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benj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,833
You mean the pretentious distinction of "I'm not one of them!"? It's literally virtue signaling, worthless. My mom has a little game on her phone, she's a gamer. See where I'm going? People just like feeling superior about how much of a gamer they aren't.
When coalitions are founded on a shared identity category and harassment campaigns are undertaken with the intention of 'advocating for' that identity category, it's perfectly reasonable to not want to opt in to that category. A lot of anti-dev abuse comes with the tagline that the speaker is 'speaking for gamers'—self-identifying as a gamer means including yourself in that voice.

Maybe the right question is why you feel so driven to insist upon what other people identify as?
 

VeePs

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,369
Well he didn't outright say he endorses badmouthing the individuals behind the game. I agree, it's BS and needs to be criticized and I don't mind if that will be obnoxious to read, but it's a problem if it goes from "What the hell, Respawn?" to "Hey, you developer who I just doxxed, fuck you" etc.

I mean he said "Era will excuse anything to own the gamers". Most of the comments here aren't saying "The Respawn developers are right and loot boxes are okay", they are saying "Respawn developers are right about the gaming community".

Era has never been a fan of loot boxes, I can dig multiple topics up on that.

But this thread isn't exclusively about the Apex Legend's microtransactions, it's also about the commentary the Respawn developers had about the gaming community. And yea, the gaming community, a community I'm part of, is toxic as fuck.

That's a fact.

And until more of us acknowledge it it will never change.

And yes, loot boxes suck. I really feel like Respawn can do better. But constrictive criticism should be done, not verbal harrasment and bullshit tantrums.
 

Luckett_X

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,410
Leeds, UK
I am not a Water Drinker, but I do drink water every now and then.

Let's perhaps establish that using a hobby verb with a capital letter as a catch all for some sort of villain is fucking stupid. There are dickheads and non-dickheads. That's all there is.

This feels like someone losing their cool.

Theres probably hundreds of people on this forum that work with customers in their jobs that they think are dicks yet they manage to keep their tongues in their mouths.

What it honestly feels like is the dev not being happy they were forced into 'apologizing' this week at all, and coming in to rebalance the power structure they perceive how this should all shake out under. Especially when the peasants weren't settling down as fast as they liked.

And I get it. You give these Water Drinkers an inch, they'll start a change.org petition for a mile. Then that becomes the expected outcome over every little insignificant thing, and you're no longer a gamedev but someone trying to balance a thousand wailing contradictory demands in an impossible nightmare puzzle.

But the reality is they keep fucking up Apex content updates so monumentally, when is that pointing finger going to turn away from Entitled Water Drinkers and maybe at the people within the company which keep making such bad calls?
 
Sep 14, 2018
4,625
Did I miss something? Why is everyone with the dev? Since when is toxicity combated with toxicity? Also I dont play Apex but that monetization is terrible and once again EA is setting the low bar lower than before. I guess Era is fully pwning the "gamers" regardless, really showed them.

I first noticed this a few months ago, it's some kind of backlash to the backlash. Which I don't entirely disagree with but it has taken the form of a strange corporate adulation where publishers can do no wrong when faced with criticism by quote unquote gamers.

When coalitions are founded on a shared identity category and harassment campaigns are undertaken with the intention of 'advocating for' that identity category, it's perfectly reasonable to not want to opt in to that category. A lot of anti-dev abuse comes with the tagline that the speaker is 'speaking for gamers'—self-identifying as a gamer means including yourself in that voice.

Maybe the right question is why you feel so driven to insist upon what other people identify as?

Really? Self identifying as a gamer means I include myself in that voice? Tell me what else I do...

People who play games are gamers, that's pretty simple, what connotations others may have about the term gamer don't matter to me, and anyone can identify or not as a gamer all they like, I don't care. Maybe it's just more convenient to say "gamer" than online fanbases and players of x games that interact with developers? or something. Anyway, I was only calling out the virtue signaling, because like I said, it's worthless.
 
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Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
I attribute it mostly to this article: https://www.pcgamer.com/behind-the-addictive-psychology-and-seductive-art-of-loot-boxes/
I've written extensively on Era about why I dislike the impact of this article, and I can dig that out if you'd like, but the tl;dr is that it's very easy to claim competence on something that works after the fact. There's a chicken and egg effect here because Overwatch would've made bank regardless of whether or not they did all the little bells and whistles they talk about in that article (as I've personally seen in products I've worked on and A/B tested small bells and whistles on). But Blizzard DOESN'T actually A/B test things like that (and are therefore unable to prove effectiveness), so the fact that they're even claiming competence on these decisions is proof of incompetence in the industry.


I replied with a tongue because you clearly misread the post you quoted and I didn't want to make a big deal of it. There wasn't a question to answer because you misread what I said in the first place. Again, I never claimed Valve was ethical. I said in my very first post that they are the company I'd call out as being UNETHICAL.
I greatly apologies then, since I was in fact mistaken. Long day as everything else was said based on that initial mistaken supposition.
 

Death Penalty

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,307
I first noticed this a few months ago, it's some kind of backlash to the backlash. Which I don't entirely disagree with but it has taken the form of a strange corporate adulation where publishers can do no wrong when faced with criticism by quote unquote gamers.
The general sentiment in this thread is "the monetization is bad, but harassment is never okay and devs are human beings". There's no corporate adulation, it's just that the toxicity of the base towards the devs is the far greater of the two evils.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,240
please download and play our game free of charge you fucking freeloader
i legit lol'd.

Cus yeah calling people freeloaders for not spending money on a mass audience f2p game is kind of hilarious. Like Respawn, the only reason it even got popular was because it was free. You think millions of people would have given Apex Legends a chance if it was $20? Lmao.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,026
I first noticed this a few months ago, it's some kind of backlash to the backlash. Which I don't entirely disagree with but it has taken the form of a strange corporate adulation where publishers can do no wrong when faced with criticism by quote unquote gamers.

The people making those decisions aren't even in the front lines. The frontline/devs who have little to no control over how it works or the schizo strategy of going out with the worst monetizaiton scheme first then apologize later , exposing their own staff to abuse.

As I've said upthread, this is the typical way governments sit out protests. Wait for something outrageous to happen in the protest camp, and paint themselves as the victims to shift blame on the protestors. Meanwhile underlying issues are not addressed.
 

Ushay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,351
Sorry but he isn't entirely wrong. We've collectively earned this reputation. Well not me personally, I can't stand the toxic culture at all.
 

benzopil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,150
You mean the pretentious distinction of "I'm not one of them!"? It's literally virtue signaling, worthless. My mom has a little game on her phone, she's a gamer. See where I'm going? People just like feeling superior about how much of a gamer they aren't.
There are two types of gamers:
1) gamers
2) gamers who came up with their own definition of that word
 

Aldi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,634
United Kingdom
If Epic said the same thing, there would be a meltdown in here.

Yep,

The biggest issue I have here is that they haven't singled out specific abuse or people making threats, they've just gone right in and made it feel like anyone who complained about the prices of the new skins 'dicks' or 'asshats'.

Hell, I've previously complained about their prices and the fact that the event is a huge fucking grind and is obviously a money play, so I must be one of the ass-hats or dicks too.
 

IvorB

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,995
Did I miss something? Why is everyone with the dev? Since when is toxicity combated with toxicity? Also I dont play Apex but that monetization is terrible and once again EA is setting the low bar lower than before. I guess Era is fully pwning the "gamers" regardless, really showed them.

People here tend to hero-worship video game developers for some reason as well as possess a strange self-loathing for the gaming audience. So it's not that surprising.
 

Iadien

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,370
I hate monetization surrounding most free to play games, but I understand that it's a great way for some companies to make money. I still play a few free to play games, but like the dev mentioned, I'm one of the people that rarely spends a dime in any of them.

If Epic said the same thing, there would be a meltdown in here.

Most definitely.
 

bulletyen

Member
Nov 12, 2017
1,309
Nobody is every 100% right in a situation like this. The devs who work so hard on a game only to be repeated harrassed and insulted by players have a right to be angry and respond in kind... but responding to toxicity and outrage with toxicity and outrage is not gonna help anyone.

And players are right in their anger of increasingly exploitative practices by corporations who prey on their love of the hobby, yet hurting the developers when much the hated practices were likely directed from the top down is also not gonna help anyone.

So in other words, business as usual. Carry on.
 

aiswyda

Member
Aug 11, 2018
3,093
The question, to me, isn't 'whether game devs are the only individuals beholden to things on their personal twitter.' I think that there is a commonly-accepted, industry-agnostic expectation that certain views would be met with professional consequences—that, regardless of industry, if one were to post snuff films starring themselves on their Twitter, that there might be some professional blowback for that.

My point is that the expectation placed on game devs is substantially different from that of other fields, as exemplified in the Jessica Price thing. The threshold that is seen to justify or demand professional blowback is considerably lower for game devs than for other fields. That doesn't make game devs the only individuals who can see professional consequences for publicly expressing individual opinions, but I do think that there is a very common belief on the part of gaming audiences that game devs are, at all hours of the day, through any available outlet, regardless of the context, representatives of their employers. That, I believe, is exacerbated for game devs compared to other comparable industries.

I don't agree with that. There are a lot of professions in which you have to be especially careful with your social media profile. In fact I'm often blown away with how much game devs can openly post on public accounts with their names tied to them. I think the Jessica Price issue seems more like a misogyny issue than a game dev issue, to be honest. A male game dev would not have received such poor support from his company, would not have been expected to play nice, and would not have been as violently harassed.

The fact that the employees at respawn who posted this were not immediately fired tells me that the standards are less harsh here than other industries. I don't think they should be fired—but I know in my industry, posting even a mild version of this would have resulted in me being let go or some form of serious consequence.
 

AntiMacro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,139
Alberta
Headline should be "Apex Legends developers spark outrage after calling SOME gamers "dicks", "ass-hats"and "freeloaders""

The only people that should be 'outraged' by this are dicks and ass-hats. The freeloaders thing wasn't even a slam against people.
 

samred

Amico fun conversationalist
Member
Nov 4, 2017
2,586
Seattle, WA
I don't know. This seems like a problem with mutiplayer games in general. Developers of retail games are also going at it with their toxic customers. Overwatch, Destiny, Battlefield. They are definitely not immune. Each of the has had different post launch monetization methods as well. Loot boxes, expansions, new maps. No one has found a method that makes people and I don't think anyone ever will.

Fair.
 

requiem

Member
Dec 3, 2017
1,448
People here tend to hero-worship video game developers for some reason as well as possess a strange self-loathing for the gaming audience. So it's not that surprising.
And yet they act exactly like those 'gamers' (implying they're a separate group from this forum when they're not) whenever Epic is mentioned or in review threads.
 

Balmung421

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,930
I am impressed how a dev getting annoyed for a few minutes and being a little sarcastic grabbed this much attention.

I am with the devs on this one, however, and as a developer myself this just further solidifies why I believe gamers are just awful, awful people.
 

Megatron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,445
Sure, I think, just like fortnite, their monetization method definitely warrants scrutinization. 12 dollars a skin and 170 dollars for a full set is...too high, let's put it that way, it's just too high.
If a price for optional skins can be too high, can a price for a game be too low? It's too high in a $60 game. For optional, non-gameplay affecting skins in a game that costs nothing to play, it's fine. They have to pay for their game somehow and nobody needs to buy them.
 

Detail

Member
Dec 30, 2018
2,947
I didn't like the way the person worded his message but I can't disagree with the underlying issues.

Some developers and publishers have become exceptionally greedy, it's one of the very reasons creativity is being crushed in this industry and crunch exists (which is something we should all stand against as consumers.)

On the other hand, people who play games have become more entitled and think they deserve continuous updates, DLC and free content and when they don't get it, they do behave in a very toxic manner and they don't consider the time and work that has to go into creating these things for them.

So I say that the issue is with both parties and it clearly needs to change because right now developer/publisher relations with consumers is probably at the lowest I have ever seen it and not just in the games industry.

I feel like Microsoft is a company right now at least trying to change that under Phil Spencer with a somewhat pro-consumer approach, whilst on the other hand we have companies like EA and Epic who unfortunately take a more anti-consumer approach to things.

No company is perfect obviously, they all want to make money but I do believe there are ways to make money that still benefit the consumer and don't harm your PR.

I also believe that consumers need to exhibit more patience with developers and publishers, by all means call them out when they are doing anti-consumer things but don't expect new content every single week.

I don't know, it's all a big mess sadly at this point, I think mobile gaming introduced this mess and the ball has been rolling ever since, free to play, microtransactions etc, gaming was better before all of this imo.
 

Biske

Member
Nov 11, 2017
8,273
Ahahahaha neither side is wrong in this case, but it's all hilarious.

It's like when you are frustrated at your job and fantasizing of just letting it all out, and then you do, for all the world to see.
 

Anko

Member
Oct 26, 2017
194
YuriLand
I'm just annoyed that legitimate concerns are buried underneath all this toxicity from both sides. It happened with epic games store exclusivity deals. It happened with ooblets. A section of the audience show themselves to be toxic and suddenly that's all we are. Nothing anyone else says matters anymore.

Call me whatever names everyone likes to throw around these days. I for one will continue to vote with my wallet and refuse to be treated like shit. That's not entitlement. That's my right to my hard earned cash.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,953
Houston
"we observed that having it crazy high then providing a 'sale" doesn't move the needle so we'll keep it high as fuck for the off chance someone does buy it anyway"

brilliant strat
 

Deathman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
599
Saying something derogatory and then going "no offense" doesn't really play.


If that's the case then 90% of the responses in that Reddit thread should be called out too right?

That reddit thread is a dumpster fire and it astounds me how long the dev's kept their cool. They apologized and then continued to get shit on the whole way through the thread and then called someone on it. Then people shit on them worse. How in any way is that right?

It once again shows that "gamers" are entitled assholes who think dev's should be pissing out content as fast as possible with no care to how it gets paid for or how it get's made.. It's why companies like Epic can treat their staff like shit with constant crunch with zero backlash
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,695
Both the reddit users and the developers look bad but so are those in this thread responding.

Like let's look at a simple thing.

The skins are $18 and the loot boxes are $7.

But they aren't directly 18 and 7, because you need to buy the premium currency. So to buy a $7 loot box you need to pay $10 which will leave you will $3 worth of coins left over.

If you want to buy the $18 skin you need to pay $20, so you will still be left over with some currency.

That left over currency is there, designed to get people who can't help themselves to try and buy more to reach 0.

Like it's really easy for a lot of people in this thread to go: "Just don't buy it" when they aren't the ones who are falling into these traps. Like did we not just have a thread about someone spending literally tens of thousand of dollars on Fire Emblem Heroes?

But no, I guess since some gamers were very mean to the developers, they are suddenly absolved of everything.
 

Trejo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,830
Good for these brave and strong developers for standing up against those vile scum known as Gamers. You'll be hard pressed to find a more disgusting and repudiating creature than those pieces of filth. That's why you would never in a million years find me touching one of those nasty, corrupting, evil videogames or god forbid, posting in a gaming message board on the internet lest I be mistaken for one of those toxic examples of subhuman degenerates.

/s, if it wasn't obvious.
 

Deathman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
599
Both the reddit users and the developers look bad but so are those in this thread responding.

Like let's look at a simple thing.

The skins are $18 and the loot boxes are $7.

But they aren't directly 18 and 7, because you need to buy the premium currency. So to buy a $7 loot box you need to pay $10 which will leave you will $3 worth of coins left over.

If you want to buy the $18 skin you need to pay $20, so you will still be left over with some currency.

That left over currency is there, designed to get people who can't help themselves to try and buy more to reach 0.

Like it's really easy for a lot of people in this thread to go: "Just don't buy it" when they aren't the ones who are falling into these traps. Like did we not just have a thread about someone spending literally tens of thousand of dollars on Fire Emblem Heroes?

But no, I guess since some gamers were very mean to the developers, they are suddenly absolved of everything.

You've literally described every game with MTX currency and to be honest I'm real sick of people talking about "falling into these traps". It's not a trap. You can see it very clearly and choose not to do it. It is not a company's job to police how you spend your money. That is why you are a decision making adult.

I'm not the biggest fan of micro transactions but I make the decision not to use them except if I really want something at which point I buy it and that is that. I don't look at the 200 coins or whatever left over and go "Man I REALLY need to get that down to zero"

apex coins apparently can't pay for thick skin

Such a bad take.
 

Kalentan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,695
You've literally described every game with MTX currency and to be honest I'm real sick of people talking about "falling into these traps". It's not a trap. You can see it very clearly and choose not to do it. It is not a company's job to police how you spend your money. That is why you are a decision making adult.

Yeah, FOR YOU. How many more stories do we need to have of people spending tons of money on MTX to get something. But I guess there's no people with gambling addictions because it's so easy to see.

So with your mindset they should go right ahead. Hell, they should double and triple down on it. After all we're all adults. It's easy for us to not partake.
 

Soupman Prime

The Fallen
Nov 8, 2017
8,572
Boston, MA
He's right, gamers are trash and entitled, there's nothing wrong with that.

The gaming community says worse things to developers, i stand with the Apex dev in this case.
There's 23 pages and I'm not gonna read every one but after actually reading the posts I can agree with you, especially with the gaming community saying worse. He's not even all wrong but as a developer he's just supposed to take it and can never dish some truths out.
 

Deathman

Member
Oct 25, 2017
599
Yeah, FOR YOU. How many more stories do we need to have of people spending tons of money on MTX to get something. But I guess there's no people with gambling addictions because it's so easy to see.

So with your mindset they should go right ahead. Hell, they should double and triple down on it. After all we're all adults. It's easy for us to not partake.

Alright then, shut down all online betting, bookmakers, casino's etc and while you're at it close down all bars and all fast food because people get addicted and they clearly can't make their own decisions.

Addictions are horrible and something that anyone who has one should seek help for. I know I did. However it is not the company's responsibility to do that. Only in gaming do people decide that they should and it's fucking stupid.

Also yes, you're an adult so you're aware of your decision making process and have an awareness of what you're doing. It is not a games company's responsibility to police what you do.