Where was the joke? I said that Valve are unethical. You asked me how they're ethical. I told you again that I said they're unethical.Do you seriously need me to answer that? Question. A serious response. Doesn't reply tons serious question with a one sentence wore joke. It's sad I have to tell you this.
Well, I post here because Iurking on Gaf is what inspired me to get into the industry a decade ago. I'm just hoping that someone can read the informed bits (among the snark and salt that make up my other posts) and get some inkling of what the industry is actually about 🤷Gaming forums/social media aren't meant for discussion. Don't know why you post here, Nome. People are very clearly set in their ways and just want to be upset at things.
You can criticize without insultingEra will excuse anything to 'own the gamers'. The monetisation in question was predatory and deserved every ounce of criticism it received.
To be clear, I'm not talking about, like, overt racist invective or calls to genocide. I absolutely feel that there's a common expectation for people to not express loathsome, dehumanizing views on public-facing twitters, regardless of industry.
I'm talking specifically about behavior in line with Jessica Price's. I do not believe that that would be met with an expectation of punishment in any other industry I've worked in—I don't think it would even occur to anyone to react that way.
Yes, how did it get this way anyway?Era tends to subscribe to certain set of myths around game development, but one particularly harmful one is that developers are extremely competent. That every decision they make is thought-out and backed by research or data, and not just something they squeeze in because they have a personal suspicion, because some team lead just has a big ego, or a really successful other game did it so we should do it too (from personal experience, this last bit has guided 90% of my design decisions). There's an incredible of amount of trial and error in the games industry, as evidenced by the sheer number of studios that make bad decisions and go under.
I mean, I'm a game designer who works in monetization and dabbles in product management (it's all in my profile!), and I'm telling you how things are in my experience.
If that doesn't convince you, and you're still trying to tell me how my job is done, then I'm not sure what will convince you, or if you're willing to be convinced.
The Devs come across way better than the players in those posts, and the "freeloaders" comment in particular sounds like the Dev is genuinely happy a ton of people get to play their game without spending money.
i wish i had the confidence to tell someone who works in the area i'm criticizing that i know more about their job than they doI mean, I'm a game designer who works in monetization and dabbles in product management (it's all in my profile!), and I'm telling you how things are in my experience.
If that doesn't convince you, and you're still trying to tell me how my job is done, then I'm not sure what will convince you, or if you're willing to be convinced.
You replied with a tongue. Dude your clearly not serious with any part of this. The mere face you can't admit you made a joke while having an emoji end you response is just really embarrassing for you. I'm sorry I'm done.Where was the joke? I said that Valve are unethical. You asked me how they're ethical. I told you again that I said they're unethical.
Well, I post here because Iurking on Gaf is what inspired me to get into the industry a decade ago. I'm just hoping that someone can read the informed bits (among the snark and salt that make up my other posts) and get some inkling of what the industry is actually about 🤷
I think "about someone who wasn't evil" is tipping your hand a bit, but yes, I do not think there is a general expectation that sharing that on a personal twitter would be a fireable offense in an otherwise-similar context.You're telling me that saying, "I'm glad this guy died" about someone who wasn't evil is acceptable in other industries?
Exactly. You can rely on the processes and standardized in-house or in-conglomerate feedback procedures but it requires a certain kind of motivation to go and actually be good at community management IMO. You'll have your community managers, those are good sometimes, but you need to show that you're actually interested in engaging with your player base's values and experiences with the game you put out to them beyond some pre-written corporate messaging or monetization goal, or that's when the tide turns and players start to feel like they're just there to be dicked around.Agree, and this is exactly why user research and community departments are so important to keep developers in touch with player needs. Unfortunately, user research is a luxury for most developers, and the effectiveness of community is highly dependent on how much the developer (or publisher) itself values that feedback.
To be clear, I'm not talking about, like, overt racist invective or calls to genocide. I absolutely feel that there's a common expectation for people to not express loathsome, dehumanizing views on public-facing twitters, regardless of industry.
I'm talking specifically about behavior in line with Jessica Price's. I do not believe that that would be met with an expectation of punishment in any other industry I've worked in—I don't think it would even occur to anyone to react that way.
Era will excuse anything to 'own the gamers'. The monetization in question was predatory and deserved every ounce of criticism it received.
I think "about someone who wasn't evil" is tipping your hand a bit, but yes, I do not think there is a general expectation that sharing that on a personal twitter would be a fireable offense in an otherwise-similar context.
Your clearly not taking this very serious discussion seriously. Which doesn't paint a great picture of your position or purpose here.
Often associated with 'bums' and used by the right-wing propaganda machine to dehumanize people who they claim don't contribute to society. (love you guys tho)Freeloader always has a negative connotation and pretending otherwise is silly.
The question, to me, isn't 'whether game devs are the only individuals beholden to things on their personal twitter.' I think that there is a commonly-accepted, industry-agnostic expectation that certain views would be met with professional consequences—that, regardless of industry, if one were to post snuff films starring themselves on their Twitter, that there might be some professional blowback for that.Like I said in my edit, I am not sure what the Jessica Price issue is, but from a google search it seems to be the whole GW2 fiasco (if that's the wrong one let me know). I don't agree with the company's response, but your initial comment was that she was tweeting on her "personal twitter" which lead to the whole confusion regarding game devs being the only individuals beholden to things said on their personal twitter. Which isn't true.
Again, I'm not saying I agree with their response. I absolutely agree with her statement on the matter.
I attribute it mostly to this article: https://www.pcgamer.com/behind-the-addictive-psychology-and-seductive-art-of-loot-boxes/
I replied with a tongue because you clearly misread the post you quoted and I didn't want to make a big deal of it. There wasn't a question to answer because you misread what I said in the first place. Again, I never claimed Valve was ethical. I said in my very first post that they are the company I'd call out as being UNETHICAL.You replied with a tongue. Dude your clearly not serious with any part of this. The mere face you can't admit you made a joke while having an emoji end you response is just really embarrassing for you. I'm sorry I'm done.
I'm just saying that while some people are reasonable in their criticism of whatever happens in the industry, many aren't and the vitriol aimed at gaming devs can get on some of their nerves as they lash back.I continue to do this. As I have been. You will not find a reasonable answer to "why lootboxes exist" other than to profit farm from gambling addicts and people with impulse control problems.
The Iron Crown Event pushes the limit on an already shady business practice.
You replied with a tongue. Dude your clearly not serious with any part of this. The mere face you can't admit you made a joke while having an emoji end you response is just really embarrassing for you. I'm sorry I'm done.
Truth hurts. I don't consider myself a gamer. I just play games.
Yeah it's a complicated affair. "Know your audience", as they say.Exactly. You can rely on the processes and standardized in-house or in-conglomerate feedback procedures but it requires a certain kind of motivation to go and actually be good at community management IMO. You'll have your community managers, those are good sometimes, but you need to show that you're actually interested in engaging with your player base's values and experiences with the game you put out to them beyond some pre-written corporate messaging or monetization goal, or that's when the tide turns and players start to feel like they're just there to be dicked around.
But I mean reacting to the community is harder than I can even imagine I think. It's not just about reading the room on the internet boards, you have to think about how what you do returns a profit on investment and you also have to disperse the feedback you get into tangible development goals within a team, so that whole issue: "communication" is a big task. I'm not really sure the Reddit responses from Respawn were the best move or maybe it's just their language. I think the biggest issue is simply those new lootboxes because it looks to me like they have relied on entirely cold-hard facts about maximizing profit and that says nothing about whether it maximized or mitigated player happiness with the product. If it does, color me surprised, unless it was taken from some casual mobile game, in which case, this is Apex Legends, a hardcore shooter for fans of MOBAs and Call of Duty and Overwatch. You have to be extremely considerate about what you tell your consumer-base with the way you choose to monetize their interest.
And honestly I think the most shoved-under-the-rug part of the monetization debate is the issue of even being met with game-UI that reminds you to open your wallet. A lot of this would be UX but with monetization experts involved, but basically in order to do monetization you need to create the systems of the game around it, and it usually leads to pinging the player with notifications upon booting or something, and if you're met with "Buy this lootbox combo for 200 dollars!" that's even enough sometimes... that is enough that as a player you will start to feel disgusted with the way you are spending your time even if you don't end up paying. It all depends on how it is communicated and I think too often monetization desires lead to inherent reward systems in games that ends up pulling the player in their t-shirt to remind them that they can feel really good if they spend some more money.
I will never not find this disgusting about how video games have become in AAA.
I'm always curious about this one—do you really struggle to see the distinction here?
So what?
This post is excusing harassment to own Era.Era will excuse anything to 'own the gamers'. The monetisation in question was predatory and deserved every ounce of criticism it received.
It can be a matter of degrees. The only thing I would be wary off when I see the numbers go in pleastantly is that if people are already complaining will this success really be sustainable, even if you count on retaining new players when the old crowd gives up? The big risk of monetization is creating a "Wii" fad.and then to have players ask you to dial it back. Oftentimes the most intrusive thing is what will get you the most obvious results
Are you illiterate? You misread his original post and have spent subsequent posts shoving your foot in your mouth even deeper.Your clearly not taking this very serious discussion seriously. Which doesn't paint a great picture of your position or purpose here.
Well he didn't outright say he endorses badmouthing the individuals behind the game. I agree, it's BS and needs to be criticized and I don't mind if that will be obnoxious to read, but it's a problem if it goes from "What the hell, Respawn?" to "Hey, you developer who I just doxxed, fuck you" etc.
It's a shame too, we treat each other awful for preferences in entertainment because a is wrong to like b. Then we attack the people that make the products we supposedly enjoy consuming. We can be critical of each other and devs without resorting to hyperbole, condescension, and out right vitriol. I think they are both wrong for acting the way they did but the "gamers" aren't trying to have an honest discussion. They are just trying to yell at them and air their grievances without legitimate conversation.Very unprofessional, but honesely can you blame them? We are a toxic community and I can only imagine what insult they have to read every day.
Insult a dev ---- dev insults you back ---- pikachu face
The harassment is probably minuscule compared to what happens within the entertainment industries (gaming, movies, tv shows and so on)This feels like someone losing their cool.
Theres probably hundreds of people on this forum that work with customers in their jobs that they think are dicks yet they manage to keep their tongues in their mouths.
You make no senseSo I know who people who just play games but don't care enough about them to talk about them online, and yet they would use the term gamer to describe themselves because a gamer is someone who plays games. That's what it means.
I'm always curious about this one—do you really struggle to see the distinction here?
You mean the pretentious distinction of "I'm not one of them!"? It's literally virtue signaling, worthless. My mom has a little game on her phone, she's a gamer. See where I'm going? People just like feeling superior about how much of a gamer they aren't.