Nah, that'd be mostly fine, because the reactionary crowd loves their waifus making out with other waifus.
Now if male Byleth was exclusively gay, or the male house leaders were, then yeah, we'd have an SJW crisis on our hands.
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Are gay people *entitled* to the same amount of romance options as straight people in self-insert games?
- Thread starter P-Tux7
- Start date
Nah, that'd be mostly fine, because the reactionary crowd loves their waifus making out with other waifus.
Now if male Byleth was exclusively gay, or the male house leaders were, then yeah, we'd have an SJW crisis on our hands.
Absolutely yes.
You are creating a chrachter and their sexuality is a part of that
On a side note I think the more games that have it the better to normalise it
You are creating a chrachter and their sexuality is a part of that
On a side note I think the more games that have it the better to normalise it
Yes the LGBT community should totally be entitled to the same level of bad writing n tripe romances as straight people.
It doesn't hurt the story, it doesn't hurt the characters, and you give all your playerbase a lot of options, as oppose to just some of it.
It doesn't hurt the story, it doesn't hurt the characters, and you give all your playerbase a lot of options, as oppose to just some of it.
Games like these need more exclusively one type of way, a gay lord would be dope, but also need shit like where you the player character can express romantic interest, but the supporting character can friendzone you.
It is borderline creepy the type of convos that turn into relationships in games like fire emblem, persona, mass effect.
Entitled? Nah I don't think so. Just like I don't think straight people are entitled to romantic options.
I'm ok with game devs only having the romantic options they want.
With that said I understand the discrimination and lack of representation that gay people endure, so I'd applaud some devs purposefully over representing some gay relationships in their games.
I'm ok with game devs only having the romantic options they want.
With that said I understand the discrimination and lack of representation that gay people endure, so I'd applaud some devs purposefully over representing some gay relationships in their games.
if youre a developer that is going to invest studio dollars and dev time in making a custom player avatar builder in 2019, what the hell are you thinking by NOT allowing any combination of gender/orientation/appearance? Yes, full representation should be the standard and yes LGBTQ+ are 'entitled' to it, as you put it.
No, but gay folks are free to express their dismay, unhappiness, etc., with said options as long as it comes in healthy ways (emails to the company, tweets that don't threaten death or anything, etc.)
And companies that don't serve the needs of their LGBT+ audiences are not entitled to the money of those audiences.
And companies that don't serve the needs of their LGBT+ audiences are not entitled to the money of those audiences.
This also reflects my feelings on the matter.
Agreed.
I think you need to peel this onion down to its complete core. Strip away the politics, the homophobic crap, the numbers, the fan reactions, etc.
What do we have? The character itself. When you create a character, It needs to be a natural process. You shouldn't be thinking of adding sexual preference once you already have a list of characters in your game/movie and assigning them based on a number to hit. No. You need to think about sexual preference when each individual character is being crafted. TRUE representation doesn't come from checkbox/numbers. It comes from honestly crafting a LGTBQ character from the ground up with THAT in mind. Giving it realism and depth.
Thats the problem I see. Companies think a sentence in game indicating LGTBQ is enough. It isn't. It needs to be apart of their identity and be a core pillar of who they are in the game.
Example: Disney/Marvel coming out saying Valkyrie is LGTBQ in Thor 4. In Thor 3 where the character debuted, There was no indication of that. Therefore their representation here I feel is hollow since it came out of nowhere just to "check a box".
edit: Just to bring it full circle, Im advocating quality of representation is better than quantity. The total number vs. non-LGTBQ matters but I don't feel the industry is mature enough to maintain quality representation when pressured to equal the numbers.
What do we have? The character itself. When you create a character, It needs to be a natural process. You shouldn't be thinking of adding sexual preference once you already have a list of characters in your game/movie and assigning them based on a number to hit. No. You need to think about sexual preference when each individual character is being crafted. TRUE representation doesn't come from checkbox/numbers. It comes from honestly crafting a LGTBQ character from the ground up with THAT in mind. Giving it realism and depth.
Thats the problem I see. Companies think a sentence in game indicating LGTBQ is enough. It isn't. It needs to be apart of their identity and be a core pillar of who they are in the game.
Example: Disney/Marvel coming out saying Valkyrie is LGTBQ in Thor 4. In Thor 3 where the character debuted, There was no indication of that. Therefore their representation here I feel is hollow since it came out of nowhere just to "check a box".
edit: Just to bring it full circle, Im advocating quality of representation is better than quantity. The total number vs. non-LGTBQ matters but I don't feel the industry is mature enough to maintain quality representation when pressured to equal the numbers.
I know, I'm just hoping gaming start going for diversity to not feed a narrowminded idea of how a "LGBT" person looks and behaves. Don't make it easy for people, try bring down some walls instead. I haven't really thought about hyper femininity being a lesbian stereotype as well though, I guess it's more problematic for men, the typical Hollywood stereotype has unfortunately become too grounded there. That's why I liked Bill som much in TLOU, plus real life experiences, Bill actually got people to try making up other explanations than him being gay because he didn't fit into their agenda or whatever. That's when you know you're on the right track I think. Gaming just needs more main characters in AAA games in that role.
In a game like Fire Emblem which is about fluffy wish fulfilment, I think it's perfectly valid for every character to be pan
The simple idea that you can woo any partner in this type of games is fantasy in an of itself, so I can't think of any legitimate reason why non-heterosexual relationships shouldn't be given the same weight.
I saw this video recently and after reading a few of the post on the topic of how developers should represent the LGBT+ community, I just don't see how it can be done...
I honestly feel the developer struggle in this culture wars climate. There is no way a custom avatar builder in 2019 will not offend some minority through lack of representation.
This is the dark side of people labeling themselves and moving towards tribalism. We are all human. Treat EVERYONE like human. Thats the only label we need. Unfortunately this is an unrealistic pipe dream because of racists/homophobes/etc.
Good luck with that, my company tried to hire few LGBT people for better ad representation, but after 3 months of looking, they only found one persone. It was insanely costly situation, because they had to use recruiters, nobody responded to ads.
I definitely would applaud more options for everyone. I would also like to see options that are none of the above.
I look to older Fire Emblem games where talking to a person doesn't mean you're going to sleep with them. Well, minus FE4 I guess.
And, yes, main character sexual is also a cop out to me. I don't know any person - straight, bi, gay, or otherwise - that suddenly forgets their sexual preference because they're around the game's Jesus insert.
I look to older Fire Emblem games where talking to a person doesn't mean you're going to sleep with them. Well, minus FE4 I guess.
And, yes, main character sexual is also a cop out to me. I don't know any person - straight, bi, gay, or otherwise - that suddenly forgets their sexual preference because they're around the game's Jesus insert.
I dont think so. Especially if it means that every romanceable character needs to bi. Obviously the same goes both ways. I dont have a problem if a game had mostly gay characters (though im fairly certain no such game exists.)
Unfortunately no. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for there being more gay romance options and better representation in games; but to say you are entitled is a bit much. It takes resources to do these. And what about a developers vision for a game? Or where do we draw the line at who is entitled for representation?
In those types of self-insert, wish-fulfillment games? Abso-fucking-lutely. Unless you have a very good story reason for making a character exclusively straight or exclusively gay, everyone should basically just be bi in these types of games.
However, with as poor as LGBTQ romance options have been in games, especially for men, I can't help but feel that a focus on quantity over quality would just exacerbate the problem. I've played so many of games where the gay romance-able options are about as subtle and well-integrated into the character's writing as a giant yellow arrow over their head that says "THIS IS THE GAY ONE". The male romance option in FE:Three Houses is a terrific example of this. "Oh, we need a gay male character still? Uh, I guess they can have the sleepy one." It just feels like an afterthought so much of the time. So I can only imagine in a world where every character has to be written to be bisexual, the quality of writing would get even more shallow.
However, with as poor as LGBTQ romance options have been in games, especially for men, I can't help but feel that a focus on quantity over quality would just exacerbate the problem. I've played so many of games where the gay romance-able options are about as subtle and well-integrated into the character's writing as a giant yellow arrow over their head that says "THIS IS THE GAY ONE". The male romance option in FE:Three Houses is a terrific example of this. "Oh, we need a gay male character still? Uh, I guess they can have the sleepy one." It just feels like an afterthought so much of the time. So I can only imagine in a world where every character has to be written to be bisexual, the quality of writing would get even more shallow.
I think "entitlement" is a loaded word these days, but yes. Also, keep in mind that not only gay people enjoy gay romances; they're something that many het people can/do enjoy. More options are good.
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I agree with your points, but Valkyrie was subtly hinted at being gay in Thor 3.
I want more openly gay characters to be fair.
They are "entitled" to representation. Equal representation is more complicated as it involves budget and the writing ability of the staff, if a game has a large focus on characters/romance then the balance should be as close to equal as possible and if the writing staff has the desire/know how to write a majority homosexual cast then they should be allowed to. Raw numbers aren't the only thing to look at either, quality of writing is also important. One amazingly written romance option is worth more to me at least then three okay ones.
Only applies to DA2, very likely due to EA rushing Bioware on it so they didn't have time to flash out all aspects of the characters so they made them bisexual/MC-sexual.
In the mainstream space it seems to be quite equal at a glance, Bioware and Dragon Age have even splits, Stardew Valley has even number of boy/girl romance options, don't know about Persona.
No character in a huge big budget production is crafted "naturally," especially not in in Disney/MCU movies. They rely on safe, satisfying character archetypes, and also, the hotness of their actors/character models. They didn't organically happen onto 20 movies starring straight white guys with abs. (that's changing a little... good... more hot people of different demographics) It's true, Valkyrie in Thor Ragnarok wasn't a satisfying representation of a queer character as such because there was no indication that she was queer. That's changing, apparently. May she be horny, but not that horny, like most Marvel heroes.
I love getting very specific queer art by and for queer people but I'd happily take lowest-common denominator mass appeal art, but queer friendly, too.
No one is "entitled" to anything and that framing basically never holds for a piece of art or even just a product. There are so few things people are genuinely entitled to and they already don't get all of those.
The criticism though, continued pressure, and the expectation of growth and response - those are good and necessary.
BioWare did this with Mass Effect 3 and it didn't get a great response in retrospect. If everyone is bi than really no character has any defined sexuality at all. If you're gonna do LGBT characters, then do them. That means not every player will be able to pursue them romantically if playing strictly based on their own sexuality. And that's fine.
The criticism though, continued pressure, and the expectation of growth and response - those are good and necessary.
BioWare did this with Mass Effect 3 and it didn't get a great response in retrospect. If everyone is bi than really no character has any defined sexuality at all. If you're gonna do LGBT characters, then do them. That means not every player will be able to pursue them romantically if playing strictly based on their own sexuality. And that's fine.
Don't know why people find four to five queer people being friends in a city so hard to buy. Their queer sexuality was totally fleshed in the sense that there were definite indicators you were in a queer relationship in every case, as far as I know. The dialogue was not exactly the same. (as it is in FE3H's sole queer male relationship, at least)
Personally, don't think of casts with a disproportionate (compared to real world demographics) number of bi characters as "playersexual." I don't see why I should their sexuality as less real or more mutable than their combat readiness, equal number of interactions with player characters or among themselves, and similarly sized character arcs just because they've all been constructed for the player to have a certain kind of experience. Is a handsome space marine not a handsome space marine just because handsome space marines sell? I think he is!
In no game has BioWare done this. There was even a straight romanceable character in Dragon Age II. Mass Effect 3 had characters of varying sexualities - the one kind of rude thing it did was leave straight wlm Shepard hanging if she didn't come into that game with a boyfriend. (also, one of her boyfriends would even cheat on and leave her... would be fine if they did that to other people, I guess!) The one common denominator in BioWare games is they always make sure straight guys get the female leads. (still better for queer people than most other AAA game producers, by far)
I'm a femme lesbian myself so maybe I just notice it a lot more? Most of the time, if there's lesbian characters in any type of media, they tend to still be feminine and conventionally attractive so straight men can get off to them & won't complain. So the lack of butches is super obvious to me. I do agree that we need more well done non-butch lesbians too, but I think it's hard to get right since it'll always seem like they're feminine to please the fetishizing straight male audience when that couldn't be more far from the truth for actual lesbians. Gay men are really badly stereotyped too though and it's almost equally bad in every media because more often than not they're just there for comic relief which really fucking sucks. It's why I really loved Bill too! He was definitely a step in the right direction and I hope there'll be a lot more of that in TLOU2. There's a severe lack of good gay and lesbian representation in gaming aside from Bioware games and even they had their fair share of problems. Man, I hope one day we'll be past bad representation and have great characters across the board who we can like in good faith. :(
O...k I mean seriously how do you implement the non binary male female 'slider' visually. How many nested minority groups can they possibly cater from age, ethnicity, sexual expression, gender identity, body shape. Good luck to them.
Everyone who uses the term "culture war" can fuck off. No one is attacking a culture when they ask to have more inclusion, ie. better representation for minorities.
In essence, I'd say yes... however, what I'm more concerned about is all the well known female protagonists are still under the curse spell of "needing no man". It makes me sick to the stomach that we can have male protagonists assume straight relationships with a female character in their game, but for game series like Metroid where Samus is hella lonely and isolated, she can't have a man because she's just so... "stoic" on her own that she "don't need no man". Another series being Tomb Raider reboot, I always felt like Lara's relationship with Jonah was leading to somewhere, but I hear in Shadow he ended up with someone else. I hope Lara Croft can eventually settle in with someone nice to her suiting, and hopefully they can have a daughter so Lara Croft, eventually in her old and retired days, can pass down the torch to her as the next Tomb Raider, so instead of it being a father to daughter kind of thing, it can be different this time around that this time it's a mother to daughter... I also feel like in video game narratives, there are way too many father games with his child, but not visibly as many for mothers with her child.
I also pray for a day where all the well known female protagonists break out of that cursed spell and also assume after straight relationships with a man... be it romantically and/or sexually. I like to argue that no one NEEDS the opposite or even same gender/sex as if their sole life depends on that, but it's perfectly normal to WANT that kind of love and sexual relationship. I also like to argue that the ones that say the female protagonist "needs no man" are most likely guys themselves and can't afford the emotional or mental "strength/endurance" to see the female protagonist to have a straight relationship in their game because she "don't need no man" except the one controlling her and paid for a date with her, if you will, by purchasing her game.
I have always felt Bayonetta would have been a perfect way to introduce female protagonists going into straight relationships due to her pronounced sexuality that she wears so proudly... but even she somehow someway didn't dive into that too well. She would have been the perfect counter to Geralt in Witcher, and old school Kratos in od of War... who are both essentially speaking womanizer characters. Bayonetta would have been a perfect man-izer character.
All in all, it's a lot to fix in industries of representation. So yes, I feel everyone should get their due proper representation. Straight women, alongside with the LGBT community. Not just straight cis men.
I also pray for a day where all the well known female protagonists break out of that cursed spell and also assume after straight relationships with a man... be it romantically and/or sexually. I like to argue that no one NEEDS the opposite or even same gender/sex as if their sole life depends on that, but it's perfectly normal to WANT that kind of love and sexual relationship. I also like to argue that the ones that say the female protagonist "needs no man" are most likely guys themselves and can't afford the emotional or mental "strength/endurance" to see the female protagonist to have a straight relationship in their game because she "don't need no man" except the one controlling her and paid for a date with her, if you will, by purchasing her game.
I have always felt Bayonetta would have been a perfect way to introduce female protagonists going into straight relationships due to her pronounced sexuality that she wears so proudly... but even she somehow someway didn't dive into that too well. She would have been the perfect counter to Geralt in Witcher, and old school Kratos in od of War... who are both essentially speaking womanizer characters. Bayonetta would have been a perfect man-izer character.
All in all, it's a lot to fix in industries of representation. So yes, I feel everyone should get their due proper representation. Straight women, alongside with the LGBT community. Not just straight cis men.
Boy sure is odd that people only start bringing up respecting the developers intent whenever a marginalized group ask for more, better representation.
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Not my intention/bad phrasing on my part. I meant to describe the heated identity politics going around today. I'm certainly not out here trying to attack minorities sorry.
I think a mixture of sexualities in a game like FE would be best. Not just "everyone is bi", but most are bi (edit: or to be more clear, can be romanced by both sexes and perhaps their sexuality is decided to some effect by player choice), some are straight, and some are gay.
If everyones sexuality is dictated by player choice, then you get samey characters and relationships (both romantic and platonic). Everyone becomes a blank slate, not just the MC.
If everyones sexuality is dictated by player choice, then you get samey characters and relationships (both romantic and platonic). Everyone becomes a blank slate, not just the MC.
"God, offering inclusive options is simply exhausting. Can't all players simply be satisfied with stock hetronormative options?"
Entitled is such a bad word for this. Maybe "expectation" works better.
I'll go this far: Having a gay romance option should be expected from the type of modern game OP is describing, yes.
Having the /same/ amount of options though?
Why? I think this is taking the idea of equal representation to an untenable place. Why not also have a perfectly equal amount of black romance options? How about gay black romances? How about Asian lesbian romance options? How about trans options? As you can see this idea quickly spirals out of control. Especially when resources are limited and you're trying to tell a certain story, but now having to shoehorn a dozen different characters into it.
I realize this looks like a slippery slope argument but I can't understand why the OPs logic of equal representation should stop at gay people.
So yeah expecting representation is reasonable. Expecting perfectly equal representation is not. Entitled is also a bad word in this situation as that word is reserved for things like basic human rights, not representation in video games.
I'll go this far: Having a gay romance option should be expected from the type of modern game OP is describing, yes.
Having the /same/ amount of options though?
Why? I think this is taking the idea of equal representation to an untenable place. Why not also have a perfectly equal amount of black romance options? How about gay black romances? How about Asian lesbian romance options? How about trans options? As you can see this idea quickly spirals out of control. Especially when resources are limited and you're trying to tell a certain story, but now having to shoehorn a dozen different characters into it.
I realize this looks like a slippery slope argument but I can't understand why the OPs logic of equal representation should stop at gay people.
So yeah expecting representation is reasonable. Expecting perfectly equal representation is not. Entitled is also a bad word in this situation as that word is reserved for things like basic human rights, not representation in video games.
Nobody is entitled to any sort of media
That being said, it's ridiculous to not have a mixture of homosexual, heterosexual and bisexual options in self-insert games. I'm not homosexual in real life, but what if I want to create a bisexual warrior? Not having the options there is just strange.
That being said, it's ridiculous to not have a mixture of homosexual, heterosexual and bisexual options in self-insert games. I'm not homosexual in real life, but what if I want to create a bisexual warrior? Not having the options there is just strange.
No. Don't put words in my mouth. I mean that it is very challenging to accurately visually represent all these groups. Absolutely strive for more inclusivity, but it's all but assured there will be complaints.
User Banned (Permanent): Inflammatory rhetoric, severe prior infractions, account in junior phase.
Pretty much lol. Only a goon would post what they think if it goes against the Era majority.
I am gay, have self-respect, and I don't feel entitled to anything like this. Inclusivity is important, but I think it should be done respectfully instead of tone-deaf stereotypes or hollow pandering.
The portrayal of straight relationship in most games is cringeworthy enough, and many games are even worse when it comes to LGBT stuff (especially the recent Persona games - I do not trust those people to make a decent LGBT subplot). The only positive example off the top of my head was The Last Of Us, and that was with defined and well written characters.
There have been at least three threads on this game and gay options, so I might be missing something specific. I am interested in picking up the game later on based on people's overall impressions, but I have never played a FE game before.
I prefer a mix of characters with defined sexual orientations in a game. One of the most realistic moments in Mass Effect 3 to me was when I wanted to romance a character but couldn't because they where a orientation I wasn't. It felt realistic and awkward in the right way. Most bioware romances are terrible but that is a moment that stood out as good to me.
I much preferred that over the "everyone is fuckable by everyone" approach to something like Assassins Creed Odyssey or saints row 4.
I much preferred that over the "everyone is fuckable by everyone" approach to something like Assassins Creed Odyssey or saints row 4.
Nonbinary people don't look any fucking different from other people. We don't automatically have different bodies just because we're not cisgender. Hell, I'm nonbinary and nobody who doesn't know would ever guess because I look 100% like a cis woman. It would already do so much to just give us they/them pronouns and let us use those and voices with any character we want. And maybe have characters be able to wear whatever armor/outfit if it's doable, like have feminine ones be available for male characters & vice versa.