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Vexii

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,386
UK
Apple isn't just "doing whatever they want" though. They will point to the court to the TOS or whatever other document that Epic agreed to a long time ago and highlight an exact line that Epic violated. They're not just making up rules.
Sometimes you need to push the boundaries of your agreement to show that the agreement terms are bullshit, especially if you have literally no other option.

With this, Epic are saying to the courts "Look, Apple not only completely control their entire ecosystem and have a monopolistic share of the market, but can ruin an entire entity just for adding an alternative payment option that allows competitive pricing for the consumer. Isn't that a brazen display of antitrust market dominance?"

Nothing will make Epic's case more apparent than performative action that specifically highlights the behaviours by Apple that Epic are trying to highlight.

They're basically saying "Dad, my brother hit me!" and then annoying their brother so badly that they hit them again right in front of their dad.
 

TechnicPuppet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,834
So when is a company that creates a product or service, allowed to do with it as they please? Was Apple allowed to do this back when they were very small and now suddenly they can't because they're bigger? When does that change?

That's exactly right. They are now part of a massive duopoly. They should now be targeted the way MS were.

Internet Explorer had 70% market share or something until MS had to decouple it from Windows.
 

SpottieO

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,614
Anyone thinking that Epic won't turn this on Sony, MS and Nintendo later just because of some rando tweet from Sweeney are delusional. This is the start for them, they want an epic game store on everything.
 

Kaeden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,905
US
The whole "their platform, their rules" sentiment is so weird to me.

If, for example, Microsoft drops all Win32 support on Windows, would people say the same? I mean, Windows is their platform. Their rules.

I'm not going to talk about the lawsuit because that's way over my league. They are also two powerful companies that don't need me defending either of them. But Apple has me thinking about not having an iPhone whenever I get a new phone. Something being legal/a rule doesn't make it right. And I don't agree with them blocking out the Steam Remote and xCloud apps (or their full functionality), or indirectly hurting developers using Unreal Engine.

I don't care about whoever wins the lawsuit, or if there's a settlement. But we do need to discuss how Apple's actions are hurting game developers - small or big.
Why would they drop Win32 support? Was it to enhance or make the experience better for some reason? Then maybe I'd be perfectly fine with it. That's a weird comparison to make though.
 

Deleted member 51789

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 9, 2019
3,705
Epic should have expected this (and possibly did), but this isn't a great look for Apple at a time where they're facing antitrust cases and strong-arming tactics have been cited specifically in Epics case against them.

Is there anyway they can both lose? That's surely the best outcome here.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,441
I would've loved to see Steve Jobs handle this.

Also, I remember when Epic showed Fortnite at some WWDC conference and it was a base building game. Who could've predicted it?
 

Sorel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,518
I have no idea why anyone is cheering on Apple here. As a long-time iPhone user, I want Apple to lose this one badly. Their monopolistic practices resulted in Steam streaming getting blocked for months/years, in GamePass not coming to iOS, and being unable to use anything but Apple's services to purchase media through the phone itself. If Epic wins this, it opens the doors to many more interesting apps on the store.
Can you do all this on a PS4 ? No you can't. And I'm all for Closed platform, there are open platform as alternatives, no one is forcing you.
 

LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,357
I don't get this question.

You break TOS in a service you signed in, they can close your account. Doesn't matter if it's an email address, a permaban in some Forum site, a shopping account, a developing environment, an insurance, etc...

Why this could be ilegal?
Using monopolistic position (~50% of smartphones in the US are iOS) to throttle all competing payment processors. That's what Epic is suing them for as of this moment.
 

Refyref

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,025
The difference between Apple and consoles is that Apple makes what is considered "general-purpose computing" devices, and an antitrust ruling against them would likely not affect how consoles operate.
 

Maple-Rebel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 15, 2018
585
What percent do Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo take for most developers?
30 %. So far as I know.

Apple went nuclear because Epic tried to make fools of them instead of negotiating. Don't love either company, but Epic went full asshole. They had a good idea—reduce fees—and then got way too smart for their own good. Weaponizing fans is never good.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,441
I read most of the lawsuit and it didn't seem to be anything that was unique to Epic and it used several examples of other companies e.g (Microsoft with xCloud). A lot of it was about possibilities that are harmed by the current system and reasons why the behavious is anticompetivtive and preempting reasons Apple will use to explain it away. They were able to use explicit exampless of how the system harms them in Fortnite, but again that applies to every company doing IAP. Maybe I missed a part but it feels to me that any IAP user could have brought this lawsuit.

See pages, 1, 61 and 62. This is not a class action lawsuit. While it is true that any IAP could file such a suit, the relief provided might not serve Epic's interest best. Furthermore any potential settlement agreement would not include them.
 

MaverickHunterAsh

Good Vibes Gaming
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
1,396
Los Angeles, CA.
There are definitely no good guys in this situation, but I don't see how Apple isn't well within their rights here (for better and worse, mostly worse in this case). It seems to me Epic (or their lawyers) made a huge miscalculation here and innocent parties -- as in, other Mac/iOS devs using UE4 -- stand to suffer most from the fallout, but I'm certainly no legal expert.
 

Kaeden

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,905
US
That's exactly right. They are now part of a massive duopoly. They should now be targeted the way MS were.

Internet Explorer had 70% market share or something until MS had to decouple it from Windows.
Didn't the judge dismiss or overturn much of that and then Microsoft and the government came to their own remedy outside the initial legal ruling?
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,472
The real losers here are small third parties who used unreal engine for their games and now need to decide if they want to remake their entire games in a new engine or risk the games becoming completely unplayable in the future if this doesn't get sorted out and compatability issues with the current Unreal Engine and newer iOS versions inevitably start rearing their heads
 

Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
No he's still quite right. Consoles, if not sold at a loss, have TINY profit margins. They primarily make the money in game, peripheral, and as of recently online service, sales. You know what the profit margin is for iPhones? Above 60%. Apple literally sells devices devices for over 40% more than they cost them. The economics of consoles vs iPhones are completely different.

So the Switch isn't sold at a loss. You ever wondered why its peripherals are so expensive, especially compared to past Nintendo consoles? Why extra docks are $60? Why Nintendo suddenly started charging for online? These aren't all coincidences

Apple's HW margins are generally accepted to be 100-200% AFAIK, as in they sell for double or triple what it costs them to produce the physical device. BoM on their old $700 phones used to be in the low $200. Their now $1500 phones are in the high $400's last I saw. Their only products that might be under 100% are the $330 iPad and $399 SE, but even those are probably over 80%. You don't become a trillion dollar company without egregious price gouging.
 
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Riptwo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
390
To be clear, you are incorrect about Hey. The same rules applied to Hey that apply to all the competing paid productivity/email apps.
Newton Mail offers subscriptions via an external payment system and is allowed on the App Store without an in-app subscription option, so how am I incorrect? [EDIT: It seems these rules may apply differently to "reader" apps or corporate vs consumer apps, which once again speaks to a Kafka-esque web of bizarre rules that devs are forced to navigate] And outside of just email apps, why does that category (sometimes) differ from video/delivery/transportation/shopping apps. Is allowing external payment processing for an email app dramatically different than for other services? Why? My argument is that these policies are applied inconsistently.
 
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DealWithIt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,690
30 %. So far as I know.

Apple went nuclear because Epic tried to make fools of them instead of negotiating. Don't love either company, but Epic went full asshole. They had a good idea—reduce fees—and then got way too smart for their own good. Weaponizing fans is never good.

Jfc, you have no idea if they tried negotiating.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,321
Love that some of you think Apple are just nuking Epic out of spite. Apple has been fighting and winning anti trust cases for 30 years but somehow a 2 trillion dollar company gets baited into destroying their business model by edgelord Tim Sweeney.
 

GlowingBovine

Prophet of Truth
Member
Nov 27, 2017
790
The real losers here are small third parties who used unreal engine for their games and now need to decide if they want to remake their entire games in a new engine or risk the games becoming completely unplayable in the future if this doesn't get sorted out and compatability issues with the current Unreal Engine and newer iOS versions inevitably start rearing their heads
I was just about to say the same thing. Something I hadn't initially considered, and it's pretty shitty. Can't imagine being a small indie mobile dev using Unreal right now. I honestly hope they sort something out.
 

Deleted member 17184

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,240
Why would they drop Win32 support? Was it to enhance or make the experience better for some reason? Then maybe I'd be perfectly fine with it. That's a weird comparison to make though.
It's just an example. Windows is their platform, and so they can do whatever they want. But we don't have to agree with a choice just because they can do it. That's why I feel weird about this sentiment.
 

Midee

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,474
CA, USA
For comparison: Epic Games revenue in 2019 was about $4.2 billion, whereas Apple was $260 billion. Apple was bigger than Epic even before Steve Jobs returned, revenue-wise.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,890
Columbia, SC
Apple can literally weather this and be totally fine. And by weather, I mean put on a hat. As fucked as it is to say, a trillion dollar company literally does not have to give a fuck.
 

Lobster Roll

signature-less, now and forever
Member
Sep 24, 2019
34,380
There are definitely no good guys in this situation, but I don't see how Apple isn't well within their rights here (for better and worse, mostly worse in this case). It seems to me Epic (or their lawyers) made a huge miscalculation here and innocent parties (as in, other devs using UE4) stand to suffer most from the fallout, but I'm certainly no legal expert.
I agree with the ideas that Epic is fighting for (even if those ideas are a thinly veiled wrapping around their desire to get EGS onto iPhones), but had they just opened the lawsuit, they would be better off. The intentional violation of the agreement may have felt clever at the time for Epic, but it's just going to bite them in the ass. Depending on the language used within their agreement, Apple could very well be legally right to just go with the nuclear option on Epic with no repercussions.
 

souppboy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
393
Reading this thread show such a stark comparison to many others. The notion of legality v. ethicality is lost to a lot of you.

Apple is acting in bad faith. Epic, while clumsy and attempting viral marketing in a weird way is bringing the anti trust issues that are heavily questioned by world governments lately to the layman. If your kids know about it you will try to find out.

Epic isn't a good guy, but this move was calculated. If it was hastily done they would surely lose quick and without fight.

At the end of the day just because Apple can doesn't mean they should. Thats the whole issue. I wish it was a more grassroots morally clean fighter in the ring, but that's impossible when you're fighting a company like APPLE
 

dude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,639
Tel Aviv
I mean, I'm far from on Epic's side here - But how are people cheering Apple's move here? This will hurt many devs and players, just because two corporations are squabbling?
 

eathdemon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,690
Yep. It's a rediculous argument with both Sony and MS especially since they are both massive companies that make tons of money in other ways besides video games, much like Apple. I can maybe buy the "support the gaming industry cuz they subsidize consoles" argument if we were talking about Nintendo here.

Choosing to come after Apple while excusing away Google, MS, and Sony is rediculous and short sighted. It doesnt matter what high profile antitrust lawyer they have, there is no winning this against Apple. Period.
exept they just might (not in the us) but the eu. I can see a number of mobile devs in the eu complaining over this.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,441
In all honesty? Close to 0$ in their eyes. Don't even need to look at his worth.

You are closer to Elon Musk's fortune than Elon Musk is close to Jeff Bezos. Do you understand the difference of grandeur between « rich » and « richest on earth » ?

You missed my point, Robert Pepper is a nobody. Yet the class action that Apple lost against him (Apple v Pepper) opened the door for a world of pain down the road. The plaintiff(s)' networth is immaterial.
 

SilkySm00th

Member
Oct 31, 2017
4,803
I don't have much care or stake for either mega-corporation and their millions-dollars daily Lawyer fees that they can mostly just scoff at buuuuut....

Fuckin LAWL right here. Make fun of apple, say they are the absolutely worst (charging the industry standard fee), mobilize your shitty little kid fanbase against them, straight up file a lawsuit and then Pikachu face when Apple starts cutting out your dev tools and inroads to their systems??!!

As if they didn't see this shit coming. So dumb.
 
OP
OP
dex3108

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,608
Also no matter who wins in the end this could drag for years. That could have huge impact on Epic.
 

thecaseace

Member
May 1, 2018
3,219
There's a lot of people that think Apple wields an outsized amount of power over their App stores that needs to be regulated and those people are being proved right.

Whilst this is essentially a stunt from Epic, it's one thing to remove the offending app, that will result in a small revenue hit from new users that is in itself punishment for Epic. It's a whole other thing altogether to remove all developer accounts for the firm, that's a pretty massive effect across Epic's entire business.
 

Aaron D.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,326
They are no different then Apple. If Apple were to lose and Epic gets their way, I'm willing to bet it'll be a totally different attitude around here if Epic targets the console makers next.

Epic won't even have to.

If they win this case my grandma (god rest her soul) could easily go up against Sony, MS, Nintendo because the precedent has already been set in stone.

Niche product (consoles) vs. "essential" (phones) makes zero difference.

Walled gardens are walled gardens.

If one falls, the rest will follow like dominoes.
 

Naga

Alt account
Banned
Aug 29, 2019
7,850
Reading this thread show such a stark comparison to many others. The notion of legality v. ethicality is lost to a lot of you.

Apple is acting in bad faith. Epic, while clumsy and attempting viral marketing in a weird way is bringing the anti trust issues that are heavily questioned by world governments lately to the layman. If your kids know about it you will try to find out.

Epic isn't a good guy, but this move was calculated. If it was hastily done they would surely lose quick and without fight.

At the end of the day just because Apple can doesn't mean they should. Thats the whole issue. I wish it was a more grassroots morally clean fighter in the ring, but that's impossible when you're fighting a company like APPLE
I don't think anybody said what Apple was doing was ethical. It's still perfectly legal.

Just like Epic trying to weaponize young gamers to make their PR work for them is legal, yet it isn't ethical either.