Doesn't excuse pricing items for maximum whale milking, rather than pricing them fairly though. Everyone is right in this exchange. Gamers are toxic but so are modern gaming business practices. Dicks all around.
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Apex Legends developers spark outrage after calling gamers “dicks”, “ass-hats”and “freeloaders”
- Thread starter lush
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Yes this is my take too. EA and Respawn knew what would happen the day they launched this 'event' and it happened. Now a shitstorm of epic proportions is brewing.
I don't think I've encountered self-loathing at the levels seen in this thread so far. Good lord.
People flying off the rails and flaming, harassing, belittling, snarking, and in some cases threatening developers over something they don't like in a video game is far, far, far, far, far more offensive to me than a video game not appearing on my preferred platform or not having my preferred pricing model for its items, so, yeah, I'm not going to identify with the former crowd. This sort of toxic behavior is also the norm now rather than the exception so I tend to come to the defense of people whose only crime is being a game developer and not doing a thing that gamers liked and are being harassed for it because that's really the only side I can come down on.
Imagine thinking no one is allowed to complain about $20 video game skins. Future of gaming not looking very bright.
You don't have to agree with the monetization. But harassing devs is not acceptable.
It is not professional BUT quite a few gamers are entitled pricks and they insult the company I'm working for every single day.
And yes, sometimes it gets personal (to a point where some even stalked our LinkedIn pages)
Can't really disagree with Respawn here, sorry.
And yes, sometimes it gets personal (to a point where some even stalked our LinkedIn pages)
Can't really disagree with Respawn here, sorry.
This is like watching 6 year olds fight in the schoolyard, this is terrible on so many levels. If you can't grow up then you deserve eachother.
Of course you can complain. But do you complain to people face to face with insults and swearing? How would customer service desks respond if you did? Anonymity brings out the worst in people.
100% this.
Gamers largely are a mob of frothing-at-the-mouth rage goblins. The shit that devs (or any reasonably visible gaming-related person for that matter, compounded by orders of magnitude if they are in any way divergent from the white/male/cis paradigm) receive on a daily basis is completely bonkers.
At this point, it doesn't really matter whether there is a kernel of justified criticism underneath, or if said visible gaming-related person is behaving "professionally". We shouldn't be focussing on that. I'm honestly super over this "we, the consumers" thing.
the community is embarrassing, the pr is embarrassing, the business model is embarrassing... yeah, no one comes out of this looking good. bold move, I'll give em that
If the skins were priced at $100 I'd still defend the devs against people harassing them.
You know, in my day, when something was too expensive for me to be interested in buying it, I just didn't buy it. I didn't seek out the people who made it and harass them. It's a new time, I guess, but it's an aspect of this time I really don't enjoy.
But we are on a gaming forum to discuss not only these serious instances of harassment of devs. Saying nothing else matters because one is more serious than the other is nonsense and you know it, especially when people could make the argument that the exploitative nature of microtransactions is just as bad as the toxic part of the gaming fanbase.
The toxic behaviour is getting more frequent because these companies get greedier and greedier. The more shitty decisions they make, the more backlash there is, and the more backlash there is, the more opportunities the asshole gamers have to be assholes.
There's also always this notion of individuals getting harassed. That's often the case, I would never deny that, but here? In this situation with Respawn? Nah. We had this with the Pokemon situation, too. Tweeting how you think about a dev's decision isn't harassment.
Recently every disagreement with a gaming company seems to be seen as harassment and it's not doing anything but muddying the meaning of when someone actually gets harassed. Someone saying shit like "you guys suck I hate you" is toxic as fuck, but it's not harassment towards anyone in particular.
Looking for a single instance (just one!) of a game developer not named Valve hiring a psychologist to work on monetization.
Extra super bonus points if they work at a major publisher as every time this rumor gets brought up it's in a EA/ATVI thread.
The thread is about what Respawn said. Within the scope of the thread, I agree with them and I'm sympathetic with them when it comes to the harassment and worse they've received just for doing their jobs.. If you want to discuss pricing models that's another thread... Right?
You think if Bingie used this stuff even while deciding which buttons players will push in Destiny, they didn't ask those people to help them with monetization? One of the first events in Destiny 1 was exactly the same as the Apex one with the exact same monetization.
Dude, Destiny devs even had an article on how they studied Skinner box psychology specifically for their loot system. Sure, that's not monetised, but if they study psychology for loot they definitely do for monetisation. ESO is another big one that hired someone specifically for monetization boosts - they had previously worked on maximising profits from SWTOR's in game store. It definitely happens.
The harassment and the cause of it go hand in hand, are you telling that user he can't talk about it in this thread... why, exactly?
How dare developers show frustration with their "fans" who treat them like shit and troll/harass/disturb them constantly for not doing exactly what they want, when they want it?
Now, I'm not justifying the shitty MTX model of this game but that's not a reason to make developers' lives hell. At the end of the day it's their job and you can choose to just not play their game. I suppose a big reason of that poor MTX model is EA, but devs know that if they'll say anything their job is gone so what do you expect?
Now, I'm not justifying the shitty MTX model of this game but that's not a reason to make developers' lives hell. At the end of the day it's their job and you can choose to just not play their game. I suppose a big reason of that poor MTX model is EA, but devs know that if they'll say anything their job is gone so what do you expect?
The problem isn't just the price. The issue with these types of microtransactions is their predatory nature.
Yep, neither side is worthy of being defended here. Especially if they're happy to drop to the same level and trade insults.
I love that they say they remember a time when players were not asshats to developers
I remember a time when developers would make games and not a product that tries to rip you off after the fact with predatory microtransactions
That said, I don't think anyone should be attacking or harassing developers, and at the same time developers shouldn't be slagging off their players
You can make any point or criticise something without being an ass
I remember a time when developers would make games and not a product that tries to rip you off after the fact with predatory microtransactions
That said, I don't think anyone should be attacking or harassing developers, and at the same time developers shouldn't be slagging off their players
You can make any point or criticise something without being an ass
Majority of the time, the toxic behavior from gamers are not started by some kind of monetization practice. I've seen plenty of people in my time go off just because of a patch removing or changing something that needed balancing. Heck, remember when Jennifer Hepler left Bioware due to harassment and graphic death threats made to her and her family from gamers? What did she do to deserve that? She was just a writer for a game.
The thread is about what Respawn said in response to something. It's not like this situation came out of thin air. When they got complaints about the pricing model, then fixed it, and then call the people who complained freeloaders after the fact, you can't rip this out of context just because it suits you.
And again, what qualifies at harassment for you? A mass of negative tweets? Some people being impolite or you know, asshats? You automatically imply "worse". Who at Respawn received death threats over this, got doxxed or anything like that? Can you name one or did you just throw that "or worse" in to make differing opinions than yours look unreasonable? There's a lot of really toxic shit going on in this community no doubt. But these sweeping statements, trying to lump every form of criticsm together and treat every instance like the worst that ever happened to some dev in the past doesn't help.
It's the same situation as it was with that Pokemon thing. People spammed a hashtag to voice their disappointment. The some asshole went overboard and suddenly the hashtag and people sharing it were seen as harassers and toxic. Why?
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What an interesting contribution, anything else to add? I'm waiting to see a good defense of this pricing model, fire away.
If they are a freeloader(as are 80%+ of F2P players), they are not a consumer.
That is not a bad thing, but acting entitled when they didnt even spend anything is peak capital G gamer.
And they called people asshats for acting like asshats, you can criticise something without crude language or personal insults.
If you cant, then you are an asshat and much worse they didnt say.
Defending scumbag actions from angry fans is just as bad. Do I think gamers should be entitled assholes when they're asking for something? No. They should be ignored if their tone is shit. But not everyone that wants these changes is an asshole. They just want something in the game that costs too much for what it is.
And why would I side with a developer that thinks selling overpriced cosmetics is good for gaming? The whole "don't like it don't buy it" argument is pretty bad here, since some people buying it already gives developers the idea to do it again, and then other developers will start to get the same idea. It is bad for the industry, period. If it's up to me, I advise my friends to stop supporting the game and let it die.
Well it's good to see where you stand on predatory business models.
More often than not these days it absolutely is about monetization. Either that or some misogynists are doing their usual abhorrent thing.
Jenifer Hepler did obviously nothing to deserve what happened to her. I just don't think that lumping together people complaining about Respawn's monetization with people sending Jenifer Hepler death threats helps anybody, outside of people trying to shut up the ones complaining about Respawns monetization.
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User researchers do not make game design decisions as far as I know. Generally the designers make the decisions, and the user researchers validate the direction. So no, the user researchers at Bungie are not designing monetization.
I mean, have you played Destiny? They're not exactly trailblazing when it comes to making money.
Citation to who was hired for ESO/SWTOR? I'd love to see this.
Imagine thinking deathtreats, crude and abusive language are actually "criticism".
It's worth noting that if they can cite research on their MTX pricing and calling everyone else freeloaders (love you guys though), did their research not also tell them their original implantation of the skins in expensive lootboxes wasn't going to work? If not, how much faith can we put in the research.
It's just very odd all around as like almost every non sports EA lootbox controversy, much of this can be avoided by, you know, not starting with the greediest monetization to begin with. Only to have to walk it back and appeal to the community for sympathy because of the collateral damage of poeple down low in the totem pole getting harassed.
The developer is clearly addressing people that was personally attacking them or other developers from the team. There is no monetization model that will ever justify that kind of harassment. Gamers, as usual, like to make themselves the victim, and thought the developer was talking about literally everyone complaining about the monetization model. Even here it's very clear people are still conflating the two, believing the devs are upset at those who didn't like the lootboxes, instead of the people who harassed them.
Hey now. Thats just how gamers talk man.
Seriously though, I dont blame the man for saying what he did. Cant even imagine dealing with the shitshow he does on a daily basis.
Imagine lumping those all together in order to make a point instead of acknowledging that the shitty behavior is not the norm.
So wait, players are pissed about paying for cosmetic items? I don't play Apex, so I don't know if are skins purely cosmetic.
And how exactly is a f2p going to make money without microtransactions? From the comments I read on this, the prices are exhorbant; since that's the case, let the folks who can pay for it pay for it.
I thought the point of playing games is to have fun, and not collect digital trinkets (says the guy about to pay for more warframe slots) then get pissed at developers wanting to get paid for their work.
And how exactly is a f2p going to make money without microtransactions? From the comments I read on this, the prices are exhorbant; since that's the case, let the folks who can pay for it pay for it.
I thought the point of playing games is to have fun, and not collect digital trinkets (says the guy about to pay for more warframe slots) then get pissed at developers wanting to get paid for their work.
