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zoabs

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
May 7, 2018
1,673
Crackpot speculation, but I've noticed a lot of Apex streamers are playing less of Apex starting from last week. Dizzy has returned and played Apex saying that the mobility is just more fun than Valorant, despite not liking BRs. I think the streamers REALLY had a fun time with their playtesting this past week and weekend and are just taking it easy till the next season so they can dedicate and enjoy a LOT of time with all that Season 9 has to offer.

I think Arenas is gonna be a hit. ESPECIALLY if it acts as a valorant competitor and has a similar CS-like game mode.

It just REALLY needs to be 4v4 in addition to 3v3. Pls Respawn.
 

Wild Card

Member
Oct 26, 2017
585
Spitfire defense force really out here, I think if they either revert damage back to last season or change the recoil back to what it was it wouldn't be quite as disgusting.
 

Bauer91

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,206
Spitfire is the biggest balancing problem weapon wise in the game in season 8. 9 out of 10 deathboxes will have one, no balanced gun would be that opressive. With basically no recoil, high damage and enough bullets in one mag to wipe two full squads if you hit your shots, it allows shitters to kill good players and vastly lowers the skill gap. It needs to do less damage, shoot slower and/or have recoil that's much harder to control, like the Devotion, which is also much harder to find in a match.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,471
Fun clip where my team mate is afk while two people walk nearby him without noticing. He comes back as they're right on top of him.

 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,471
Mostly bang - but now I'm seeing people flying around and doing all sorts of crazy shit and feel like maybe her kit isn't that great? Still like her though

She's still good and honestly her smoke actually offers good cover against horizon lifts so I don't think she's been hurt all that badly by her. Character like Lifeline, Caustic and Bloodhound are far weaker with Horizon in the mix because they have no way to crate cover or reposition themselves quickly, and their abilities are somewhat countered by her ult.

I'd say Bang is in about the same place she always was.
 

SixtyFourBlades

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,864
Spitfire is the biggest balancing problem weapon wise in the game in season 8. 9 out of 10 deathboxes will have one, no balanced gun would be that opressive. With basically no recoil, high damage and enough bullets in one mag to wipe two full squads if you hit your shots, it allows shitters to kill good players and vastly lowers the skill gap. It needs to do less damage, shoot slower and/or have recoil that's much harder to control, like the Devotion, which is also much harder to find in a match.
Isn't that the point of why they buffed it though? To give bad players a slight chance to win fights? Y'all really don't want bad players to get anything huh?

It's a mid tier gun for low to mid tier players. Eventually the mid tier player will realize that a Spitfire in a straight 1v1 situation is gonna straight up lose to so many other guns in the game. I got a R301? I would feel confident pushing a guy with a Spitfire. I will get punished if I don't hit my shots. That's on me. But more than likely I'll down him because an R301 is just better.
 

SasaBassa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,075
The only scrubby gun in the game is the Volt and it's not even that scrubby...especially because everyone tries to run it and energy ammo is scarcer.

Spitfire is fine and as said above, sure it can win at mid range but 1v1? Losing that fight 8/10 times. Shit, even mid range with cover it'll lose to a wingman, hemlok or sentinel.

It's easy to use but so are several other guns in the game that are just as prevalent. Sounds like it's just throwing people off given that this is largely an smg-run game again. It's better than the s2 longbow meta still.
 

Addleburg

The Fallen
Nov 16, 2017
5,068
it allows shitters to kill good players and vastly lowers the skill gap.

If you're dying regularly to spitfires then the players you're dying to either aren't as shitty as you think, or you aren't as good as you think.

I've gotten shredded by people regularly while wielding a spitfire, and I don't especially do better with it than most other automatic guns, especially in sweatier lobbies.

Also, good players can and should be able to die to shitty players depending on the situation.. getting third partied after a grueling fight, a shitty player getting a decent gun from drop while a good player doesn't, a team of shitty players going up against a good player who's gone solo... Apex isn't a game where good players are supposed to win any battle just because they're good.
 

btkadams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,317
Cope. Seriously I do not see that shit as much as you claim it's out there, Mastiffs are more prevalent.
Literally no one uses Mastiff in my lobbies. Might you be on PC, maybe it's the opposite there?
I am in average lobbies on console and also definitely don't see Mastiffs anymore. EVA is the dominant shotgun. I also see a lot of Spitfires of course.

Spitfire definitely seems like a nuisance sometimes but it's pretty minor IMO. The weapon meta is still probably the most balanced it's ever been.


Also:
 

Zeroro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,408
The new mode could very well have the potential to build its own dedicated community of old and new players, independent of the BR community, if they're treating it with the attitude that it's a "full game." Excited to see what they have tomorrow (or, this'll be the CG trailer, I think, so next week for the proper gameplay trailer).
 

Tabby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,348
If one legend turns out to be OP in Arena but not anywhere else how would balance work? Would they dedicate more resources then? Like balance them separately rather than together?
 

Gotchaforce

Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,660
As excited as I am for all the new stuff, lately have had server issues I've not had in a long time. Lots of latency and the red latency icon appearing often in a match when it used to rarely ever show up. I'd rather take a normal amount of content and fixed servers, personally.

And yeah I know they don't really relate, just hoping servers are stronger next season.
 

Gotchaforce

Member
Oct 31, 2017
5,660
If one legend turns out to be OP in Arena but not anywhere else how would balance work? Would they dedicate more resources then? Like balance them separately rather than together?
I've been wondering about this, too. Going from BR to death match surely has to bring a lot of changes. Will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
 

btkadams

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,317
Surely Legends will be balanced separately for the game modes?
They will be if they need to be for sure. This is how most games operate when they have weapons or abilities in different modes.

I'm kind of doubting they would need to though. The arenas are expected to just be the same points of interest on the larger BR maps, so why would guns or abilities need to be adjusted? It seems like it would function the same as a final circle with 2 teams. I guess we don't know the extent of the mode though.
 

Sande

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,981
Any kind of proper deathmatch mode would be great. There are way too many people playing TDM (or lets's face it, FFA) in the game proper.

Isn't that the point of why they buffed it though? To give bad players a slight chance to win fights? Y'all really don't want bad players to get anything huh?

It's a mid tier gun for low to mid tier players. Eventually the mid tier player will realize that a Spitfire in a straight 1v1 situation is gonna straight up lose to so many other guns in the game. I got a R301? I would feel confident pushing a guy with a Spitfire. I will get punished if I don't hit my shots. That's on me. But more than likely I'll down him because an R301 is just better.
Yup. People need to realize not everything should always benefit the better twitch shooter. If that was the case, they might as well spawn everyone in an empty field with 100000 HP so you'd really see who can shoot.

Besides, any balance issue Spitfire might be part of is far more because of red armor. They never should've raised max HP.
 

Teamocil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,133
the spitfire is fine. I'm a bad player, but can regularly push a spitfire player and win the battle as long as I have a flatline or 301.

the rate of fire on it feels so damn low and the hip fire is mediocre imo. I'm not threatened by it.
 

Zularti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
92
I'm in a weird situation. I want to buy a hero, I'm still like 6 levels away from my first free one, but there are really two i'd like to have. I know the best way is probably buying the $39 hero pack but i really don't want to.
I'm too late in the season to finish the battlepass for the full refund, only rank 43. I think the $10 pack is the cheapest way to get a hero and i really dont mind throwing some money at the game since ive paid 0.

I'd imagine the answer is wait for season reset and just by the new battle pass but I really want someone new to play now ha. Any thoughts? I feel like in the endI should just by the 39$ pack.
 

SasaBassa

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,075
I'm in a weird situation. I want to buy a hero, I'm still like 6 levels away from my first free one, but there are really two i'd like to have. I know the best way is probably buying the $39 hero pack but i really don't want to.
I'm too late in the season to finish the battlepass for the full refund, only rank 43. I think the $10 pack is the cheapest way to get a hero and i really dont mind throwing some money at the game since ive paid 0.

I'd imagine the answer is wait for season reset and just by the new battle pass but I really want someone new to play now ha. Any thoughts? I feel like in the endI should just by the 39$ pack.

If you're on console and in North America maybe look for a discount edition pack online? I got a lifeline and a bloodhound edition for about 5 bucks each a few weeks ago, normally 20 a pop.
 

Murr

Banned
Dec 5, 2019
366
I only ever use the Spitfire to mulch people when they stubbornly refuse to get into cover. I always feel like I'm at a disadvantage using a Spitfire when I'm 1v1 and my opponent has some measure of skill.

Also, it feels really nice to notice improvements, 9 seasons in. I just magdumped two RE-45s back to back with no misses, and knocked 3 people on a hot drop while out of ammo and shields. Now I just need to get good at peppering in headshots! I still miss 70% of my Wingman shots though...
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,471
I only ever use the Spitfire to mulch people when they stubbornly refuse to get into cover. I always feel like I'm at a disadvantage using a Spitfire when I'm 1v1 and my opponent has some measure of skill.

Also, it feels really nice to notice improvements, 9 seasons in. I just magdumped two RE-45s back to back with no misses, and knocked 3 people on a hot drop while out of ammo and shields. Now I just need to get good at peppering in headshots! I still miss 70% of my Wingman shots though...

Your not disadvantaged, spitfire is meta and will beat most guns in many situations. People use the spitfire even at the highest levels of play.

The accuracy buffs and damage buff has made it a very strong contender, and when paired with the mag size, it's just crazy reliable, you can down an entire team very quickly. In terms of TTK it's definitely longer than the flatline or 301, but most players aren't going to one-clip you with those guns, most of the time, so the spitfire wins by default in a lot of engagements.

When you pair it with someone like Horizon, who is flying about and becomes very difficult to hit, you can create scenarios where it feels altogether unfair, as you can miss 60% of your shots and still get the kill, while minimising any damage you take with her aerial evasion.
 

Wild Card

Member
Oct 26, 2017
585
Your not disadvantaged, spitfire is meta and will beat most guns in many situations. People use the spitfire even at the highest levels of play.

The accuracy buffs and damage buff has made it a very strong contender, and when paired with the mag size, it's just crazy reliable, you can down an entire team very quickly. In terms of TTK it's definitely longer than the flatline or 301, but most players aren't going to one-clip you with those guns, most of the time, so the spitfire wins by default in a lot of engagements.

When you pair it with someone like Horizon, who is flying about and becomes very difficult to hit, you can create scenarios where it feels altogether unfair, as you can miss 60% of your shots and still get the kill, while minimising any damage you take with her aerial evasion.

Glad to see someone who recognized that gun for what it is
 

Love Machine

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,227
Tokyo, Japan
Does anyone have any motivational, non-condescending advice you'd give to those in a slump?

My usual squad mates (irl friends) have been bitching and moaning lately, attributing every loss to some random element they don't have control over, huffing and sighing over the mic and generally having a bad time of it.

If we get some momentum in our early games, normally we can end up having a good evening. But if we have a few bad drops or loot issues, they just shut down and we're crawling around the map never getting in fights, then inevitably die in the mid-late game.

It's getting a bit sad. Whenever I try to encourage/critique they either shrug it off sarcastically or get all defensive.
Anyone had any experience of this and managed to dig their way out of it?
 

Teamocil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,133
something needs to be done about mirage—when you have him on his team it's just visual clutter that shouldn't be there.

also, a bloodhound scan shouldn't mark those decoys. that's just craziness.
 
Mar 19, 2020
1,325
Spitfire defense force really out here, I think if they either revert damage back to last season or change the recoil back to what it was it wouldn't be quite as disgusting.
Yeah, at the very least it shouldn't be a laser out to far ranges. Or it's hipfire should be unviable. Or both! The perk of the gun should be it's clip! Not clip, damage, handling, and slowing targets that it hits.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,471
Does anyone have any motivational, non-condescending advice you'd give to those in a slump?

My usual squad mates (irl friends) have been bitching and moaning lately, attributing every loss to some random element they don't have control over, huffing and sighing over the mic and generally having a bad time of it.

If we get some momentum in our early games, normally we can end up having a good evening. But if we have a few bad drops or loot issues, they just shut down and we're crawling around the map never getting in fights, then inevitably die in the mid-late game.

It's getting a bit sad. Whenever I try to encourage/critique they either shrug it off sarcastically or get all defensive.
Anyone had any experience of this and managed to dig their way out of it?

I'll try and think but off the top of my head here's a few thoughts. First, one thing I would say is that if I'm having a run of bad games, we switch server region.

I don't think it makes a big difference but there's two kind of theoretical reasons why I do this:
  • If the game has suddenly decided that I should only play the best of the best, then switching region potentially disrupts that. Sometimes it does indeed feel like it works
  • The placebo effect, even if it doesn't work it gives us a sense of a 'fresh start'. You get the potential to gain momentum again.
It's most likely the latter, but possibly a little bit of the former. After all if you're losing matches back to back then you're probably queuing up with the same 120 ish players over and over, so forcing yourself into a fresh pool gives you a fresh chance.

Another thing I would say, is that you should try and minimise the risk that you're going to have a bad time. If you're hot dropping and taking a tonne of 50/50s, then you're going to have those days where you're going to lose those 50/50s 5 times in a row and feel like crap and want to get off. I always drop immediately down (because I want to fight fast) but I will only stick the landing if there's at max two other teams in a large POI. If there is one other team we get an even fight, if their are two I let them fight and third party. If there's 3+ it's too unpredictable so I land someplace else.

I also have specific spots that I always land in, and we don't like, follow a script, but by landing in those spots over and over we get a good feel for how they play, and learn to play them better and better each time. My win ratio is something like 30% and that's with sometimes solo queuing and also pushing every fight we can find post-landing. When I play I play for fun moments, cool clips, high action (aside the initial drop, where I avoid 50/50s as I don't get any fun out of dying without a gun).

If you want to borrow some of my landing spots and rotations they are:

KC
The houses outside Octane's Gauntlet (if contested find somewhere nearby, you're better off contesting half of airbase than contesting this tiny spot) > Push Octane's Gauntlet (take Octane's loot if it's uncontested though, then push airbase/salvage)
The houses between Caustic's and Watch Tower South > Then push Caustic's
Artillery (usually you get one team here, fight them) > Then push Containment)
Capacitor Top (building above on height, land here then push below), if this place is contested land at village to the north east then push into capacitor
Spotted lakes (land in buildings closest to the edge, failing that just land whichever side isn't contested) then push containment
Crashed ship (land at whichever set of buildings is uncontested then push containment)

Olympus
Ring buildings (land at the back middle then push one tower at a time, often we wipe 3 squads this way early) > Push Gardens
Hydrophonics (take half, kill the other team then push docks, if heavily contested try the spot below) > push estates after then go to wraith labs
Docks (usually contested by another team, take half and kill them, if contested by two teams land edge and push to third > push into Fight Night
Power Plant (or whatever its called, if contested take the back area which rarely is) > Push into fightnight
Solar array (usually contested but can accomodate 3 teams, take the safer side with your team) > Push Wraith labs

Obviously all of this is adaptive. After we drop we just push on any gunfire we here really, but those are our typical initial rotations. I think having a plan from the outset really helps.

Off drop in these contested spaces the other team doesn't 'take half' and spreads out then you want to pick the weaker side and stack one guy quickly then you have yourself an easy pick and a 2 vs 3. Often just getting that good start is all you need because a) you can snow ball off of it with good shields and guns and b) even if you die post having a good start, it doesn't feel terrible, you still did okay, got a few kills, it's easy to just roll into another game.

Lately I find myself getting frustrated too easily too to be honest, and blaming my team mates a lot. With that said, it's not like I'm blaming them wrongly, like yesterday for instance I remember saying to Vorlo that we lost a fight because he was looting a box while I was fighting, and what I said was completely true... but it kind of puts a negative tone on the evening to end up complaining. Sometimes I feel like I'm in a bad spot because if I don't call out their obviously questionable behaviour they're going to do it again, but if I do, it ends up just being a little frustrating all round because no one wants to play to be told they're doing something wrong all the time. So personally for me, sometimes I have to actively try and drop that attitude so that we can all have a little bit more fun, but it's all a balance because we want to get better at the game progressively too.
 
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Love Machine

Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,227
Tokyo, Japan
Thanks for the reply, Joe. Your input is always helpful.

Your KC rotations mostly line up with ours, and I think we generally perform better on that map in general.
Olympus, we're always dropping askew from where you suggest. E.g. Elysium instead of Hydro, Ship instead of Docks, etc.
But we more or less have the same system of gear up and move towards the first gunshots we hear.

I think one of our problems is with reading the drops. We're a stubborn bunch and often fully commit to a POI regardless of how many trails are heading there. I'll try to incorporate your advice and suggest bailing out if there are 3+ teams contesting.

Lately I find myself getting frustrated too easily too to be honest, and blaming my team mates a lot. With that said, it's not like I'm blaming them wrongly, like yesterday for instance I remember saying to Vorlo that we lost a fight because he was looting a box while I was fighting, and what I said was completely true... but it kind of puts a negative tone on the evening to end up complaining. Sometimes I feel like I'm in a bad spot because if I don't call out their obviously questionable behaviour they're going to do it again, but if I do, it ends up just being a little frustrating all round because no one wants to play to be told they're doing something wrong all the time. So personally for me, sometimes I have to actively try and drop that attitude so that we can all have a little bit more fun, but it's all a balance because we want to get better at the game progressively too.
This resonates with me a lot, and I'm glad you put it out there. I don't call out questionable behaviour very often, as I get that it can damage morale, but sometimes it's necessary. Also gotta work on my own attitude and try to keep spirits/energy up. I'll also suggest trying that server switch next time we find ourselves spiraling. Cheers!
 

zoabs

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
May 7, 2018
1,673
I have a theory they're trying to power creep all the weapons so the TTK is shorter in general without causing outrage.


I don't mean that in a bad way, but the 25 less health was TOO much of a change when they tried, so I'd be down to split the difference between what we currently have and what we had during that experiment.
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,471
I have a theory they're trying to power creep all the weapons so the TTK is shorter in general without causing outrage.


I don't mean that in a bad way, but the 25 less health was TOO much of a change when they tried, so I'd be down to split the difference between what we currently have and what we had during that experiment.

Controversial opinion but red shields were actually bad for the game imo, because they made guns like the r99, 301 and re45 far less reliable.

Of those, without mags only the 301 can kill red shields and at mid range most players won't manage that level of accuracy. In some ways the higher TTK inadvertently lowers the skill ceiling by pushing folks towards more forgiving weapons like the flatline and spitfire which don't have the concern of whether you can one clip someone.

Right now I think the flatline is the best gun in the game. It has 301 damage at range (albeit a trickier recoil pattern) and again, extremely forgiving damage output, hitting something like 500 damage with mags.

If I could redesign the game I would have folks spawn with white shields at 100 hp 25 shield then have blue at 50, purp at 75 and red at 200. I'd also remove helmets from the game and just make a decision on how much damage each weapons headshot should deal. Could also change helmets to ability regen buffs (5/10/15%) if that felt balanced.
 

Sou Da

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,738
Lowkey Path/Gibby/Rampart is a good final ring team

image.png
 

Miker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,016
Had a great match yesterday. Super hot drop where we won some really scrappy fights where I had a 30-30 with maybe 10-20 rounds at any given time and an RE-45. Apex's prolonged gunfights are unmatched.

2g8kjqRl.png
 

zoabs

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
May 7, 2018
1,673
Controversial opinion but red shields were actually bad for the game imo, because they made guns like the r99, 301 and re45 far less reliable.

Of those, without mags only the 301 can kill red shields and at mid range most players won't manage that level of accuracy. In some ways the higher TTK inadvertently lowers the skill ceiling by pushing folks towards more forgiving weapons like the flatline and spitfire which don't have the concern of whether you can one clip someone.

Right now I think the flatline is the best gun in the game. It has 301 damage at range (albeit a trickier recoil pattern) and again, extremely forgiving damage output, hitting something like 500 damage with mags.

If I could redesign the game I would have folks spawn with white shields at 100 hp 25 shield then have blue at 50, purp at 75 and red at 200. I'd also remove helmets from the game and just make a decision on how much damage each weapons headshot should deal. Could also change helmets to ability regen buffs (5/10/15%) if that felt balanced.


I agree with all of these points. Red Shields made sense when evo shields were in the loot pool WITH normal shields giving it a long-term investment advantage, but now there's not really a point and while I do believe teams that win fights should be rewarded, fighting against two red shield players (or more) at once is such a dragged out experience that a) it attracts third parties and b) it's just unfun to have engagements drawn out that long.

I also hope they remove helmets, or at least change it to what you said. Headshots feel so unsatisfying in this game and that's largely due to helmets. It also dilutes the loot pool. Nothing less satisfying than finding a better helmet.


I feel like if *I* could balance the game, I'd remove helmets and Red Shields and standardize all HP on all armors and then either a) have rarity decreases ability cooldown or b) make all armors 200 HP with armor regen but buff all weapons to make it have the same TTK as 175 HP. And then rarity decreases the armor regen startup for both "cracked" and "uncracked" by .5 or 1 second each.


Landing on gray shields and then having an enemy land on purple shields is the worst feeling of all time.