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Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
But the case is about the App Store and not the internet or phone access.

But it is a general computing device. In Europe, where they actually care about consumer rights, apple is under investigation for these absolutely insane 30% mandatory store fees because it limits consumer options and adds unnecessary expense.

Also I'm not advocating Epic or that they are innocent here. They are making a valid claim, but selfishly. They would totally do the same thing.
 

XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,578
Not allow crappy apps they don't want. It's their storefront that they built, they can choose what goes on the digital shelf. Issue is you can miss out on a lot of money doing so, so I understand why they have an "open the floodgates" approach.
But why should they be the ones deciding whether an app constitutes as crap or useful?

I think it's unreasonable to expect them to verify and test all apps that are published; including each and every update since these can potentially make or break any app these days. It's simply an impossible task -- but even if it wasn't there wouldn't be much to gain either way. They should establish a baseline security net and stop apps that are breaking any rules or law, or apps that are morally questionable, but that's about it.

(I'm not saying they are doing a good or a bad job in that area, but that's the role they ideally should uphold)
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,751
But it is a general computing device. In Europe, where they actually care about consumer rights, apple is under investigation for these absolutely insane 30% mandatory store fees because it limits consumer options and adds unnecessary expense.
It is the same fee nearly every store charges - both digital and physical stores like Sony, Nintendo, Best Buy, etc. There is nothing predatory, unusual or monopolistic about Apple's fees. You can argue it's too high, but they're in no way unique and Epic pays them to every other store it deals with.
 

piratethingy

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,428
First page comment saying "fuck Apple" gets warned.

First page comment saying "fuck epic" doesn't.

Perfect summation of this forum's biases.
 

Aaron D.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,310
what epic is arguing is that they do not need to pay rent to a building that apple built and services and that apple is not allowed to evict epic when they willfully breach contract by sub renting its apartment, and then argue that apple should allow epic to hijack the building to do its own renting business without them having to pay apple anything for use of the building.

This is not about apples evil, nor its about epics "goodness" its about that specific case and you can totally agree that apple has a foot to stand on in this fight, while still think they are a shitty company.

This is why the, "F both companies." rhetoric really makes me roll my eyes. It comes of as lazy critique with no teeth where the person can't even be bothered to follow the case and arguments being laid out. Nothing more than an angry Hot Topic teen shouting, "F The Man!"

It's possible to recognize Apple's general digressions as a company while at the same time considering the flimsy nature of Epic's self-serving lawsuit. As well as the far-reaching consequences of those self-serving goals (console economic models will be compromised).

Pick a side. That's fine. But cripes at least be informed about what you're shouting against beyond hot-air bluster.


People who cheer for apple in this are like poor people voting for Republicans. Whatever you think of epic, apple and co's control over these markets is anti competitive and unreasonable.

Bernie bros for trickle down Applenomics is a popular combo here.

Please don't do this. It's cringe as hell.

If you have a thoughtful argument make it. Don't take cheap political shots at those you disagree with.
 

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
It is the same fee nearly every store charges - both digital and physical stores like Sony, Nintendo, Best Buy, etc. There is nothing predatory, unusual or monopolistic about Apple's fees. You can argue it's too high, but they're in no way unique and Epic pays them to every other store it deals with.
additionally epic doesn't argue is should be lower, epic argues that there should be none.

Again epic on purpose argues on false pretenses that the app store is just a transaction processing app, just like it argues steam is just a launcher, and absolutely ignores that the app store is part of a full closed platform with its own unique computing device OS and platform, and that steam is far more than just a launcher which provides free of charge various services to its customers, both consumers and developers enjoy without restriction.

You might not use these features or find them necessary for you, but you are free to buy your software from say EGS where you get that bare bones "only a launcher" experience, and there is nothing wrong with that choice. Except epic takes any opportunity to do a smear campaign in order to make themselves look better and get customers for its own benefit.

Epic is def not in it for the better of mankind, its in it for their own wallets and don't let them tell you otherwise.
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
It is the same fee nearly every store charges - both digital and physical stores like Sony, Nintendo, Best Buy, etc. There is nothing predatory, unusual or monopolistic about Apple's fees. You can argue it's too high, but they're in no way unique and Epic pays them to every other store it deals with.

Physical stores are fine because they have employees, rent, utilities and taxes that are inextricable from each location. Cloudbursting store infrastructure has no employees after some initial devops infrastructure is coded. It bursts on activity. No taxes, no employees. Just giving money to Apple because reasons. Same is true for all digital stores. Steam does a little more to earn it but I think it's too much as well.

Why do you think Apple, Google, etc are entitled to this money? They are swimming in cash. I'm a developer, I don't think you all realize how incredibly cheap it is to scale. Netflix will intentionally brick one of their major data centers to test how well it automatically recovers. Software is going to become ubiquitous with everything, the idea that 1 company just takes 30% is an astoundingly horrible idea.

Has anyone considered that physical stores work on a percentage because they can't cost remove certain expenses like salary, taxes, utilities and rent? Instead think of it as a utility where a store front should operate based on usage, eg data used for downloads, updates, and advertising in charts, and that operational expense should be the baseline charge rate with a 10% profit margin permitted. Apple and Google would hate this because they wouldn't get hundreds of billions of free cash over years. This model could have incentives where cost reduction via innovation can be added to the 10% margin - regulated capitalism keeps competition innovating so that both businesses and consumers benefit.
 

foxdvd

Member
Oct 30, 2017
334
First page comment saying "fuck Apple" gets warned.

First page comment saying "fuck epic" doesn't.

Perfect summation of this forum's biases.
I thought you might have been wrong at first..but you are right. My guess is that someone reported the one that was warned and not the other...

One thing that bothers me in this argument when people say they don't care about Apple or Epic, and that they don't care who wins...the ramifications of this ruling is going to have long term effects on all levels of business from the large corporations that look at users as cattle to the smaller companies that really care about their product and customer. This is a major deal, even if you hate both companies and the lawyers who are going to continue to get rich off of this.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,096
Sydney
Ok having read the filing now, Apple isn't alleging theft (bad reporting honesty) but damages for using their App Store and cutting them out.

I'm guessing they've had a chance to review exactly what Epic did to Fortnite now and are going to be able to show how they deliberately cut Apple off from any revenue surreptitiously.
 

Mik2121

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,941
Japan

EVIL

Senior Concept Artist
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
2,782
I thought you might have been wrong at first..but you are right. My guess is that someone reported the one that was warned and not the other...

One thing that bothers me in this argument when people say they don't care about Apple or Epic, and that they don't care who wins...the ramifications of this ruling is going to have long term effects on all levels of business from the large corporations that look at users as cattle to the smaller companies that really care about their product and customer. This is a major deal, even if you hate both companies and the lawyers who are going to continue to get rich off of this.
yeah this has ramifications that touch a whole lot more than just epic and apple. It could mean serious changes for any other console, online service in existence beyond apps and games.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,096
Sydney
yeah this has ramifications that touch a whole lot more than just epic and apple. It could mean serious changes for any other console, online service in existence beyond apps and games.

This has been pointed out in several threads and the usual response is to try to seperate phones and consoles into essential and non-essential markets, even though the Sherman Act applies to both types of market.
 

the_id

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,144
This is like watching two Capitalists fighting each other. One is a giant and the other is an ant.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
additionally epic doesn't argue is should be lower, epic argues that there should be none.

Again epic on purpose argues on false pretenses that the app store is just a transaction processing app, just like it argues steam is just a launcher, and absolutely ignores that the app store is part of a full closed platform with its own unique computing device OS and platform, and that steam is far more than just a launcher which provides free of charge various services to its customers, both consumers and developers enjoy without restriction.

You might not use these features or find them necessary for you, but you are free to buy your software from say EGS where you get that bare bones "only a launcher" experience, and there is nothing wrong with that choice. Except epic takes any opportunity to do a smear campaign in order to make themselves look better and get customers for its own benefit.

Epic is def not in it for the better of mankind, its in it for their own wallets and don't let them tell you otherwise.
It's really mindboggling how anyone thinks they can benefit off of someone else's platform for free or thinks they can just make up their own rules. Hate Apple all you want (not you, hypothetically) but they gained that marketshare for a reason.
 
Jun 20, 2019
2,638
It must be wearying to work to build and maintain the Epic Games Store when you know the CEO thinks your contribution is worth literally nothing.
 

Arebours

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
Apple states in their counterclaim that Epic offers Fortnite on six different digital platforms. What control, exactly, does Apple have over Epic beyond normal business dealings?
it's about their control of the entire iphone app market, not just epic.
it's like having a city with a population of 1 billion but only a single company running all the stores. people here are ok with that here because they like apple and dislike epic. just like MS is a good company now because people like phil.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,751
Physical stores are fine because they have employees, rent, utilities and taxes that are inextricable from each location. Cloudbursting store infrastructure has no employees after some initial devops infrastructure is coded. It bursts on activity. No taxes, no employees. Just giving money to Apple because reasons. Same is true for all digital stores. Steam does a little more to earn it but I think it's too much as well.

Why do you think Apple, Google, etc are entitled to this money? They are swimming in cash. I'm a developer, I don't think you all realize how incredibly cheap it is to scale. Netflix will intentionally brick one of their major data centers to test how well it automatically recovers. Software is going to become ubiquitous with everything, the idea that 1 company just takes 30% is an astoundingly horrible idea.

Has anyone considered that physical stores work on a percentage because they can't cost remove certain expenses like salary, taxes, utilities and rent? Instead think of it as a utility where a store front should operate based on usage, eg data used for downloads, updates, and advertising in charts, and that operational expense should be the baseline charge rate with a 10% profit margin permitted. Apple and Google would hate this because they wouldn't get hundreds of billions of free cash over years. This model could have incentives where cost reduction via innovation can be added to the 10% margin - regulated capitalism keeps competition innovating so that both businesses and consumers benefit.
You're all over the place. You started by arguing that this won't affect consoles because they're not essential. Then you pivoted to 30% being too high! Now you're saying well it might be the norm but they don't really deserve it.
And this manpower argument holds no water. They have a review process which requires people. They provide constantly updated APIs which requires more people. And if you don't think that's enough to offset the difference between them and a store, a store doesn't sell millions of products for free. The App Store has literally millions of free apps which require people to review despite making nothing for them.
And to top it all off, none of this has to do with what Epic is actually asking for! There seems to be a constant trend from posters who come in with "fuck Apple" where they don't actually bother looking at what Epic is arguing and instead just argue their own completely separate issues with Apple.
I'm a developer too! So I guess that means my opinion is automatically right? ....or something?
 

bxsonic

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,224
I think what's interesting is that Fortnite has earned over $600 million on iOS alone. That's a lot of money. I wonder what percentage of Fortnite's revenue is from iOS.

Also interesting to me that Apple has had to process contested IAP of $500 million per year. That's a lot of potentially fraudulent and also contested IAP to process every year.
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,380
Watching the Hoeg Law video, it seems like after the initial hullabaloo, Epic not only did keep their side payment option available on fortnite, they also fully removed Apple payments as an option at all. That is something that courts are very unlikely to look kindly upon. At that point it becomes clear Epic's arguments regarding free and open platforms are bullshit, and they're just trying to enrich themselves. Hoeg also thinks that this is a potentially fatal mistake.
 

KtSlime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Tokyo
it's about their control of the entire iphone app market, not just epic.
it's like having a city with a population of 1 billion but only a single company running all the stores. people here are ok with that here because they like apple and dislike epic. just like MS is a good company now because people like phil.

It's also a city that you chose to move to and no one is stopping you from leaving when you get tired of going to the same shop.
 

sandyph

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,039
Physical stores are fine because they have employees, rent, utilities and taxes that are inextricable from each location. Cloudbursting store infrastructure has no employees after some initial devops infrastructure is coded. It bursts on activity. No taxes, no employees. Just giving money to Apple because reasons. Same is true for all digital stores. Steam does a little more to earn it but I think it's too much as well.

I should tell my management to stop paying for AWS and just create our own cloud because apparently we don't need to spend on any employee to maintain it
 
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Aaron D.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,310
Watching the Hoeg Law video, it seems like after the initial hullabaloo, Epic not only did keep their side payment option available on fortnite, they also fully removed Apple payments as an option at all. That is something that courts are very unlikely to look kindly upon. At that point it becomes clear Epic's arguments regarding free and open platforms are bullshit, and they're just trying to enrich themselves. Hoeg also thinks that this is a potentially fatal mistake.

Yeah I was surprised to learn in Hoeg's vid that the millions of Fornite apps currently installed on iOS only have a direct payment option going straight to Epic.

Apple's IAP button has been completely removed and the app is still able to make Vbuck transactions through Epic.

Can anyone with the game installed on Apple iOS confirm this?
 

Dalek

Member
Oct 25, 2017
38,902
I should tell my management to stop paying for AWS and just create our own cloud since we don't need to spend on any employee to maintain it

AWS is after all very successful so they don't deserve the money.

/s just in case because this thread is full of bad faith actors so it's hard to tell who is serious.
 

Arebours

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
It's also a city that you chose to move to and no one is stopping you from leaving when you get tired of going to the same shop.
Sure, where the only other city is owned by another single company, and where leaving and setting up in the other city has a high opportunity cost and you aren't allowed to take any of your stuff with you.

Smartphones are a near necessity for practical life in modern society. Banking, buying buss tickets, signing up for my drivers license test, social media and so on. It's not just something people can choose not to participate in.

It's fucking crazy that people here are ok with two companies owning and having complete control over the entire market of something as ubiquitous as smartphone software. For all the capitalism hate I see on here era sure seems to love their mega corps.
 
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daegan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,897
I thought you might have been wrong at first..but you are right. My guess is that someone reported the one that was warned and not the other...

One thing that bothers me in this argument when people say they don't care about Apple or Epic, and that they don't care who wins...the ramifications of this ruling is going to have long term effects on all levels of business from the large corporations that look at users as cattle to the smaller companies that really care about their product and customer. This is a major deal, even if you hate both companies and the lawyers who are going to continue to get rich off of this.
*User Warned: Low-effort drive-by post.*


*nothing*

Who's on the wrong and who's on the right aside (and as much as I love Unreal Engine, I know Epic handled this very badly), this is peak Resetera low-effort admin work.

Anyway, hope Epic gets their stuff together for this issue. They didn't need to handle the situation the way they did.
FWIW I don't believe there's any conspiracy at work here - I reported one and didn't see the other at the time (but have reported it since so maybe it gets actioned, maybe not, who knows, but it probably should be)
 

sandyph

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,039
Sure, where the only other city is owned by another single company, and where leaving and setting up in the other city has a high opportunity cost and you aren't allowed to take any of your stuff with you.

it sounds like building those city is a hard job. wondered whether people need to be compensated for all their effort in making one
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
AWS is after all very successful so they don't deserve the money.

/s just in case because this thread is full of bad faith actors so it's hard to tell who is serious.

The automated cloudbursting compute cost of store fronts is fractions of pennies on the dollar.

AWS and Azure itself are monetized properly by usage as a utility with modest profit margins and they compete with each other. Businesses require compute one way or another and on premise makes a lot of sense for 24/7/365 utilization but is way more expensive than cloudbursting for hardware only needed a fraction of the time per day or year. All of the space needed in the data center, power, aging computer parts.

The 30% software store is not monetized like this and these companies are getting away with highway robbery. It amazes me that people keep defending it.

If AWS and Azure demanded a cut of revenue of applications because they happened to be hosted on their platform, I'd also raise hell because it's equally ridiculous. The staffing to create platform tooling is there too but it's built into utility style monetization and not revenue because that's insane.

To someone else saying that an employee reviews the software, yeah sure for 1 app globally. Completely missed the point that physical retail doesn't scale like this. Each store has massive expenses per location including staff. You want to sell a game, there has to be staffing at every location not just 1.
 
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SJurgenson

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,239
The automated cloudbursting compute cost of store fronts is fractions of pennies on the dollar.

AWS and Azure itself are monetized properly by usage as a utility with modest profit margins and they compete with each other. Businesses require compute one way or another and on premise makes a lot of sense for 24/7/365 utilization but is way more expensive than cloudbursting for hardware only needed a fraction of the time per day or year. All of the space needed in the data center, no power, aging computer parts.

The 30% software store is not monetized like this and these companies are getting away with highway robbery. It amazes me that people keep defending it.

To someone else saying that an employee reviews the software, yeah sure for 1 app globally. Completely missed the point that physical retail doesn't scale like this. Each store has massive expenses per location including staff. You want to sell a game, there has to be staffing at every location not just 1.

Apple employees hundreds if not thousands of employees in developing, maintaining, and managing the App Store.

Clouds are not magic -- there is a lot of money, time, and effort put in by cloud operators in building them and keeping them online. The same applies to digital storefronts.

Just because something looks simple on the outside, that doesn't mean it's simple on the inside -- and worth no compensation.
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
Apple employees hundreds if not thousands of employees in developing, maintaining, and managing the App Store.

Clouds are not magic -- there is a lot of money, time, and effort put in by cloud operators in building them and keeping them online. The same applies to digital storefronts.

Just because something looks simple on the outside, that doesn't mean it's simple on the inside -- and worth no compensation.

I'm a devops developer. The amount of money they are making could staff 100x as many developers and they'd still be taking in cash.

Edit: looked it up, Apple got $15 Billion from the store last year, that's enough to salary around 80,000 level 3 software engineers and have a billion or so in profit. The store doesn't need 80k developers, not even close.
 

SJurgenson

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,239
I'm a devops developer. The amount of money they are making could staff 100x as many developers and they'd still be taking in cash.

Sure, 30% is probably pretty steep (I don't know the actual costs) -- but Epic's entire argument is that it should be 0% -- for seemingly nonsensical reasons. Their store takes a 12% cut.

Under the current laws, I cannot imagine any reasonable/winnable legal argument where a 12% store cut is OK, but 30% is manifestly illegal.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,751
Sure, where the only other city is owned by another single company, and where leaving and setting up in the other city has a high opportunity cost and you aren't allowed to take any of your stuff with you.

Smartphones are a near necessity for practical life in modern society. Banking, buying buss tickets, signing up for my drivers license test, social media and so on. It's not just something people can choose not to participate in.

It's fucking crazy that people here are ok with two companies owning and having complete control over the entire market of something as ubiquitous as smartphone software. For all the capitalism hate I see on here era sure seems to love their mega corps.
But Fortnite is on more than two devices. Also, yes, I believe Apple should have some control over what is on their store. Epic is saying they should have no control over their store and receive no compensation whatsoever.
 

KtSlime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,910
Tokyo
Sure, where the only other city is owned by another single company, and where leaving and setting up in the other city has a high opportunity cost and you aren't allowed to take any of your stuff with you.

It's fucking crazy that people here are ok with two companies owning and having complete control over the entire market of something as ubiquitous as smartphone software.
Can't play PS3 games on a PS4 either, and that's the same company and same product line... I don't think the argument that you can't use old software on new hardware holds much value regardless if it is a lock in when the go to answer is "just use the old hardware for the old software" and everyone does it, as is the nature with software.
I'm a devops developer. The amount of money they are making could staff 100x as many developers and they'd still be taking in cash.
This gets to a fundamental question about economic systems. Currently most of us live under an economic system where companies employ people to make money, and not under one where companies earn money to employ people. Right or wrong, we just don't live in that world.
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
Sure, 30% is probably pretty steep (I don't know the actual costs) -- but Epic's entire argument is that it should be 0% -- for seemingly nonsensical reasons. Their store takes a 12% cut.

I'm not advocating Epic but a utility based monetization model. If that means it ends up being effectively 7% in Apple's case cool but I don't think it should be revenue based.
 

Aaron D.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,310
I think it should be based on a formula that incorporates data usage in the store both with app downloads, updates, and charting. Free apps would probably need to be discounted as they rely on selling your info.

80% of iOS apps are free and they still receive the full benefits of Apple's tools, hosting and support. Apple doesn't make a dime off these apps.
 

SJurgenson

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,239
I think it should be based on a formula that incorporates data usage in the store both with app downloads, updates, and charting. Free apps would probably need to be discounted as they rely on selling your info.

That would probably be a nice thing to have. But that's just an argument at to what percentage of a store cut is fair -- which has nothing in particular to do with the Apple/Epic situation.

Epic wants to get away with using Apple's store without paying for it.

I don't operate a digital store -- but, yeah, 30% seems high. But that's closer to the actual value provided than the 0% Epic wanted.
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
That would probably be a nice thing to have. But that's just an argument at to what percentage of a store cut is fair -- which has nothing in particular to do with the Apple/Epic situation.

Epic wants to get away with using Apple's store without paying for it.

Yes, I agree Epic is in bad faith. They'd do the same thing Apple is doing if they could. And the way they're circumventing Apple is leeching off their platform.
 

Arebours

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,656
it sounds like building those city is a hard job. wondered whether people need to be compensated for all their effort in making one
Oh yes, the hard work of being a shareholder. I don't know who you think is getting compensated with all this excess income but that's the answer for you. Apple enjoys >80% margins on their app store, that doesn't sound very hard compared to markets where actual competition exists. In fact margins like that aren't supposed to exist in functioning free markets and they are if anything an indication of an anti-competitive monopolistic situation.

Apple employees hundreds if not thousands of employees in developing, maintaining, and managing the App Store.

Clouds are not magic -- there is a lot of money, time, and effort put in by cloud operators in building them and keeping them online. The same applies to digital storefronts.

Just because something looks simple on the outside, that doesn't mean it's simple on the inside -- and worth no compensation.
It's good then that we have an objective measure of how much effort they put into their app store: their margins. it's simply the fact that whatever resources they put into maintaining the store is but a drop in the ocean compared to their revenue, and so that's how much weight should be given to their contributions.

Can't play PS3 games on a PS4 either, and that's the same company and same product line... I don't think the argument that you can't use old software on new hardware holds much value regardless if it is a lock in when the go to answer is "just use the old hardware for the old software" and everyone does it, as is the nature with software.
Software compatibility wasn't the point, I was talking about opportunity cost. People here talk about switching platforms as if it's like pushing a button, while ignoring the cost of getting a new phone, the time cost in learning a new system and setting everything up, the cost of losing access to apps, the social cost of being on different platforms(some people refuse to use non-native messaging for example) and so on. To anyone but coddled upper middle class era users changing the smartphone platform is a massive headache that nobody wants to go through.
 

Armoredgoomba

Member
Jun 17, 2018
1,093
Maybe Apple should hire you!

It shows.

Are you sure? (Hint: don't be)

Lol. "Re-release the kraken!"

Just to make clear that this goes both directions. What reason do you have to believe that?

Folks this is so much more complicated than you can really appreciate. I encourage you to take a significantly more agnostic approach to this fight. There is nothing obvious about the results and effects of either side's maneuvering.
Breach of contract is breach of breach contract. It doesn't take a judge to determine whether epic acted outside of their contract (Epic themselves admitted as much but says it doesn't matter)