I never questioned whether Negan "makes sense" or not. I just loathe his dumb face and the stupid show he's from.
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Are guest characters becoming too prevalent in Fighting games?
- Thread starter Twenty5Thousand
- Start date
The more the merrier. The genre should celebrate itself more, and guests from other genres/media was always a part of the games too.
Everybody wanted to play as a super Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan back then. Everybody wants to experiment with the full fighting capabilities of action heroes now.
Everybody wanted to play as a super Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan back then. Everybody wants to experiment with the full fighting capabilities of action heroes now.
But he still sticks to them, albeit more rigidly for first-party franchises. Though the one he seems to be consistent on is the main-characters-first thing.....for better or worse.
Personally not a fan of it. Smash Bros has too many guests at this point I would rather have obscure Nintendo character than Persona guy. I'm glad SFV has pretty much stayed away from it other than final fight characters and costumes from other Capcom games. Luckily these characters are usually part of the season passes so i just don't buy them anymore.
I see this position often pushed forth, but 5 big series seems more than enough to lead a fighting game.
Monster Hunter
Resident Evil
Devil May Cry
Street Fighter
Mega Man
I think those five would carry more than enough brand recognition, with characters from less mainstream series thrown in to complete the roster.
I'm pretty sure FE was localized due to Advance Wars' success. If Smash were the main motivation they'd have gone with Roy's game, or made the next game a direct sequel also starring Roy, rather than a prequel with his father.
I feel like Negan was a step too far for Tekken, but I suppose I can't argue with the results.
Good luck trying to sell someone like Wonder Red as DLC.
True, but they'd be under the Capcom brand rather than said brands you mentioned, which isn't nearly as strong. Even Smash had to start off smaller than most Nintendo games despite the big names it had. Capcom All-Stars/Capcom Versus/etc. is probably only gonna sell MvCI or Mega Man 11 numbers at best on its first go. But if Capcom plays their cards right (insert Teppen reference here), it can be a good foundation to build from going forward if they so choose as long as they don't break the bank budget-wise.
Well, this whole discussion started because someone said I had no reason to believe they have no interest in Nintendo content anymore, even though this game barely added new Nintendo stuff in comparison to guests. If the rules are to only rule out first party characters (as Joker and Banjo break two of the biggest ones), why would I change my personal expectations?
I didn't say it was localized due to Smash, but that it sold well in the west just after the FE characters were well received in Melee. And well, I don't think there's a lot to argue when Sakurai said a few times about how important Smash was to promote FE. Don't you think Astral Chain devs would think a Smash appearance would be great for their marketing?
I generally don't like them. It's always taking a slot from series characters and I'll always be much more interested in those. That said, I understand why they do it, if it makes enough of an impact on sales to allow for continued support them I'm ultimately for it. Still not a fan though.
Obviously crossover fighters which are built entirely around this are fine & great, don't want those going anywhere.
Kinda surprised at the thread responses tbh, thought people were more down on this than they are apparently.
Obviously crossover fighters which are built entirely around this are fine & great, don't want those going anywhere.
Kinda surprised at the thread responses tbh, thought people were more down on this than they are apparently.
I'm sure they're still interested, but many of them wouldn't be an easy sell as DLC. And by now, games like ARMS & Xenoblade 2 (while successful) are old news. As for your other point, I'm sure the Astral Chain team would appreciate it, but Sakurai would basically have to roll the dice on if it'll be a success or not. Going back to ARMS, even Yabuki said that it was too soon to include a playable ARMS character in Smash.
Most guests don't really apply to Story Mode (Akuma being one of the outliers in Tekken 7).
Both in MK and Injustice the guest characters get plenty of interaction with the cast even if they don't feature in a full fledged story mode. I think other games also have this sort of interstitial interacting, too. These might be brief, but I still think they're fun story interactions.
It didn't help Radiant Dawn's sales in spite of Ike's inclusion though. The game performed badly enough at the time that Nintendo told IS staff they shouldn't make another console FE. Ike himself became really popular as a character, but that popularity didn't translate into game sales.
Now, obviously, they'd appreciate the extra marketing, but it's really not a factor as decisive as you're suggesting.
In Capcom's case, they could position this game as a successor to the Marvel Vs series (3 vs 3, assists and such) which would give the game a basis rather than starting from zero.
That's actually a fair point, & I appreciate that this was done more in MK11. I wanted to see more interactions in Injustice 2.
Yeah I wouldnt even buy that. But I would buy Chorus Kids or something similar. I know season passes are to maximize units sold but I would like season passes to have a chance at including obscure character or "ugly" characters that even capcom stays away from in their season passes. Also I fucking hate the hiding who the characters are mostly on Namco games.
But they weren't in the base game too, that's the problem. We only got Splatoon as that was way too big to not be added and even it feels a bit half assed with no Splatoon 2 stuff, a bad stage and the moveset being kinda weird. It felt like less of a big deal to them than Castlevania, that got way more songs and remixes, a big good trailer, lots of promotion, etc. It's hard to think adding Nintendo stuff is a priority when looking at the game as a whole with even bosses and new ATs not having many Nintendo characters added.
I think anything can sell as DLC in a season pass, but they clearly didn't want anything Nintendo there, even with their own popular characters and franchises existing. So it's hard to expect it will change in the future. I read even the Sakurai columns and he only talks about working with other companies now and how it's not anymore focused on Nintendo. It's hard to believe I'll ever see it again adding Nintendo content in a significant way, I mean the game is made by a freelancer director and a Bamco studio...
My point is that Smash helps still. Would FE survive two bomba games like the Tellius games without Smash? And would it survive the DS remakes? I honestly don't think so. Awakening and Fates got most of their sales in the west and Smash played an important part into the franchise's history in that side of the world.
I'd give the 'add anime to Smash' fans the time of day if they rooted for good anime like Gintama rather than Dragon Ball Z all the time.
It's kind of a rhetorical question if the Astral Chain devs would want their character put in Smash to help get awareness. Of course they would. But after the backlash to Corrin I doubt Nintendo would take a risk like that (who wants to pay for an advertisement?).
After that "backlash" Fates became the best selling strategy RPG game ever with 3M sales and its characters are used to make loads of money in their most popular mobile game. It either paid off or didn't impact them in a negative way at all.
The primary concern with selling fighter DLC is to sell the characters. They aren't going to invest all of that money and resources into a character from a brand new, unproven IP.
I get it. DLC characters are mostly made to sell to people who likely are already into the game (sales charts show this as games don't get "bumped" when a new single guest character releases), so I still think it makes more sense to use it as a way to build your own brands and they could benefit more from it. But I agree these guest would sell more individually and if that's their focus, it "makes sense" -- but in a financial way company-wise I feel like Corrin pays off more than a Ryu to them.
I mean, it depends.
It kind of sucks on long, established series where it seems every character seems to have to fight for even a roster spot. SFV has had me shaking my head a few times at this, as I'd rather have Makoto in over characters from another series.
Then you have series like Mortal Kombat, where I'd rather have a more consistent roster over every game with some of my favorites instead of them throwing in random horror characters just because.
But you also have Smash, where the game had every character they ever had in it as a base before doing their guest characters, which I see little wrong with(especially since they usually have older characters that have been on Nintendo platforms awhile(Joker is weird but makes sense over something like the MC from SMTIV because of being more iconic at this current time)).
It kind of sucks on long, established series where it seems every character seems to have to fight for even a roster spot. SFV has had me shaking my head a few times at this, as I'd rather have Makoto in over characters from another series.
Then you have series like Mortal Kombat, where I'd rather have a more consistent roster over every game with some of my favorites instead of them throwing in random horror characters just because.
But you also have Smash, where the game had every character they ever had in it as a base before doing their guest characters, which I see little wrong with(especially since they usually have older characters that have been on Nintendo platforms awhile(Joker is weird but makes sense over something like the MC from SMTIV because of being more iconic at this current time)).
I like them when they fit the game and don't mess with the normal systems. Geralt is great, he's a perfect fit, and built hype for a game that needed it. Akuma in Tekken otoh I could do without - he doesn't play like a Tekken character and it feels like you're playing a different game when you play against him.
So to answer the original question... maybe?
So to answer the original question... maybe?
Splatoon was inevitable, as it was a proven success months before the base roster was finalized. Splatoon 2 was just too recent to have any major content in the base game, as much as I would have liked the Splatoon 2 Inkling Girl as the default. Also, Castlevania got in via the Ballot, & Sakurai let the composers choose what songs they want to do.
To answer the question in the thread title no.
Beyond that, Negan is certainly a more reasonable pick for Tekken than Noctis and 2B, Star Wars and Spawn for Soul Calibur and attracts a different audience than normal. While there are better guests choices like Kiryu, Negan certainly isn't out of place in Tekken of all games.
In regards to Smash, all Nintendo characters of note are included. I love Rythmn Heaven but at best I'd only hope for a stage and not an actual character and well this game the only new stages we got that didn't come with a new character were for Mario and Zelda.
Beyond that in regards to characters for the pass they don't have anything left that wouldn't be meh alongside the other dlc choices. Joker was probably Atlus' personal pick as well as a character Sakurai personally loved. While I personally wanted Jack Frost, Joker is Altus' new golden child so he makes sense and is agrueably the face of JRPGs right now. Hero is from DQ the last huge franchise from Japan with major Nintendo history that wasn't representated and is easily bigger than any other JRPG character they could have picked (This includes Rex who the general public just doesn't care about.) Lastly of the characters we know so far Banjo was huge during the N64 era and was almost in Melee, needless to say he was another Krool and Ridley style dream character. All 3 of these characters are known by the greater gaming community and not just current Nintendo fans, which is why they made decent choices to sell passes.
The only character I can think of off the top of my head that is more low-key then these 3 that might have a shot is Shantae but even then I put her chances at only 20%.
Beyond that, Negan is certainly a more reasonable pick for Tekken than Noctis and 2B, Star Wars and Spawn for Soul Calibur and attracts a different audience than normal. While there are better guests choices like Kiryu, Negan certainly isn't out of place in Tekken of all games.
In regards to Smash, all Nintendo characters of note are included. I love Rythmn Heaven but at best I'd only hope for a stage and not an actual character and well this game the only new stages we got that didn't come with a new character were for Mario and Zelda.
Beyond that in regards to characters for the pass they don't have anything left that wouldn't be meh alongside the other dlc choices. Joker was probably Atlus' personal pick as well as a character Sakurai personally loved. While I personally wanted Jack Frost, Joker is Altus' new golden child so he makes sense and is agrueably the face of JRPGs right now. Hero is from DQ the last huge franchise from Japan with major Nintendo history that wasn't representated and is easily bigger than any other JRPG character they could have picked (This includes Rex who the general public just doesn't care about.) Lastly of the characters we know so far Banjo was huge during the N64 era and was almost in Melee, needless to say he was another Krool and Ridley style dream character. All 3 of these characters are known by the greater gaming community and not just current Nintendo fans, which is why they made decent choices to sell passes.
The only character I can think of off the top of my head that is more low-key then these 3 that might have a shot is Shantae but even then I put her chances at only 20%.
No way, keep 'em coming. The more crossover guest characters, the better!
...At least in Smash, and I find it weird that you included it on your list. The others, fine (even if I still don't agree), but Smash is literally designed to be a celebration of video games old and new and that hasn't been limited to just Nintendo since way back in Brawl. The crossover element of one roster including so many legendary gaming icons from different companies like Mario, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Cloud, and Snake is an inherent part of its mass appeal.
...At least in Smash, and I find it weird that you included it on your list. The others, fine (even if I still don't agree), but Smash is literally designed to be a celebration of video games old and new and that hasn't been limited to just Nintendo since way back in Brawl. The crossover element of one roster including so many legendary gaming icons from different companies like Mario, Sonic, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Cloud, and Snake is an inherent part of its mass appeal.
I mean, like I'm saying, is it just a coincidence that everything in this game makes up the Nintendo content small and less prioritized? We got only 1 new IP, few new stages, poor selection of remixes (they should control it instead of letting Mega Man get everything), not many new bosses and ATs, trophies got removed, etc.
As someone who played Smash 4 for 1k hours+ between casual play and going to tournaments, Ultimate gave me few new Nintendo content to play with. Ridley and K Rool are great, Isabelle is good but she's veeery similar to Villager, Inkling is alright but feels like a dated character from the go due to the lack of Splat2 and Incineroar is cool but another Pokémon and very vanilla. A brand new Smash game that only added 5 new Nintendo characters and most of them don't feel too special. :/
Again, the Splatoon 2 analogy comes down to timing more than anything else, something that has been mostly consistent outside of smaller stuff like Luigi's new Poltergust. We're always gonna get a new Pokémon, at least as long as Sakurai is in charge. And as much as I miss trophies, they were a sacrifice to bring back every veteran.
As for new IPs, Splatoon was the only big one from Nintendo in that time. Plus this was a roster with less room for newcomers on Day 1 due to everyone returning & there being a Smash Ballot to account for.
But SFV doesn't have any guests.
The difference is that Corrin is from an established franchise whose game was already released in Japan when they were chosen. Akira Howard was an unknown quantity at the time & is, even now, still an unproven one.
It doesn't change the fact that they could at least interact with the dev team or make something more interesting. It feels outdated and not as well represented as characters like Simon or Hero.
And I don't like this argument because it kinda proves the change of perception of Nintendo's franchises and legacy due to Smash. Now a bunch of Nintendo franchises are called "irrelevant" to get in Smash, no matter if they're good or part of their history (in Rhythm Heaven's case it's a bigger seller than even Persona). Back in the Brawl days I got into forums exactly to talk and learn about possible new franchises, the Smashboards kind of discussion was fun and people didn't come up too much with the "nah, too niche" argument like today.
NRS fans get disappointed all the time because they don't get their characters due to the guest character focus, I just feel the same way but towards Smash as it was the only Nintendo crossover game and suddenly I'm told it's not that anymore.
Looking back, outside of retro picks like Ice Climbers & Duck Hunt, most of the characters who got in were either still relevant at the time, had massive fan demand behind them, or both. The main differences now are that the Roy situation likely scared Sakurai off from including characters from games that are unreleased at the time of selection (Ex: Astral Chain for DLC), we're starting to run out of successful Nintendo IPs, & there being a bigger focus on guests.
As for Splatoon 2, maybe the Splatoon team didn't lock down any plans for mechanics & designs in that game as of February 2016 (when Ultimate development began).
As someone who's generally not playing and mostly looking in on the outside I'm cool with it if they're handled well enough. I'm way hyped to see Spawn voiced by Keith David in MK11 and Geese in Tekken is cool as hell.
That's the thing, guests can be awesome when they fit the game they're being included in.
To add on to this, Smash roster speculation has almost completely turned into one giant "My favorite series is more important than your favorite series" pissing match thanks to guest characters. You don't need to look any further than the reaction to Hero for proof of that.
I don't think they ran out at all from their rich catalogue. It's just that now it's harder for Nintendo characters to get in than guests. Like I said, Rhythm Heaven sold more than Persona, they own it, tsunku wants it in Smash, but somehow it gets nothing. They have also a bunch of popular characters in franchises already represented, like a new Zelda character (Skull Kid, Impa, Tingle), Waluigi, Ashley, etc. They could coordinate better to add fast popular new characters/franchises like Rex or Spring Man. They simply just don't do any of it.
Splatoon 2 is also probably going to beat 10M sales lifetime and won't get represented even as DLC. They could do Agent 8 as a DLC character, for example.
They also could focus more on balancing representation and adding less popular characters, like Tethi from Ever Oasis, over one or two "internet hype" guests to have a more diverse cast. They had options enough at least to not go a whole game (that will last years) with less Nintendo characters added than even Smash 64.
Yeah, I got told the series I like are irrelevant way too many times. It's just a popularity contest fight now.
Guest characters pay the bills and get people talking about the game who otherwise wouldn't care.
I generally dislike guest characters. It takes me out of the game when I see something like Battletoads show up in Killer Instinct, or Geralt in Soul Calibur. I like my fighting games have and internally consistent worlds, and when somehow Darth Adler shows up it just kills it.
The exceptions are when fighting games are based around being a huge grab bag (Smash, MvC) or when characters from own fighting game series guest in another (Virtua Fighter and KOF in DOA, or SF in Tekken)
The exceptions are when fighting games are based around being a huge grab bag (Smash, MvC) or when characters from own fighting game series guest in another (Virtua Fighter and KOF in DOA, or SF in Tekken)
The problem for new characters is that they usually finalize the moveset before development begins, with the only outlier for this being Pokémon. It would be a bit problematic to have to constantly change the character during development if Spring Man & Rex were in the base roster.
My main concern is that too many crossovers leads to Preservation difficulties in an Official/Legal capacity - Like the Limbo that Breath of Fire 3 got stuck in when it came to Digital re-release. Where the PS1 version had Crossover content that Capcom no longer had the license to anymore, but couldn't edit out - Whilst the PSP version was rid of it, but couldn't be released in NA because of Stolaresque SCEA dogma (The "10% New Content" Policy).
Would not be surprised to see Smash 4 or Ultimate go out of (digital) circulation next-gen before their respective eShops go down.
Would not be surprised to see Smash 4 or Ultimate go out of (digital) circulation next-gen before their respective eShops go down.
I'm ok with them but like others said the future concern of digital distrobution has me slightly concerned. I don't plan on playing the games forever or anything but we have seen attempts at re-releases or remasters hindered by this sort of thing.
Personally guests don't bother me if its just one or two, relying on them too much in games that are not essentially all guests like Smash is where I have issue.
ALSO STOP PUTTING THEM ON THE COVER SOUL CALIBUR
Personally guests don't bother me if its just one or two, relying on them too much in games that are not essentially all guests like Smash is where I have issue.
ALSO STOP PUTTING THEM ON THE COVER SOUL CALIBUR
I see where people are coming from with not liking guest characters, but by and large I love it. Link is what got me to buy Soul Calibur 2, and it ended up being one of my all-time favorite games, with or without him. Negan in Tekken 7 and the Star Wars characters in Soul Calibur 4 are the only ones I can think of that were huge misses to me, and it's more down to those just seeming like weird fits with the rest of the cast.
As a huge fan of Smash and of pretty much all the third party series now represented in it (Persona excluded), there is a part of me that misses the simplicity of it being a Nintendo fighting game. Joker is fun and the Persona music included alone makes him worth it, but I probably would have much rather had Bandana Waddle Dee or Paper Mario in the game. Still, I think the pros outweigh the cons when it comes to third party representation in Smash.
As a huge fan of Smash and of pretty much all the third party series now represented in it (Persona excluded), there is a part of me that misses the simplicity of it being a Nintendo fighting game. Joker is fun and the Persona music included alone makes him worth it, but I probably would have much rather had Bandana Waddle Dee or Paper Mario in the game. Still, I think the pros outweigh the cons when it comes to third party representation in Smash.
I think one of the things I like most about guest characters in Fighting Games is that I have never really been about tiers, I just like characters that I like and having these other options can really extend the life of a game.
