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davepoobond

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,538
www.squackle.com
There's some interesting responses from Devs on twitter to this.





but whose responsibility is it to preserve these games? i'm not sure the onus should fall on apple here at all. they can't guarantee that every app/OS is always backwards compatible and the app store should always be available for all of them

no one expected software stores to keep an ever expanding library of outdated games just because

it has always been the publisher/developer's responsibility to keep software available. if they programmed something for an OS that will go out of date w/out updates.... that's their fault
 
OP
OP
Captain of Outer Space

Captain of Outer Space

Come Sale Away With Me
Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,311
I loved the earlier 16/32 bit era of 99c games on the iPhone. Bought a ton and there were a lot I loved to play. Still have access to a number since I never updated ios on my old iPhone 4s or ipad 3 thankfully.

I've completely stopped buying apps/gaming on my iPhone over the last few years largely due to Apples policies. Great hardware for pictures / web browsing at least.
I had an early iPod Touch and got updates for games I was playing that made them unplayable on the Touch with nothing in the update log suggesting that would happen. It's wild what could happen with iOS games back then.
 

shadow2810

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,243
but whose responsibility is it to preserve these games? i'm not sure the onus should fall on apple here at all. they can't guarantee that every app/OS is always backwards compatible and the app store should always be available for all of them

no one expected software stores to keep an ever expanding library of outdated games just because

it has always been the publisher/developer's responsibility to keep software available. if they programmed something for an OS that will go out of date w/out updates.... that's their fault
Only allowing devices running certain version of the OS to download the app? it's not like they haven't locked out ipad/mac m1 from downloading some ios apps
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
Just to show the scale of the problem with Apple's ecosystem with this for some devs too, it's not just "shove a barely changed build up there as an update" unfortunately.







Most games are heavily, heavily sandboxed and if they're able to break out of that and do actual harm, it's an iOS issue that can be rectified.


On top of this, Mac OS virtualization is garbage. Super unstable, doesn't scale.

Apple's developer ecosystem has a lot of friction.

Meanwhile I can build a software component at work built on .NET 1.0 or gcc from 15 years ago.
 

Pwnz

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,279
Places
I also like how apple and apparently Google gets 30% of revenue but they can't be bothered to have automated system tests to verify compatibility and instead kill software. What a horrible ecosystem.
 

thisismadness

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,445
Zero issues with that, apps should never ever ever appear as being available to purchase for a device they don't fully support. The iOS thing can't really happen as the system isn't supported on 10 yr old devices for good and bad reasons. (i.e. You can't backdate a console OS and the go wandering into their App Store to buy stuff)

As for downloading a .pkg from the net randomly, again no issue with the concept apart from potential security issues. You can't do it with console games though* and if you did for a X360 for instance, you might need to update the system OS and App Store to maybe be able to d/l DLC if it was available and could break your d/l-ed game.

What if you did grab a 10 yr old game and side load it on your Galaxy S48 in 2033, but then you can't run it or buy DLC as the app doesn't support the encryption of HDMI3.19 now required by megaplex consortiums and the revised Android Complete store security protocols?

P.S. TVs and some streaming boxes are the worst, you need to buy them and forget about receiving software support after a year. They get dropped like hot potatoes.

I think consoles should be doing a far better job with preservation as well, so the "consoles don't either" is not at all a compelling argument to me. I was explaining why I would give Google/Android a pass, because there are easy work around. It doesn't matter what Google does with the Googleplay store because the developer has the option of hosting the package themselves and I can freely install unsigned packages. None of that is possible on iOS today (legitimately). And if Android is locked down to that degree in 2033 then we'll have the same conversation about Android in 11 years.
 
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Henrar

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,905
And this is why I hate Apple.

Old titles like Bioshock 1 were on iOS! Games that people paid for are now unplayable simply because they didn't want to continue supporting builds from that version. It is 100% a design decision and not technical in the slightest.
2K promised to fix that issue caused by iOS 8.4 and then dropped it. The blame lies solely on them and not on Apple.
 
Jun 20, 2019
2,638
I also like how apple and apparently Google gets 30% of revenue but they can't be bothered to have automated system tests to verify compatibility and instead kill software. What a horrible ecosystem.
They can check compliance with the privacy disclosure policy by looking up a field in their internal database.
 

Kastanjemanden

alt account
Banned
Jan 23, 2022
363
We should force devs to update old apps to be compatible with new hardware or just let it be gone. There's so many crap camera apps from years ago that haven't been touched and make no sense and it's just useless filler.

If you're relying on an App Store to "preserve" things, find a better way. Cloud storage isn't free.
 

Ry.

Member
Oct 10, 2021
1,098
the planet Zebes
If you make a game for a console, you can set it and forget it. If you make a game for the mobile platform, with hundreds (apple) or thousands(android) of devices that your software needs to run on, then you will need to keep updating that software when the APIs change or policy changes happen.

This is just part of the ecosystem. It's about compatibility, security, stability and legal reasons. It's also about curation on a platform that has mass saturation. None of this is a surprise for 99% of mobile or web/pc/Mac software developers. I could see if you were primarily a console game dev and then you made a mobile game and didn't factor this inevitably in, but it's not some sort of sinister move by apple or google, it's the equivalent of pruning old leaves from the tree. (The game may work, but if it hasn't kept up with necessary platform standards then it's going to eventually become a security or compatibility issue sooner or later anyways, if it already isn't).

I feel for the smaller indie dev that doesn't want to buy a semi new iPhone or spend the time to update the game, but none of this is new or unexpected, it's literally just business and the nature of the tech in the ecosystem. It's far worse in the internet/web space, updating dependencies is a regular part of the cycle for any actively used site/app/program that users are engaging with.
 
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Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
To the peoplee that are schocked that apple is doing this, because preserevation, functional games, history... yeah, sorry, but apple is still a capitalistic company? They will virtue signal interest in art as long as its in their financial interest, but old games that dont get updates just are not of interest, since there is no revenue.
If the develeoper cant affort the upkeep (hardware, software, work time...) then that means the game is not selling much anymore, and apple has no incentive eto keep it. And checking every app before removing it... well, takes time, human work, and costs apple probably more then an app that does not get updates brings in, so no reason for them.

Its kinda like expecting the bucher to be intereesteed in animal wellfare. He will convey to you that his animals are having a happy life...but they still get slaugthered in the end, and he will never stop that, since it goes against his core financial incentive.

Comparison with other platforms:
no platform keeps stuff forever. Nintendo? well, 3DS store is closing. Wii is closed. sony with Vita? same.
Microsoft? people mention that all software of years gone can work on current windows.
Eh...kinda. Not all, not always without problems. And especially: you wont find any of those old products on their store.

The way windows works is worlds different to how Android or IOS work, with som ebenefits, and detrements.
Security is a huge weakness of windows compared to the 2, and when windows kinda tries to work against that (Windows 11, TPM 2...) people are up in arms.

Windows also tends to ship most of what you need in the executable, which leads to a lot od redundant data, but helps against dependencies. Linux? No chance. there is a chance that some software you are using even breaks between minor versions, and moving some tools between distributions can be its own problem, trying to have a really old version oft software run in current linux, while it lacks all their dependencies? good luck, definitely no "install and run" solution in many cases.

Just updating the apps? as mentiones in the beginning, it brings cost with it (if its not a current project, there is a high chance that the whole build setup is currently not there, and while configuring that you can get to massive problems with nevere engine versions (if you cant find the old on, or some licenses have expired), the new upload maybe has other requirements/restrictions that need to get checked/worked on, maybe you really need new hardware ...
Its in many cases not feasable from a developer perspective.

And also from a consumer perspective: having an ever growing app store full of dead apps floating around that do nothing, dont work, etc, can be distracting, anoying, and overall reduce the quality. Heck, at the beginning with the switch i regularly looked into the eshop, what has released, and found some interesting stuff. now i dont, because there is to much low quality crap or straight dishonest advertised products in there.

With all that said, now to my more productive thoughts:
I dont think apple will allow sideloading.
  • BUT, i could see them giving you online compiling resources (certain amount of compute power free with a developer acount, for more you have to pay premium, so that if you only need it for short compilation of 1 or 2 projects you dont need to buy the latest hardware...but not so exploitable that people dont buy hardware anymore.
    Kinda like amazon web services
  • have a longer timeframe, not updated 2 years ago is still a rather recent ios version, so there should not be much of a problem
  • emulation wrapper. Having a massively cut down version of IOS running in a container on an ios device. Shure, not the most effizient, but if the developer does not need much interoperability with hardware specific features, modern security features, access to your data etc, then i could see it being okay as a solution for say older games.
    Since its stitll IOS and ARM, it should be feasable, as long as you dont have a bunch of those old apps running, and the initial development would definitely be a problem, and maybe im to naive here, but since that one scales (instead of having a check app by app), and still requires the developer to at least check a checkbox in a form if he does not have the means to update the app, so that they can sort out stuff that truly is abandoned.

Lastly, im pretty shure there will be (if there isnt already) a lively emulator scene tor emulating specific ios versions for old software that was removed from the platform or does not work anymore.

PS: no, im not on "Apples side", but they are what they are, a huge publicly traded operation that mas the major goal to create profit, and everything here makes sense from that perspective. It sucks from an art and availability perespective. But lets not do as if apple is the only of those companies that is lacking in that regard as a mega coorp, no chance that the 3DS or Vita or Wii store where that much of a cost factor, especially thinking how small the software that was downloaded was compared to current games, and how low the bandwidth would need to be since not that many people are actively using those stores.
 

TheChrisGlass

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,605
Los Angeles, CA
Dude, this is nothing like Nintendo or Sony.

This is a living OS that gets regular updates.

When the 3DS store shuts down, I can still play my 3DS games. But with a phone, it's nearly impossible to go back and get the old OS updates when it worked properly.

But at least on Windows, you can run it through a VM.

Saying that old, working apps need to be jettisoned from the app store because of clutter is a worthless statement because the stores has ALWAYS been cluttered and ALWAYS will be.
 

Ry.

Member
Oct 10, 2021
1,098
the planet Zebes
To the peoplee that are schocked that apple is doing this, because preserevation, functional games, history... yeah, sorry, but apple is still a capitalistic company? They will virtue signal interest in art as long as its in their financial interest, but old games that dont get updates just are not of interest, since there is no revenue.
If the develeoper cant affort the upkeep (hardware, software, work time...) then that means the game is not selling much anymore, and apple has no incentive eto keep it. And checking every app before removing it... well, takes time, human work, and costs apple probably more then an app that does not get updates brings in, so no reason for them.

Its kinda like expecting the bucher to be intereesteed in animal wellfare. He will convey to you that his animals are having a happy life...but they still get slaugthered in the end, and he will never stop that, since it goes against his core financial incentive.

Comparison with other platforms:
no platform keeps stuff forever. Nintendo? well, 3DS store is closing. Wii is closed. sony with Vita? same.
Microsoft? people mention that all software of years gone can work on current windows.
Eh...kinda. Not all, not always without problems. And especially: you wont find any of those old products on their store.

The way windows works is worlds different to how Android or IOS work, with som ebenefits, and detrements.
Security is a huge weakness of windows compared to the 2, and when windows kinda tries to work against that (Windows 11, TPM 2...) people are up in arms.

Windows also tends to ship most of what you need in the executable, which leads to a lot od redundant data, but helps against dependencies. Linux? No chance. there is a chance that some software you are using even breaks between minor versions, and moving some tools between distributions can be its own problem, trying to have a really old version oft software run in current linux, while it lacks all their dependencies? good luck, definitely no "install and run" solution in many cases.

Just updating the apps? as mentiones in the beginning, it brings cost with it (if its not a current project, there is a high chance that the whole build setup is currently not there, and while configuring that you can get to massive problems with nevere engine versions (if you cant find the old on, or some licenses have expired), the new upload maybe has other requirements/restrictions that need to get checked/worked on, maybe you really need new hardware ...
Its in many cases not feasable from a developer perspective.

And also from a consumer perspective: having an ever growing app store full of dead apps floating around that do nothing, dont work, etc, can be distracting, anoying, and overall reduce the quality. Heck, at the beginning with the switch i regularly looked into the eshop, what has released, and found some interesting stuff. now i dont, because there is to much low quality crap or straight dishonest advertised products in there.

With all that said, now to my more productive thoughts:
I dont think apple will allow sideloading.
  • BUT, i could see them giving you online compiling resources (certain amount of compute power free with a developer acount, for more you have to pay premium, so that if you only need it for short compilation of 1 or 2 projects you dont need to buy the latest hardware...but not so exploitable that people dont buy hardware anymore.
    Kinda like amazon web services
  • have a longer timeframe, not updated 2 years ago is still a rather recent ios version, so there should not be much of a problem
  • emulation wrapper. Having a massively cut down version of IOS running in a container on an ios device. Shure, not the most effizient, but if the developer does not need much interoperability with hardware specific features, modern security features, access to your data etc, then i could see it being okay as a solution for say older games.
    Since its stitll IOS and ARM, it should be feasable, as long as you dont have a bunch of those old apps running, and the initial development would definitely be a problem, and maybe im to naive here, but since that one scales (instead of having a check app by app), and still requires the developer to at least check a checkbox in a form if he does not have the means to update the app, so that they can sort out stuff that truly is abandoned.

Lastly, im pretty shure there will be (if there isnt already) a lively emulator scene tor emulating specific ios versions for old software that was removed from the platform or does not work anymore.

PS: no, im not on "Apples side", but they are what they are, a huge publicly traded operation that mas the major goal to create profit, and everything here makes sense from that perspective. It sucks from an art and availability perespective. But lets not do as if apple is the only of those companies that is lacking in that regard as a mega coorp, no chance that the 3DS or Vita or Wii store where that much of a cost factor, especially thinking how small the software that was downloaded was compared to current games, and how low the bandwidth would need to be since not that many people are actively using those stores.

Well put
 

Henrar

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,905
The entire existence of GOG disagrees with that statement.
Just because a developer doesn't get a game updated for a new OS doesn't mean it should be relegated to simply a purchased receipt in your email.
That's because a lot of old games on GoG were specifically touched by CDPR to make them work on modern systems (and some of them were still broken - like music playback in Jedi Knight).

Plus - Windows is designed for backwards compatibility and it has both advantages and disadvantages (like, try to use Explorer with file paths longer than 260 characters). And even then there is shitton of old Windows software that refuses to work on modern systems.

Oh, and yeah, in Bioshock's case - Apple didn't remove the game from the store, 2K did.
 

RM8

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,898
JP
2 years only is absolutely ridiculous. You can argue the same happens to consoles but 3DS is shutting down WAY after 2 years. It sucks that Google is also doing this, but at least there are multiple app stores and ways to download delisted APKs.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
The entire existence of GOG disagrees with that statement.
Just because a developer doesn't get a game updated for a new OS doesn't mean it should be relegated to simply a purchased receipt in your email.
Oh, that reminds me, i had a "fun" experience once. Had Downwell on Android. Then after a handfull of years i could not find it anymore, but i was shure that i bought it. Oh well, looked into it, bought it...but it was not "bought" in the App store anymore. Mailed Devolver Digital with my order number and the receit, what happened, got a mail "well look into it"...never got an answer, or the game.

I asume that in the mean time there was a reupload or something, and the new had a different ID to the old one or whatever. All of those digital transactions, especially on those mobile platforms (IOS and Android) seem so fragile in a way, seing how often stuff gets delistet or outright removed.
On the other hand, i lost my Mario Kart 8 Deluxe cart, no idea where it is.
 

sonofsamsonite

The one who likes mustard
Member
Nov 1, 2017
772
It is a shitty move but Apple can't realistically test every app to make sure they're still working. There's more than 2 million apps on the App Store. That responsibility to keep the apps functional does have to fall on the developer. Two years is a crazy cutoff point though.
 

Madjoki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,230
It is a shitty move but Apple can't realistically test every app to make sure they're still working. There's more than 2 million apps on the App Store. That responsibility to keep the apps functional does have to fall on the developer. Two years is a crazy cutoff point though.

Devs are literally forced to pay Apple fee to test their apps tho.
Besides ensuring APIs still work, should be Apple's job and using older device should be allowed too.

Apps breaking due to other factors (like server shutdown) are going to be just small slice.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
I understand the feeling, but I also understand Apple not wanting the App Store to be full of games that aren't compatible with the most recent version of iOS, which the overwhelming majority of people are running their servers to host games they don't profit from, either from users buying them or devs buying new hardware to update them.
FTFY. Apple corporate overlords thank you for your understanding.
 

EagleBen

Prophet of Regret
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
707
The app store is a complete failure for non-f2p games. I still remember the day Tiny Wings released, and how amazing it was that such an experience could be had for a couple bucks on my phone. I feel like the only solution would be for force Apple to allow other app-stores that would actually provide exposure to good games.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
That responsibility to keep the apps functional does have to fall on the developer.
Uhhh... what? It works the exact opposite way, in every single other platform not owned by Apple; the platform holder is always the party responsible for OS updates not breaking older hardware, not the other way around. This is so fundamental to software development that suggesting otherwise is downright surreal.
 

Mg.

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,970
Ugh just the thought of having to open and recompile a Xcode project I haven't touched for 2 years is giving me some anxiety lmao
 

apocat

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,046
This is one of the worst aspects of mobile gaming. I bought a ton of games on ios back in the day. There was a lot of creativity back when smartphones first blew up. A lot of those purchases are no longer valid. The games have been delisted. I get removing apps for lack of compatibility, even though that sucks as well, but solely because they haven't been updated? I'm not likely to spend money on the app store anymore.
 

Ambitious

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,337
but old games that dont get updates just are not of interest, since there is no revenue.

Why would there be no revenue without updates? The games can still be bought.

If the develeoper cant affort the upkeep (hardware, software, work time...) then that means the game is not selling much anymore, and apple has no incentive eto keep it.

What upkeep? Some games are done. They're completed products. There's nothing left to do. If they don't work on the latest iOS versions, that's on Apple.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
Why would there be no revenue without updates? The games can still be bought.



What upkeep? Some games are done. They're completed products. There's nothing left to do. If they don't work on the latest iOS versions, that's on Apple.
You have to read that from apples perspective:
Games that are done but dont have updates (in other words: fresh content to incentivise new players, or Microtransactions for acontinued revenue where apple is getting a share...)

Yeah, done games still can sell. but there are hundreds of graphs, how the sales develop over time, in the end it would be in single digit numbers in a month or a year.
And thats for the ones where people are even interested in after years. Shovelware, random average puzzle games? those can have 0 downloads.

To decide which are worth it, and which arent, apple would need to check them, and then we are back, that it would be financially uninteresting.

From an developer perspective, if a game sels a handfull of times in a year, its not worth having a full build pipeline up and running.
"not running on the latest IOS version"... NOT all games work on current windows. You have emulators for dos games, you have fan patches, you have broken steam games.... on linux its worse by far, and as i mentioned, its "easier" with windows, but IOS is closer to unix then to windows.
Then, if games use OS features which are deprecated, or services that are down, or dont implement a new privacy concept, then those need to be updated.

Mind you: some games will work, even after years of no updates. And 2 years are a fucking joke by apple. But we come back to:
Deciding which ones means, a person has to test it, this can take from a view minutes to 1 or 2 hours. with millions and millions of apps.
Not just games, tonns of random apps that dont sell. On their store shelves.

In short: there are maybe a handfull of evergreen apps... and if they are, then updating them should be feasable,
even if its just to update some used libraries with more secure or stable ones (or simply with the current versions of them).

For the rest, the cost of checking if its a a) working and b) secure app is probably just not worth the money for apple.
Its essentially a : if you as a developer still want your app to be on our storefront, we need a sign of life that you are inveted in your product.

Mind you: thats all with a financial/capitalistic mindset. If it would be a different world, we could argue in a more human/artistic way.
But even then, mindshare is limited, and with an ever growing space of data it gets harder and harder from recomender systems to work (and search in an app store is a form of recomender system).

One addition: there could be an addition to the metric, where if its an active app in downloads with high user satisfaction, that the app has a longer window of not needing to update. This would mitigate somewhat the worries for the handfull of "evergreen" apps that are "finished" , but im not shure how many those really are...

PS:
People mention windows in "old games work"...and always ignore that on other ends people from different professions are always anoyed by it trying to be to many different things and having to many ways for some things. Backwards compatibility is part of that. Many of its insecurities come from exactly that, and it security is a big aspect, if the hardware you play your games on is also the hardware you do your banking.... something consoles usually dont have to worry about.
 
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Sqrt

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,880
Uhhh... what? It works the exact opposite way, in every single other platform not owned by Apple; the platform holder is always the party responsible for OS updates not breaking older hardware, not the other way around. This is so fundamental to software development that suggesting otherwise is downright surreal.
Imagine a PS5/XBS/Switch/Steam system update breaking a large amount of games and Sony/MS/Nintendo/Valve switching blame to developers... and consumers accepting it.
 

Sqrt

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,880
You have to read that from apples perspective:
Games that are done but dont have updates (in other words: fresh content to incentivise new players, or Microtransactions for acontinued revenue where apple is getting a share...)

Yeah, done games still can sell. but there are hundreds of graphs, how the sales develop over time, in the end it would be in single digit numbers in a month or a year.
And thats for the ones where people are even interested in after years. Shovelware, random average puzzle games? those can have 0 downloads.

To decide which are worth it, and which arent, apple would need to check them, and then we are back, that it would be financially uninteresting.

From an developer perspective, if a game sels a handfull of times in a year, its not worth having a full build pipeline up and running.
"not running on the latest IOS version"... NOT all games work on current windows. You have emulators for dos games, you have fan patches, you have broken steam games.... on linux its worse by far, and as i mentioned, its "easier" with windows, but IOS is closer to unix then to windows.
Then, if games use OS features which are deprecated, or services that are down, or dont implement a new privacy concept, then those need to be updated.

Mind you: some games will work, even after years of no updates. And 2 years are a fucking joke by apple. But we come back to:
Deciding which ones means, a person has to test it, this can take from a view minutes to 1 or 2 hours. with millions and millions of apps.
Not just games, tonns of random apps that dont sell. On their store shelves.

In short: there are maybe a handfull of evergreen apps... and if they are, then updating them should be feasable,
even if its just to update some used libraries with more secure or stable ones (or simply with the current versions of them).

For the rest, the cost of checking if its a a) working and b) secure app is probably just not worth the money for apple.
Its essentially a : if you as a developer still want your app to be on our storefront, we need a sign of life that you are inveted in your product.

Mind you: thats all with a financial/capitalistic mindset. If it would be a different world, we could argue in a more human/artistic way.
But even then, mindshare is limited, and with an ever growing space of data it gets harder and harder from recomender systems to work (and search in an app store is a form of recomender system).

One addition: there could be an addition to the metric, where if its an active app in downloads with high user satisfaction, that the app has a longer window of not needing to update. This would mitigate somewhat the worries for the handfull of "evergreen" apps that are "finished" , but im not shure how many those really are...

PS:
People mention windows in "old games work"...and always ignore that on other ends people from different professions are always anoyed by it trying to be to many different things and having to many ways for some things. Backwards compatibility is part of that. Many of its insecurities come from exactly that, and it security is a big aspect, if the hardware you play your games on is also the hardware you do your banking.... something consoles usually dont have to worry about.

Apple having a good reason to do what they do, and iOS being a terrible medium for software preservation are not mutually exclusive statements.
 

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
13,620
Eastern US
Uhhh... what? It works the exact opposite way, in every single other platform not owned by Apple; the platform holder is always the party responsible for OS updates not breaking older hardware, not the other way around. This is so fundamental to software development that suggesting otherwise is downright surreal.
Yep, Apple defense force on this is just weird.

It's like Sony breaking bunch of earlier PS4 games with the latest VRR update and saying it's Capcom/Sega/SE/etc fault. It's crazy talk.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
Imagine a PS5/XBS/Switch/Steam system update breaking a large amount of games and Sony/MS/Nintendo/Valve switching blame to developers... and consumers accepting it.
Well, its easy: they publish a new console, and you neither can download your games to that in many cases,
and after a while even the original platform will have no store to download the software officially, sicne it is shut down.

Different platforms, different goals, different problems. I think there is currently no option to get castlevania rebirth (legally) since the wii shop shut down?

Apple having a good reason to do what they do, and iOS being a terrible medium for software preservation are not mutually exclusive statements.
Well yeah, never said something different. I was just explaining WHY its not meant to be, and people should not expect it.
I also mentioned posible remedies, either from apples side if they want the good publicity and help the devs a little.
And i mentioned, that there probably will be an emulation scene for specific IOS versions in the future.

If developers want their games to be playable in the future, they either need to publish it on multiple platforms, keep it up to date, or after a certain while put it online for people to keep it alive. There is no such thing as a forever living software platform. Apple is to far of in the other end (as i sad, 2 years is a fucking joke).

And to software on windows working for always: i have seen enough old pcs in an DMZ simply because it
was impossible to get the software or the driver to run on a modern machine, or it needed soem really outdated Runtime environment.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
Yep, Apple defense force on this is just weird.

It's like Sony breaking bunch of earlier PS4 games with the latest VRR update and saying it's Capcom/Sega/SE/etc fault. It's crazy talk.
From a Software perspective: there is a difference of BREAKING or simply not suporting something.

Financial aspects (you cant suport everything forever), security aspects (some stuff becomes obsolete because it is not secure), etc.
IOS is not a GAMING platform. Its a general computing platform. Windows only has support for stuff to a certain extend, and then its done.
Linux distros have usually LTS versions where they try to keep them functioning for longer.
And some standards they all try to keep suported. But expecting the platform to not change ever is kinda like wanting the internet to stay in 1999.

There is a good reason why flash is dead as an example.

A Console/Gaming platform has that as its simple most target, and its usually a rather small combination of SKUs. The OS for such a platform is also way less complex then a general computing operating system.

Im not an apple fanboy, i only have an IPAD to be aple to familiarize with their OS as an IT professional (and honestly, androids Tablet options where meh for the longest time...). I think the company is at least problematic, and at most a parasitic capitalist cooperation.

But the reality is, not all software/platforms work the same and can be compared.
The better comparison would be sony not managing to have 100% of the PS4 library be compatible with PS5...oh...wait...

(Again arbitraty 2 year limit is stupid, having it longer and coupling it with "last tested IOS version" or something owuld make more sense)
 

dstarMDA

Member
Dec 22, 2017
4,289
From a Software perspective: there is a difference of BREAKING or simply not suporting something.

Financial aspects (you cant suport everything forever), security aspects (some stuff becomes obsolete because it is not secure), etc.
IOS is not a GAMING platform. Its a general computing platform. Windows only has support for stuff to a certain extend, and then its done.
Linux distros have usually LTS versions where they try to keep them functioning for longer.
And some standards they all try to keep suported. But expecting the platform to not change ever is kinda like wanting the internet to stay in 1999.

There is a good reason why flash is dead as an example.

A Console/Gaming platform has that as its simple most target, and its usually a rather small combination of SKUs. The OS for such a platform is also way less complex then a general computing operating system.

Im not an apple fanboy, i only have an IPAD to be aple to familiarize with their OS as an IT professional (and honestly, androids Tablet options where meh for the longest time...). I think the company is at least problematic, and at most a parasitic capitalist cooperation.

But the reality is, not all software/platforms work the same and can be compared.
The better comparison would be sony not managing to have 100% of the PS4 library be compatible with PS5...oh...wait...

(Again arbitraty 2 year limit is stupid, having it longer and coupling it with "last tested IOS version" or something owuld make more sense)
Pretty sure there isn't a 2-year limit at all, it's a contextual event. Right now it seems like there's an issue with the app store entries not having yet updated their data privacy requirements, which were newly introduced two years ago.

Apple behaves this way (delisting old apps) regularly, but I'm not seeing any stated deadline anywhere.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
Pretty sure there isn't a 2-year limit at all, it's a contextual event. Right now it seems like there's an issue with the app store entries not having yet updated their data privacy requirements, which were newly introduced two years ago.

Apple behaves this way (delisting old apps) regularly, but I'm not seeing any stated deadline anywhere.
Oh okay, i kinda got the sense that it was a 2 year thing. This makes waaaay more sense, ind privacy policy (and thinking there was some change that BENEFITS the user) i actually see why they want that.

Again, thats one of those aspects where those platforms differ from gaming platforms, you dont have all your private information, private fotos, messages, contacts, payment, sometime seven official calls, contacts, mails etc on your PS4 (usually), and that makes a huge difference.
 

Connope

Member
Mar 6, 2022
1,524
IOS is not a GAMING platform. Its a general computing platform. Windows only has support for stuff to a certain extend, and then its done.
I disagree with this sentence to be honest. I think that iOS is both a gaming platform and a general computing platform. Apple have consistently advertised iOS and iOS devices based on their gaming capabilities:

iPod Touch advert from 2009 (Rolando is in this advert, everyone with an iOS device should get Royal Edition if you haven't played it):


And an iPhone X advert from 2019:


Plus that in literally every conference they're like "the new chip lets you play console quality games, including from our partners at [traditional console game developers]".

Apple make a ridiculous amount of revenue from mobile gaming, and according to this article it's a majority of their App Store revenue - https://appleinsider.com/articles/2...n-sony-nintendo-microsoft-activision-combined.

iOS is most definitely a gaming platform, and Apple clearly see it as one. It is also definitely also more than that, which makes the job more difficult. But that doesn't mean they should have less of an obligation to preserve older content than companies like Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo. We (rightfully) complain when they don't have backwards compatibility or take down their old stores, no matter how much business sense it makes for them to do that. Just because a move makes sense from a business perspective and is likely more profitable, doesn't mean we can't (and shouldn't) complain about it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
20,756
I disagree with this sentence to be honest. I think that iOS is both a gaming platform and a general computing platform. Apple have consistently advertised iOS and iOS devices based on their gaming capabilities:

iPod Touch advert from 2009 (Rolando is in this advert, everyone with an iOS device should get Royal Edition if you haven't played it):


And an iPhone X advert from 2019:


Plus that in literally every conference they're like "the new chip lets you play console quality games, including from our partners at [traditional console game developers]".

Apple make a ridiculous amount of revenue from mobile gaming, and according to this article it's a majority of their App Store revenue - https://appleinsider.com/articles/2...n-sony-nintendo-microsoft-activision-combined.

iOS is most definitely a gaming platform, and Apple clearly see it as one. It is also definitely also more than that, which makes the job more difficult. But that doesn't mean they should have less of an obligation to preserve older content than companies like Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo. We (rightfully) complain when they don't have backwards compatibility or take down their old stores, no matter how much business sense it makes for them to do that. Just because a move makes sense from a business perspective and is likely more profitable, doesn't mean we can't (and shouldn't) complain about it.

Yeah I see it as one too. Aren't there rumors of Apple looking into an actual game console?

They could totally package the M1 in a $300 or less package to replace the Apple TV device or add on to it and have it run games across mac, iPad, and iPhone OS
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
I disagree with this sentence to be honest. I think that iOS is both a gaming platform and a general computing platform. Apple have consistently advertised iOS and iOS devices based on their gaming capabilities:

iPod Touch advert from 2009 (Rolando is in this advert, everyone with an iOS device should get Royal Edition if you haven't played it):


And an iPhone X advert from 2019:


Plus that in literally every conference they're like "the new chip lets you play console quality games, including from our partners at [traditional console game developers]".

Apple make a ridiculous amount of revenue from mobile gaming, and according to this article it's a majority of their App Store revenue - https://appleinsider.com/articles/2...n-sony-nintendo-microsoft-activision-combined.

iOS is most definitely a gaming platform, and Apple clearly see it as one. It is also definitely also more than that, which makes the job more difficult. But that doesn't mean they should have less of an obligation to preserve older content than companies like Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo. We (rightfully) complain when they don't have backwards compatibility or take down their old stores, no matter how much business sense it makes for them to do that. Just because a move makes sense from a business perspective and is likely more profitable, doesn't mean we can't (and shouldn't) complain about it.

... i mean yeah, they are also saying the IPhone camera is good enough to make professional photos and videos like the pros.
If its by their marketing we judge, then nobody needs any other platform then IOS anymore...except when they are trying to sell a Macbook.

Its used for communicating, browsing, content creating, navigating, entertainment, text editing, developing, music production, machine lerning, acounting, ...
Yeah, its a general computing platform. A general computing platform is ALSO a gaming platform. Shure.
But its note solelly one, so it cant prioritize gaming to the detrement of the other aspects it serves.

There is a reason why we have general tools and specialized ones.

And to the revenue: i never said that they dont make a ton of that by gaming... but im 90% shure that most of that is recuring revenue (In app purcases, microtransactions), so their main interest financially wont be old one-off games, since those have less revenue. they actually have more of an incentive to let those die, because it means less competition for the free to play games that are bringing in so much more money.
 

Weltall Zero

Game Developer
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
19,343
Madrid
Imagine a PS5/XBS/Switch/Steam system update breaking a large amount of games and Sony/MS/Nintendo/Valve switching blame to developers... and consumers accepting it.
Yep, Apple defense force on this is just weird.

It's like Sony breaking bunch of earlier PS4 games with the latest VRR update and saying it's Capcom/Sega/SE/etc fault. It's crazy talk.
Exactly. It's hard to overstate the monumental "fuck you" this represents for most developers, especially indie ones. Apple is ensuring no developers ever bother making any games for Apple devices, except freemium gacha stuff. Which of course makes sense as these are the games that rake in the cash for both their devs and Apple. A textbook, nearly parodic example of "corporations are not your friend", and consumers still trip over themselves to defend.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,504
Well, its easy: they publish a new console, and you neither can download your games to that in many cases,
and after a while even the original platform will have no store to download the software officially, sicne it is shut down.

Different platforms, different goals, different problems. I think there is currently no option to get castlevania rebirth (legally) since the wii shop shut down?

This is not a "new console" situation, it's like if Steam released an update that broke any game without patches for years. Right now I can play Prey 2006 at my Steam account.

Apple hardware shouldn't have the same standard of Wii U lol

And if a game hasn't been updated in 7 to 8 years, it sure sounds like abandonware to me - how much support would anyone get from that?

Maybe the game is... finished?
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,998
Apple should really be looking at some kind of sandboxed legacy environment where you could load games on demand that use old APIs.

People are just upset while they have no idea what a fucking clusterfuck Windows is thanks to its "proper compatibility". It's a mess which bothers devs (like me) and consumers because they can't set a damn direction and cannot step forward in a decisive manner.

The absolute best option for this was what MS initially tried with 10X. AKA sandboxing.

Games definitely should get this opportunity, even if apps don't (remember android tablets? Sometimes you have to force the hands of the management)
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
This is not a "new console" situation, it's like if Steam released an update that broke any game without patches for years. Right now I can play Prey 2006 at my Steam account.

Apple hardware shouldn't have the same standard of Wii U lol



Maybe the game is... finished?
Steam is a platform. Windows is the OS. If a software breaks with the current Windows Version, Valve does not care. If it is a security problem, maybe it will do something, if it gets pressure from outside.

Apple? they are responsible for IOS AND the storefront.

And finished: what if it has a security flaw thats newer patched, because it is "finished"?
Or is in the store while not working anymore?

Its simple. its their storefront, and in a calculation they decided its not worth their time and resources, but the store is for shure more full with abandonware then perfectly "finished" gaming highlights.
Every 5th it student thinks he has a great idea for an app, and publishes it to the app store.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,504
Steam is a platform. Windows is the OS. If a software breaks with the current Windows Version, Valve does not care. If it is a security problem, maybe it will do something, if it gets pressure from outside.

Apple? they are responsible for IOS AND the storefront.

And finished: what if it has a security flaw thats newer patched, because it is "finished"?
Or is in the store while not working anymore?

Its simple. its their storefront, and in a calculation they decided its not worth their time and resources, but the store is for shure more full with abandonware then perfectly "finished" gaming highlights.
Every 5th it student thinks he has a great idea for an app, and publishes it to the app store.

Right now I have installed 43 games, just checked and many don't have updates for years or even since the release day and are still playable perfectly. How is this "abandonware"? Not everything is a GAAS (some examples: Detention, Bastion, Telltale Batman, Shephy, Umineko, Silver Case... all would be delisted on the Apple store)

If a update breaks a old game fans are free to make fan patches to fix them, as they do. But this is far from the norm as you're implying.
 

StereoVSN

Member
Nov 1, 2017
13,620
Eastern US
Right now I have installed 43 games, just checked and many don't have updates for years or even since the release day and are still playable perfectly. How is this "abandonware"? Not everything is a GAAS (some examples: Detention, Bastion, Telltale Batman, Shephy, Umineko, Silver Case... all would be delisted on the Apple store)

If a update breaks a old game fans are free to make fan patches to fix them, as they do. But this is far from the norm as you're implying.
Yep, on PC/Windows side I have games from 2000s or even late 90s that can run perfect fine with some tweaks. This is on GoG and Steam.

On consoles I have games that span decades as well. Apple needs to find a proper solution, as the current situation is horseshit.
 

Edward850

Software & Netcode Engineer at Nightdive Studios
Verified
Apr 5, 2019
990
New Zealand
Uniformed question - Does every single 32bit windows game work perfectly on a 64bit system? Full speed, no glitches?
Actually, yes. Perfectly. There are no compatibility issues between 32bit and 64bit software on Windows. Even going as far back as games made for Windows 95 (which was a DOS kernel), you can still run them now on Windows 11 in 64bit.

There may be other compatibility issues that crop up, but 32bit compatibility isn't the problem.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
On top of this, Mac OS virtualization is garbage. Super unstable, doesn't scale.

Apple's developer ecosystem has a lot of friction.

Meanwhile I can build a software component at work built on .NET 1.0 or gcc from 15 years ago.
Huge +1 to this. For classic Macintosh, there's community emulators at least, but I have no clue how I would go about running something like 10.2 now without getting ancient hardware.

Uniformed question - Does every single 32bit windows game work perfectly on a 64bit system? Full speed, no glitches?
Similar to the above, this was also true on the Mac side until Apple arbitrarily cut off support a few years ago.
 

Aether

Member
Jan 6, 2018
4,421
Right now I have installed 43 games, just checked and many don't have updates for years or even since the release day and are still playable perfectly. How is this "abandonware"? Not everything is a GAAS (some examples: Detention, Bastion, Telltale Batman, Shephy, Umineko, Silver Case... all would be delisted on the Apple store)

If a update breaks a old game fans are free to make fan patches to fix them, as they do. But this is far from the norm as you're implying.
Im not implying that its the norm.

And im not even "defending" apple in the sense that i think its right what they to.
From an IT perspective i understand why some decisions are made,
from an revenue perspective i understand others (in this regard).

Apples market is not just games, and even the just games market is huge. Its bigger i think then the "mainstream" gaming market represented on era. Most what counts as games there doesnt even count for a lot of people here.
And while here many people are big on preservation, history of games, games as an art etc, in IOS land the main audience is different. Im also not aware of games that are as much evergreens as Mario games, or have such a fanbase, and are NOT GaaS or by a big studio where keeping it updates is no problem.

And while i would like for them to take care of good legacy software, i would even more so wish for not exploiting workers in production, less greenwashing, less questionable lobying work, more transparency, and a step against a ton of prededtary software in the store, not little of that being GaaS.

So yeah, some old games that cant manage to finance an update when something like the privacy policy changes is the least of my worries/wishes with this mega cooperation.
 
Nov 25, 2017
159
Steam is a platform. Windows is the OS. If a software breaks with the current Windows Version, Valve does not care. If it is a security problem, maybe it will do something, if it gets pressure from outside.

Apple? they are responsible for IOS AND the storefront.

And finished: what if it has a security flaw thats newer patched, because it is "finished"?
Or is in the store while not working anymore?

Its simple. its their storefront, and in a calculation they decided its not worth their time and resources, but the store is for shure more full with abandonware then perfectly "finished" gaming highlights.
Every 5th it student thinks he has a great idea for an app, and publishes it to the app store.

This is one of the big reasons why Apple should not be the only store-front for these devices. If you would be able to side-load these games, or have alternate, GoG like storefronts, the problem would be partially solved. The argument that they shouldn't, because they are not the equivalent of a general purpose computer is ridiculous, since for many people, a phone is the only computer and gaming device they own. The other problem would require some kind of backwards compatibility or emulation mode, which apple should be forced to build into their devices as well.