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laziboi

Alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2019
1,918
Your Anus
You hear it every generation. "Games are more expensive to make now!", "Games are taking longer to make!", "We can't afford as many games as we used to!", "Game Development is unsustainable!". This has been a problem in the industry for a while. It's true that production costs for high-end, AAA experiences are getting larger and larger, and thus growing fewer in numbers. But I think the whole "Games cost too much to make" argument is ignoring the bigger picture here.

Now it's true that game development isn't a walk in the park generally speaking. That's true no matter the era. However, what the argument of increased production costs ignores is that not every game has to be this massive AAA, open world/battle royale experience. Development costs for any given game depends entirely on the ambition level of the project, and how much money and staff you'll need to achieve that in a reasonable time frame. You only need to look at the indie scene to see that you don't need cutting edge graphics or massive open worlds to make a good game.

Another problem with this argument is that consoles are getting more powerful yes, but they're also getting much easier to develop for as well. This lowers the barrier of entry for many devs, which means less time needed to get an engine up and running. That, combined with the excellent middleware tools available today, means that what once needed a budget of $20 million and a team of 100 in the PS2 or 360 days, can now be done by studios with half that number or less, and still look better as well. And I'm not saying that indie games haven't gotten more expensive to make in recent years, what I'm saying is that the increase in costs for indie games are still nowhere near the astronomical levels of AAA game development.

It's easy to say that AAA games are too expensive to make, and that is true. But companies adapt and accommodate accordingly, they're not going to sit there with no games, they'll diversify what they invest in, and maintain a steady release flow. As much as I hate EA, I'll give them credit where credit is do, they have one of the better setups to accommodate for increased development costs as a third party publisher. You have their main EA and EA Sports labels for AAA productions, and you have an EA Originals label for smaller, independently developed games and AA projects. If anything, more major third parties should follow the setup of companies like EA or Take Two. Platform holders also know this, which is why they've been making it as easy as possible for developers to make high quality games, even with smaller resources for years.
 

EggmaniMN

Banned
May 17, 2020
3,465
They aren't overhyped at all because they should probably be higher as devs don't get paid enough.
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
Not really

let's list all the overhead

Developer salaries
Employee benefits
Office space
utilities
IT salaries
Office management salaries (cleaners, maintenance)
IT acquisition and maintenance costs
Development Software costs
Licensing costs
Insurance
Taxes
marketing
In-house QA
snacks

Now multiply all that by a dev cycle and no, not overblown
 

OrigamiPirate

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
581
San Francisco
I believe "overstated" might have been the word you were looking for. Beyond that though, no? Consider how many people it takes to make a game (dozens to hundreds, considering scale), and what it takes to pay someone for a year of their work. In payroll costs alone you're already looking at a LOT of money, and it only scales up from there as you consider additional costs. Making games (or anything, really) is expensive af.
 

s y

Member
Nov 8, 2017
10,430
After reading the OP, you probably picked a poor title for the thread lol
 

gabegabe

Member
Jul 5, 2018
2,736
Brazil
not every game has to be this massive AAA, open world/battle royale experience

Games aren't made "just for fun", they're products that the company sells to make profit, and if doesn't fit what the general population is consuming, than it won't make the most profit it can make. And AAA open world/battle royale games are what people seems to be playing the most this generation.
 

DeoGame

Member
Dec 11, 2018
5,077
They arguably are compared to film budgets ($50 million for 30 hours of content in HZD vs $300 million for 3 hours of Avengers Endgame or even $100 million for 5 of The Mandalorian) but part of the reason they are so low is due to the lack of unions and an overreliance on Crunch. I'd have far less issues justifying another price hike if I knew it was due to an increase in budget to help minimize crunch and unionize, not just so Bobby Kotick can line his pocket with more money and fire hundreds of employees to create the illusion of growth.
 

Dreamwriter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,461
While certain aspects of modern consoles are easier to develop for, 3D modeling is not (well, depending on how far back you go - I'm thinking around the last decade). Art is the #1 time sink these days, and if you don't spend enough time on it, people really complain, especially for humans and their faces. Even low budget games get shat on if they skimp on the quality of 3D models, which means more time and more artists, which is where all the budget is coming from. The fact that big companies spent the last few years concentrating on AAA titles has given gamers a set of expectations of quality.

As for "they don't need to make just AAA games", that's just the state of the industry these days, the big developers have decided to make big bets for big payouts. And those need big budgets, but average AAA game prices haven't gone up since like the Xbox 360 / PS3 to pay for them, which is actually one of the reasons they only go for AAA games, they can't make much money on a AA game, especially since the price will be lower.
 
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laziboi

laziboi

Alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2019
1,918
Your Anus
Games aren't made "just for fun", they're products that the company sells to make profit, and if doesn't fit what the general population is consuming, than it won't make the most profit it can make. And AAA open world/battle royale games are what people seems to be playing the most this generation.
That may be true for AAA companies. But Indie developers and AA studios don't have to keep worrying about what competing with the big boys. Their focus is just making games that sell well enough.
 

Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,236
100+ developers was not the norm in the PS2 games, in fact I don't think there were many of that size. Most PS2 games were built by teams of under 50 people.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,776
Detroit, MI
What irks me is that costs... they hardly ever are disclosed.

Because the video game industry gets by with its malpractice and abuse by obfuscating how the sausage is made as much as possible.

Much easier to demand an increase in retail price and justify aggressive monetization in your games or treat your employees like humans when you can have industry figureheads yell from their million dollar balconies that games cost too much too make.
 

liquidtmd

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,129
The teams required to make the AAA projects are getting bigger and the years of work longer...actual game development cost I don't doubt is blooming and many will say from the actual RRP of games hasn't really risen in 25 years...

My problem with the analogy is the size of the market. I remember paying ÂŁ44.99 for Megadrive cartridges in 1993, and the realistic retail price in shops of new games in 2020 I pick up on PS4 are about the same at ÂŁ45

That's not really fair to say they should increase though when the Mega Drive sold about 30million units world wide, versus an industry heavily weighted to cross plat titles now with the PS4 over 100mill install base, XB1 at 50mill and fuck knows how many PCs - not to mention the sheer amount of DLC and MTX potential

You raise the prices much more, you're gonna have an even more unstable top heavy industry where more Devs will be vulnerable to go under
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,324
Companies aren't spending tons of money on AAA game development because they're ambitious. They're spending it because the vast majority of games lose money or about break even and they're trying to maximize their chance of having one of those games that are a big hit. Since everybody else is spending huge amounts of money, if you want to compete, you do the same. If your game doesn't look as good as the other games, people are going to assume it's not as good even if the gameplay/story are great. And if you don't spend a lot of money on marketing, chances are people aren't going to pay attention to your game.

Lots of people say "Just make cheaper AA games" and that's a valid strategy, but don't discount the difficulty of getting people to pay attention to your mid-budget game when you're competing for mindshare against games with much bigger budgets. The lower price tag doesn't even help that much when you're competing against big budget games that are now $20 a year after launch and $10 the year after that. The big advantage is that since your budget is lower, you don't have to sell as much to be successful.

And the vast majority of indie games bomb so that's not a great model either. I've been lucky in that I had financial support from family when my business was struggling and I've been doing this for long enough that when I release a game, I can count on at least our diehard fans noticing (and hopefully more than that). Most indies don't have that.
 
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laziboi

laziboi

Alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2019
1,918
Your Anus
As for "they don't need to make just AAA games", that's just the state of the industry these days, the big developers have decided to make big bets for big payouts. And those need big budgets, but average AAA game prices haven't gone up since like the Xbox 360 / PS3 to pay for them, which is actually one of the reasons they only go for AAA games, they can't make much money on a AA game, especially since the price will be lower.

But you see companies like EA and Take Two starting up indie publishing labels for smaller projects. And that's in addition to the indie focused publishers out there like Devolver Digital and Annapurna. There is room for both.
 

Haze

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,776
Detroit, MI
Companies aren't spending tons of money on AAA game development because they're ambitious. They're spending it because the vast majority of games lose money or about break even and they're trying to maximize their chance of having one of those games that are a big hit. Since everybody else is spending huge amounts of money, if you want to compete, you do the same. If your game doesn't look as good as the other games, people are going to assume it's not as good even if the gameplay/story are great. And if you don't spend a lot of money on marketing, chances are people aren't going to pay attention to your game.

Lots of people say "Just make cheaper AA games" and that's a valid strategy, but don't discount the difficulty of getting people to pay attention to your mid-budget game when you're competing for mindshare against games with much bigger budgets. The lower price tag doesn't even help that much when you're competing against big budget games that are now $20 a year after launch and $10 the year after that.

And the vast majority of indie games bomb so that's not a great model either. I've been lucky in that I had financial support from family when my business was struggling and I've been doing this for long enough that when I release a game, I can count on at least our diehard fans noticing (and hopefully more than that). Most indies don't have that.

Honestly this industry isn't healthy and the need for perpetual growth has resulted in bloated budgets and games that sell dozens of millions of copies being considered revenue disappointments or outright failures by shareholders.

It's not sustainable and the bubble will burst at some point.
 
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Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,236
But you see companies like EA and Take Two starting up indie publishing labels for smaller projects. And that's in addition to the indie focused publishers out there like Devolver Digital and Annapurna. There is room for both.

The problem is there's almost no room for things in the middle. Small sized companies with talented individuals who work on games with a few dozen people. There are only a few left, like Vanillaware and Gust. Indie games don't tend to fill the void left for me because it's hard for indie developers to make games of that size.
 
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laziboi

laziboi

Alt-account
Banned
Oct 25, 2019
1,918
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The problem is there's almost no room for things in the middle. Small sized companies with talented individuals who work on games with a few dozen people. There are only a few left, like Vanillaware and Gust.
You basically described half of the indie development scene. Indie devs aren't just 6 man garage teams, they can also be studios of 20-30 people as well.
 

Dolce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,236
You basically described half of the indie development scene. Indie devs aren't just 6 man garage teams, they can also be studios of 20-30 people as well.

I think we're going into weirdness when it comes to describing indies. To me an actual company isn't indie. But I can understand why people consider them such.
 
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laziboi

laziboi

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Oct 25, 2019
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I think we're going into weirdness when it comes to describing indies. To me an actual company isn't indie. But I can understand why people consider them such.
Indie in my eyes, is a small studio of less than 80 people that are outside of the major AAA studios, who usually have up to 500 people and are often (not always) owned by a publisher.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,033
Milwaukee, WI
Actually yeah, I do think it comes down to mismanagement.

I am not at all a Nintendo fanboy (Toad Treasure Tracker fucking sucks) but they take small teams and give them plenty of time to make a game within budget that will continue to sell full price for years to come and pull in digital sales later on.

It's that greater view that allows them to remain artistic and profitable. I'm sure others can call out some good devs but how many of them sustain that attitude over several generations.

Here in the United States, we have a significantly bizarre view of money. I mean, some people are out there bragging about budgets for Christ's sake! It's a very weird and unhealthy direction for developers and publishers to target.

Like, it never ever works. You set milestones within reason but inevitably things will stall. In in the USA culture that means it's time to crunch. And considering most studios DO NOT pay overtime, it's just a death march unless you're seriously going to buy into the tech bro culture.


Uhh...
I have some options.
But yes, budgets are fucked because development and publishing is fucked because the culture is fucked. We need more co-op devs.
 

fr0st

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,485
There's a reason why games are trying to push lootboxes/mtx as much as possible
 

Borman

Digital Games Curator at The Strong Museum
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
843
People have no idea what games cost now or in the past. Ive been fortunate to be able to dig into a lot of different budgets, and it is always surprising!
 

Sems4arsenal

Member
Apr 7, 2019
3,627
My question is, don't almost all first party games make their money back, and then some?

I understand third party games getting more expensive, but almost all Sony games for example are setting records.

I also would understand if a PS5 exclusive would be more expensive due to the low user base.
 

driveninhifi

Member
Jun 7, 2018
119
Not overhyped at all. It's incredibly expensive.
Think about just the engineering: say you need to pay 100k for good engineers (and that's a severe underpay compared to a place like Facebook or google). Then add benefits on top of that. So your team of engineers could easily cost 200k each, per year. And you probably need 30.

But my personal experience is that
the tools suck, even the big engines are not what I'd call masterpieces of software. and none are particularly easy to pick up and use.
iteration times are atrocious (and imo this tanks productivity across all disciplines)
the industry as a whole is awful at planning and scoping

Personally, I think the industry as a whole is not very disciplined. This leads into a much larger conversation of how much structure and accountability you want vs freedom and creativity. But most places lean to the "lets do the cool fun stuff all the time" side. Which works up until a certain point, and then everything catches on fire. So everyone has to crunch to put the fires out. Which leads to looking for the quickest temporary solution. Which ends up catching on fire later, etc, etc.
 

Nessus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,907
You hear it every generation. "Games are more expensive to make now!", "Games are taking longer to make!", "We can't afford as many games as we used to!", "Game Development is unsustainable!". This has been a problem in the industry for a while. It's true that production costs for high-end, AAA experiences are getting larger and larger, and thus growing fewer in numbers. But I think the whole "Games cost too much to make" argument is ignoring the bigger picture here.

Now it's true that game development isn't a walk in the park generally speaking. That's true no matter the era. However, what the argument of increased production costs ignores is that not every game has to be this massive AAA, open world/battle royale experience. Development costs for any given game depends entirely on the ambition level of the project, and how much money and staff you'll need to achieve that in a reasonable time frame. You only need to look at the indie scene to see that you don't need cutting edge graphics or massive open worlds to make a good game.

Another problem with this argument is that consoles are getting more powerful yes, but they're also getting much easier to develop for as well. This lowers the barrier of entry for many devs, which means less time needed to get an engine up and running. That, combined with the excellent middleware tools available today, means that what once needed a budget of $20 million and a team of 100 in the PS2 or 360 days, can now be done by studios with half that number or less, and still look better as well. And I'm not saying that indie games haven't gotten more expensive to make in recent years, what I'm saying is that the increase in costs for indie games are still nowhere near the astronomical levels of AAA game development.

It's easy to say that AAA games are too expensive to make, and that is true. But companies adapt and accommodate accordingly, they're not going to sit there with no games, they'll diversify what they invest in, and maintain a steady release flow. As much as I hate EA, I'll give them credit where credit is do, they have one of the better setups to accommodate for increased development costs as a third party publisher. You have their main EA and EA Sports labels for AAA productions, and you have an EA Originals label for smaller, independently developed games and AA projects. If anything, more major third parties should follow the setup of companies like EA or Take Two. Platform holders also know this, which is why they've been making it as easy as possible for developers to make high quality games, even with smaller resources for years.
I think the problem is that AA games have all but disappeared, those medium-sized studios have all been squeezed out, either acquired by larger companies or gone out of business. Nowadays the market is mostly either AAA or indie/small budget.

People judge generations based on AAA games because those are the ones that really push the hardware and show what the medium is capable of. And by that metric, yeah, development has gotten way more expensive and takes way longer than it used to. A lot of AAA developers that used to put out 4 games a generation are down to 1 or 2 now, while the teams have doubled in size.

I agree indie games shouldn't be overlooked, and they represent some of the most creative stuff going on nowadays, but they aren't what most people are talking about when they're discussing development costs of modern games.
 
Oct 29, 2017
698
You can see the thirst for AAA titles are not sustainable, just reading through some of the reaction to the PS5 event people were bitching about the small game/indie section being too longer. Its like all they wanted to see was AAA titles, not understanding that the small/indie titles help fill the gap.

I do wish we could go back to the PS2 days were game titles were being pumped out at a such a high rate. Speaking on development time is there any data that shows mean development time per console generation?
 
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laziboi

laziboi

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Banned
Oct 25, 2019
1,918
Your Anus
I think the problem is that AA games have all but disappeared, those medium-sized studios have all been squeezed out, either acquired by larger companies or gone out of business. Nowadays the market is mostly either AAA or indie/small budget.
AA games are making a comeback though. They went away in the previous gen because there was no infrastructure to facilitate lower budget, but still ambitious games on HD systems at the time. Today, that infrastructure exists, so AA games are slowly returning.
 

Nessus

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,907
AA games are making a comeback though. They went away in the previous gen because there was no infrastructure to facilitate lower budget, but still ambitious games on HD systems at the time. Today, that infrastructure exists, so AA games are slowly returning.
Hrm. The only one I was really aware of in the last couple years was Hellblade. I remember they specifically talked about how they made it on a smaller budget.

What would you say are other recent examples?

But yeah, if that's the case, then I'm glad to see that happening. I miss the PS1/PS2 generations where there were so many more mid-sized games being made.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,324
My question is, don't almost all first party games make their money back, and then some?

I understand third party games getting more expensive, but almost all Sony games for example are setting records.

I also would understand if a PS5 exclusive would be more expensive due to the low user base.

Long-running, popular series tend to have a much higher rate of success than new IPs.

If you look at Nintendo last gen, Splatoon was a huge hit, but they had far more new attempts like Wonderful 101, TMS#FE, and Devil's Third that didn't break out.

Also, companies like Nintendo and Sony can take more chances precisely because they have a lot of reliable series that they can fall back on. Something like Mario Kart or a new Uncharted game can fund a lot of experiments.
 
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laziboi

laziboi

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Oct 25, 2019
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Hrm. The only one I was really aware of in the last couple years was Hellblade. I remember they specifically talked about how they made it on a smaller budget.
The Outer Worlds, and Ori as well. And Many indie studios are reaching that level of production value and scale. There's several Japanese games like Ninjala, Daemon X Machina, Octopath, Trials of Mana, and such that are on that level too.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,033
Milwaukee, WI
My question is, don't almost all first party games make their money back, and then some?

I understand third party games getting more expensive, but almost all Sony games for example are setting records.

I also would understand if a PS5 exclusive would be more expensive due to the low user base.

Ehhhhhh yes and no. The general idea is that you hyper focus your content so that it appeals to a narrow interest with deep audience penetration...tee hee.

So let's say HBO has something like Deadwood or The Wire or something else that isn't pulling in Sopranos numbers. They did cancel those shows eventually BUT they remained on the air for as long as they did because they attracted a demographic that otherwise wouldn't subscribe to HBO.

Make sense? We all have buddies who buy consoles for NBA or Madden and not much else. Sony had been going for a group equally mainstream but underserved. It's an older audience and the games reflect that. Nintendo does the same thing in a different direction.

I think Microsoft could tie up online play next gen if they nail what I think Game Pass is going to become in the next 2-3 years.

Can an entire franchise really survive just because it brings in an outside audience? Ask me in 20 years when they're still making Just Dance.
 
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laziboi

laziboi

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Oct 25, 2019
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Lots of people say "Just make cheaper AA games" and that's a valid strategy, but don't discount the difficulty of getting people to pay attention to your mid-budget game when you're competing for mindshare against games with much bigger budgets. The lower price tag doesn't even help that much when you're competing against big budget games that are now $20 a year after launch and $10 the year after that. The big advantage is that since your budget is lower, you don't have to sell as much to be successful.
Which is why that argument falls apart, IMO. While you are competing for overall attention, trying to sell as much as the AAA big boys isn't necessary for smaller projects. Lower budgets means less copies you need to sell to break even.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
Actually yeah, I do think it comes down to mismanagement.

I am not at all a Nintendo fanboy (Toad Treasure Tracker fucking sucks) but they take small teams and give them plenty of time to make a game within budget that will continue to sell full price for years to come and pull in digital sales later on.
Nintendo's team sizes, development time, and development costs have been going up too. On top of creating more iterative sequels because that's a more financially viable move than say, trying to create the next original Zelda instead of BOTW 2.
 
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laziboi

laziboi

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Oct 25, 2019
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Nintendo's team sizes, development time, and development costs have been going up too. On top of creating more iterative sequels because that's a more financially viable move than say, trying to create the next original Zelda instead of BOTW 2.
Nintendo's are still generally lower than most AAA developers though. Also, BotW 2 was going to happen regardless. Zelda games usually get at least one direct sequel.
 

werezompire

Zeboyd Games
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
11,324
Which is why that argument falls apart, IMO. While you are competing for overall attention, trying to sell as much as the AAA big boys isn't necessary for smaller projects. Lower budgets means less copies you need to sell to break even.

The problem is exposure. Once you get past the biggest sellers, revenue drops exponentially. If you spend 25% of an AAA budget and make a game that's almost as good as an AAA game, you're more likely to get 5% of a successful AAA's revenue than 25% of it. That's why the AA market has largely disappeared - your best chance of success is either do the arms race in AAA or keep costs extremely low (indie and medium-big indie).

Nintendo's are still generally lower than most AAA developers though. Also, BotW 2 was going to happen regardless. Zelda games usually get at least one direct sequel.

When you take into account Nintendo's marketing budgets, Nintendo's budgets are probably pretty standard for AAA game development. Nintendo spends crazy amounts of money on marketing.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,304
Nintendo's are still generally lower than most AAA developers though. Also, BotW 2 was going to happen regardless. Zelda games usually get at least one direct sequel.
No they don't? Outside of the handheld titles which are a lot cheaper to develop the vast majority of Zelda games have no iterative sequels. Even with lower dev costs nintendo as a publisher still spends millions upon millions to develop the titles.
 

Sinatar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,684
For a first world country you can roughly calculate it as 10k per person per month. That's salary, benefits and expenses (building rent, utilities, coffee etc).

Seems pretty normal for a triple A game to have 200 or more people on a team. So that's 2 million a month, get a 2 year dev time and that's 48 million, which sounds about right for the kind of numbers reported. Of course you then add marketing on top of that and it balloons even more.
 

GameDev

Member
Aug 29, 2018
556
Another problem with this argument is that consoles are getting more powerful yes, but they're also getting much easier to develop for as well. This lowers the barrier of entry for many devs, which means less time needed to get an engine up and running. That, combined with the excellent middleware tools available today, means that what once needed a budget of $20 million and a team of 100 in the PS2 or 360 days, can now be done by studios with half that number or less, and still look better as well. And I'm not saying that indie games haven't gotten more expensive to make in recent years, what I'm saying is that the increase in costs for indie games are still nowhere near the astronomical levels of AAA game development.

Just because a car is much faster than a bicycle, does not mean you get that benefit for free. A car requires gas, oil changes, and other things that a bicycle does not.

Using engines isn't free in more ways than one. It costs money to use them plus they may charge royalties. Secondly, the more features an engine has, the more potential for bugs. In reality, using engines trades one set of problems for new ones. Just because the trade results in a net benefit doesn't mean the costs aren't significant.
 
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laziboi

laziboi

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Oct 25, 2019
1,918
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The problem is exposure. Once you get past the biggest sellers, revenue drops exponentially. If you spend 25% of an AAA budget and make a game that's almost as good as an AAA game, you're more likely to get 5% of a successful AAA's revenue than 25% of it. That's why the AA market has largely disappeared - your best chance of success is either do the arms race in AAA or keep costs extremely low (indie and medium-big indie).
But shouldn't the goal just be making money on the game at all? Why should a AA title be expected to make as much money as a AAA one? That's just a very dumb strategy.

No they don't? Outside of the handheld titles which are a lot cheaper to develop the vast majority of Zelda games have no iterative sequels. Even with lower dev costs nintendo as a publisher still spends millions upon millions to develop the titles.
Yes. OoT got a direct sequel in 2000. Wind Waker got a sequel, Link to the Past, as well. BotW 2 is hardly unique in that regard.