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DealWithIt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,690
Breach of contract is breach of breach contract. It doesn't take a judge to determine whether epic acted outside of their contract (Epic themselves admitted as much but says it doesn't matter)
It doesn't take a judge? Is that because you think they should arbitrate? Who do you think gets to interpret the contract? Have you read the contract? Do you have experience reading contracts like these?

In my experience non-lawyers always think a few things:

1. the law is on their side
2. They understand the law very well
3. other people don't understand the law.
4. someone is always clearly right and the other person is always clearly wrong.

In my experience these beliefs are almost always misguided. With respect, I think you are falling into these traps as well.
 
Last edited:

SJurgenson

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,239
It's good then that we have an objective measure of how much effort they put into their app store: their margins. it's simply the fact that whatever resources they put into maintaining the store is but a drop in the ocean compared to their revenue, and so that's how much weight should be given to their contributions.

Margins only cover the difference between income and day-to-day operational costs -- they don't cover things like the costs to initially develop the system, or other side-costs.

I don't know what a fair cut is -- perhaps an argument could be reasonably made that 30% is fair -- as, posted above, 80% of App Store apps are free (and thus are not making Apple money) -- but in this situation, debating what percentage is fair is somewhat besides the point.

There's nothing illegal about charging any particular amount of money more than your actual costs -- unless you are a monopoly, which Apple isn't by any standard legal definition of the term.

AT&T was a monopoly until their breakup because (except in limited circumstances/markets) there was no competitor for telephone service.

If you don't want to give Apple money, but want a cellphone? You can buy from Microsoft, Samsung, Huawei, etc. They are not a monopoly.

Should there be some regulations on the costs that digital storefronts charge consumers and developers? Absolutely. But their aren't any -- and Epic just wants a free ride.
 

Sol Mori

Member
Jun 10, 2018
221
he is probably one of those people who think TOS has the same standing as the law.

Both of you do realize that Epic does not dispute that they broke their contract with Apple? Their entire lawsuit is claiming that the contract itself is an illegal abuse of a monopoly. This isn't lul EULA/ToS not hold up on court.

If Epic loses and Apple/Google aren't declared has having the monopolies Epic claims they do, they will lose on the breach of contract. This assume the lawsuits ever get decided upon by the judge and not settled out of court.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,125
Sydney
80% of iOS apps are free and they still receive the full benefits of Apple's tools, hosting and support. Apple doesn't make a dime off these apps.

Apple's filings make this point actually in part of a larger argument that the App Store isn't just a payment processor (which Epic argues) but a curation and quality control tool.

You can see where they are going with that argument, the App Store is an integral part of the value of the iPhone as a product and as such the 30% revenue share isn't artificially high.
 

Armoredgoomba

Member
Jun 17, 2018
1,094
It doesn't take a judge? Is that because you think they should arbitrate? Who do you think gets to interpret the contract? Have you read the contract? Do you have experience reading contracts like these?

In my experience non-lawyers always think a few things:

1. the law is on their side
2. They understand the law very well
3. other people don't understand the law.
4. someone is always clearly right and the other person is always clearly wrong.

In my experience these beliefs are almost always misguided. With respect, I think you are falling into these traps as well.
This video goes over all the current case information pretty well (and this guy doing the video actually IS a lawyer). Epic hid an update to bypass the IAP. They lied to apple and broke the contract. That's not really defensible. Open and shut in that regard. I don't really have complete thoughts on the overall case but this counter-sue has merit.

www.youtube.com

Apple Sues Back! "Epic Undertook its Conduct with Malice and Fraud" (VL310)

Phase 2 of the "Epic vs Apple Legal Universe" continues with Apple's own dose of fiery rhetoric, not only in defending against Epic's complaint, but also in ...
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,125
Sydney
Yeah the contention isn't whether or not Epic broke the agreement it's if the agreement is enforceable or not. This was covered in the TRO.

Obviously Epic is saying Apple is violating antitrust law so it isn't, and Apple is saying it's not violating the law so it is.
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
The point I keep seeing about "users should be able to run whatever software they want on their devices" would be completely irrelevant if it was legal to jailbreak your iPhone to install whatever you want on it.

Which it is. Since 2012.

The thing is that Epic doesn't want to just let you side-load the game, or even a potential 3rd-party "iOS EGS" store. They want full use of the platform Apple has built up, with all of its benefits, for none of the cost. Like they did with EGS and using all the good things Steam and GOG have done for PC gaming, for their own profit. That's not something that should be championed, and it's a ridiculous notion to defend. Whatever perceived monopoly Apple may be, and however much you may dislike them for what they do, Epic is in no way in the right here.
 

TechnicPuppet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,830
The point I keep seeing about "users should be able to run whatever software they want on their devices" would be completely irrelevant if it was legal to jailbreak your iPhone to install whatever you want on it.

Which it is. Since 2012.

The thing is that Epic doesn't want to just let you side-load the game, or even a potential 3rd-party "iOS EGS" store. They want full use of the platform Apple has built up, with all of its benefits, for none of the cost. Like they did with EGS and using all the good things Steam and GOG have done for PC gaming, for their own profit. That's not something that should be championed, and it's a ridiculous notion to defend. Whatever perceived monopoly Apple may be, and however much you may dislike them for what they do, Epic is in no way in the right here.

I don't care who's in the right or wrong. I just want Apple to get fucked by the courts and regulators to my benefit.
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
I don't care who's in the right or wrong. I just want Apple to get fucked by the courts and regulators to my benefit.
I feel like that's short-sighted. Apple losing the fight here could lead to widespread financial damage for all kinds of platform-holders, which would translate to far worse conditions for everyone involved, consumers included. All for the sake of Epic's greed and superiority complex.
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,809
Go to any of the threads about this. The overwhelming consensus is "fuck Epic" regardless of the bigger picture. You can't have a reasonable conversation about it here, which is a huge shame because I don't have irl friends who care about this kind of stuff, nor do I participate in any other gaming communities. The bias against Epic is WAY too strong to even consider having a reasonable conversation.

I would be interested in having a reasonable conversation if you are willing to try it with me. Quote this post with an opening argument and we'll go from there.

Many people on the forum are undoubtedly hostile towards Epic, you are right about that. You'd think that a videogame forum with little to no interest in mobile games would be sympathetic towards a traditional game company that works closely with console makers. I think the main reasons for that phenomenon is that Tim Sweeney a) is pushing the importance of open platforms to people who appreciate the controlled walled garden experience (console fans, Apple fans) and b) has spent the last couple of years pissing off the group that would be more likely to support him (PC fans).

The end result is that Tim Sweeney's rhetoric is falling on deaf ears. He says "walled gardens should open up and allow EGS!" and console fans think "no, I don't want that". He says "we need more competition!" and PC fans think "no thanks, I've seen what your competition looks like". For this, Tim Sweeney has no one to blame but himself.
 

MBABuddha

Banned
Dec 10, 2019
490
I don't want to root for either company in this but this is seems to be becoming as lopsided in Apple's favor as a Judge Judy episode:
Judy: What are you accusing the defendant of?
Plaintiff: He hasn't paid his rent in 6 months
Judy to Defendant: Is this true? Why didn't you pay your rent?
Defendant: Well your honor, the plaintiff's been going all over town saying my sister's cousin in a loser, and one time he yelled at my dog, and he said that he would repaint the fence last summer but he didn't, and...
 

TechnicPuppet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,830
I feel like that's short-sighted. Apple losing the fight here could lead to widespread financial damage for all kinds of platform-holders, which would translate to far worse conditions for everyone involved, consumers included. All for the sake of Epic's greed and superiority complex.

No it wouldn't. The EU would definitely be able to distinguish between general purpose computing devices billions have in their pockets and consoles etc.

They are simply not the same thing that is not how antitrust works.
 

crimilde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,004
Yeah I was surprised to learn in Hoeg's vid that the millions of Fornite apps currently installed on iOS only have a direct payment option going straight to Epic.

Apple's IAP button has been completely removed and the app is still able to make Vbuck transactions through Epic.

Can anyone with the game installed on Apple iOS confirm this?

Apple say as much in the counter-claim filing.

090-F510-D-F56-C-4448-A725-484-A0-F5-DD8-C0.jpg


5-ED15-C66-12-B7-4539-B6-A4-DB30-BD8040-D5.jpg


It's available on the first page of this thread and is an interesting read.
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
No it wouldn't. The EU would definitely be able to distinguish between general purpose computing devices billions have in their pockets and consoles etc.

They are simply not the same thing that is not how antitrust works.
That, is not the point. The point is that Epic want Apple to lower or remove their service cut, the 30% everyone gets hung up on. They're challenging the fee the industry takes for services, a fee many businesses rely on. By getting one over on Apple, if they succeed, they want to get the ball rolling to every other platform, whether or not a perceived monopoly exists there.

On the immediate surface of it, it seems like it could lead to improvements, with more of the money going towards developers, but if you look any deeper you'll see that damaging the bottom line of platform holders will end up leading to a worse experience for everybody, both developers and consumers, because everybody uses those intermediary services and the money to run and develop them has to come from somewhere. In the end, the only beneficiary of this development would be Epic Games themselves, who want to run their own store, and stand to benefit the most from lowered service cuts as the publishers of the single most widely profitable game product in the industry.
 

TechnicPuppet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,830
Consoles have web browsers and streaming apps, probably covering 80% of what people do on their phone.

It's irrelevant it's not 90% of the time people spend on their console. Also remember console owners have been fair. They don't demand 30% of Netflix do they, you can just sign in.

It's a separate market anyway, they will be looking at this market, mobile computing devices.
 

DealWithIt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,690
This video goes over all the current case information pretty well (and this guy doing the video actually IS a lawyer). Epic hid an update to bypass the IAP. They lied to apple and broke the contract. That's not really defensible. Open and shut in that regard. I don't really have complete thoughts on the overall case but this counter-sue has merit.

www.youtube.com

Apple Sues Back! "Epic Undertook its Conduct with Malice and Fraud" (VL310)

Phase 2 of the "Epic vs Apple Legal Universe" continues with Apple's own dose of fiery rhetoric, not only in defending against Epic's complaint, but also in ...
Listen, I actually am a lawyer and your self-assurance is misplaced. Epic has serious, well-respected anti-trust counsel who would not and did not file an "open-and-shut" antitrust case. They might not win, but the fact that you think this is easy tells me that you know a lot less than you think you do.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,773
No it wouldn't. The EU would definitely be able to distinguish between general purpose computing devices billions have in their pockets and consoles etc.

They are simply not the same thing that is not how antitrust works.
What does being a general purpose device have to do with whether this is an antitrust case? Or Epic wanting to use Apple's store without paying any fees? And this case is in the US, so what does the EU have to do with anything?

It's irrelevant it's not 90% of the time people spend on their console. Also remember console owners have been fair. They don't demand 30% of Netflix do they, you can just sign in.

It's a separate market anyway, they will be looking at this market, mobile computing devices.
Console makers do demand 30% of any sales made on their platform. They certainly get the same cut of sales from Fortnite as Apple . And I can sign into Netflix on my iPhone just fine without having to pay for my account through my iPhone.
 

sirap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,210
South East Asia
That was a pretty robust counter-claim. Apple threw everything but the kitchen sink into that thing.

Sweeney's been suspiciously quiet for the past week. I kinda miss his Trump-like meltdowns lol.
 

mentok15

Member
Dec 20, 2017
7,302
Australia
It's irrelevant it's not 90% of the time people spend on their console. Also remember console owners have been fair. They don't demand 30% of Netflix do they, you can just sign in.

It's a separate market anyway, they will be looking at this market, mobile computing devices.
Consoles are relevant to this discussion though. They all have a walled garden and take a 30% cut. And I can sign into Netflix fine on my iPhone.
 

Tomeru

Member
May 7, 2018
673
User Banned (3 days): Drive-by trolling
Amazing how a digital store that every pc owner haccess to easily can bring about hate from gamers. This is truely a psychlogical case for the ages.

Gamers.
 

hanmik

Editor/Writer at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
1,436
Could someone please explain to me what Apple is doing to "earn" money, on in-app purchases from a game like Fortnite on iOs?
 

DeadlyVenom

Member
Apr 3, 2018
2,775
Amazing how people's distaste for Apple can make Epic the good guy in all of this.

I hate Apple. I hate Apple products. I do not enjoy their direction in hardware or software.

I just don't buy their products. At no point have I ever though, "Hey, I hope the court finds their (and basically the entire digital marketplace's) business model illegal."

Epic is so clearly a bad actor in all of this I can't help but side with Apple. They could have made their (flimsy) case without all the theatrics and contract breaching, but that wouldn't have made for an effective marketing campaign. So all they have done is made a poor case and acted like an asshole while doing it. Just opening themselves up to even further harm and jeopardizing their Unreal Engine partners on iOS.

Epic suggesting that Apple charge per download is laughable too, as that is clearly just a strategy that benefits large companies such as them with apps that make tons of in app purchase money and fucks over anyone developing free apps with no payment options.
 

MaLDo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,404
Could someone please explain to me what Apple is doing to "earn" money, on in-app purchases from a game like Fortnite on iOs?


1. develop a closed and secure device/platform that so many people want to buy
2. Allow to distribute your application to the users of their device
 

crimilde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,004
Could someone please explain to me what Apple is doing to "earn" money, on in-app purchases from a game like Fortnite on iOs?

They provide APIs, SDKs, robust documentation, marketing and promotion, reviews and approvals for app submissions, and customer support. Just like any other platform holder with a storefront that takes a cut from sales (Google, MS, Sony, etc).
 

mentok15

Member
Dec 20, 2017
7,302
Australia
Could someone please explain to me what Apple is doing to "earn" money, on in-app purchases from a game like Fortnite on iOs?

Developed the device, software, and SDKs used to make the games. Provides the App Store. Built up the market to sell the games too. If Epic didn't like Apples system they didn't have to release Fortnite for iOS.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
Listen, I actually am a lawyer and your self-assurance is misplaced. Epic has serious, well-respected anti-trust counsel who would not and did not file an "open-and-shut" antitrust case. They might not win, but the fact that you think this is easy tells me that you know a lot less than you think you do.

And crytek hired Skadden and had their entire case thrown out.

people who only focus on who was hired (especially when both sides can and will afford the best representation Money can buy) are showing they don't have a legal argument.

especially in this specific part of the case in the OP about breach of contract. Especially when Epic has admitted to it.
 

DealWithIt

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,690
And crytek hired Skadden and had their entire case thrown out.

people who only focus on who was hired (especially when both sides can and will afford the best representation Money can buy) are showing they don't have a legal argument.

especially in this specific part of the case in the OP about breach of contract. Especially when Epic has admitted to it.
Losing is not the same thing as not having a case.
 

hanmik

Editor/Writer at Popaco.dk
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
1,436
1. develop a closed and secure device/platform that so many people want to buy
2. Allow to distribute your application to the users of their device
They provide APIs, SDKs, robust documentation, marketing and promotion, reviews and approvals for app submissions, and customer support. Just like any other platform holder with a storefront that takes a cut from sales (Google, MS, Sony, etc).
Developed the device, software, and SDKs used to make the games. Provides the App Store. Built up the market to sell the games too. If Epic didn't like Apples system they didn't have to release Fortnite for iOS.

Thanks for the answer..

So they basically made $257,000,000 in commission fees the last two years from Fortnite in app purchases, by allowing the game to be downloaded from the app store?
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,587
Thanks for the answer..

So they basically made $257,000,000 in commission fees the last two years from Fortnite in app purchases, by allowing the game to be downloaded from the app store?

And tnx to that millions of other free apps got same support without earning Apple 0$.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,901
Losing is not the same thing as not having a case.

Have you actually read the Crytek case? It was some of the most terrible lawyering I have seen.
Including trying to claim that normal contract law uses 'give exclusive use' in a license agreement means one party is forced to exclusively use product being licensed out in perpetuity.
While at the same time refusing to provide a full copy of said licensing agreement to the court.
 

Sean Mirrsen

Banned
May 9, 2018
1,159
Could someone please explain to me what Apple is doing to "earn" money, on in-app purchases from a game like Fortnite on iOs?
Basically, developing themselves into a platform. Like, the government of some given nation might not actually be "doing" much to earn their taxes, especially if things keep running well, but they kind of earned that position by setting things up for everyone. And without taxes the government can't do anything, and that's where you get issues.

Same principle applies to platforms. Apple made their platform, Sony made theirs, Nintendo made theirs, Microsoft made theirs, Valve made theirs. The talk of "they aren't doing anything to earn their share" is ridiculous because you want to use their platforms, and it's because they made them, invested their money and efforts into them over time. If you want to challenge that notion, you have to start challenging inherent established value across the board, starting with "what does the owner of that patch of land by the seaside do to ask for so much money for the land over anyone else".
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,125
Sydney
No it wouldn't. The EU would definitely be able to distinguish between general purpose computing devices billions have in their pockets and consoles etc.

They are simply not the same thing that is not how antitrust works.

The notion here that both the EU and US courts are going to hold there is a substantive difference in terms of antitrust between smartphones and consoles, especially when they being drawn in on a question of the exact same product (Fortnite) is honestly incredibly cavalier.

If the courts find it's an antitrust violation to enforce a 30% revenue split on the same software in situations where you manufacture a device and then have a monopoly on digital software distribution, that is incredibly likely to have an impact beyond iOS.

If Epic wins their case on its merits, this could have very far reaching consequences.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,972
Canada
Amazing how a digital store that every pc owner haccess to easily can bring about hate from gamers. This is truely a psychlogical case for the ages.

Gamers.
Yeah sure thats exactly why people are making fun of Epic. Not because they're fucking over millions of users and blaming it on Apple or anything. Or comparing digital store cuts to 1984, or using children as ammunition to help them win a legal case,
 

DeadlyVenom

Member
Apr 3, 2018
2,775
Thanks for the answer..

So they basically made $257,000,000 in commission fees the last two years from Fortnite in app purchases, by allowing the game to be downloaded from the app store?

By building and maintaining the hardware platform, infrastructure, development landscape, and it's customer base for Epic to benefit from...Yes?

We can talk about how much Apple "deserves" I guess, because I feel that Apple or anyone that builds and maintains a marketplace/platform is owed *something* from those that benefit off it. However, that isn't what Epic is suing for, they want that number to be 0% because they claim the iOS App Store is an "essential facility" which I think is silly.
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,935
Yeah sure thats exactly why people are making fun of Epic. Not because they're fucking over millions of users and blaming it on Apple or anything. Or comparing digital store cuts to 1984, or using children as ammunition to help them win a legal case,

And the creme de la creme-
Having an animated movie ready to be released at the push of a button - knowing you've snuck backdoor code into your app- the minute the ruse is discovered, so that they can play the victim.
 

crimilde

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,004
Thanks for the answer..

So they basically made $257,000,000 in commission fees the last two years from Fortnite in app purchases, by allowing the game to be downloaded from the app store?

So you open up a restaurant, right? You have a lot of chefs that you trained, and the menu is varied. Everything is going well, then one day one of your chefs wants to open up their own restaurant inside yours, sell the stuff they previously prepared in your menu, use your ovens and tables and servers, and not pay you any rent.

Does that sound like common sense?
 

SirKai

Member
Dec 28, 2017
7,375
Washington
Another thing to note is that Apple has apparently done a fuckton of pro bono advertising for Fortnite/Epic. The special/priority feature placement in the App Store that Fortnite gets (usually when new seasons begin) isn't paid. Yes, Apple does that because that Fortnite attention makes them money, but it makes Epic even more money.
 
Oct 30, 2017
1,931
The only good outcome of this is that Anti-Trust regulators in countries will look at this and say to Apple/Google that you can no longer have a walled garden.

Epic probably won't win but it's boost the public profile of these stores to the relevant people
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,809
Amazing how a digital store that every pc owner haccess to easily can bring about hate from gamers. This is truely a psychlogical case for the ages.

Gamers.

Do you include Tim Sweeney in these gamers? Because Epic fielded a very strong argument against the "just another launcher" argument in the legal papers it filed against Apple.
 

dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,587
The only good outcome of this is that Anti-Trust regulators in countries will look at this and say to Apple/Google that you can no longer have a walled garden.

Epic probably won't win but it's boost the public profile of these stores to the relevant people

And that is not good outcome for some. Some people like walled gardens.