• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.

Dali

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,184
I just checked a hand full of installed Apps. Yelp is bad too. Bad enough that I will now delete it and just use the website version.
Yelp does not need to see my browsing history.
Yelp like pinterest forces you to download their app for full site viewing (on mobile). Any website that does this is an instant nope from me.

Facebook has profiles on people that aren't even Facebook users. The insidious nature of the app was pretty apparent to me when it recommended my doctor as a friend. We have no friends in common. Why would it recommend her? This was years ago I've since deleted the app from my phone as best as I'm able. Fuck Samsung's preloaded bullshit.
 
Last edited:

OgTheEnigma

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,803
Liverpool
You can run Messenger in web, but you have to put your browser in a Desktop mode. The mobile version redirects you to the app store.
Up until a few weeks ago, you could use m.facebook in desktop mode, and it would open the messages properly and you could read them in fullscreen. Now it just shows the message "The link you followed may be broken, or the page may have been removed".

If I go to the full desktop site (without m.) on mobile, then I can still open messages. But now it's awful, since it only opens up a tiny window in the bottom right corner, which makes scrolling through and reading a lot more difficult.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,197
I didn't know they had already rolled this feature out. It's genuinely great, even as a publisher, to force pubs to list everything they collect.
 

Xater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,905
Germany
I'd get rid of Facebook, but I need the account for my work, so what can I do?

But I am at least not actively using it anymore, except for work stuff. It's just shitty that for all the business stuff they require from you to use your private account.
 

SoundLad

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,249
Funny how Instagram and Facebook seem to be the only apps that I can't uninstall from my Galaxy S8 - only 'disable'...
 

AdamT

Member
Oct 27, 2017
353
Providence, Rhode Island
Anyone have a recommendation for an ios Messenger client alternative? A quick search and I found Friendly Social Browser. It seems to block trackers etc.

Edit: Friendly doesn't do Messenger only it looks like?
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,432
They can only collect this data when you use the site/app? If i have an old account I went back to, and deleted all friends, posts, comments. Only use FB for login to quest 2. How much are they gettin from me?
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,665
It requires clear explanation of how your data is collected and stored, what it's used for and your consent for each use, as I understand it.
This is in theory correct, however there are Ooijen and Vrabec have completed a rather detailed analysis of the control which GDPR provides to consumers and there are some key issues which GDPR does not address (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10603-018-9399-7).

Of particular note:
1. When presented with a consent box, people will often just consent regardless of the data capture.
2. People have a poor understanding of the explanations commonly provided and an even poorer understanding of how this is used and the implications of this.

This feature by Apple is helpful in trying to mitigate these by making them more digestible. As you say it's a requirement to do this anyway, but there is no requirement on how digestible or comprehensible that should be to consumers (e.g. track usage behaviour; if you're not aware of what that means already there is no way you can make an informed decision on whether to allow that) whereas this provides a much more consistent and digestible explanation of what is tracked.
 

Dali

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,184
I'd get rid of Facebook, but I need the account for my work, so what can I do?

But I am at least not actively using it anymore, except for work stuff. It's just shitty that for all the business stuff they require from you to use your private account.
I was lucky. I created a business account for work stuff before they started requiring pictures and shit. God I hate Facebook.
 

Shodan14

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,410
This is in theory correct, however there are Ooijen and Vrabec have completed a rather detailed analysis of the control which GDPR provides to consumers and there are some key issues which GDPR does not address (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10603-018-9399-7).

Of particular note:
1. When presented with a consent box, people will often just consent regardless of the data capture.
2. People have a poor understanding of the explanations commonly provided and an even poorer understanding of how this is used and the implications of this.

This feature by Apple is helpful in trying to mitigate these by making them more digestible. As you say it's a requirement to do this anyway, but there is no requirement on how digestible it should be to consumers whereas this provides a much more consistent and digestible explanation of what is tracked.
All good points and businesses enforcing this is only a good thing. I do hope that the next step for GDPR will be educating citizens and stopping companies from hiding behind hundreds of pages of privacy policy. Some have done a good job, but it is quite rare.
 

Stoof

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,759
Haven't used Facebook for a decade and I'm always surprised by how many non-old people are still using it.
 

Mr_Zombie

Member
Oct 27, 2017
971
Poland
Haven't used Facebook for a decade and I'm always surprised by how many non-old people are still using it.

It became a default message board for a lot of people (groups), a basic e-commerce tool for small businesses, a calendar for creating and updating events, and a way for entertainment (bands, clubs, actors, local businesses etc.) to communicate with their clients and/or fans.

I haven't posted anything on my wall for years now. And yet I'm still using Facebook to either keep in touch with friends, be updated on certain events and talk in groups.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,665
All good points and businesses enforcing this is only a good thing. I do hope that the next step for GDPR will be educating citizens and stopping companies from hiding behind hundreds of pages of privacy policy. Some have done a good job, but it is quite rare.
Honestly I think it's very complex, and particularly for people without an exposure to a commerce or data science environment, it's very challenging to understand how powerful data capture (particularly in the context of an online environment) is.

Particularly in the age of TV and print advertising, the misguided view of "marketing doesn't work on me" was prevalent, but particularly since the marketing paradigm shift I think that view has grown and is, ironically, even more misguided now given the power that tracking enables.

When retailers can build incredibly detailed customer profiles touching on all demographic elements (age, location, current location, estimated salary, political affiliation, contact information, opt in status and preferences, gender), buying behaviour (preferred brands, preferred time to purchase, preferred location and store to purchase from, cross-shopping behaviour, brands likely to convert on, preferred products and product types), sentiment analysis (how they feel about the brand or individual stores, what brands they like and dislike, what products they like and dislike and the reasons, what marketing campaigns they prefer, what sort of copy is best to make people transact or have an emotional response), and behavioural analysis (how often they engage with emails/online ads, when is the best time to send campaigns or recommendations to result in engagement and conversion, tracking how long people on average spend on site and how many items they click before deciding to make a purchase, what sort of customer flow is typical, and what they have an affinity for and are likely to convert next on or could be cross-sold on) there is incredibly powerful and highly subtle techniques that can be applied to optimise sales.

When data from social media channels can be cross-referenced (e.g. integrating social ads from Facebook or Google by matching data or by developing lookalike audiences) to deliver highly personalised advertisements at the time when people are most susceptible to engage, and techniques can be refined by not only AB-testing (as traditionally done) but personalising ads down to an individual level and optimising all aspects of the content for an individual (time you see it, what you see, what the copy is, what the model is like, which product it is and what colours are in the ad) without people even being aware that it's happening, it's very hard in my opinion for people to be properly educated on just how powerful and pervasive data capture can be.

Furthermore, it's very difficult for people to really get a sense of how their own behaviour is influenced by these techniques because of how distant cause and effect can be; a man browsing a bag for a certain brand on Facebook may not realise that this played a direct and subconscious role in purchasing a different handbag for a competing brand on a different website after seeing an image of the handbag held by a male model. The effect is so distanced from what can be measurably shown to have played a significant role in triggering it that from a consumer perspective it's incredibly difficult to understand how the role it actually played (and could be easily dismissed as 'being my own conscious decision' instead of powerful marketing and data-techniques being applied to drive you to that decision).
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,197
If it's not Facebook, then they get your data via Instagram or Whatsapp.
And yet we all still use WhatsApp.

I can't imagine that's any better.

*sigh *

This isn't really true, in that if you check WhatsApp's AppStore page, it's not great in that the app does collect user linked data mostly for its own use, but it doesn't have the absolute shitload of tracking Facebook does.
 

Aiii

何これ
Member
Oct 24, 2017
8,176
Anyways, instead of talking about Facebook, which we already know tracks everything. Perhaps we need to address how this website facilitates way too many tracking websites, which of course it discloses, but is kind of ridiculous. It's logging 19(!) distinct websites it contacts for this purpose. One of few website that even hits double digits.

Screenshot_2020-12-15_at_15.21.48.png

Screenshot_2020-12-15_at_15.22.12.png
 

Mechaplum

Enlightened
Member
Oct 26, 2017
18,794
JP
Not surprised really, I work with a colleague from a data privacy firm and it seems that almost all cookies eventually end up with three vendors: Google, Facebook and Yandex.

So yes, cookies from your online grocery shops will be "aggregated" and be visible to those giants.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,809
This isn't really true, in that if you check WhatsApp's AppStore page, it's not great in that the app does collect user linked data mostly for its own use, but it doesn't have the absolute shitload of tracking Facebook does.
That's interesting, would have expected Facebook to have the same behaviour across all its apps. I remember there was talks to bring it all together internally, so that users of the various apps could see and talk with each other, I think the original WhatsApp dev even quit over this. I still do believe that their long term plan is to have all these apps act the same in the back-end, same data collecting behaviour etc., just with a different front-end for the user.
 

mordecaii83

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
6,853
Anyways, instead of talking about Facebook, which we already know tracks everything. Perhaps we need to address how this website facilitates way too many tracking websites, which of course it discloses, but is kind of ridiculous. It's logging 19(!) distinct websites it contacts for this purpose. One of few website that even hits double digits.

Screenshot_2020-12-15_at_15.21.48.png

Screenshot_2020-12-15_at_15.22.12.png
It's for reasons like this that I use a script blocker and multiple ad-blockers/privacy trackers , I don't trust any website to handle my data properly (including this one unfortunately).
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,665
Anyways, instead of talking about Facebook, which we already know tracks everything. Perhaps we need to address how this website facilitates way too many tracking websites, which of course it discloses, but is kind of ridiculous. It's logging 19(!) distinct websites it contacts for this purpose. One of few website that even hits double digits.

Screenshot_2020-12-15_at_15.21.48.png

Screenshot_2020-12-15_at_15.22.12.png
I don't think the volume is necessarily a problem. The arguably much more concerning aspect if looking solely at this site is that (from what I can see in the settings and Cookies and Privacy Policy Help section here: https://www.resetera.com/help/cookies/), is that there does not appear to be a way to update cookie preferences and withdraw consent (i.e. changing from allowing all cookies to strictly necessary only which is a gdpr requirement https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...s/data-protection-online-privacy/index_en.htm and simply directs you to your browser but admittedly I could be missing where the Cookie Preference opt in is saved). Regarding this site specifically though, it certainly is not comparable to what is being tracked by the likes of Google or Facebook.

EDIT: Having looked in to this further given Shodan14's comment below, the first time this was raised looks to have been 2018 which is...very concerning from a GDPR risk point of view given that ads are still running and it is not addressed, but regardless isn't the key point of the topic.
 
Last edited:

Shodan14

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,410
I don't think the volume is necessarily a problem. The arguably much more concerning aspect if looking solely at this site is that (from what I can see in the settings and Cookies and Privacy Policy Help section (https://www.resetera.com/help/cookies/), is that there does not appear to be a way to update cookie preferences and withdraw (i.e. changing from allowing all cookies to strictly necessary only which is a gdpr requirement https://europa.eu/youreurope/citize...s/data-protection-online-privacy/index_en.htm and simply directs you to your browser but admittedly I could be missing where the Cookie Preference opt in is saved). Regarding this site specifically though, it certainly is not comparable to what is being tracked by the likes of Google or Facebook.
Pretty sure this has been brought up before and quickly brushed away by the site management.
 

MrKlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,037
how granular and contextual are these notices? Eg could something like lastpass say it needs access to browser history if it only uses an in-app browser for launching sites, or would that notice only appear if its tracking your safari/system browser?
 

Lord Arcadio

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,171
Apple being able to do this to Facebook is the reason Facebook spends billions investing in VR.

Leaked Zuckerberg email:
www.roadtovr.com

Leaked Zuckerberg Email Reveals Facebook's XR Strategy, 'Our goal is not only to win, but to accelerate its arrival'

An internal email sent by Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg to senior executives offers a glimpse into the strategic thinking behind the company’s feet-first leap into XR following the 2014 acquisition of Oculus. Update (February 14th, 2019): Sources tell Road to VR that the email in question is...
The strategic goal is the clearest. We are vulnerable on mobile to Google and Apple because they make major mobile platforms. We would like a stronger strategic position in the next wave of computing. We can achieve this only by building both a major platform as well as key apps.

I will discuss the main elements of the platform and key apps further below, but for now keep in mind that we need to succeed in building both a major platform and key apps to improve our strategic position on the next platform. If we only build key apps but not the platform, we will remain in our current position [of being beholden to platform holders]. If we only build the platform but not the key apps, we may be in a worse position. We need to build both.

From a timing perspective, we are better off the sooner the next platform becomes ubiquitous and the shorter the time we exist in a primarily mobile world dominated by Google and Apple. The shorter this time, the less out community is vulnerable to the actions of others. Therefore, our goal is not only to win in VR / AR, but also to accelerate its arrival. This is part of my rationale for acquiring companies and increasing investment in them sooner rather than waiting until later to derisk them further. By accelerating this space, we are derisking our vulnerability on mobile.
 

Aiii

何これ
Member
Oct 24, 2017
8,176
it certainly is not comparable to what is being tracked by the likes of Google or Facebook.
The only thing I agree with is that it's not using the tracking for its own purposes like Google and Facebook are, other than wanting to generate income. But the site has made a conscious choice to allow their users to be tracked by a myriad of tracking websites, including Amazon and Google, and for that they deserve the call-out.

This is a point where I think we should hold website owners (and I'm a web developer myself, so I include myself in this) to a certain standard. Using Facebook and their app is a choice people can make themselves, knowing the consequences. But what we can't choose is what kind of tracking websites subject us to and how many places our data gets send to.

And Resetera especially sends a lot of valuable data about you to these companies. Just think about how very specific your browsing here is. How this website knows all about the things you're passionate about, not just the games you play, but what music you like, what TV-shows and movies you're into, what your political preference is. There's a lot of value collected from you and stored based on that.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,665
The only thing I agree with is that it's not using the tracking for its own purposes like Google and Facebook are, other than wanting to generate income. But the site has made a conscious choice to allow their users to be tracked by a myriad of tracking websites, including Amazon and Google, and for that they deserve the call-out.

This is a point where I think we should hold website owners (and I'm a web developer myself, so I include myself in this) need to be held up to a standard. Using Facebook and their app is a choice people can make themselves, knowing the consequences. But what we can't choose is what kind of tracking websites subject us to and how many places our data gets send to.

And Resetera especially sends a lot of valuable data about you to these websites. Just think about how very specific your browsing here is. How this website knows all about the things you're passionate about, not just the games you play, but what music you like, what TV-shows and movies you're into, what your political preference is. There's a lot of value collected from you and stored based on that.
Not disputing this at all, given that I work in a data science position for an international ecommerce retailer and lead the technical development and integration of anything involving customer analytics and directly use tracking information and mine for data, but just think the data privacy policy of the website is getting into a broader topic than the initial bounds of the thread focusing on Apple's privacy policy features.
 
Last edited:

degauss

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,631
I imagine many apps are like this, not excusing it but they all love data.

I wonder what Instagram and WhatsApp are like, even if you don't use the Facebook app, they get you regardless really, websites, other services etc.
Instagram is very similar looking to Facebook.

Whatsapp, not nearly as bad as either.
 

ManNR

Member
Feb 13, 2019
2,956
Anybody still on Facebook at this point have it coming.

I have to use it for work and I hate it. Have hated it for years. The relationship Facebook forces between personal accounts and business accounts is incestuous.

I've been on Facebook since 2005.
One day I'll be able to leave the platform.

200.webp
 

Keyouta

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,193
Canada
I think I'm good. I've been off facebook for like five years now, and only use instagram sparingly (have 4 photos uploaded to it, the last one is from like years ago). I do use WhatsApp though, but it seems like that one's not nearly as bad.
 

Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,171
Screw Facebook, but other apps should be watched too.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of mobile apps try to get as much personal info as possible.
 

so1337

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,476
I cant really take a screenshot right now, but the entire "data used to track you" category is gone. the entire privacy thing is like a fifth of the facebook app.
Yeah, I'm seeing it now. It is less egregiously long but it still has a couple of noteworthy items like "coarse location, payment info and purchase history." Cannot think of a reason why a messenger would need my purchase info or location. 🤔
 

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
Yeah, I'm seeing it now. It is less egregiously long but it still has a couple of noteworthy items like "coarse location, payment info and purchase history." Cannot think of a reason why a messenger would need my purchase info or location. 🤔

I know I paid for whatsapp at some point, maybe it's that? Location is for app functionality: you can send your locationn to others.

These are all filed under app functionality btw, not tracking.
 

Engell

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,614
how about being able to block all that crap.... why are phones even making this data available to apps
 

ReAxion

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,882
Unless you're facing a specific crisis related to your recent activity, you don't have to worry about being able to delete your data. Just stop giving them fresh data. Old data is useless for what they want (which is why some volunteer to delete it after a few months).
 

Aurongel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
7,065
how about being able to block all that crap.... why are phones even making this data available to apps
Having these data hungry services like Facebook and Instagram on their mobile platforms is a massive value add from Apple and Google's perspective. Could you imagine the blowback Apple would receive if Facebook weren't available on their platform but was on Android? The recent Fortnite dispute was a taste of this and consumers are more motivated by obvious platform differences like that then subversive and subtle things like mass private data collection. Consumers will always be more vocal about obvious in-your-face issues like the Fortnite dispute rather than more nebulous things like data privacy.

Consumers aren't entirely to blame though, I empathize with a lot of their ignorance surrounding the ubiquity of data collection. Companies like Facebook go to GREAT lengths to make that aspect of their business opaque as hell.

It's why you see so many believers in the asinine conspiracy theory that the phones themselves are spying on consumers when in reality, it's these large data companies behind the scenes that are building consumer profiles on everyone without their full knowledge.
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,138
Washington
If it's not Facebook, then they get your data via Instagram or Whatsapp.

I don't use either one of those. But I admit I still have an fb account and I do go to the he website. And I think somehow they still manage to get data that way cause I barely ever post now and get ads from them that are obviously very targeted but not something I posted on fb about.
 

Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,138
Washington
I've noticed you can't view Facebook messages via the web on the mobile site since the past week or so. I feel like it's another step to force people to install their horribly intrusive Messenger App.

It's been like that for a while. I know cause I refuse to put any Facebook app on my devices so for a while I can only read messages while I'm at my computer. And just recently I got notified they have an app for my computer for messages so I wonder how long until they force you to use an app to get messages. At that point I'll just tell people I can't read any messages.
 

Grenouille

Member
Nov 26, 2017
660
Instagram is very similar looking to Facebook.

Whatsapp, not nearly as bad as either.
So why isn't the thread title and OP about Facebook AND Instagram? Instagram is even more relevant as a platform than fb at this point. I feel like Instagram, weirdly enough, has a better brand image than Facebook, so people don't criticize it as much
 

Saganator

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,993
I still use Facebook for some stuff but I won't install their app on my phone. Just use the web version on my PC sometimes.
 

Tbm24

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,206
Sigh, wish Facebook never bought Whatsapp. Is the only app I need to have to communicate with my family as a whole.
 

Futureman

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,400
I think I'm good. I've been off facebook for like five years now, and only use instagram sparingly (have 4 photos uploaded to it, the last one is from like years ago). I do use WhatsApp though, but it seems like that one's not nearly as bad.

so you use 2 of 3 FB services. I'm not an expert but you are probably be tracked to hell and back. The article mentions people not even on the services have profiles to gather information.