Apple will terminate all Epic Games dev accounts and tool access on August 28th, Epic filing to halt the termination

[BAD]

He's right here. 100%

Consoles would not exist without the 30% fee. Apple make money on hardware, Sony and MS subsidise it.

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He's not at all 100% right lol. Consoles often take a loss at launch, but not for their full lifespan. None of the current consoles are believed to have been sold at a loss in the time Fortnite has been around. Sony even said PS4 would not be like PS3 where they launched at a major loss and would be quickly equalized by the lower R&D due to using stock parts from partnerships.

Even more wrong, is that this is not even something you can generalize because the #2 console and Epic's own partner Nintendo said they have never sold Switch at a loss. So no, his justification is incorrect and hypocritical, especially considering he is saying he's ok with high developer fees to subsidize the big guys in some cases and not others, when he absolutely does not have a consistent barometer for why.

 

[blazinglazers]

What are the consequences for Epic winning the suit? I haven't been following that closely.

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Epic and others could open stores to compete with Apple on Apple devices, and could offer competitive cuts (take less than 30%) to developers, or allow developers options to handle their own mtx / subscription payments, giving developers a larger profit margin.

 

[EloquentM]

Everyone who keeps popping in with the "Epic has no clue what it's doing" hot takes needs to take a minute and get educated.

Christine Varney, along multiple other notable antitrust experts is Epic's counsel.

Epic has this whole thing researched and orchestrated out many more moves than you aware, and it's much more sophisticated than most (if not all of us) can possibly appreciate. I'd advise caution against jumping to conclusions about the viability of the case and/or the effect of each new blow in the PR war. Basically all of us understand less than we think we do.

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.

 

[bob100]

Didn't Apple hurt their case when they allowed Netflix to bypass paying through Apple. So they aren't applying their rules equally to everyone.

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I don't have an IOS device but didn't Netflix just remove all in app purchases in the IOS app forcing people to buy Netflix from the netflix website direct and not via the app

This doesn't break IOS terms.

Epic created their own payment service in app which breaks TOS

 

[Dmonzy]

They would just change to another engine like unity engine

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Many developers have invested a lot of resources in their UE builds. Simply "switching over" to a different engine could cause less-funded teams to give up completely. Not to mention, certain things that UE does well Unity does not and vice versa. The developer's ideas may not be feasible in the Unity environment.

Hopefully this is a giant bluff by Apple to get Epic to calm down, but if they go through with this then there will be some pretty far reaching consequences.

 

[Dreamwriter]

Would you guys say that Unreal Engine is becoming a defacto monopoly in the engine market?

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Unity is being used more and more for big games, as they've been improving their engine, so no. Especially when it comes to VR and AR.

 

[Magneto]

Do you honestly think that consumers will benefit in any way from this? Epic sues because they want more profit. That's all.

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Developers will benefit from this. So that's a good thing, no ?

 

[Kaeden]

Just imagine Microsoft having not only final say in what runs on Windows PC but also taking a cut for every transaction done on one.

Do you guys think that's fine? Microsoft spends a lot of cash on R&D to develop windows.

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Are you implying that Apple's market share is the same as Windows globally (or even just here in the US)?

 

[Vexii]

So many hot takes in here about "fuck epic lol get dunked on"

But remember that companies do not want to spend money ever, and ideally would love to have infinite income if that were somehow possible.

By opening up an anti-trust lawsuit in this scorched earth method, Epic are using their funds to fight for better App Store terms not only for themselves, but for UE devs and ANY small dev regardless of the engine that they use to publish their games onto the Apple ecosystem for much less than the 30% cut that is still archaically standard in the industry.

This is 100% pro consumer and pro developer. Epic didn't go into this without knowing that Apple would also potentially delist them in their entirety. This is calculated risk that has doubtlessly been in plans for months and has some serious legal competency behind it.

You don't have to like Epic as a company, but it's fucking dim witted to want them to lose just because they've decided to take on a company worth trillions that continues to fuck smaller business. Get out of here with that schoolboy attitude.

 

[Muad'dib]

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Richard Cobbett is awesome, he had the best reviews on PC Gamer and his Crapshoot articles should be in the national archives.

 

[LumberPanda]

What are the consequences for Epic winning the suit? I haven't been following that closely.

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Developers would be able to use competing payment processors/stores on walled off smartphones. Apple would need to make their payment processor opt-out on the app store, or allow competing app stores.

I don't think this will effect consoles, the courts have different opinions on anti-trust when its a general computing device that everyone has VS a niche product.

 

[Deleted member 21709]

He's right here. 100%

Consoles would not exist without the 30% fee. Apple make money on hardware, Sony and MS subsidise it.

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This is incorrect.

Seriously. When this goes to court and Apple loses, consoles could die. I'm not even sure if that's a bad thing yet, but there's potential for massive repercussions of this case in other parts of the industry

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Come on.

 

[Judge]

Epic knew this was a possibility and still went through with it. Apple may have made the decision, but Epic was perfectly fine with doing all this knowing that the devs they support would be the ones really affected. They were perfectly fine with using Unreal devs as pawns here

 

[Tallshortman]

A lot of games on the iOS App Store and on Mac were made with Unreal Engine. Epic can no longer test Unreal Engine on iOS devices, and won't get early access to new versions of Mac OS to test their engine on, or up to date SDKs.

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That's a medium term issue for Epic and not a huge threat overall but a potential massive one for developers obviously. Seems extremely short sighted by Apple to retaliate against an unrelated part of Epic's business

Epic knew this was a possibility and still went through with it. Apple may have made the decision, but Epic was perfectly fine with doing all this knowing that the devs they support would be the ones really affected. They were perfectly fine with using Unreal devs as pawns here

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I doubt Epic thought Apple would attack an unrelated part of their business. I mean would you think the same if Google refused to show search results of UE in retaliation?

 

[Kareha]

Could Tencent get involved? Given their links to CCP and Apples dependence on Chinese manufacturing, I'd assume they can be pressured from different fronts?

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Then wouldn't the US government step in given their hatred of China?

 

[Deleted member 10737]

Wait, does this mean all Unreal Engine games will get pulled from the app store? That's huge

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would be really awkward for the apple arcade games that use UE4

 

[Sorel]

"It was just a prank bro!"

 

[MattEnth]

Do you honestly think that consumers will benefit in any way from this? Epic sues because they want more profit. That's all.

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Yes, I absolutely do think it will benefit consumers. I think consumers are enormously benefited by having that 30% cut be split between them and the developers, rather than Goolge or Apple.

 

[SteveWinwood]

I don't know if Epic has a case here (presumably they think they do if they took the risk), but I am personally of the opinion that phones are essential devices and the barriers to entering the market are high enough that all major players should be forced to provide a route for third party software to bypass their stores

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android does

why people keep buying apple products ill never understand

 

[bye]

There is no way Sony has sold the PS4 at a loss this whole generation. They made a huge profit on hardware. Maybe initially but overall not sold at a loss.

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Yep. It's a rediculous argument with both Sony and MS especially since they are both massive companies that make tons of money in other ways besides video games, much like Apple. I can maybe buy the "support the gaming industry cuz they subsidize consoles" argument if we were talking about Nintendo here.

Choosing to come after Apple while excusing away Google, MS, and Sony is rediculous and short sighted. It doesnt matter what high profile antitrust lawyer they have, there is no winning this against Apple. Period.

 

[Joseph Joestar]

So no UE for iOS and Mac? Thats a bit drastic of Apple. Cutting them off the store and deleting Fortnight is okay but this is a bit over the top.

 

[Karanlos]

He's right here. 100%

Consoles would not exist without the 30% fee. Apple make money on hardware, Sony and MS subsidise it.

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Also the two are different. Phones are becoming essential for everyday life as you keep most of your life on a phone while consoles are just past time and not essential for anyone to function in everyday life.

iOS is such a large portion of the market that Apple deciding who gets to sell apps and who don't makes or breaks businesses. Microsoft didn't get to control their platform and Google didn't either. I really really hope at least EU does something as having the largest market closed off and governed by a single entity is IMO not healthy.
It's not uncommon for Apple or Google to punish developers without saying why the apps violate the TOS. Being cut off from this essential market because they deemed it to violate their TOS or even just decide they don't want it is IMO bad.
Apple even forbids apps from mentioning competing OS in their apps which is laughable.

 

[NekoNeko]

Company under investigation for monopolistic practices acts monopolistic. How can anyone think Apple looks good here?

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but i don't like fortnite :(

 

[Infinity Times Two]

Apple seems to have come at Epic with every possible violation of the agreement it could find. The company cites not just the "Epic direct payment" feature — which kicked off this whole conflict — but also a lack of descriptiveness in Fortnite's app update notes, saying it used too much of a "generic statement." Apple sent its warning letter on August 14th, giving Epic until August 28th to make the changes.

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Oh, so most of the apps on the app store then?

General statements on patch notes is a scourge but deal your iron fist equally.

 

[SpottieO]

Epic knew this was a possibility and still went through with it. Apple may have made the decision, but Epic was perfectly fine with doing all this knowing that the devs they support would be the ones really affected. They were perfectly fine with using Unreal devs as pawns here

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I think epic could have absolutely taken this entire issue to court without trying to go total war and then getting dunked on. This seems like a bizarre self own.

 

[MattEnth]

So many hot takes in here about "fuck epic lol get dunked on"

But remember that companies do not want to spend money ever, and ideally would love to have infinite income if that were somehow possible.

By opening up an anti-trust lawsuit in this scorched earth method, Epic are using their funds to fight for better App Store terms not only for themselves, but for UE devs and ANY small dev regardless of the engine that they use to publish their games onto the Apple ecosystem for much less than the 30% cut that is still archaically standard in the industry.

This is 100% pro consumer and pro developer. Epic didn't go into this without knowing that Apple would also potentially delist them in their entirety. This is calculated risk that has doubtlessly been in plans for months and has some serious legal competency behind it.

You don't have to like Epic as a company, but it's fucking dim witted to want them to lose just because they've decided to take on a company worth trillions that continues to fuck smaller business. Get out of here with that schoolboy attitude.

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This. Completely agree.

 

[Fahro]

Epic move, Apple

 

[Oticon]

So many hot takes in here about "fuck epic lol get dunked on"

But remember that companies do not want to spend money ever, and ideally would love to have infinite income if that were somehow possible.

By opening up an anti-trust lawsuit in this scorched earth method, Epic are using their funds to fight for better App Store terms not only for themselves, but for UE devs and ANY small dev regardless of the engine that they use to publish their games onto the Apple ecosystem for much less than the 30% cut that is still archaically standard in the industry.

This is 100% pro consumer and pro developer. Epic didn't go into this without knowing that Apple would also potentially delist them in their entirety. This is calculated risk that has doubtlessly been in plans for months and has some serious legal competency behind it.

You don't have to like Epic as a company, but it's fucking dim witted to want them to lose just because they've decided to take on a company worth trillions that continues to fuck smaller business. Get out of here with that schoolboy attitude.

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IIRC they don't want a lower fee, they want to open iOS to have their own store on it.

 

[Katana_Strikes]

Just imagine Microsoft having not only final say in what runs on Windows PC but also taking a cut for every transaction done on one.

Do you guys think that's fine? Microsoft spends a lot of cash on R&D to develop windows.

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They do on Xbox.

 

[FerDS]

So everyone in hear cheering on Apple would be ok with Microsoft locking down windows so that only games/apps can be bought from the Microsoft Store and Microsoft takes a 30% cut?

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No, but they might be ok with Microsoft doing that for say, a console. MacOS is not locked down

 

[Buggy Loop]

Billionaires fighting is very entertaining

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The average joe's net value is probably closer to Epic's value, even if it's in billions, than Epic's value compared to Apple.

For Apple the value of epic is closer to a roundup error that shows as 0$ to them. Something that costs 1000.01$, will for any average joe just look like 1000$.

 

[ScubaSteve693]

So basically they knew all this would happen from Apple and happily went ahead knowing it could damage the livelihoods of people that use their tools on mobile all in the name of getting a bit more profit out of fortnite.

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You're doing the same thing everyone here who hates Epic is doing, thinking that this decision would only help Epic profit from it. This would help any and all developers who want to put their applications on iOS and Android. There are already applications on these devices that are not forced to use Apple Payment Services, so if you aren't going to have it be done the same way across the board for every application, why have it there in the first place? Either make it a sweeping rule that EVERYONE needs to follow or open that shit up.

 

[Faabulous]

Are you implying that Apple's market share is the same as Windows globally (or even just here in the US)?

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Does it need to be?
They have 1/4 of the global mobile market, should they be able to keep leveraging network effects when they are this big?

I personally believe no platform should have that power, Apple even less so they are not exactly the small guy with a couple thousand users doing this to survive.

 

[Deleted member 32822]

The Epic bootlicking in this thread.

 

[zombiejames]

So many hot takes in here about "fuck epic lol get dunked on"

But remember that companies do not want to spend money ever, and ideally would love to have infinite income if that were somehow possible.

By opening up an anti-trust lawsuit in this scorched earth method, Epic are using their funds to fight for better App Store terms not only for themselves, but for UE devs and ANY small dev regardless of the engine that they use to publish their games onto the Apple ecosystem for much less than the 30% cut that is still archaically standard in the industry.

This is 100% pro consumer and pro developer. Epic didn't go into this without knowing that Apple would also potentially delist them in their entirety. This is calculated risk that has doubtlessly been in plans for months and has some serious legal competency behind it.

You don't have to like Epic as a company, but it's fucking dim witted to want them to lose just because they've decided to take on a company worth trillions that continues to fuck smaller business. Get out of here with that schoolboy attitude.

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👍

 

[Tunichtgut]

It really sucks, that many smaller developers get dragged into this, but what was Apple supposed to do? Nothing? Give Epic a bigger cut? If they don't do something now, wouldnt that just encourage more companies to start breaking the rules?

 

[MisterAnderson]

It isn't a question of turning on anyone. It's a question of third parties getting by financially. If I'm making a game and deciding right now what engine to use, I would not choose Unreal. No one would barring re-learning costs. It's objectively a needless financial risk compared with Unity or the like. Companies are out to maximize profit, not pick sides in a fight. And the money now leads away from Epic until the lawsuits are done. That's the point.

No company will join a "civil war," sacrificing profit for the chance at a fairer marketplace. The people leading the companies have a fiduciary duty (read: can be sued if they break it) to make money, and they will keep trying to do so in the new environment. Companies don't ever truly take moral stands. Only financial risks.

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I'm strictly referring to third parties that are already using Unreal on released games/content on the marketplace that rely on Epic's support for their engine they're already committed to using.

 

[Deleted member 16876]

I still can't believe Epic thought they could get away with this.
Apple is the type of company that doesn what it wants. They even sell stands for hundreds of dollars last I heard.

Fortnite fans don't matter to them.

 

[Muad'dib]

Epic knew this was a possibility and still went through with it. Apple may have made the decision, but Epic was perfectly fine with doing all this knowing that the devs they support would be the ones really affected. They were perfectly fine with using Unreal devs as pawns here

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Yep, they're now weaponizing developers who rely on their engine, which accounts for 25% of the engine market, aside from weaponizing Fortnite fans.

 

[Morten88]

Many developers have invested a lot of resources in their UE builds. Simply "switching over" to a different engine could cause less-funded teams to give up completely. Not to mention, certain things that UE does well Unity does not and vice versa. The developer's ideas may not be feasible in the Unity environment.

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oh yeah 100% agree on it, im guessing alot of games would be cancelled and some would be able to pull it through, but if i was an indie dev that was creating an game or app in unreal engine for mobile, then i would shit my pants right now

 

[Nzyme32]

Everyone who keeps popping in with the "Epic has no clue what it's doing" hot takes needs to take a minute and get educated.

Christine Varney, along multiple other notable antitrust experts is Epic's counsel.

Epic has this whole thing researched and orchestrated out many more moves than you aware, and it's much more sophisticated than most (if not all of us) can possibly appreciate. I'd advise caution against jumping to conclusions about the viability of the case and/or the effect of each new blow in the PR war. Basically all of us understand less than we think we do.

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Yep.

More insidious, is that the effect on customers and clients is also well calculated by Epic - - everything from the hastag campaign roping in the public and using the Fortnite fanbase in their fight, right down to detrimental effects on developers using UE.

This is absolutely a corporate / political fight, for corporate / political gain primarily.
They give no shits about anyone else.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Yes, I absolutely do think it will benefit consumers. I think consumers are enormously benefited by having that 30% cut be split between them and the developers, rather than Goolge or Apple.

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I'm sorry, but that's not what's going to happen in the long-term. I mean, just look at the current situation: Epic is suing Apple because they want more profit. They break their TOS. You think those exact same people won't extract as much profit as possible from consumers in the future? Don't get distracted by the current price decrease. That's just PR that can and will be changed in the future.

 

[.exe]

Epic knew this was a possibility and still went through with it. Apple may have made the decision, but Epic was perfectly fine with doing all this knowing that the devs they support would be the ones really affected. They were perfectly fine with using Unreal devs as pawns here

Click to shrink...

It would be really something if Epic steps up and compensated developers for damages while they're getting their license back. That would be a power move.

 

[Deleted member 18400]

I don't really have a stake in this fight, as I don't play games on my phone or play Fortnite. I mainly feel bad for small companies that get fucked by UE getting banned.

But honestly Epic should have known this was going to happen. They picked a fight with one of the richest companies on Earth, fighting the good fight or not this is what will come of it.

 

[TheZjman]

Company under investigation for monopolistic practices acts monopolistic. How can anyone think Apple looks good here?

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I think it's worse for Epic. They knowingly broke the company policies about purchases, with a video and lawsuit ready to go, to mobilise thousands of child fans to go at Apple so they could make more money. Abhorrent. I am not saying Apple is right, but Epic get everything coming to them from this.

 

[Moral Panic]

The type of relief Epic are seeking requires that they be a named party. Plus, either way, I cannot think of too many candidates that fit the bill to bring forth such a lawsuit. This isn't a similar situation to Gawker.

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I read most of the lawsuit and it didn't seem to be anything that was unique to Epic and it used several examples of other companies e.g (Microsoft with xCloud). A lot of it was about possibilities that are harmed by the current system and reasons why the behavious is anticompetivtive and preempting reasons Apple will use to explain it away. They were able to use explicit exampless of how the system harms them in Fortnite, but again that applies to every company doing IAP. Maybe I missed a part but it feels to me that any IAP user could have brought this lawsuit.

 

[TechnicPuppet]

Also the two are different. Phones are becoming essential for everyday life as you keep most of your life on a phone while consoles are just past time and not essential for anyone to function in everyday life.

iOS is such a large portion of the market that Apple deciding who gets to sell apps and who don't makes or breaks businesses. Microsoft didn't get to control their platform and Google didn't either. I really really hope at least EU does something as having the largest market closed off and governed by a single entity is IMO not healthy.
It's not uncommon for Apple or Google to punish developers without saying why the apps violate the TOS. Being cut off from this essential market because they deemed it to violate their TOS or even just decide they don't want it is IMO bad.
Apple even forbids apps from mentioning competing OS in their apps which is laughable.

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People can't see nuance in my experience. Everything is the same. The iphone is basically a computer that billions have in their pocket and Apple absolutely should not get to control it the way they do and get 30% of everything.

There would be utter outrage if MS starting blocking Apps from Windows and demanding 30% of everything.

Whether you like epic or not as consumers it's in our interests to have Apple firmly put in place.

 

[Faabulous]

They do on Xbox.

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It's bad there too and this lawsuit could set a precedent that weakens that

 

[Cosmic Voyager]

I just realized Unity was founded in Denmark, never knew that. Denmark represent!

 

[Lobster Roll]

Epic knew this was a possibility and still went through with it. Apple may have made the decision, but Epic was perfectly fine with doing all this knowing that the devs they support would be the ones really affected. They were perfectly fine with using Unreal devs as pawns here

Click to shrink...

I think they would have been much better off with their approach, too, had they not had the entire process mapped & planned out, including that video and its galvanization of its fanbase with the #freefortnite nonsense. Their goodwill has been kind of shot lately, and them pouring so much emotion into their submitted documents and also mentioning their attempts to get the EGS onto Apple devices has people side-eyeing their entire approach. Them wielding their fanbase and Unreal devs in such a cavalier manner is frankly absurd.