Apple is asking Valve to provide huge amount of sales data to fight Epic; Valve refuses [up: Valve forced to comply, see threadmark]

dex3108 · Feb 25, 2021

Zaph said:
Valve Ordered to Give Apple Information on 436 Steam Games As Part of Epic Games Legal Case

Valve, the makers behind popular game distribution platform Steam, will be forced to hand over aggregate historical sales, price, and other...

www.macrumors.com

Request largely granted, and going by the judge's comments there are more to come.

Epic must have known all platform holders would end up dragged into a lawsuit like this, there's so much at stake, so maybe they hoped Apple would have conceded by now?

Well I guess that some publishers/developers will be really pissed at Apple now.

Madjoki · Feb 25, 2021

U.S. Magistrate Judge Thomas S. Hixson ordered that Apple's subpoena for the data to Valve was valid, however, noted that Apple has "salted the earth with subpoenas," telling Valve "don't worry, it's not just you."

lol. Apple wanting data of all their competitors is supposed to make it better rather than worse?

I expect Valve to appeal this, to be honest.

Alexandros said:
Interesting, is there any chance that some of that data will be be made public?

Well, it's for Apple only unless they use something in court (but even then would likely be sealed).

Delusibeta · Feb 25, 2021

Zaph said:
Valve Ordered to Give Apple Information on 436 Steam Games As Part of Epic Games Legal Case

Valve, the makers behind popular game distribution platform Steam, will be forced to hand over aggregate historical sales, price, and other...

www.macrumors.com

Request largely granted, and going by the judge's comments there are more to come.

Epic must have known all platform holders would end up dragged into a lawsuit like this, there's so much at stake, so maybe they hoped Apple would have conceded by now?

Huh. Interesting times ahead, since the odds that Apple has chanced their arm and asked Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo for similar data is very high. Since they got (most of) the data they asked for here, odds are high that they'll got (most of) the data from the console manufacturers. I think Apple is going to be making some very interesting claims in the court case. One thing's for sure, it looks like Apple is spoiling for a fight.

Good4Squat · Feb 25, 2021

I really can't stand Apple, so I hope Valve stick to their guns on this.

Karlinel · Feb 25, 2021

Was the logical conclussion, dragging the others into this fight to close it down with force. We'll see if it works out in Apple's benefit though.

kami_sama · Feb 25, 2021

Welp, I didn't expect it to go this way. That's a lot of info, and I really don't know what is going to be public.
On the one hand I want everything to be public, as Valve is private they don't need to release numbers, but I really wanna know how the business is going. On the other, it might be tmi.

Ricky_R · Feb 25, 2021

First reply aged well it seems.

giapel · Feb 25, 2021

Twinsun said:
I really can't stand Apple, so I hope Valve stick to their guns on this.

Don't take sides in corporate litigation. There's no good guys

Boogolo · Feb 25, 2021

Damn I never thought a judge would grant them a subpoena, it seems quite tangential plus gives apple a ton of data on a platform that theoretically they could create a rival to.
I presume Valve are going to keep fighting this

ColdSun · Feb 25, 2021

Twinsun said:
I really can't stand Apple, so I hope Valve stick to their guns on this.

Makes more sense to ignore any and all feelings about the individual companies involved, and look at the facts.

Linus815 · Feb 25, 2021

giapel said:
Don't take sides in corporate litigation. There's no good guys

Lmao, there is no "sides" when apple literally forced valve to get into it despite saying they don't want to.

wafflebrain · Feb 25, 2021

giapel said:
Don't take sides in corporate litigation. There's no good guys

Well I'd say the devs whose sales data is being forced to be handed over and whatever other sensitive info related to that places them firmly in "not the bad guys" territory. Say what you will about Valve but they're getting dragged into this because of Epic's/Sweeney's idiocy. Valve would likely not be too hurt by this data being released, but certain devs could potentially be affected in a not great way. I think it's perfectly reasonable to give side eye to Apple over Valve in this particular situation while recognizing Epic started this clusterfuck to begin with.

Roytheone · Feb 25, 2021

Boogolo said:
Damn I never thought a judge would grant them a subpoena, it seems quite tangential plus gives apple a ton of data on a platform that theoretically they could create a rival to.
I presume Valve are going to keep fighting this

I wonder if valve could now force apple to give them their data, claiming it would give apple an unfair advantage if this data exchange was a one way street.

Windu · Feb 25, 2021

Welp, didn't expect that to be approved.

Good4Squat · Feb 25, 2021

giapel said:
Don't take sides in corporate litigation. There's no good guys

Nah, Apple does plenty that makes med want to root against them, not saying other companies aren't bad, though I do think Epic is the lesser evil in this case.

Greenpaint · Feb 25, 2021

Wait the article mentions that Apple only requested data on 436 games (and it was granted for those 436), but quotes in OP mention requests for ALL Steam games?

That is, Apple wants Valve to provide the names, prices, configurations and dates of every product on Steam

but that it instead is only requesting data on 436 games

What's going on? Why this discrepancy?

436 games is a very limited scope IMO.

Madjoki · Feb 25, 2021

Greenpaint said:
Wait the article mentions that Apple only requested data on 436 games (and it was granted for those 436), but quotes in OP mention requests for ALL Steam games?

What's going on? 436 games is a very limited scope IMO.

All games was Apple's original request, but they changed it to only 436 before asking judge to force it.
(It's games that were released on both Steam & Epic Games Store)

toy_brain · Feb 25, 2021

giapel said:
Don't take sides in corporate litigation. There's no good guys

100% this.

Nobody should be cheerleading Valve's ability to hide potentially massive corporate profits.
I use Steam as much as everybody else here, but something tells me that if their finances ever did become available (as is the case with publicly-traded companies, which Apple is, and Valve is not), a lot of people would be looking at their profits and asking "Ok, and what the fuck are you doing just sitting on that massive pile of cash?"

fairwxfriend · Feb 25, 2021

FYI - Since it's a protective court order only Apple counsel is allowed to review this data to build their case. No one else at Apple is within the scope of the court order and is able to access that information.

Thera · Feb 25, 2021

So, basically, if you want competitor strategic data, you just have to make a "fake" trial with an other company. It's really dangerous.

DSoup · Feb 25, 2021

It seems crazy that one company suing a second, can result in that second company compelling a third party who are not involved to disclose confidential sales data for defence.

The Judge obviously felt it warranted but still.. :-/

Thera said:
So, basically, if you want competitor strategic data, you just have to make a "fake" trial with an other company. It's really dangerous.

No, a Judge ordered authorised (and limited) disclosure so any 'fake' trial should falter under sensible legal scrutiny.

Zaph · Feb 25, 2021

Linus815 said:
Lmao, there is no "sides" when apple literally forced valve to get into it despite saying they don't want to.

That's not how corporate litigation works. Epic is fundamentally challenging an established industry practice, and because there are no unions/guides/etc who codified the percentages, all the major players following the practice are going to get dragged in.

This is only against Apple because iOS is Epic's biggest potential revenue generator - its impossible for Epic to pursue this without it snowballing.

Paganmoon · Feb 25, 2021

Thera said:
So, basically, if you want competitor strategic data, you just have to make a "fake" trial with an other company. It's really dangerous.

This doesn't make sense.

apple are the defendents, and aren't in direct competition with valve anyway. unless you're saying apple got epic to sue them so they could get data from other companies? Which is like some 3D chess move...

Madjoki · Feb 25, 2021

Paganmoon said:
apple are the defendents, and aren't in direct competition with valve anyway.

Apple's argument was that they're Valve's direct competitor (which judge approved) and that's why they should get the data because it's important to show size of market.

Paganmoon · Feb 25, 2021

Madjoki said:
Apple's argument was that they're Valve's direct competitor (which judge approved) and that's why they should get the data because it's important to show size of market.

I mean what the poster says doesn't make sense since apple is the defendant in the case, as he makes it out to be apples plan all along.

edit: or I'm misreading something here.

Shard Shinjuku · Feb 25, 2021

Willing to bet all of the console makers will have gotten this or will get it at some point.

Aangster · Feb 25, 2021

Does Apple even disclose data like this as a publicly-listed company?

Pretty shameless of them.

Tobor · Feb 25, 2021

fairwxfriend said:
FYI - Since it's a protective court order only Apple counsel is allowed to review this data to build their case. No one else at Apple is within the scope of the court order and is able to access that information.

Exactly right.

chocnut · Feb 25, 2021

This is starting to look like a barfight.

Jade1962 · Feb 25, 2021

I don't get why some are worried about valve having to share sales data.

Also I'm always wary when corporations magically all land on the same price when selling goods.

BossAttack · Feb 25, 2021

Alexandros said:
Interesting, is there any chance that some of that data will be be made public?

No.

Tovarisc · Feb 25, 2021

Jade1962 said:
I don't get why some are worried about valve having to share sales data.

Also I'm always wary when corporations magically all land on the same price when selling goods.

Do you think that any store ever to sell movie or game is part of global price fixing racket?

Also it's pretty weird yeah that court is forcing non-party to share sensitive financial data directly to their competitor to go through in court case they never asked to be part of.

AHA-Lambda · Feb 25, 2021

On what grounds are Valve being forced to do this? Seems ridiculous

lupinko · Feb 25, 2021

Lol Tim Epic should give up already. He's not going to beat Tim Apple any time soon.

Xando · Feb 25, 2021

Zaph said:
Valve Ordered to Give Apple Information on 436 Steam Games As Part of Epic Games Legal Case

Valve, the makers behind popular game distribution platform Steam, will be forced to hand over aggregate historical sales, price, and other...

www.macrumors.com

Request largely granted, and going by the judge's comments there are more to come.

Epic must have known all platform holders would end up dragged into a lawsuit like this, there's so much at stake, so maybe they hoped Apple would have conceded by now?

Console manufactures will be next. As expected Apple will drag everyone into this as the wallet gardens are largely the same

Chief Malik · Feb 25, 2021

So why exactly does apple want to do this? What exactly will this prove to the court?

Deleted member 3208 · Feb 25, 2021

lupinko said:
Lol Tim Epic should give up already. He's not going to beat Tim Apple any time soon.

No way he will give up. He believes himself to be the messiah that will get rid of Apple and Valve monopoly or some shit like that. Dude is full of shit.

Fisty · Feb 25, 2021

Madjoki said:
Apple's argument was that they're Valve's direct competitor (which judge approved) and that's why they should get the data because it's important to show size of market.

I thought this was over the mobile market though, Valve doesn't have any presence there i thought. Seems pretty tangential

Red · Feb 25, 2021

ColdSun said:
Makes more sense to ignore any and all feelings about the individual companies involved, and look at the facts.

☝️

mutantmagnet · Feb 25, 2021

Madjoki said:
All games was Apple's original request, but they changed it to only 436 before asking judge to force it.
(It's games that were released on both Steam & Epic Games Store)

If that was made clear in the OP I think some people wouldn't have been surprised by this ruling. That said from the Macrumors article it sounds like the scope was bigger than that because the judge limited the number of years Apple could go back in their request.

.exe · Feb 25, 2021

The plot thickens and thickens.

Xando · Feb 25, 2021

Fisty said:
I thought this was over the mobile market though, Valve doesn't have any presence there i thought. Seems pretty tangential

There is no difference in wallet gardens. If apples wallet garden gets torn down consoles and PC stores will go down with them

mutantmagnet · Feb 25, 2021

Fisty said:
I thought this was over the mobile market though, Valve doesn't have any presence there i thought. Seems pretty tangential

That's inaccurate. Gaming is still gaming regardless of platform.

It was mentioned in the original report Apple submitted subpoenas for multiple parties (and from the way the judge commented on it they'll be granted those as well). Expect to hear the console makers to get dragged into this in a couple of weeks.

Deleted member 18324 · Feb 25, 2021

toy_brain said:
100% this.

Nobody should be cheerleading Valve's ability to hide potentially massive corporate profits.
I use Steam as much as everybody else here, but something tells me that if their finances ever did become available (as is the case with publicly-traded companies, which Apple is, and Valve is not), a lot of people would be looking at their profits and asking "Ok, and what the fuck are you doing just sitting on that massive pile of cash?"

Valve aren't "hiding" anything, the same way literally any other private company isn't "hiding" when they don't publish the sales data of their partners. Apple don't disclose what they're currently asking of Valve, publicly-traded or not.

Fisty · Feb 25, 2021

Xando said:
There is no difference in wallet gardens. If apples wallet garden gets torn down consoles and PC stores will go down with them

I thought the crux of Epic's complaint was that phones are general computing devices, as opposed to consoles. Also i was under the impression PC stores aren't walled gardens, I dont think they can be by definition

Chronos · Feb 25, 2021

mutantmagnet said:
If that was made clear in the OP I think some people wouldn't have been surprised by this ruling. That said from the Macrumors article it sounds like the scope was bigger than that because the judge limited the number of years Apple could go back in their request.

How does that clear anything up. Valve is a third party that has no stake in the case. Just because the scope was narrowed doesn't change the absurdity of them being forced to comply.

-Le Monde- · Feb 25, 2021

Well well we'll. How the turn
tables..

Madjoki · Feb 25, 2021

mutantmagnet said:
If that was made clear in the OP I think some people wouldn't have been surprised by this ruling. That said from the Macrumors article it sounds like the scope was bigger than that because the judge limited the number of years Apple could go back in their request.

It was originally all games in part 10 years, Apple narrowed it down to 436 over six years later and judge 436 over ~3 years. (start of 2017).

Apple narrowed its requests from all 30,000+ games on Steamover ten years, to 436 games over six years

Xando · Feb 25, 2021

Fisty said:
I thought the crux of Epic's complaint was that phones are general computing devices, as opposed to consoles. Also i was under the impression PC stores aren't walled gardens, I dont think they can be by definition

Epics basic argument is that paying the cut to the store holder is anti competitive behavior if there is no way to use a store without paying that cut. That applies to almost every kind of store in the digital world.

The whole general computing device vs gaming device argument is bs and has been shutdown by the previous judge.

kmfdmpig · Feb 25, 2021

Xando said:
There is no difference in wallet gardens. If apples wallet garden gets torn down consoles and PC stores will go down with them

I agree that if Apple's 30% is broken by the courts then that would certainly effect all PC walled gardens. I could see an argument that consoles could be exempt from that as they are more specialized devices whereas PCs and phones are more general computing devices.

Edit: I see you addressed this above.

Apple is asking Valve to provide huge amount of sales data to fight Epic; Valve refuses [up: Valve forced to comply, see threadmark]

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