a bunch of people who said no were so scandalized that people could see rent-seeking as unethical that they demanded justifications, and justifications for those justifications, until we get to now where you're demanding that people produce an entire transition plan for the economic model of the United States away from private ownership of property, because of the hilariously dunderheaded thinking that that's an "obvious" question that should be asked if someone says "yeah landlords are pretty shit."

Of course, if someone applied the same standard to interrogating the assumption that landlords are good, you would instantly get to a smug declaration that the American system is a flawed mess that could never work, because of the obvious bad outcomes it produces. But because it's the norm, you get dipshit arguments where people think they don't have to defend or justify any of that.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,557
Anyone who reads this thread can see the actual pattern that played out. Are landlords inherently unethical? Some people said yes, some people said no. Then a bunch of people who said no were so scandalized that people could see rent-seeking as unethical that they demanded justifications, and justifications for those justifications, until we get to now where you're demanding that people produce an entire transition plan for the economic model of the United States away from private ownership of property, because of the hilariously dunderheaded thinking that that's an "obvious" question that should be asked if someone says "yeah landlords are pretty shit."

Of course, if someone applied the same standard to interrogating the assumption that landlords are good, you would instantly get to a smug declaration that the American system is a flawed mess that could never work, because of the obvious bad outcomes it produces. But because it's the norm, you get dipshit arguments where people think they don't have to defend or justify any of that.
Talk about a persecution complex...
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Anyone who reads this thread can see the actual pattern that played out. Are landlords inherently unethical? Some people said yes, some people said no. Then a bunch of people who said no were so scandalized that people could see rent-seeking as unethical that they demanded justifications, and justifications for those justifications, until we get to now where you're demanding that people produce an entire transition plan for the economic model of the United States away from private ownership of property, because of the hilariously dunderheaded thinking that that's an "obvious" question that should be asked if someone says "yeah landlords are pretty shit."

Of course, if someone applied the same standard to interrogating the assumption that landlords are good, you would instantly get to a smug declaration that the American system is a flawed mess that could never work, because of the obvious bad outcomes it produces. But because it's the norm, you get dipshit arguments where people think they don't have to defend or justify any of that.

What thread are you reading? The response, again, is to specific proposals about a) why landlords are unethical and b) what alternate to them demonstrates their unethical nature.

I know you want an easy way to dismiss relevant points and important questions you don't like but you're bad at it and it's not working.
 

Riley

Member
Oct 25, 2017
540
USA
Are people under the impression that only the wealthy buy homes? All of my aunts and uncles came from Mexico with no education and no money. The one thing that is stressed in my family is home ownership because land meant everything back in Mexico. They all worked labor intensive jobs, saved money, had families, and bought houses. My parents did the same thing. All money saved always went to paying the principle of the house. Vacations and extravagant lifestyles were a foreign concept as most of them grew up in poor ranches.

People are acting like home ownership is the realm of people twirling their mustaches who spend their days thinking of ways to screw people over.

For people from other cultures it's the first step in upward mobility for a more stable life. Me, my sister, and my cousins are the first generation in my family that got an education and went to college and didn't have to destroy their bodies working because our parents were able to buy a house as a first step in social security.

You should all think beyond your bubble and see what families had to sacrifice in order to get a home for their children. Removing the most secure step of social mobility for people coming into this country with nothing is something I didn't expect to hear on this website, but the rent is too high from the cartoon landlords so fuck my family right?

Similar to my family, except we're a different culture. This thread is a trip.
 

Amakuni

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
154
There are some crappy landlords sure, but there are probably far more shitty tenants. My mom just sold her rental because she was fed up with shit her renters put her through. Late payments, filth everywhere, damaged furnishings, ect. When I was in college, the first house i lived in one guy had his girlfriend living in his room and another guy secretly had a large dog when there was a no pet policy.
 

Deleted member 2620

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,491
thinkin back to the time i got an eviction threat because my landlord missed my check in the stack and then just shrugged after an absolutely terrified younger me helped them find it at their office, fuckin mint

Anyone who reads this thread can see the actual pattern that played out. Are landlords inherently unethical? Some people said yes, some people said no. Then a bunch of people who said no were so scandalized that people could see rent-seeking as unethical that they demanded justifications, and justifications for those justifications, until we get to now where you're demanding that people produce an entire transition plan for the economic model of the United States away from private ownership of property, because of the hilariously dunderheaded thinking that that's an "obvious" question that should be asked if someone says "yeah landlords are pretty shit."

Of course, if someone applied the same standard to interrogating the assumption that landlords are good, you would instantly get to a smug declaration that the American system is a flawed mess that could never work, because of the obvious bad outcomes it produces. But because it's the norm, you get dipshit arguments where people think they don't have to defend or justify any of that.

good post
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
What thread are you reading? The response, again, is to specific proposals about a) why landlords are unethical and b) what alternate to them demonstrates their unethical nature.

Landlords are unethical because people need shelter to live and landlords hold it for ransom to suck profit out of people while doing no labor of their own.
 
Nov 9, 2017
3,777
What's going on is that when discussing issues of capitalism we need a distinction between the property owned by capitalists for the purpose of gaining profit off other people's labor and personal items individual people own. Thus the distinctions between "private property" and "personal property"

KHarvey is just plugging their ears and humming loudly and refusing to engage in the conversation.

The problem is that once the government has that much power, they essentially get to designate what is and isn't personal property. As of right now Donald Trump is the head of the government you wish to assign that much power to.

Even the wikipedia article you quoted states that money is only sometimes considered personal property. Government takes all of your money and then the only things you can have as personal property is what the government decides to give you.
 

alexiswrite

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,418
Anyone who reads this thread can see the actual pattern that played out. Are landlords inherently unethical? Some people said yes, some people said no. Then a bunch of people who said no were so scandalized that people could see rent-seeking as unethical that they demanded justifications, and justifications for those justifications, until we get to now where you're demanding that people produce an entire transition plan for the economic model of the United States away from private ownership of property, because of the hilariously dunderheaded thinking that that's an "obvious" question that should be asked if someone says "yeah landlords are pretty shit."

Of course, if someone applied the same standard to interrogating the assumption that landlords are good, you would instantly get to a smug declaration that the American system is a flawed mess that could never work, because of the obvious bad outcomes it produces. But because it's the norm, you get dipshit arguments where people think they don't have to defend or justify any of that.

I feel like this is such a narrow and uncharitable reading of what's going on here. People on both sides are posing to each other questions and arguments about this issue. And as a consequence of the discussion people throughout this thread have been saying that Private owning of housing should probably be abolished and that it should all be owned by the system. If people are going to say that, I don't think it's unreasonable for other people to ask those people questions about that stance. You're also allowed, of course, to ask people about their political stances or to critique them. I also don't think many people here believe the current American housing system is the best way to go, therefore that seems like a strawman to me. It feels like any disagreement with a radical change presented, is seen as an endorsement of the status quo, and that's just not true.
 

Cyanity

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,345
No? This is a ridiculous question. Most landlords suck, but there isn't some magical intrinsic unethicality to renting out your property.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,557
Landlords are unethical because people need shelter to live and landlords hold it for ransom to suck profit out of people while doing no labor of their own.
So let me ask you this. I'm a landlord, what do you think would happen if I sold my property aside the tenants getting kicked out? You think it would just become free? People choose not to buy property for many reasons sometimes. I'm not holding anything for ransom...
 

KHarvey16

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,193
Landlords are unethical because people need shelter to live and landlords hold it for ransom to suck profit out of people while doing no labor of their own.

That's not a proposal of how to fix those things. The proposal was being questioned. I can type it 10 more times if necessary.

Regarding this though...no labor? Like maintaining it and paying the mortgage, taxes and fees? Assuming the market based financial risk? Providing a service to avoid large upfront costs and previously mentioned maintenance and tax responsibilities? Lots of people rent because they want to.
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
So let me ask you this. I'm a landlord, what do you think would happen if I sold my property aside the tenants getting kicked out? You think it would just become free? People choose not to buy property for many reasons sometimes. I'm not holding anything for ransom...

Yes you are. It's just that the entire system we live in makes it so that you have to exist and act unethically. You exist in a capitalist system and are such forced to take such unethical actions.

You could not just give properties away to people because you lack the power to do so. You would run out of property and money quickly.

No individual can create broad change and it needs to be done on a systemic collective level.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
Landlords are unethical because people need shelter to live and landlords hold it for ransom to suck profit out of people while doing no labor of their own.
In what universe does taking responsibility for a building not require any labor?

We have people in this thread and others talk about loving renting because they get to offload all the responsibilities of owning your apartment or house.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,557
Yes you are. It's just that the entire system we live in makes it so that you have to exist and act unethically. You exist in a capitalist system and are such forced to take such unethical actions.

You could not just give properties away to people because you lack the power to do so. You would run out of property and money quickly.

No individual can create broad change and it needs to be done on a systemic collective level.
Well I don't think the system we live in being unethical makes the people in it unethical. By your definition pretty much every US citizen would be unethical and it would pretty much all be for the same reason. It's fine if you believe that but there isn't much more this conversation will bring other than a disagreement.
 

Pata Hikari

Banned
Jan 15, 2018
2,030
Well I don't think the system we live in being unethical makes the people in it unethical. By your definition pretty much every US citizen would be unethical and it would pretty much all be for the same reason. It's fine if you believe that but there isn't much more this conversation will bring other than a disagreement.

Yup! I myself work for Amazon, a massively evil and unethical company and I don't really have a choice because I personally need money to live.

"There's no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism" exists as a phrase for a reason. We're all trapped in an unethical system.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,557
In what universe does taking responsibility for a building not require any labor?

We have people in this thread and others talk about loving renting because they get to offload all the responsibilities of owning your apartment or house.
People who don't yet own property rarely understand this. I'm not saying it's intense labor or anything, but any homeowner will tell you that maintaining their own property is no easy task, and that's from people who are trying their best to take care of their own living space.