Are gay people *entitled* to the same amount of romance options as straight people in self-insert games?

[InadequateCrab7]

It's not exactly "enforcing our will" if we're asking for, you know, being acknowledged as existing.
But the "you're free to come up with your own stories" bullshit really has to fucking stop.

Being critical of a piece of media for whatever reason usually triggers this response, but it always comes out the second someone suggests there should be a minority represented, regardless of the fact that like 99.9% of all games have a straight white male protagonist.
But the worst part about it is "come up with your own stories" is fucking horseshit. The cards are heavily stacked against minorities in all fields of media. Women, PoC and queer people as creators are looked down upon in the film and game industries, and it's already incredibly difficult to find a job in these industries as a minority creator, let alone be in charge of a project where you make creative decisions.

Finally, there's a difference between a small indie game made by a handful of people that's telling a story and has, at best, a few thousand people buying it, and a triple A game that is made by a multi-million $ corporation/publisher and a creative team that has several dozen if not hundred people working on it, and is specifically created to generate profit rather than being a heartfelt story the devs wanted to tell.

Personally, I am patently against the agenda to silence minorities and have the majority of straight white men enforce their will onto our plea for representation and being allowed to have options.

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We're not going to agree on this.

You are arguing that you need media representation to acknowledge your existence.

I'm arguing that forcing every writer who dreams a world and the characters within it is entitled to their vision. And forcing them to cease that creative license and vision because you need to be acknowledged is "fucking horseshit".

 

[Red Arremer]

We're not going to agree on this.

You are arguing that you need media representation to acknowledge your existence.

I'm arguing that forcing every writer who dreams a world and the characters within it is entitled to their vision. And forcing them to cease that creative license and vision because you need to be acknowledged is "fucking horseshit".

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Then those questions are for you, as well:

Then what about the corporate chairs that enforce their desires of adding predatory monetization into the games of their dev studios? Isn't that a false entitlement issue?
Or how about the publishers that enforce their desires of getting more profit and thus pressuring their dev studios to make the protagonist of a game a straight white male?

Nobody ever complains about "artistic integrity" when a game is shoehorned to have a straight white male protag, but as soon as people suggest LGBT+ romance options, or having more non-white, non-straight and/or non-male MCs, it's all about the devs doing whatever they want to do, and us having to fall over our own feet to protect their ability to do so. How dare people other than straight white men ask for representation!

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[Ananasas]

If the developer doesn't have the knowledge of LGBT or money should he even try to implement romantic options or should he just scrap it?

 

[InadequateCrab7]

Then those questions are for you, as well:

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Cite me an example of a publisher pressuring a studio to make the protagonist a straight white male and I'll be marching alongside you, pitchfork raised as a devoutly wrong injustice on someone's creative vision.

That's my view and I stand by it, regardless of who is pushing the agenda.

 

[Red Arremer]

Cite me an example of a publisher pressuring a studio to make the protagonist a straight white male and I'll be marching alongside you, pitchfork raised as a devoutly wrong injustice on someone's creative vision.

That's my view and I stand by it, regardless of who is pushing the agenda.

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https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/new...-Dontnods-Life-is-Strange-Having-Female-Leads

Why publishers refuse games such as Remember Me because of their female protagonists

The developer of upcoming sci-fi adventure Remember Me has revealed that a number of publishers passed on the game due …

www.eurogamer.net

 

[InadequateCrab7]

https://v1.escapistmagazine.com/new...-Dontnods-Life-is-Strange-Having-Female-Leads

Why publishers refuse games such as Remember Me because of their female protagonists

The developer of upcoming sci-fi adventure Remember Me has revealed that a number of publishers passed on the game due …

www.eurogamer.net

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Got the change.org link handy?

 

[Quinho]

Yes.

Both should be 0.

 

[SpokkX]

You're assuming straight people wouldn't want to experiment with gay relationships in games.

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Yes I am - at least a large majority

 

[BassForever]

Entitled probably isn't the right word for it, but they should be given the option if the player is allowed to choose their romantic partner. Using Fire Emblem 3 Houses as an example, if there were 10 bisexual characters, 5 men and 5 women, people would probably be pretty good. However since AFAIK there is 1 bisexual guy and 5 bisexual gals it really does feel like people who may have wanted a gay relationship got screwed.

 

[shan780]

I've seen people say things like "there are far fewer gay people in real life, so it's only realistic that they have less romance options"

realistically, not every member of the opposite sex is going to be into you in real life either, but you don't see anyone saying there should be fewer straight romance options

 

[Kinthey]

The everyone is bi- or everyone wants the PC approach all work if you are on a budget, but I think it is a pretty crappy one.

Characters then feel less like the exist as their own persons and more a vessel for the PCs whims.

Characters of all different stripes is much better. Yes even if it means fewer options across the board.

That said, I prefer these games more as stories than actual self-insert, so my opinion is skewed.

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Yeah it completely separates sexuality from the character which I don't think creates something very meaningful.

 

[Almagest]

In the context that the OP described it should be normal to have the same number of options, yes.

 

[GuEiMiRrIRoW]

I would say that no one is entlited to anything. Games are what the director or company wants it to be.

If I`m homosexual and I want all my characters to be gay, I don`t want a heterosexual criticizing my choices as creator.

Games are not supposed to imitate life. I don`t want people saying that 15% of the population is gay and therefore 15% of the characters must be gay.

Let the creators do what they want. If they are dissapointing the LGBT market, eventually a developer will notice that and create content to that niche of the market. LET DEVELOPERS BE FREE PEOPLE!

 

[burger rain]

I think it's great if they include same-sex romance options.

Are you being DENIED something that you were entitled to if there are more straight options than gay options? No. Come on.

 

[Red Liquorice]

The old "I'm ok with you being gay but stop rubbing it in peoples faces" is what I'm hearing a lot of here.

 

[Man Called Aerodynamics]

I don't love the "make all characters player-sexual" approach for the reasons already enumerated in several posts. However, devs should strive to give all players a range of great romance options.

 

[Thera]

Definitely, but how do you make this work? By having 50% straight, 50% gay?

 

[ngower]

If it's a game like uncharted where the relationship is static and designed purposefully for story reasons, let the directors do as they please.

If it's a game where you get to choose your romantic partner, absolutely.

 

[Dphex]

Games are for the player, every datable NPC should be bi so that all players can date them.

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makes no sense at all, seems not very grounded to have every NPC as a bi character...it would be completely nonsense tbh

other than that, not every game needs all the options, to use this as a general criticism against some games is a little bit disingenous. there are options in some games and if people are not happy with them it is their problem.

maybe some people should play Second Life if they want that and just be cool with the fact that there are games that let you express yourself as bi, gay or something else. other games don´t do that and it is also fine.

 

[goodretina]

I typically avoid romance options in games because they are handled so poorly. Are there exclusive, game-changing benefits to romance over just maxing out friendship in this game? I have seen a couple threads about this particular game, so I don't know if it is something about the game itself or the fan base. Were there gay options in the past?

I don't think I have ever felt entitled to anything in a game except that it doesn't brick my system. I may have expectations, but being entitled is taking it to another level.

 

[Joni]

Games with extensive story options, where each character as a specific expected story. No. Like in Final Fantasy, character X has to end up with Y. It wouldn't make sense. In games like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Fire Emblem, yes, although make it a bit more dynamic. Have gay characters, have straight characters and you know, let the player try to seduce the person they want, without the game explicitly telling if that is possible or not.

 

[Kinthey]

The lack of options is bad in the case of Geralt too. The notion that Geralt's romance options arent just fantasies for straight male players is laughable.

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Geralt is a set character though. He's more than just a player insert

 

[Kelanflyter]

We should have a whole gen of games with only gay romances so straight people can understand what it means to have almost no romances of their sexual preference


....joking but you know.

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You know i m not gay and i m a man, but when i can i always play a girl and always romance a girl.

 

[Patsy]

I don't know if entitled is the word I'd use personally? Of course no one should be forced to add gay romances for us, but we sure as fuck deserve some god damn representation. I'm definitely side-eyeing devs who go out of their way to not include gay relationships or do a piss poor job at it. We should always ask for & expect more representation, especially representation that isn't either fetishizing or nothing but tired and gross tropes.

I also think that "just make everyone bi/pan" just invites lazy writing & implementation. Playersexual characters are lazy in that you could exchange the female protagonists with a male one and more often than not not a single conversation would change. It's boring and not nearly the representation we deserve and should ask for. I thought Dragon Age: Inquisition did a nice job at having some straight & bi characters and a lesbian and gay man. Give every character a set in stone sexuality and don't just have them be either straight or playersexual.

 

[Vector]

As a gay man it does affect my enjoyment of a game when I cant be in a same sex relationship in it. Despite its many flaws, I gotta give credit to the latest Mass Effect for having the option.

 

[Brotherhood93]

I don't think you should be entitled to that although I certainly understand the arguments for it. There could be more options or fewer for gay romances and I think it's fine as long as there is decent variety and not just the 'gay choice'. I definitely think you should be entitled to ample non-straight romance options though. It is probably ideal that they are equally split too but I don't see why it should absolutely always be a 50/50 split, providing it isn't egregious. Same goes for straight male/female relationship options. I admit the fact that options are currently almost always weighted towards straight male players makes it unfair though, it shouldn't be like that either.

As for the argument of making all romance options open to any gender, that's the point that they stop feeling like interesting unique characters to me and becomes too gamey so I would be against it. For example, I wanted to romance Sera in Dragon Age: Inquisition and couldn't because she's gay, that is perfectly fine for me although, again, I understand why this is easier to say when there are always plenty of straight options. It's okay if not every character wants to bang you.

 

[Untzillatx]

Even though it would not be realistic (but many things in games aren't), I think games where relationships play a relevant part of the gaming experience should just make all characters available for dating regardless of gender/sex. It works in The Sims.

 

[Kinggroin]

A blank slate character is only one IF options are equal regardless of who's playing. So yes, OP.

 

[Chrome Hyena]

I think there should be as many options for gay as straight. Now it doesnt mean everyone should be available as gay or straight. BUT if there are 10 straight options, make sure there are 10 gay options.

I feel Dragon Age and Mass Effect come the closest to giving equality in the romance dept.

 

[Wulfram]

I think its important that there are sufficient gay options. When there are only a few romances, then probably means that equality is what is called for, but if you have a lot of romances then I don't think its a problem if things aren't totally equal.

Dragon Age Inquisition offers 2 more romances for straight female characters than for other gender/orientation combinations, and I think that was fine, because all orientations got at least 2 romantic options, and those romances were reasonably "fully featured".

 

[PBalfredo]

Yes, especially in games like Fire Emblem that already deal in making the whole cast player-sexual. Every character is readily available to be romanced at the player's choosing. No one is not interested in the player. No one is already in a pre-existing relationship. No one isn't ready to date. No one will reject the player.

Except for same sex relationships. Then all of a sudden limited to a handful of characters that barely compares to the number of fuckable dragons in Awakening.

 

[ergoakari]

One of the hurdles that I think developers need to get over is that if they want to support gay relationships they need to write that specifically into the characters background as if that character can't just be the same person. It's exhausting. There's no excuse.

 

[Deleted member 18379]

Nobody is entitled to anything in a piece of media created by other people. Personally I would prefer romance options be left out of my video games entirely. It's a bit weird all around for me when it comes to people wanting to get down with a video game character, but hey, I'm not entitled to having other people make something exactly for me. Criticism and asking for more options is fine, but by no means do they need to listen; just like you don't have to support their game.

 

[Patsy]

Ellie is great but personally I think it's a bit tiresome that she's a bit of a tomboy, that's pretty much the Hollywood stereotype for lesbian which to me is a bit lazy. Bill is much better since he goes against the stereotype by being big, burly, manly, and gay. I just wish we would see some bigger characters show this side as well. But all in all ND is definitely one of few devs that knows how the strings should be pulled.

Click to shrink...

Butch lesbians exist, you know? We haven't seen much of her yet, but I would definitely say she's a butch and not a tomboy. Tomboys still have a slight feminine style & are usually women (not necessarily solely but also) attracted to men whereas butch lesbians are very masculine and well, lesbians. Also as a lesbian, I'm very tired of the Hollywood stereotype that is lesbians being hyperfeminine femmes. We have a severe lack of super masculine butches in media so I definitely welcome what they're doing with Ellie.

 

[Issen]

"Entitled"? Probably not, nobody is owed anything in a commercial product other than the fact that it should deliver whatever it advertises.

Now, whether the games should offer it regardless is another question altogether. I think they absolutely should. It doesn't hurt anyone and it makes the people affected by it much happier. And I think everyone, even those not affected, should let companies know that, as "vote with your wallet"/boycotting is inherently less powerful when done by a minority, as it represents smaller monetary impact.

 

[Cyberclops]

If there was a cute girl in Fire Emblem who was only available in lesbian relationships you know that a bunch of straight people would be pissed off. The biggest problem with it is that it's painfully obvious that the relationships in the game are there purely to serve the major sections of the fanbase (while leaving the gay community feeling like second-class citizens).

 

[ninjabreadman]

maybe some people should play Second Life if they want that and just be cool with the fact that there are games that let you express yourself as bi, gay or something else. other games don´t do that and it is also fine.

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nope, it's not okay to say "well there are games for you" - if folks are being charged the same price, they have the right to the same amount of content. Look at Harvest Moon and how if you picked a girl (as I did) you get half the game, and in FE if you are gay, you have hardly any options for romance.

The only exception is where you are playing as a predefined character (e.g. Kratos), but if it lets you project yourself into a videogame persona then the game has to make every effort to ensure that regardless of which gender, sex, skin colour or orientation you give that character, you have just as many gameplay options available to you as the next player. Bi-sexuality exists, it's not a massive ask that they make more characters bi, it's not like straight players are not being forced into gay relationships due to the inclusion of bisexual characters.

Especially in Japanese titles where often the only gay representation are pervert characters or comic relief, you can also feel the sense of "oh, do we have to!' when it came to adding gay romance into FE

 

[Aleh]

I would say that no one is entlited to anything. Games are what the director or company wants it to be.

If I`m homosexual and I want all my characters to be gay, I don`t want a heterosexual criticizing my choices as creator.

Games are not supposed to imitate life. I don`t want people saying that 15% of the population is gay and therefore 15% of the characters must be gay.

Let the creators do what they want. If they are dissapointing the LGBT market, eventually a developer will notice that and create content to that niche of the market. LET DEVELOPERS BE FREE PEOPLE!

Click to shrink...

That seems like a good way to have zero representation. We're not talking about forcing developers to change their vision, we just want to exist. You're not fooling anyone with your false equivalence of being able to make a game with only gay relationships.

 

[Razmos]

Just like in real life, there are less gay people than straight people. You're asking to be able to pursue romance options with people who are not interested in a homosexual relationship.

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This post is absolute trash

 

[Aleh]

This post is absolute trash

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Just like real life, beautiful girls don't want to have a relationship with you. This game is being unrealistic!

 

[Razmos]

Also in this thread people caring more for the feelings of developers than minorities. Cute.

 

[Brawly Likes to Brawl]

Yes. I've had to sit and watch hetero-relationships have all the fun throughout media, what's wrong with me wishing that things were equal?

 

[skipgo]

Also in this thread people caring more for the feelings of developers than minorities. Cute.

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They only care about their own feelings, this whole "devs intent" argument is just a cop out.

 

[Odeko]

Also in this thread people caring more for the feelings of developers than minorities. Cute.

Click to shrink...

Sometimes things in life have more nuance and depth than a pure "us vs. them" righteous crusade. There can be many ways to look at a complex issue.

 

[Razmos]

They only care about their own feelings, this whole "devs intent" argument is just a cop out.

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Yep either that or they simply dont care and just want things to stay as they are. Enabling assholes.

 

[Master Alucard]

would be nice but the answer is no, there's no entitlement, it's not a right

 

[orava]

Does it feel more satisfying and realistic to you if you have same amount of romance options as people who play as straight people or would it be more interesting if it's more like real life?

 

[Deleted member 18857]

No, absolutely not entitled.
However, devs are not entitled to my money either. If you want my gay dollars, you'll have to make a game that convince me your game is going to make me feel welcome. It's not a number's game if all your options are crap, or you destroy what you've built later (looking at you Assassin's Creed).

As for people wanting gay relationships to be meaningful and include elements of real-life gay experience... It depends. It's not only a "if sci-fi, OK, if real world, not OK" thing.
For example, everyone was bi in the Justice Gakuen dating sims on PS1, and it felt really nice and welcoming. There was no particular weight to it, all dating situations were very light and gender-neutral, but it also felt alien and *nice* that no one was questioning why you'd spend so much time alone with this or that character. It's definitely one of the main reasons I have found memories of this series, even if Capcom never really capitalized on it. It was a very light-hearted game, and being allowed to just have fun in a high-school setting while dating a same-sex character was... nice, you know. It was kind of revelatory. "Oh, that's what straight people get when they play other high-school dating sims, or watch high-school dramas! Not feeling threatened! Oh, I get it now."

 

[PBalfredo]

If there was a cute girl in Fire Emblem who was only available in lesbian relationships you know that a bunch of straight people would be pissed off. The biggest problem with it is that it's painfully obvious that the relationships in the game are there purely to serve the major sections of the fanbase (while leaving the gay community feeling like second-class citizens).

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Imagine how many "SJWs ruined Fire Emblem!!!!" YouTube videos would arise from Edelgarde being exclusively lesbian.

 

[RadicalDreamer]

I think that we all deserve the opportunity to love and be loved, with love as we'd like to have it.

Should games reflect the reality that this isn't how it always works, or should the portrayal be more romantic and equitable in our digital lives?

We could probably argue that it depends on the game and things like that, but...I think we can all agree that we want to belong and feel with others, be they real or on a screen. As someone who always isn't able to find that in the physical dimension, I've long taken solace and comfort in games that allow me to be who I want to be, and allow me to be with who I want to be with. It's one of the reasons I love playing video games...